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List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2024

List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2024 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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Seems like a similar situation to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of television programmes broadcast by Vietnam Television (VTV). Citations provide coverage of individual shows, but do not pretend to cover VTV dramas broadcast in 2024 as a set, as required by WP:LISTN. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television and Vietnam. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 21:19, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Delete This is a WP:NOTTVGUIDE WP:WALLEDGARDEN that pretty much reads more as a VTV WP:PROMO than a neutral article. Nate • (chatter) 22:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]
• Delete this year and every article in years before that. Every single VTV drama could be summarised on one article. We shouldn't keep the literal showing of dates and timeslot because Wikipedia is not a TV guide. Ajf773 (talk) 10:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Keep per Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Notability, which says: Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability.
  
  The list fulfills information and navigation purposes.

  The list passes Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Purposes of lists:

  1. It meets Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Information, which says, The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists.

     This structured list is a chronological ordering of all the Vietnam Television dramas that have been released in 2024. It is an annotated list that has the dramas' broadcast dates, title, number of episodes, producers, cast and crew, theme song(s), genre, and notes.

     An editor supporting deletion said, "Every single VTV drama could be summarised on one article." A list containing all VTV dramas can coexist with a list containing VTV dramas broadcast in 2024. The lists serve different purposes. To avoid article size issues, a list of all dramas would necessarily have to cover less information than a list covering a specific year. A list containing only the dramas broadcast in 2024 is useful to readers, giving them an annotated list of what was broadcast that year.

     • Additionally, Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Titles links to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (lists)#Long (split) list naming recommendations, which discusses the conventions for splitting a long list into multiple sub-articles. The long list here would be "List of VTV dramas", while the sub-articles are "List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2023", "List of VTV dramas broadcast in 2024", etc.

       The guideline gives the example, For example, TV show season lists are named in the form "Show title (season 1)", although the present guideline would have preferred "Show title: season 1" (the use of colons in the titles of works to indicate a subtitle, as in Star Trek: The Next Generation, is a likely reason for this variance).

       The split by year is similar here. The split by year is a valid spinout to ensure the main list does not get too long.

  2. It meets Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Navigation, which says, Lists which contain internally linked terms (i.e., wikilinks) serve, in aggregate, as natural tables of contents and indexes of Wikipedia. This is an index of all the Vietnam Television dramas that have been released in 2024.

     Vietnam Television (VTV) produces Vietnamese-language dramas. Most English Wikipedia editors do not speak Vietnamese. This is why Category:Vietnam Television original programming has only 10 articles on television series, while the Vietnamese Wikipedia's version of the category, vi:Category:Chương trình truyền hình trên VTV, has many more. Wikipedia:Systemic bias discusses this, noting that As a result of systemic bias, Wikipedia underrepresents the perspectives of people in the Global South, which includes Vietnam. Although these articles do not exist on the English Wikipedia, they exist on the Vietnamese Wikipedia. Taking the 2023 list as an example (vi:Danh sách phim VTV phát sóng năm 2023), there are detailed, well-sourced articles on 2023 VTV dramas such as vi:Không ngại cưới, chỉ cần một lý do and vi:Gia đình mình vui bất thình lình. There are not corresponding English Wikipedia articles because there are not enough English Wikipedia editors with the interest and Vietnamese-language skills to create them.

  
  WP:NOTTVGUIDE supports keeping this list because it is a "historically significant program list" from an influential broadcaster watched by millions in Vietnam.

  WP:NOTTVGUIDE says: Electronic program guides. An article on a broadcaster should not list upcoming events, current promotions, current schedules, format clocks, etc., although mention of major events, promotions or historically significant program lists and schedules may be acceptable.

  The policy says that historically significant program lists and schedules may be acceptable. 2023–24 United States network television schedule exists because it is a "historically significant program list".

  VTV and its dramas are highly influential in Vietnam, so a list of its dramas broadcast in 2024 is historically significant. Vietnam Television (VTV) is a national broadcaster that is watched by millions in Vietnam (source 1 and source 2). This book from Routledge underscores the historical significance by demonstrating that VTV dramas have been the subject of academic study and newspaper reviews:

  The success of imported series naturally urged Vietnamese television to make its own dramas. Producers were also prompted to focus on ordinary themes instead of repeating the old mantra of socialist heroism. Foreign soap operas thus enacted a new practice that barely existed in the previous history of Vietnamese television: competition. In 1994, three years after the success of The Rich Also Cry, the first Vietnamese television dramas were broadcast every weekend on a new program entitled Culture and Art on Sunday [Văn Nghệ Chủ Nhật]. One episode per week was an extremely low frequency for the genre of television drama but was already seen as a significant success of national television. A report in Lao Động newspaper in 1994 commented that the birth of Culture and Art on Sunday ‘demonstrated an audacious effort by VTV3 to produce quick and cheap dramas, given an extreme lack of money, technologies, and human resources’ (Tô, 1995). Major topics of Vietnamese television dramas in the late 1990s were the incompatibility between love and poverty, the desire of youngsters to escape obsolete social and cultural norms, or the bitter nostalgia of socialist veterans in market time. Just like soap operas anywhere else in the world, money emerged as the cause and solution of almost all problems. ‘Serving the audience’ also became a common concept in many reviews of television dramas that appeared abundantly in the culture section of many newspapers in the 1990s. Viewers were now treated as valued customers and ultimate judges, instead of merely passive receivers of statecontrolled messages. With the arrival of television dramas, the integration of market regulation and political duty became the defining dilemma of television in Vietnam.

  Cunard (talk) 11:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Comment But that doesn't address the concern of why these articles need to be broken out year-by-year. That's not normal practice for a television network list and is PROMO beyond a reasonable doubt since it singles out only one network's programming in a genre for a single year. I have no issue with a VTV programming article containing the network's full output; I have issues with it being presented in this manner. Nate • (chatter) 18:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates#Advantages of a list notes that lists can be "formatted in many different ways" and "can be embellished with annotations". These advantages are why breaking the articles out year-by-year has several advantages over a single list. A single list would be unable to present the information in the way the list currently does. A single list would be overly lengthy. A single list would hinder the reader's ability to easily find information.

  The year-by-year list presents on a single page all the dramas that aired that year, grouping the dramas by the channel they aired on and further chronologically sorting them by when they were broadcast. It allows readers to easily find out what dramas aired that year, what genres were the most prevalent that year, what those dramas were about, and who starred in those dramas that year. It would cumbersome for readers to find this information in a single list crammed with information about decades of VTV television programs from a dozen channels.

  Regarding I have no issue with a VTV programming article containing the network's full output, I would prefer a standalone list. But per Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion, merging this list into a VTV programming article would be far superior to deletion as it would retain this "historically significant program list".

  VTV is an influential broadcaster watched by millions in Vietnam. VTV dramas have been the subject of academic study and newspaper reviews. The policies and guidelines support retaining this list of VTV dramas. From WP:NOTTVGUIDE, historically significant program lists and schedules may be acceptable. From Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists#Information, The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists. From Wikipedia:Article size, a list or table should be kept as short as is feasible for its purpose and scope. From Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists#Appropriate topics for lists, be prepared to explain why you feel this list contributes to the state of human knowledge.

  Regarding the "PROMO" concern, the list is neutrally written. I see no violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. The policy says Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style, free of puffery. I find the list written in an "objective and unbiased style, free of puffery". Cunard (talk) 11:25, 22 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 23:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment on the talk pages of the articles, not here. If you agree with the proposed deletion, you don't have to do anything. If you think the article merits keeping, then remove the ((prod)) template and make an effort to improve the article so that it clearly meets the notability and verifiability criteria.