The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battle of Bautzen (1945)[edit]

Nominator(s): --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 12:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC) [reply]

Here we go again. The last round had two supports. To address last reviewer's final comment, which I missed before the discussion got archived, Polska Zbrojna and Zbigniew Wawer seem reliable. No, Wawer does not provide a list of most bloody Polish battles; but he is an expert on the subject and I see no reason to dispute his claim. In any case, his claim is attributed in text. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 12:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I would like one more source introduced into the first paragraph of teh "Background" section, which otherwise relies on a single source except for the last sentence. This has an effect on the coverage and neutrality, although it's hard to say exactly what. I find they are often unknown unknowns when I'm introducing sources. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything in that paragraph to fall under the WP:REDFLAG? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 20:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would not say so. However, I assume that is a statement to the effect that you believe that action is not required under the criteria. I would say that the same picniples applied to any significant run of sentences as an article: that a single source could be damaging to firstly, A1, "accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge", and A2 "comprehensive... and presents views fairly and without bias". We are presenting a selection of the facts, and it's important that this selection reflects the overall coverage. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hrmp. The last time I asked an editor here to provide more then one reference per paragraph I was told, in quite strong words, that this is too much. As I am not seeing any of my sources going into the level of detail of the one used, and as you yourself admit this is not a REDFLAG, I believe that my one-ref-per-sentence standard is satisfying MOS and other relevant criteria. If you'd be so kind as to provide me with a reference that would allow me to flesh this out, I'd of course consider using it, but I am currently convinced that this paragraph is sufficiently referenced. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 21:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not my area - and don't get me wrong, I'm not opposing over it. It is up to the other editor's discretion. My point was that the way other sources cover these events is likely to be slightly different, and it is very useful if the article reflected that. Just like in the rest of the article, where different sources are woven together to provide better coverage. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:29, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I've just realised that ref 10 might cover the whole paragraph? If it does, sorry, there's no problem. Else, might it also cover the preceding overview in some capacity? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you in principle. There is scope for more expansion, if more sources are found, but I guess we agree that it is not strictly necessary. As I wasn't the one who added ref 10, I am afraid I wouldn't know. You may want to ask the editor who did (StoneProphet?). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ref10 was acutally only added for the last sentence, although it probably could be partly applicated on some of the others too.StoneProphet (talk) 02:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent). In that case I remain neutral. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:30, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:

  1. Lead: In the absence of a WikiPage for the red-linked "Spremberg–Torgau Offensive" it would be good if there could be a few more words describing this offensive.
  1. Yes, it would. I am looking forward to somebody writing it :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Added link. Farawayman (talk) 01:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Lead: Third paragraph of lead raises what could be viewed as a number of contentious issues - although they are again mentioned in the body and are well cited there - these is no harm in repeating the citations for these statements - especially ".... modern Polish historians became much more critical of Świerczewski's command, blaming his incompetence and desire to capture Dresden for the near destruction of the Polish forces."
  1. I'd prefer not to clutter the lead, but I would not object to somebody adding it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Polish retreat: "He also sent his chief of staff, General Ivan Yefimovich Petrov, and his chief of operations, General Vladimir Ivanovich Kostylev, to look at the situation" - I think it needs to be made clear that Petrov was Koniev's CofS. Could be ambiguous to unfamiliar readers. (More specifically, as I understood the course of events - Koniev sent Petrov to try to recover the situation and launch a counter-attack while Kostylev was specifically sent to try to locate Świerczewski. However, Koniev only spent a few hours at the front and delegated all responsibility to Kostylev).
  1. He->Koniev fixed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Polish Retreat: One of the key actions taken by Kostylev was to bring the 2nd Air Army into the battle - perhaps this needs to be mentioned.
  1. Sounds good. Would you happen to have a ref for it? Seems mentioned in Erickson, added. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Other: I am not use if Schörner was actually in Command of the German forces because he had been promoted to Field Marshal in April. It is certain that Fritz-Hubert Gräser was involved as commander of 4th Panzer. Please check this - but then again, at this time the German command structure was in a total mess.
  1. Agreed. I looked into this a while ago: Talk:Battle_of_Bautzen_(1945)#German_Commander_at_the_Battle_of_Bautzen. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Other: For A Class, I would strongly recommend having the maps translated into English. Refer Wikipedia:Graphic Lab - I'm sure they could assist.
  1. Will ask for assistance right now. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Other: Remove " ? guns" from the "Strength" section of the infobox.
  1. Fixed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 23:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Well written and interesting article covering largely unknown events!

Farawayman (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: What is shown on the two polish maps of the battle? It should be explained for the non-polish-speaking people, otherwise it is quite useless. And to the other map: I think a map of 1937 Germany is not the best to show the location of the battleside. Best would be a map with the frontlines in April 1945. --Bomzibar (talk) 16:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Graphic_Lab/Map_workshop#Map_translation:_Battle_of_Bautzen_.281945.29. In progress. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 16:29, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A1
reliability of the author (maybe some books or journal articles?) - the first line of this page already establishes the author's, Zbigniew Wawer's, reliability. He is a military historian specializing in World War II, and author of several books [1] and member of the Polish Academy of Science [2]
I can also review the article for plagiarism (sic) (you mean copyvio)... but why would you expect that there would be some?VolunteerMarek 01:17, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the article and source for copyvios. There aren't any. Text is properly paraphrased.VolunteerMarek 17:13, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Polska Zbrojna for reliability. And as I mentioned last time, the most bloody claim is attributed to the historian, so one can take it or leave it upon examining the reliability, with both the historian and the magazine having English entries. Also, a lot of topics don't have significant coverage in English and require foreign sources, which is indeed quite allowed up to and including the FA (WP:NOENG). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 16:29, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I will add WP:NOENG says English language sources are preferred. Kirk (talk) 16:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But not required. Also, they often don't exist, as is the case here, AFAICT. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Support

Further copyediting is recommended if it's intended to take the article to FAC. Thank you for an enjoyable read about a battle I knew nothing about. Best, EyeSerenetalk 10:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've reducent reliance on Solak, who is indeed not very reliability. The cited sentence means that according to the source cited, Swierczewski was relieved of his command by Konev, for a brief period. Could you rewrite it so it is more clear? It seems clear enough to me. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've tweaked that sentence and struck both my objections per your replies. I've also done some copyediting of the Background section; the only substantive change is that I removed the note about Świerczewski's departure from Konev's plan having dire consequences, because that's looking ahead to the end of the article and therefore jumping out of the chronological order. If you want to put it back though, please do!
  • One more question for you: the article uses both "Polish Second Army" and "2nd Army". Which is preferred for consistency? EyeSerenetalk 09:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've changed all references to 2nd Polish Army to read Polish Second Army. There may be some additional consistency issues with the naming for other units (eg Soviet 52nd Army), but the only guiidance I can find at WP:MILMOS is Names should generally follow the stylistic conventions used by the service or country of origin. For example, while US and British usage has spelled-out numerals for army-level formations and Roman numerals for corps, editors writing about different countries should follow those countries' normal usages; thus, "3. Panzer Armee" becomes "3rd Panzer Army", and "18-ya Armiya" becomes "18th Army". You'd know better than I which version is preferred in Polish sources. Anyway, happy to support and thanks again for an interesting article. EyeSerenetalk 08:35, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference zw was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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