Manual of Style

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 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:So Help Me Todd § Co-starring actors again. Editors are still needed to weigh in on this in order to reach a consensus. This is about co-starring actors. — YoungForever^(talk) 14:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates § List or article. A discussion on whether season pages qualify as lists or articles for Featured content purposes. TheDoctorWho (talk) 04:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a topic that's been subject to a fair bit of discussion at MOSFILM (for example here), with (paraphrasing) a widespread view that some articles over-rely upon review aggregators, which inexperienced (and even some regular) editors use - often formulaically - as an easy substitute for the harder work of reading, citing, quoting and summarising a balanced mix of individual reviews.

As a consequence MOSFILM has wording that is tighter than we have on TV, including provisions such as "Describing a film with superlatives such as 'critically acclaimed' or 'box-office bomb' is loaded language and an exceptional claim that must be attributed to multiple high-quality sources" and in relation to RT and MC specifically: "the use of prevalent summary styles or templates is not required", and "To avoid giving these sites undue weight in such circumstances, consider whether it is best to place the data lower in the section". Both MOSFILM and MOSTV are clear that the aggregators are citable (subject to some provisos regarding sample size and regarding older and non-English productions) for "data about the ratio of positive to negative reviews" (my bold).

My proposal would be that we adopt similar, fuller, wording here at MOSTV.

A related issue is the use of the phrase "universal acclaim", which is commonly found in articles both as a general descriptor and as a quote from Metacritic, in the latter case often preceded by words in editorial voice such as "indicating". Self-evidently, "universally acclaimed" is a greater superlative than "critically acclaimed", and it is highly unlikely that a film or TV show would be acclaimed by absolutely every review, which would in any case be impossible to establish by citation. That a third party might describe a show as universally acclaimed is, I accept, potentially quotable, but is puff nevertheless. Metacritic presents a particular difficulty, since it uses this phrase for films or shows where the MC score is just 81%. With a score of 81% it is very likely that there are negative reviews (and certainly some that are not positive) and therefore the reality, whatever MC might say, is that such a show has not been universally acclaimed. Placing "indicating" in editorial voice before such a descriptor is simply misleading, since that score doesn't indicate anything of the sort. Some articles are more careful, and use phrases such as "Metacritic suggests..." or "Metacritic claims..." or "according to Metacritic this indicates", all of which are much better in terms of accuracy, but nevertheless remain presentations of a puff descriptor that doesn't add any actual data to the article (being merely an opinion) - which according to our MOS is the purpose for which the aggregators are supposed to be restricted.

My further proposal would be that we either explicitly restrict the use of MC strictly to the data (being the score), and not the supplementary descriptor, or alternatively we advise that where the MC descriptor is used, editors should avoid wording in editorial voice that gives the impression of confirming the MC opinion. Personally I would like to see the phrase "univeral(ly) acclaim(ed)" omitted altogether, or used with great caution and only where the review scores are exceptionally high, ideally 100%. MapReader (talk) 07:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TV seems to have fewer issues with exceptional claims being made in the lead, e.g. fewer discussions, so could just refer to policy like WP:EXCEPTIONAL. To be clear, your quote about "undue weight in such circumstances" is about "films released before the websites existed". Film has more issues with aggregators being used retrospectively than TV does so more necessary there, doesn't seem like a problem for TV unless you have any examples? MOS:FILMCRITICS doesn't say anything about sample size and non-English productions?

Strongly oppose changing the standard practice across film TV videogames and music projects regarding Metacritic. "Indicating" in same sentence as the Metacritic data, and with quotation marks around the words like "universal acclaim" seems sufficient to be clear we're quoting Metacritic and not using WP voice. The well-known and reliable source Metacritic decides what the bands are, our opinion isn't important. Alternatives to "indicating" like you list are unnecessarily less concise. Including the text helps provide context to readers less aware of the aggregators. Previous discussion on this at User talk:MapReader#Metacritic text if anyone wants to read that. Indagate (talk) 09:21, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see an issue with aligning the wording here with what MOSFILM says. One big difference that we may want to note is that the number of reviews aggregated is often way less for TV shows/seasons/episodes. - adamstom97 (talk) 10:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that “indicating” is commonly, but wrongly, put in editorial voice, outside of the quotation. It is Metacritic that says a rating of 81% indicates ‘universal acclaim’, not Wikipedia. And very clearly if 19% of the reviews were neutral or negative, the acclaim was not universal. MapReader (talk) 19:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, it seems clear enough that even with indicating out of the quote marks, that's we're saying Metacritic says the quote based on previous part of sentence and quotation marks. Whether 19% is universal is debatable but irrelevant for whether to include as a quote because that's what the source says. Indagate (talk) 19:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is usually clear that the "indicating" is according to Metacritic's own metrics. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I work in public service news where we have to be very attuned to any editorialising, however implicit it may be, and to avoid adopting value systems of any sort which do not align with our mission, however unconsciously. For what it's worth, in my view MapReader makes a valid point. WP at its best embodies public service values - I hope that's the intent. If not, disregard this comment. Aggregator sites are commercial, not academic or critical, and, I'd suggest, are best used judiciously. Hyperbole reduces authority, even when simply quoted. "Universal acclaim" for a rating of 81% is hyperbole. A firm policy in this regard - even where such sites are used less frequently, as in TV - strikes me as sound judgment. Anyways, I think it's great you all are so invested and engage passionately on this issue. Jack C (talk) 15:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Essentially the same discussion is concurrently happening at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film#Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic to support "positive", "mixed", "negative". These discussions need to come to the same general conclusion. For my part, I will say that WP using terms like "bomb", "blockbuster", "acclaimed" (much less "universal acclaim"!), "iconic", "classic", etc., is highly inappropriate (MOS:WTW, WP:NPOV, MOS:TONE, WP:NOT#SOAPBOX, etc.). In some unusual cases we could possibly use such a term, but only if it meets the WP:EXTRAORDINARY sourcing criteria; i.e., it would need to be something that is agreed upon among a strong preponderance of the major media critics who have addressed the work, not just found as peacock (or condemnatory) "purple prose" found in some reviewer's comment, nor just applied across an enormous swath of works by the misleadingly simplistic and exaggeratory ratings labelling of review aggregators. What's happening here in large part is a confusion between "acclaim" (or whatever) as a reliably sourceable critical-assessment label, a fact we can research and source (like we do with other questionable labeling, e.g. "freedom fighters" vs. "terrorists", etc.), on the one hand; but on the other, use of terms like "acclaim" as buzzwords in the iffy rating schemata of a couple of websites like MetaCritic and Rotten Tomatoes. By way of analogy, if I decide to rate things I like as "dog" or "cat" for "bad" or "good" because I like cats better, it doesn't mean that anything I rate as "cat" is actually, in fact, a cat. This is a general semantics error, basically, of confusing a label in one domain for an actual fact in another domain simply because they are represented by the same text string ("acclaim" or "cat").  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: The key benefit of Metacritic is to report the set of reviews and how it is broken down. If that is done upfront, saying how many were positive, mixed, or negative, I don't have much of a problem with explicitly in-text attribution of "universal acclaim". If we see 30 positive reviews and 2 mixed, and Metacritic says "universal acclaim", we know that their label is hyperbolic. I don't object to paraphrasing it, though, like saying "widely praised" or "highly regarded" or "much lauded". I tend to do that anyway in the lead section with the article body having the specific label that Metacritic applied to the set of reviews. If we want to do that in both the body and the lead, I would be fine with it. Plus, with Rotten Tomatoes (and its unfortunately simplistic positive-or-negative metric) also in play, that coverage also shows X negative reviews compared to Y positive reviews. To highlight an example, Gravity has 49 reviews on Metacritic, all positive, where it has 362 reviews on Rotten Tomatoes with 16 being negative. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Agree with Jack C and SMcCandlish for the most part. Generally, we want to avoid the appearance of unnecessarily elevating labels and ratings, even when they are not technically being claimed in Wikipedia voice. We don't spend any real estate discussing or explaining RT's "fresh" vs "rotten", so I never quite understood why we were so quick to quote the categorical labels on MC. Perhaps we convinced ourselves that RT's were WP:JARGON and therefore MC's were more acceptable? Although it may seem innocuous to quote MC's labels, without proper context and explanation, they could be interpreted by the average non-editor as, "Hey, this film received universal acclaim, wow!" More care should probably be taken here, and certainly more discussion about it can't hurt.
  Another thing to consider are TV shows that span multiple seasons. I don't frequent this realm too often, but I've often noticed that RT gathers a bulk of its reviews for the 1st season and sometimes after only the pilot/premiere episode. It's quite possible that opinions change later in the show's run, but this is not generally reflected in the scores cited early on. Correct me if I'm wrong. --GoneIn60 (talk) 15:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Also worth remembering that our current MoS says the aggregators "….are citable for data pertaining to the ratio of positive to negative reviews". Yet so many TV (and film) articles cite not only the data, but also Metacritic’s opinion, which isn’t data at all. It’s bad enough that it’s mentioned; worse that the customary standard wording ("indicating", in editorial voice) implies that WP is accepting MC’s subjective, and frequently inaccurate, classification. MapReader (talk) 19:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Summary & proposals: There are useful comments in this discussion, and perhaps I can try and summarise into a proposal:

A) The suggestion that we add into MOSTV the additional wording from FILM - as quoted in italics in my opening post above - appears uncontroversial?

B) I would propose adding "universal acclaim" into the examples of discouraged "superlatives" within the first of the additions: "universal acclaim" is clearly more superlative than "critically acclaimed", and its inclusion would clarify that the term shouldn't be used in editorial voice without support from multiple citations.

C) My preference would then be for an additional provision, to be added after the existing statement that the aggregators should be used for data about the ratio of positive to negative reviews: "The Metacritic 'indications' should not be used, as these represent a subjective categorization rather than data." (proposal C1) This follows on logically from the stress within both TV and FILM that the aggregators' purpose is to provide data about the balance of reviews. However, recognising that this may be a change greater than some editors might prefer, as an alternative (proposal C2) I would suggest "Where Metacritic indications are quoted, it should be made clear that these are Metacritic's view and not the article's, and the term "universal acclaim" should only be included where supported by an MC score of 100%". MapReader (talk) 08:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a lot of overlap between MOS:FILM and MOS:TV, given the similarities between the two mediums. I think it's generally understood that the guidance on MOS:FILM tends to apply to MOS:TV as well, and vice versa. We don't necessarily need to duplicate the wording on both pages, but I wouldn't oppose doing so if editors desire. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion at FILM did conclude that too many editors over-rely on the aggregators, and taking the same stance at TV does appear sensible. And would be supported by the above discussion, as far as it goes. But views from other media-article editors would be helpful to establish whether we have a broadly-based consensus? MapReader (talk) 19:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will go ahead and make changes A and B. Some discussion of the remaining proposal would be helpful:

• Proposal C1: "The Metacritic 'indications' should not be used, as these represent a subjective categorization rather than data.", or
• Proposal C2: "Where Metacritic indications are quoted, it should be made clear that these are Metacritic's view and not the article's, and the term 'universal acclaim' should only be included where supported by an MC score of 100%" MapReader (talk) 07:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah agreed with A and B, consistent with Film project, doesn't seem as necessary for TV but no harm. C1, Metacritic indications aren't subjective because based on boundaries, help describe the data for people less aware. C2, that's fair but words like "indicating" is good enough, doesn't need to be overly explicit. We shouldn't omit the description based on our personal opinion on what constitutes universal acclaim, we should either include the description or not, shouldn't change depending on what it is. Indagate (talk) 09:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’d respond that MC is being subjective in categorising situations where 81% of reviews are positive as ‘universal acclaim’, because that obviously leaves up to 19% of reviews that were not, and so by any objective standard the acclaim cannot legitimately be described as ‘universal’. MapReader (talk) 13:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a significant difference, IMO, between "indicating universal acclaim" and "categorized the score as universal acclaim". The latter provides context and continues to show that this is Metacritic's rating system, while the former can cause confusion as to whom is doing the indication. Is that in Wikipedia voice or is that an indication being done by Metacritic? It is a valid point, despite some editors here saying they are not confused by it. --GoneIn60 (talk) 13:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion seems to have dried up, but with a consensus that articles should avoid using superlatives and be clear about attribution where they are quoted. I will therefore add to the MoS the first part of C2, which reflect consensus, viz: “ Where Metacritic indications are quoted, it should be made clear that these are Metacritic's view and not the article's”. It remains my view that there is a case for going further and advising against the use of a term like “universal acclaim”, particularly where it is obviously inaccurate according to the data being cited. More views always welcome… MapReader (talk) 06:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't think there's strong enough consensus about changing the Metacritic indications, MoS should have strong consensus. Should be consistent across projects like Film and TV too. Indagate (talk) 07:20, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Changes should not be made to an MoS based on if the discussion seems to have dried up. That's not a consensus. -- Alex_21 _TALK 08:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree as well. Despite some generally good discussion here, I don't think we can say with any high degree of confidence there is a consensus to make any changes at this stage. I think there is general agreement that MC's indications should be properly attributed, but there is disagreement over what that means exactly. As a result, adding the proposed text to the MoS won't change the current behavior in articles.

MapReader, you may want to consider creating a new section (or subsection) that focuses only on this aspect: proper in-text attribution for Metacritic's rating system. If that continues to go nowhere, consider an RfC to solicit outside opinion. The concern is mainly a grammatical one that any editor outside of the WikiProjects can easily weigh in on. My 2¢ --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:14, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion drying up is the reason for drawing it to some sort of conclusion; the consensus for the modest changes made so far is above in the comments from Jack C (talk · contribs), SMcCandlish (talk · contribs), Erik (talk · contribs) and GoneIn60 (talk · contribs), in addition to my own. The suggestion that articles should make clear what’s editorial and what’s third party opinion shouldn’t be controversial. The remaining element of my proposal concerns the use of “universal acclaim” by MC when 15% of critical reviews can be negative; it remains my view that this is inappropriate and will start a separate discussion to seek views. MapReader (talk) 12:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, let's say you add the first part of C2 as you stated. What will that accomplish? Indagate and adamstom97 have already stated that they believe indicating "universal acclaim" complies, because "universal acclaim" is in quotes. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 15:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television#Early international release looking for some advice on how to handle this situation, posting here in case anyone not following that page has thoughts. - adamstom97 (talk) 11:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am proposing a rewrite of MOS:TVIMAGE per the WP:NFCC, replacing the recommended infobox image for main series articles from a poster/intertitle shot with the series logo or a free screenshot:

Image

Depending on the article in question, a different image should be used in the infobox, based on non-free content criteria:

• For a main article, use the series logo or a freely-licensed still from the show itself. Per WP:NFCC#3b, non-free posters and intertitle shots from the series may not be used in the infobox, unless the poster or intertitle shot is itself the subject of commentary.
  • For example, a screenshot of the logo of The Simpsons in its opening sequence may not be used in the infobox of the series article, as a render of the series logo provides sufficient identification. However, said screenshot is appropriate for use in The Simpsons opening sequence, as it is the main subject of the article.

Feel free to suggest changes to this text. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 00:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This would be a pretty major change and impact a lot of articles. The point of the image in the infobox is to aid with identification of the topic, not just to support commentary in the article. Plus, these logo renders that often pop-up as free alternatives appear to be photoshopped or completely fabricated by random people and posted online. I think it is dubious to claim that these are genuinely free alternatives, and preferring them over a screenshot of the official on-screen logo has always seemed inappropriate to me. - adamstom97 (talk) 12:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For several days now, the average critics reviews rating (example: 7.00 out of 10) has not been available for TV shows. I've searched but have not found information on whether the score details for TV has been removed permanently or temporarily. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 23:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This issue came up in March, so if it's still around it's probably here to stay. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Archive 38#Rotten Tomatoes: Are average scores no longer visible? RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears the average score is now visible again for TV shows. Drovethrughosts (talk) 12:01, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:The Penguin (TV series) § Illogical and inconsistent arguments. This is a dispute about listing multiple directors in the infobox. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now, now, be clear about what is really going on. It is only being argued that multiple directors can be listed for limited series and miniseries, not for regular TV series. That is the point here and that is how it has always been done according to the overwhelming majority of the articles I've seen. Nicholas0 (talk) 07:02, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that the discussion title should also reflect the actual topic of what's being discussed; "Illogical and inconsistent arguments" does not do this, hence the need for further explanation of the discussion's topic each time. -- Alex_21 _TALK 07:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But that is what the discussion is about. I have no opinion on whether or not directors should be listed in the infobox. I am simply pointing out that editors are using illogical and inconsistent arguments without looking at evidence. That is the real issue and no one has yet addressed this. Nicholas0 (talk) 07:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox television § Alternatives to writer and director parameters. For a discussion on the possibility of adding a showrunner parameter to television-related infoboxes and limiting the use of writer and director parameters. TheDoctorWho (talk) 04:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]