Addressed comments by Crisco 1492[edit]

  • I'm trying to summarize how he managed to become famous despite having to combat the poverty and obscurity of his origins. For some reason I'm not finding the right words. Right now I've changed it to "Born in 1923 near the capital city of Antananarivo to a poor rural family, Rakoto Frah surmounted the challenges posed by his underprivileged origins to become the most acclaimed 20th century performer of the sodina flute, one of the oldest traditional instruments on the island." Thoughts? Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm now using "play the sodina" and "perform on the sodina" throughout (this would also seem to make sense if it were another instrument, like piano: play the piano, perform on the piano, not perform piano or perform the piano) - good catch Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Broken up: His popularity declined in the 1970s but underwent a revival that began in the mid-1980s and continued throughout the remainder of his life. Over the course of his career he released..." Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The example above is the reason why I put the refs behind the piece of information they cite. With topics like this where the info has to be cobbled together from various sources, in order to keep it from being choppy I weave the pieces together in a way that putting the refs at the end would make it difficult to know what cite covers which piece of information. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've italicized it now in the lead on the first instance. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmmm... I think for the sake of clarity I should keep it, since there are many kinds of musical instruments played in this region. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I couldn't find info on how they died, most likely old age in combination with a common illness (life expectancy was pretty short in Madagascar back then). Added the year. Replaced "burgeoning artist" with "Rakoto". Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added content & source to explain 1958 was when the colonial status was dissolved. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • changed to "through the capital city of Antananarivo" Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • changed to "unofficial ambassador", to avert any potential confusion about this expression Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prefaced it with this: "Rakoto Frah released a series of albums and performed internationally throughout the 1990s." Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll link the pages once they've been written, since I understand we're not supposed to create redlinks for people. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to "Rakoto Frah's final album" Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Google gives 1.7 million hits for hira gasy and ~700K hits for hiragasy. The article should probably be renamed and moved, though I'll need to look into it a little further. Really the two terms are interchangeable depending on the context. Changed the other instance of hiragasy in the article to hira gasy Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed a couple of instances - let me know if you see any language that's particularly glaring. Most of the uses of "celebrate" literally do refer to celebrations (parties, commemorations etc). Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moved the first part to early life and the second part is now better integrated in the style and legacy section. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article doesn't describe how it was decided that he should be invited to be on the banknote (the process wasn't transparent). Still, in Madagascar, musicians often align themselves with politicians, and then officially fall out of favor when the politician is sidelined - but without completely losing their fan base. Once the political situation loosens up, the artist experiences a resurgence in open popularity. 1983 was when the Ratsiraka socialist revolution had clearly failed and the World Bank was forcing structural readjustment, so the regime was weakened and people were getting nostalgic about Tsiranana's first republic (which had been a much better time economically and socially) - maybe the head of the national mint saw his chance to restore honor to a figure who was widely respected as an artist and associated with a better time in the past. At that point Rakoto Frah was getting on in years and in Madagascar being an elder gets you even more respect, so the head of the mint might have felt it was only right to give Rakoto Frah his due. But since an analysis hasn't been printed and original research isn't allowed, we have to leave the question unanswered for now. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately the source doesn't specify and I haven't found examples elsewhere. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Couldn't find that either - not even in his obituary. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That kind of data isn't collected in Madagascar, and in general strictly traditional music doesn't move huge volumes in the music market, even within the small "world music" genre - that said, I haven't found any standout sales information for Madagascar's main overseas market, France. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately I haven't been able to find copies in the U.S. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rakoto Frah was born in a suburb and his mother was born in the capital city, so not the same place. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've edited a bit to make this a bit clearer. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly, there are a number of errors in that article, and there is some uncertainty about his birth year and date expressed by several sources, although I suspect they are all copying an earlier source that lacked precision, because Rakoto Frah himself gives his birth year as 1923 in the first reference. I've now moved that reference to right after the birth year so it's clear where the reference is coming from. There's also an issue around incorrectly spelling Malagasy names (i.e. the name of the town where he was born) - often times English or French speaking interviewers jot down what the name they hear (which doesn't bear much resemblance to how Malagasy is written), so it comes out in the written materials looking like a different person/place, as is the case in the birthplace given in that same interview. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rephrased to clarify that I'm talking about Rakoto Frah's parents and siblings. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Still not quite pleased with this one. Why not try Philibert Rabezoza, as (if Malagasies use similar naming customs to Westerners) the father would have been Rabezoza as well. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Using "Philibert" to keep with the rest of the paragraph. Lemurbaby (talk) 17:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The source doesn't specify the age and I'm not sure whether the source is suggesting a personal, cultural or legal standard. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps another term then, like "self-sufficient"? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:56, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel like that term has a different meaning. Since the source used "come of age", I feel like I should stick with that even if I can't provide more specificity. Lemurbaby (talk) 17:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The source doesn't specify, unfortunately Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps (somehow) clarify that they were a group. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:17, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In my experience, books printed in industrialized countries describing musicians in developing countries tend to focus more on those that have sold more albums internationally (no reflection of how popular the artist is at home) - and those that sell internationally are more often "fusion" artists that have a wider appeal to Western ears than highly traditional artists from countries with relatively little exposure in Western media and who perform on 2,000 year old instruments. I haven't seen any books written in Madagascar about local music. I've scoured the sources and I'm a bit surprised too (but not really) that there isn't more written about someone as monumentally important in Madagascar as Rakoto Frah Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even local Malagasy sources? Admittedly, when writing Chrisye I was helped enormously by the existence of a biography about him (in Indonesian, though). I did a quick look at WorldCat and saw nothing of the sort for Rakoto Frah, so I feel for you. However, I wonder if a lot of the information we're looking for may be in sources in Madagascar. Do any newspapers there have electronic databeses? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:17, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many of the sources I cite in the article are from the online databases for Malagasy newspapers. There are a couple more books I could cite, but the content they contain doesn't go beyond the content of the sources I've already included. Lemurbaby (talk) 17:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't been able to find any source that provides the information (and I looked hard). Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might want to just trim that column for now, as it's not "unknown" so much as "unknown to the writer". It's also not completely necessary for the article here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:17, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since there are only three pieces of info missing, give me a little time to try again to find this before we consider removing the column. Lemurbaby (talk) 17:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was able to find two out of the three missing pieces on music vendor websites. I'm not sure how to cite that since I believe we're not allowed to link to retailers' sales pages. The last one I really haven't been able to find. Since we have all but one I'm reluctant to remove the column. What if, instead of "unknown", I just put two dashes or something else? Lemurbaby (talk) 04:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for spending the time to review this in detail. I truly appreciate it. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've shortened it and reframed the content so it makes it clearer that this is basically a school set up in his honor, to continue his work. Let me know if this works better now. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed comments by Amakuru[edit]

Lead:

  • Good catch. I've added that to the lead. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I've edited that part to make it more explicit what was happening in the later period of his career. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early years:

  • That's true. Unfortunately I'm limited by the source, an interview with Rakoto Frah, who described his parents as "aged"... so I can't be more specific than that. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    OK then.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reason wasn't given in the source, and neither was the specification of which name, although the phrasing implies the name of his brother was called Rakoto; do you have an idea on how I could rephrase that to make it clearer? Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm, not really. I've looked at the source and it's very unclear, as you say. The source seems to suggest that he "inherited" the stage name Rakoto, although it could even be that the brother was not actually called that himself, just that he was somehow the inspiration for it. Probably fine to leave it as it is anyway.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this case I have to disagree, as it is meant in the correct sense. The instrument is an icon of Madagascar; it's the national instrument. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. I think I've heard people use the word iconic so much as a kind of vague way of adding emphasis to something that I forgot it has a literal meaning - an icon...  — Amakuru (talk) 22:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

National symbol:

  • The source doesn't specify, unfortunately. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is also not explained in the sources - and the word Frah doesn't appear to be native to the Malagasy language (based on my admittedly limited personal knowledge of the language). Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're right, thanks for catching that. I've rephrased this now. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's true. I've changed it to more accurately capture the information in the source, which solves this problem. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Better now, although there still seems to be something slightly odd about the sentence "Because of his success in this event, Rakoto Frah is among the first musicians to perform traditional Malagasy music at music festivals and concerts outside of Madagascar" - at first I was going to suggest changing "is" to "was" but even then it didn't quite scan. How about tacking this onto the next sentence that details the performances, for example:
    Among the 80 competitors, hailing from a variety of countries, Rakoto Frah's troupe won the gold medal. This success was followed by performances in Japan, England, the United States, India, Germany, China, Norway, Finland, Australia and France, making Frah one of the first musicians to perform traditional Malagasy music at music festivals and concerts outside of Madagascar. At these performances, he was often accompanied by supporting musicians under the group name Orchestre Nationale.
     — Amakuru (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ben Mandelson is wikilinked, but there is currently no article for Roger Armstrong. I've added that they are producers, since that's the only thing I can say about both with certainty. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    That's fine, no more needed than that. I tend to think that wikilinks are great but a small amount of context should be available within the article itself. In this case I printed the article out and read it on the train so there was no possibility of following the wikilink!  — Amakuru (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again sources don't specify, though I'd imagine it would involve him being on the Malagasy 200 franc note and probable word of mouth among musicians. Since that's just guessing, I can't elaborate in the article. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    OK.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a typical problem for musicians in developing countries, and this question also came up in the Jaojoby FAC. The sources don't explain it, but I know from discussing the issue with the musicians themselves that musicians really don't get that much money from each album sold overseas, and world music is never enough of a hot seller internationally to earn the musicians loads of money. Tours overseas often barely break even, again because of the expense of touring coupled with relatively limited returns to the artists, whether because of small shows or being one small part of a larger festival where the profits are split among many. Local sales don't wind up being a source of income either because of bootlegging, so artists make most of their money from local gigs, and wind up having to domestically tour and perform pretty much constantly as a result. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're right - I've added an explanation in the body now. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Style and legacy:

  • That's how the source characterizes it (translated from the French "humaine") - but I suppose "kindness" is a close synonym that looks more natural. Let me try that instead. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Works for me.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's tough since the exchange rates fluctuate... and before when I tried putting in some language about equivalencies it was flagged as not being indicative of inflation. I think I'd better just leave this for now and hope the readers get a sense that the increase is significant by comparing 200 and 100,000 - even allowing for inflation of some kind. But FYI 100,000 ariary is about $45, but I can't tell you how much 200 was worth back in 1983. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah OK - to be honest I didn't immediately connect the 100,000 with its face value of 200, I assumed it was meant to be just an absolute statement of its value. Would it maybe help to have a comment to that effect, e.g. "over 500 times its face value" or similar?  — Amakuru (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before I had "over 500 times its original value" and that's when the concern about inflation came up. But "face value" takes care of that issue. I'll add that piece back in. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

General:

  • It's italicized on the first use only in the lead, body and photo captions. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Is that some kind of convention that's commonly used? I haven't heard of it which is why it looked like there was a lack of consistency. Looking at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting#Foreign_terms it doesn't specifically say that subsequent uses of a foreign term within an article should not be italicised, although it does use the phrase "isolated foreign words" which maybe these aren't, since they occur multiple times.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's the convention I've applied in all my FA articles on Madagascar, probably due to some feedback I got on early FAs or GAs when I first started doing this some years back. It's hard to know where to draw the line between "isolated" and non-isolated foreign words, so the rule of thumb I was taught is, if it's used once, italicize it, but if it's used again, don't. That's also the standard used in certain academic writing styles - italicizing is just a tool to point out to the reader that the word is indeed foreign and probably unfamiliar, but from that point on in the document - in principle - it is no longer unfamiliar and so shouldn't/doesn't need to be italicized.Lemurbaby (talk) 05:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Alright then!  — Amakuru (talk) 12:43, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've now made it italicized on the first use only in the lead and body. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed, this works better with some reorganization. I've moved that content into the legacy section, which I've now split off from the style section. What do you think - does this work better? Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    That's great. Reads a lot more logically now.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know, I've been trying to find anything about that - how many children, how many grandchildren, when he was married etc but that information isn't contained in any of the sources - not even his obituary! And I've really been scouring. but to no avail. I'll keep an eye out for it though. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    OK.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's my lot for now. But the above minor points aside, it's definitely a great article and I really enjoyed reading it on my way home from work yesterday. Thanks!  — Amakuru (talk) 17:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks again for taking the time to review! I think I've responded to all your points here. Let me know if there's more that needs tweaking. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes - I do it in order to keep it clear which source provides which piece of information. I follow that same convention in all my articles. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I won't argue with it then if it's worked for you in the past!  — Amakuru (talk) 12:43, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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