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I have noticed this a few times where what I consider are decent quality articles getting repeatedly rejected. I know that reviewers are not supposed to take previous reviews into consideration when reviewing a new article, but it's hard to deny that seeing say 5 rejections must surely subconsciously or consciously affect the review of a new draft submission.

Often the initial article definitely had reason to be rejected, but over time improvements get made and in my opinion become fairly good, well written and sourced, but I feel as if the previous rejections often influence or bias the latest AfC submission. I don't want to list examples, but has anyone else had this experience, if so, what are some alternatives to AfC - that perhaps works like an AfD where there is more community consensus. Mr Vili talk 12:06, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you mean declined NOT rejected, drafts are only rejected once, after which they are not considered again, when reviewing I always check to see if previous decline reasons have been addressed, if improvements have been made I will accept. Theroadislong (talk) 12:10, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr vili: I think you should list examples, otherwise this is just ranting.

Perhaps you could also enlighten us on what makes you more qualified than a reviewer to judge what is "decent quality"? I'm not for a moment suggesting that isn't possible, just wondering why you feel a number of reviewers are all wrong, and you alone are right.

Also, a technical point: it is highly unlikely that a draft gets "repeatedly rejected", because rejection is meant to be the end of the road. You probably mean repeatedly declined. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 12:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You say you don't wish to give a specific example of a draft that has been repeatedly and incorrectly declined, but it is difficult to judge such a claim without one. AFC is almost always a voluntary process(except in cases of things like topic bans/COI). If an editor in good faith feels that the numerous, more experienced reviewers have gotten it wrong(not impossible, but seems unlikely), they should move the draft themselves and roll the dice that it won't be nominated for AfD or other forms of deletion. 331dot (talk) 12:29, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@331dot @DoubleGrazing Was probably this version of Draft:Tristan Tate. It was moved into mainspace anyway after Mr vili took me to dispute resolution for declining it. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you are confident a draft should be accepted, just accept it (if you're an AFC reviewer) or move it to mainspace (if you're not an AFC reviewer). Draftspace is optional. However I hope you are well-calibrated to the norms of AFD if you are accepting marginal drafts, else a bunch of drafts you accept may end up getting deleted at AFD. There is probably a reason that these drafts are getting declined, and that reason might not be "AFC is broken/biased". I would encourage you to post examples if you want to discuss this in more detail. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is likely the result of me declining Draft:Tristan Tate (which was dragged into mainspace anyway after he took me to dispute resolution for declining the draft. Thanks!). Even if it was unrelated to notability, that article cited several unreliable sources and bringing it to mainspace forced other editors to clean it up for you. BLPs especially are a contentious topic and need to cite only reliable sources. That draft did not. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The AFD related to that Tristan Tate article (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tristan Tate (2nd nomination)) is quite messy. There are several newer editors who aren't familiar with the nuances of WP:GNG claiming that various non-GNG sources are GNG. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And then accusing me of bludgeoning for pointing it out! Argh. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

good heavens. this whole discussion is a mess, and I don't want to be part of it. Speaking for us all. -- asilvering (talk) 11:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr vili I think I get what you mean. Personally, I saw that Dexerto was in the draftspace and had been declined a couple times due to not great sourcing. Probably discouraged the original creator. I improved it myself, added some WP:RELIABLE sources here and there and decided to move it to the main space. Notability was met for me. The fact that Dexerto is used as a source in many articles on Wikipedia also affirmed notability.

I think Tristan Tate should be kept, so I'm going to put in my two cents there. There is some iffy sourcing there though so I think cleanup is in place. TLA^tlak 03:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@I'm tla I don't want to bludgeon the discussion so I'm asking you here, but are you aware of WP:BLPCRIME and WP:PERPETRATOR? That's the secondary reason I declined the draft. While there are reliable sources that discuss him, it's all in reference to his and his brother's criminal case (almost exclusively his brother) and generally from a policy POV it is considered a very bad idea to make an article on a living person known for committing a crime when they have not been convicted yet. The sourcing exclusively backs up the crime conviction notability, even ignoring the fact that it's a duplicate of his brother info wise. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, we'll have to be careful. But Tristan Tate is certainly not known only in connection with a criminal event or trial. I'm sure there are other reliable sources but requires a deep dig-up that don't hone in on the criminal case. TLA^tlak 03:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@I'm tla As far as I can see, no reliable ones discuss him outside of the court case, unlike his brother. A lot of sources have been presented to try to justify it and none have been reliable. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't say completely non-reliable. Yeah there's a bunch of rando blogs and tabloid stuff, but from a quick search I see stuff from Hindustan Times and Dexerto outside of the criminal cases. These are WP:MREL, but they still somewhat contribute. TLA^tlak 04:08, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can't really partially contribute to notability. It's either there or it isn't. PARAKANYAA (talk) 16:03, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I just want to mention, this was not specifically about Tristan Tate, I have noticed it in a few other articles in the past but anyways I didn't want to distract this discussion with the controversial nature of Tristan Tate. I was merely curious as to whether others have also experienced this issue. Mr Vili talk 03:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr vili Your statement makes sense. I think AfC reviewers wouldn't want to take a big risk accepting a possibly non-notable subject, especially BLPs. TLA^tlak 04:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the context of BLPs I think it certainly makes sense to be a bit more cautious, which to me also highlights the need for a way to gain greater community consensus to avoid the issue of being overly cautious and just flat out rejecting an article which would otherwise be considered notable. Mr Vili talk 04:17, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A dedicated additional process like that would be nice, but it would probably very annoying and just make it all complicated. Also I think where we are discuss right now is a fine place to discuss on-the-verge drafts. I don't think the issue is that serious either, if a topic is notable it's most likely that one day an editor will come across, ensure it's properly cited, and get it accepted. TLA^tlak 04:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The way to gain community consensus is usually AfD. By itself, that wouldn't be a problem: AfC reviewers are encouraged (I hope) to accept borderline drafts even if they run the risk of being nominated for deletion, as this provides a way to get a large number of eyes on a new article and source editor opinions. However, this can be a stressful process sometimes for both the reviewer and submitter, which is why some reviewers might hesitate to accept some drafts without more solid groundwork. I'm not opinionated one way or another in this discussion, just sharing my perspective on why you may be seeing what you're seeing. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@I'm tla @TechnoSquirrel69 Perhaps in the AfC process, there should be an "official" mechanism in the workflow for an experienced editor (maybe uninvolved or 100+ edits) to nominate a declined request for dispute, perhaps within here. I may possibly be over-complicating it, but I much prefer the AfD process to gain community consensus over singular reviewers which may or may not have their own biases, or be influenced by previously declined reviews - anyways just an opinion Mr Vili talk 05:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can already see UPE editors would want to take advantage of a process like that. Maybe something like 250+ edits could be okay. I wouldn't mind a process like that, though, you could take it to WP:Village pump (idea lab)? TLA^tlak 05:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not to shoot down your ideas out of hand, but I'm not immediately seeing the need for a new discussion venue in this case. As you mentioned, AfD is an option, as is asking at the help desk or the Teahouse. That's about it for official processes (I believe), but reviewers will often discuss possibly contentious or difficult reviews on this talk page or in the NPP Discord server. What additional benefit or opportunity for discussion would be provided with a new venue? —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It already exists. WP:DRAFTOBJECT. You can just move it to mainspace. Draftspace is optional and anyone (within reason) can switch a draft to mainspace and the AFD process at any time. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding to what Novem Linguae said, there's also an in-AfC process at WP:AFCHD. -- asilvering (talk) 11:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr vili: Also, if we're discussing the relationship of AfC reviewers to demonstrating notability, there was also a recent discussion at § Ettrick and Northern that you might be interested in. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see a draft that has been declined a few times already it's either a) an open-shut obvious fail being repeatedly resubmitted by an editor who doesn't understand or doesn't care about the feedback or b) something an editor has been putting a lot of effort into, so previous declines are barely relevant because they were stamped on a draft that was so significantly different from the one I then end up reviewing. Rarely anything in the middle. If your article has 5 declines on it and you're still resubmitting, it's probably the former, sorry. You can always start a thread at WP:AFCHD if you want to object. -- asilvering (talk) 11:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To make a long story short, IMO in practice, on average, passing AFC is a higher standard than passing NPP/AFD. I've done a lot of NPP and later a small amount of AFC review. When starting the latter it was explained that theoretically, the criteria for passing AFC is having a good chance at passing AFD. In reality, the criteria for passing at NPP/AFD is "should this topic have an article?" (and 95% of the time that is "Does the topic pass wp:notability?") and not other article quality issues. I think that the de facto requirements for passing AFC is that the article does not have any other significant quality issues. I think that this is simply human nature.....what reviewer is going to want to put their stamp of approval on an article which has significant problems even if it would pass NPP/AFD? I'm not implying that this is good or bad, I'm just noting it and noting that I think that this phenomena is relevant to some of the types of discussions that often come up. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know I said this when you made similar comments before, but for anyone reading this, if you see this happening - ie, someone declining an article that would pass NPP/AfD - please bring it up with the reviewer, because that should not be happening. -- asilvering (talk) 15:55, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I saw a rejected draft today that 22 references, and most of them looked reasonable. Resubmitted it because that's just silly to reject (didn't have time to formally do a full review). Primefac (talk) 19:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

and I just accepted it. Theroadislong (talk) 19:52, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it's a bit ingrained. Often when people talk about "article improvement before it's ready for mainspace" (vs. the narrower topic of just including references to establish wp:notability) they are often talking about article quality issues which would not be a cause for rejection at NPP/AFD. Also, it's human nature to be cautious about passing something, doubly so if they are concerned that someone might critique them for passing an edge case article which would be 90% sure of passing AFD (and NPP) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, and the way to deal with that is to bring it up with the reviewer, because that should not be happening. I'm not saying you have to go yell at them. It's perfectly fine to have sympathy. But we shouldn't be sitting on our hands saying "alas, it's just human nature to decline drafts without good reason" and acting as though there is nothing to be done. Reviewers who decline drafts incorrectly aren't going to get any better at it if no one tells them they've messed up. -- asilvering (talk) 21:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at a bunch of the ones at the help desk. There's another common situation, perhaps the most common one there. That is where the actual problem is wp:notability and a wp:ver type rejection reason is given. Then the author really doesn't understand what the problem is and exactly what needs to be done to fix it, or why fixing it will be impossible if the needed GNG sources don't exist. I might try helping a bit on some of those at the help desk to do what you say and to get more of an understanding. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Some of the decline template reasons aren't that great – either vague or some editors may not use the appropriate one. It might be worth striking up more specific decline reason templates for AfC revewiers too?

I think declining can also have something to do with potential WP:COI in regards to WP:BLP and WP:CORP drafts. Sometimes I look at Draft submissions at New Pages Feed that could meet notability but there is a hint of advertising or conflict of interest, judging by the username or the article's tone. I might take a stab at some declined drafts to see if I can bring them up to Wikipedia's requirements.

Also @Primefac I noticed on Sunday you replied to all AfC participant requests other than mine – are you still reviewing my case? I'm keen to get involved in this process via a probationary period of some sort. Thaks. TLA^tlak 02:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am still reviewing. Your participation in various discussions here is helping that process. Primefac (talk) 07:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the update! TLA^tlak 07:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to the 22-source decline draft, same thing. Reviewer had posted a COI notice on the creator's other draft that was interconnected (person & association). It's possible that caused a decline for the 22-source draft. TLA^tlak 02:24, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A COI is not a reason to decline a draft; a promotional page is a reason to decline a page, but COI editors can (admittedly rarely) write neutral articles. Primefac (talk) 07:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it depends on how promotional it is. And fax, I see so many clearly use ChatGPT or an WP:CORP draft completely rely on the company's own website and press releases. TLA^tlak 07:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

fyi, if you see that a draft or article is mostly citing the company's own website and various press releases, this is a strong hint that running it through earwig might show obvious copyvio. -- asilvering (talk) 18:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, if the wp:afc passage standard is intended to be a reasonable chance of passage at AFD, why are there "decline" templates for reasons which are not a reason for deletion of an article? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess an example WP:NPOV. I think people just have higher standards with an AfC submission (it's like decline or accept) but at AfD people are lenient as it would "already" be in the mainspace which = opportunity for other editors to "fix" TLA^tlak 03:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because AFC reviewers individually and collectively have requirements beyond WP:LIKELY to survive WP:AFD. WP:NPOV is the only one in the reviewer instructions but certainly not the only one in play. Reviewers seem to appreciate additional latitude to decline because you do risk the scorn of other editors for accepting a marginal draft. ~Kvng (talk) 22:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kvng: (and to others) I think that you have accurately described the situation. Noting, you have described a situation which conflicts with the official AFC passage criteria. I'm not implying which one is a better idea, but wouldn't it be a good idea to reconcile the two? North8000 (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it means changing the acceptance criteria to include a quality component, no, that takes us further from the Wikipedia way. Changing reviewer behavior to more closely match reviewing instructions will require a cultural change at AfC. I'm not sure where to start with that. ~Kvng (talk) 14:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kvng: I think that the latter would be easier than you realize. I think that most reviewers doing non-AFC criteria rejections do it out of fear / obligation including for the reason described in your 22:04, 17 March 2024 post. AFC also gives mixed signals on this, including by having rejection templates for criteria which are not AFC rejection criteria. And easy start would be to get rid of non-AFC criteria rejection templates. And n the instruction directly say that it is OK to pass articles (and they should pass articles) with quality problems if the AFC criteria have been met. North8000 (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with North8000 on his first point. I was also in the "apply quality criteria to avoid criticism" camp when I started reviewing, but after a short discussion with an experienced reviewer, I quickly switched my priorities to be more in line with meeting core policies than assessing things like prose quality or formatting. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 20:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Primefac set up a workshop several years ago to review decline reasons and messaging available in AFCH. I suggested removing many of these. IIRC, my suggestions were not well received also the whole workshop project stalled. ~Kvng (talk) 23:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kvng: We should work out a specific proposal and propose it. I'd be happy to help but I'm not very fluent in the AFC mechanics/message/template details so this would other folks to work on development. I'm pretty strong on article existence criteria (a few thousand NPP reviews over a few years) so I could help in the article existence respect. North8000 (talk) 18:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid all I'm up for at this point is beating my head against this wall on occasion. ~Kvng (talk) 01:11, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a snippet. Ive been involved in training hundreds of new Wikipedia editors for years and we tell them all about the five pillars and then caution them never to use the AFC process. Everyone here knows why. I'm not keen to join this debate. I look through the articles that we have on Wikipedia that are completely unreferenced and then I look at a stalled AFC where I see editors who I m sure think they they are helping with "Articles for Creation" and its all too frequently "Articles for continued continuation". The unreferenced articles are nowhere near AfC tick standard. The articles that are rejected at AfC are of much higher standard. It takes an hour to create a perfectly valid Wikipedia article that can add to the project just as long as the editor doesnt press the AfC button.... in whiich case the same article can take months before its abandoned. I see in this thread then you want to discuss examples .... umm the issue I'm afraid is not about a specific article. I get the impression that some members of the AfC crew are valued if they keep the backlog down by repeatedly rejecting articles that no one would think needed deleting. Good luck with addressing this problem. Victuallers (talk) 09:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Avoiding AfC seems like good advice for editors that have been given some training. Thanks for your work here! ~Kvng (talk) 00:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, at least at the macro level, the solution is simple. Align everything "pass/fail" related at AFC with it's stated pass/fail criteria. (e.g. instructions to reviewers, failure templates etc.) North8000 (talk) 15:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also say that it's OK to pass "edge cases" regarding wp:notability. We can handle those out at NPP based on AFD norms which is a harder-to-learn criteria. North8000 (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tristan Tate

Since we are discussing the Tristan Tate article, I would like feedback on whether what I did with that page was reasonable. As has been mentioned, the article was submitted to AFC, reasonably, and declined, reasonably. The originator then requested discussion at DRN. The author said that they wanted the draft moved into article space so that there could be a deletion discussion to obtain a rough consensus on individual notability.

DRN has not in the past been a forum for a discussion of draft declines, which are discussed at the AFC Help Desk or the Teahouse. Also, I had previously declined an earlier version of the draft, and so had become involved and would not be a neutral mediator. However, I was willing to ignore the rule that a reviewer should only accept a draft if they thought that there was a greater than 50% chance that it would be kept after AFD. I had no idea what the likelihood was that it would be kept at AFD, but I thought that it was in the interests of the encyclopedia to resolve the question of the biographical notability of Tristan Tate with an AFD. So I said that if the draft was resubmitted to AFC again, I would accept it for the purpose of enabling a deletion discussion. The originator resubmitted, and I accepted, and there was a seven-day AFD, which has now been non-admin closed as Keep. So my question is: Do other reviewers think that I reasonably applied Ignore All Rules? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will also comment that I think that the non-administrative close was questionable because the AFD had been contentious, and the guideline says that contentious closes should be left to admins. But that is a matter either for discussion with the closer or for Deletion Review. It would have been a valid admin close, and I am very seldom inclined to criticize a non-admin close simply for being a non-admin close. But if it comes to Deletion Review, I will !vote to Overturn to Relist to allow an admin to close after another week, but that is only my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have accepted drafts knowing that they would probably be sent to AFD, so I don't think there's anything wrong with what you did here. Primefac (talk) 18:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The close was self reverted. But the afd is still leaning keep. I think that's your answer right there, Robert. You accepted a draft that is so far surviving a deletion discussion. Looks like a good accept to me. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be good to have a subst'able response template to place on users' talk pages, when they make this mistake. It seems to be a daily occurrence that some person from India places a draft biography into WP:Articles for creation/Redirects instead of using a sandbox or draftspace. That in itself is very weird, why are so many people from India are writing bios at AFC/R? There should be a standardized response to these people to tell them to use the article wizard, draft space, or a user sandbox, instead of making an illegal request at AFC/R. Considering how common this has become recently, there should be a template response to this situation, just as we have template rejection closures at AFC/R for closing requests. -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 07:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be in support of this. It has slowed down a little bit but for a good while we were getting at least one draft attempt at really weird AFC-related redirect talk pages (like... in places where I am literally the only page watcher... who finds these things?). A note about the "right place" might help over simply reverting them with "wrong location" as the edit summary. Primefac (talk) 12:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will note that we have ((Uw-draftfirst)) which theoretically could be used in these sorts of circumstances, though it's not perfect. Primefac (talk) 12:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

((AfC redirect error)) suits this purpose quite well. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 13:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I knew we had something better-suited. Thanks! Primefac (talk) 14:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can this be documented somewhere? Other than this discussion, nothing links to it. Single-level user information (WP:SLT) templates would seem to be a location. As would AfC reviewer instructions. It also might do with a rename, to add "category" to the cannonical template name, with redirects from "redirect" and "category" individually. -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 03:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've renamed the page to ((Improper AfC redirect or category request)), and will add the page to SLT! ~ Eejit43 (talk) 11:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is another discussion about how much control reviewers have over an article, and I am bringing it here, because I think that another experienced editor and I have a good-faith disagreement. An editor wrote a biography of a Taiwanese general, Tang Chia-kun. in article space, but it had no sources. A reviewer moved it to draft space. So far, there is no disagreement that the draftification was correct. Another editor made some changes and added two sources, and submitted the draft for review. The originator then copy-pasted the revised draft into article space. The question is what to do at this point. It looked to me like a case of objecting to draftification. I redirected the draft to the article. One question is whether there is any way to enforce draft review. My view is that there is not a way to enforce draft review, in the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Bypassing draft review is undesirable but permitted. The article can be nominated for deletion, but the subject does appear to be notable. So is there a way for enforce draft review, or is this a case where about all we can do is tag the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you want to "enforce draft review"? You say that the subject is notable and is sourced so no longer an unsourced BLP so tag for any other issues and job done - as far as AfC reviews are concerned. In this case I see that Cdjp1 improved the draft and the original author has taken this and recreated with no attribution so that is a separate issue. This could/should be fixed with a WP:HISTMERGE or if caught before the live version was further changed a round-robin move would have had the same effect. KylieTastic (talk) 19:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "disagreement" is more just my ignorance of a process I don't interact with, so apologies for any difficulties this has caused. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:KylieTastic - Maybe I didn't clarify things. I don't want to enforce draft review. It was User:Cdjp1 who wanted to ensureasked about ensuring that the draft was reviewed properly rather than just pushed into article space. I wanted to clarify that we don't enforce draft review, because the use of draft space is optional, except in a few cases, and Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that (almost) anyone can edit. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cdjp1 you were right to be concerned and raising your concern got eyes on the subject which is a good thing. We want to discourage people doing this sort of thing but the policies do allow it (ish... as a DRAFTOBJECT would say move not copy and loose attribution/history). The authors talk page clearly shows they have issues understanding the policies and guidelines. Luckily we have NPP to fall back on so thus it's no issue anyway. Thanks for doing the actual work to add some sourcing. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 10:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my view: Using draft space to draft an article does not obligate an editor to use the AFC process, any more than use of their sandbox space does. The AFC process is entirely optional except for COI editors, IP editors and new editors who are not autoconfirmed. I object to any editor trying to portray AFC as anything more than optional. Any editor who is not in those restricted groups can move their work in progress to the main space anytime they want, especially so if a more experienced editor has improved the draft. We have WP:NPP and the three deletion processes to deal with poor quality articles, as well as the normal editing process, which is all important. Cullen328 (talk) 08:16, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draftification is either a new stage of the article creation gauntlet or a sneaky path to deletion. Why do we do this to ourselves? ~Kvng (talk) 19:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coming in late, for which I apologize! @Kvng, when I have seen draftification occur, it's been as an alternative to deletion - that is, the editor draftifying thinks it could become an accepted article, but not as it currently is, and wants it to have another chance. Of course there's always the possibility I'm missing a majority of draftifications, but my experience suggests that it's more an effort to quickly rescue an article (before it goes to AfD, for example) than to push it into oblivion. StartGrammarTime (talk) 10:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draftification is potentially useful if the author is involved and agrees, but in that case, why not just give them a month to work on it in place in mainspace. In mainspace they're more likely to experience a collaborative opportunity. Leaving something in mainspace that's not totally up to snuff for a few weeks or months is not exactly unprecedented or significantly deleterious to the encyclopedia. ~Kvng (talk) 13:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, all,

I'm running into drafts that reviewers say are "blank" but if you look at the page history, there is clearly an article there, the new editor mistakenly put the content between code that hides it. I don't think that this should be a test to see how adept editors are at understanding Wikicode, just remove the <-- --> code and, voila, an article appears. Just take a second to remove the Wikicode and evaluate the article that they wrote, don't reject the article for being blank. Thank you very much for all of the work you do. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Liz. TLA^tlak 14:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have not been a fan of the ilc decline rationale for a while now. It is only valid in extremely specific circumstances, and yet I it gets widely and inappropriately used. My issue is that this decline code should really only be used in addition to something else. Not enough references? Use v. Notability issues? Use one of the half-dozen notability options. ilc in and of itself should not be a reason to decline, just like formatting or layout issues should not be a decline.

I will use Draft:Jacques Daudin as an example. In Special:Permalink/1129578762 by Curbon7, this is a solid decline but v should have probably been used as well to indicate that more references were needed. Special:Permalink/1149411051 by Majash2020 has three unsourced sentences in the whole draft - not the most egregious of issues but again I think a v decline would have been better. Special:Permalink/1215354794 by Johannes Maximilian is just flat-out wrong, because every single sentence has a reference - you cannot add more inline citations other than adding more references, which again v should have been used if that were the case (or a notability decline if GNG is the issue). I was actually in the process of undoing that decline but the creator resubmitted before I could do so. As a site note, Special:Permalink/1215170278 by UtherSRG should have used a custom decline of "no change" or similar rather than using an invalid decline reason with a comment contradicting it.

So I guess my example above is my long-winded way of saying that we should just remove this reason entirely. On its own it is not a valid decline reason, and it is misused more than it is used as a supplement, and really if we want it as a supplement we should just tack on an extra sentence to v saying to make sure there are inline citations. However, I am not a monarch, so I would like to get feedback from you fine folks as how best we should proceed. Primefac (talk) 21:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It is hard to remember my reasoning for declining that submission as ilc since it was over a year ago, but whatever it was it could have been accomplished better with a comment. Curbon7 (talk) 21:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having déjà vu with this one... should have been removed a long time ago. KylieTastic (talk) 21:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

KylieTastic, you're referring to Draft:Jacques Daudin? Well, I agree, and I'll remove it, to mainspace. The man got a three-page obituary in an academic journal in his field: that's notability right there, and as Primefac indicated, every sentence has a source. It is not a high-quality article, but that's not where we're at anyway. Drmies (talk) 18:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Drmies, I was actually referring to the multiple times this subject has come up about ilc as a misused decline reason. I must admit I did not even look at the linked article - but now I have I agree with you: they are notable and it should have been accepted. All sources were inline so I just don;t understand the ilc declines. Yes some claims are unsourced (or may be in the other sources) but that requires either some trimming and/or tagging not a sentence to death by draft. KylieTastic (talk) 18:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the previous discussion last year for reference. S0091 (talk) 21:50, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can some one please provide the ILC decline language here? I can't remember where all the AfC decline messages are located or how to do one those fancy blue boxes. :) S0091 (talk) 22:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The content of this submission includes material that does not meet Wikipedia's minimum standard for inline citations. Please cite your sources using footnotes. For instructions on how to do this, please see Referencing for beginners. Thank you. Curbon7 (talk) 23:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The AFC decline reasons are located in Template:AFC submission/comments, I think. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• As I said last year: "The best time to provide inline citations to content is when that content is first added. I have had to rewrite entire articles before because the original author had not provided inline citations, and it was effectively impossible to go back and figure out what referred to what. Especially when the vast majority of AfC submissions are about barely notables/paid content, I think it is more than reasonable to expect that drafters put a reasonable number of inline citations to help reviewers gauge the draft's acceptability. I think having a distinct category from the [v] decline is important, especially if the true issue in a draft is that it has controversial statements that demand sourcing under policy. Making a more nuanced [v] decline is not going to help anyone because our drafters hardly read the declines they're given, let alone if they were made longer." CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 00:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  It's a common complaint that AFC is stricter than NPP/creating an article in mainspace. Requiring inline citations would probably move the needle even more in that direction, which might create friction with the folks that dislike AFC. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:07, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  ​ My primary counter-argument is along similar lines to Novem Linguae - if GNG is met by the provided references, the draft should be accepted. I agree with you that it can be problematic and indeed frustrating if the content on the page is not wholly supported by the references, but drafts are far from the only pages that experience this issue. While it would be nice to have every acceptable draft be properly formatted and perfectly cited, that is not our primary criteria or goal; determining GNG and weeding out spam are our main goals. Primefac (talk) 08:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Primefac, I guess I never saw that memo, haha. I've been exerting that kind of quality control--well, no, maybe not, certainly not very strictly. I wasn't even aware of all these parameters. Having read up a bit I see the point of them, but I also see your point. I have to say, though, after just moving Draft:Jacques Daudin to mainspace, the majority of what I see in draft space does not look like that--by which I mean reasonably OK and certainly notable. The reference that IMO proves notability, an obit in an academic journal in his field, was added in December 2022 already. I would hope that the editors working on drafts will also help writer in developing these articles. Had this been cleaned up a bit by one of the editors who turned it down (unjustly), it would have been up for a year or more by now. Drmies (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can we not just clarify this in the AFCH script? A bracketed "(use only in conjunction with another decline reason)" or something? -- asilvering (talk) 04:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Creating a category of decline reasons that could only be used with other decline reasons would add complexity. Not sure that's ideal. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean do it technically somehow, I mean simply relabel ilc in the drop-down so that it's clear that it should only be used in conjunction with another decline. -- asilvering (talk) 06:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is possible, yes. Primefac (talk) 08:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like this idea. Even if we look at this from a pure BLP perspective, it impacts almost all the notability guidelines: NMUSIC (bios), PROF, ATHLETE, NEVENT (could involve living people), NCORP (often includes content about living people, like founder, CEO, etc.), and so on. Another idea is to add a note about in-line citations being required for in certain situations and/or encouraging them in general under the "Improving your odds of a speedy review" sections in Template:AfC submission/draft and Template:AfC submission/pending to decrease the need to use ILC from the get-go. S0091 (talk) 15:47, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think one way to read WP:BURDEN is that non-BLPs do not require inline citations, but WP:BLPs do. I always figured that was the idea behind ilc, and I personally just used it in BLPs only. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If kept, maybe change it to blp-ilc and modify the language appropriately. – robertsky (talk) 05:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was the exact nature of last year's discussion: whether ilc should be folded to blp, and the answer was no. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 07:45, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, BLP is only one of the 4 scenarios that require in-line citations. S0091 (talk) 15:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I agree that ilc often gets misused (and I'm sure I'm as guilty of that as anyone) and should be applied more judiciously; however, I don't agree we should get rid of it. Where it applies, it communicates a very specific reason, in a much more specific way than v does. (Using v tends to just bring the author to the help desk to ask "why are my sources not considered reliable?") I can't point to actual examples, but I've seen more than one BLP draft where all the cites support the person's discography or whatever, and the entire body text and infobox, with DOB, family details, etc. is entirely unreferenced. The subject may be notable, the sources in the discography section may be proper RS, but the cites fall way short of what is required of a BLP. (In practice, I would probably decline that with v + ilc, not just ilc alone, but would like to also have the ilc option as well.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Basically agree. Also, since the actual decline text doesn't mention BLPs specifically, it is useful for when information that is "likely to be challenged" and core to the article (as opposed to a discography or whatever) lacks citations. Mach61 13:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BLPs are a special case. For other articles, you're welcome to do your own improvements: add ((cn)), WP:STUBIFY and such before or after accepting. We shouldn't be declining drafts for lax citations. We just need enough sources to demonstrate notability. They don't need to be inline citations. ~Kvng (talk) 15:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kvng But sometimes removing the unsourced statements would give the article no context at all. Certainly I don't mind accepting drafts that need to have a refimprove tag placed per se. Mach61 15:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My standard practice when an AFC submission is made without making any adjustments to the draft after it was previously declined is to use the same decline reason along with a comment along the lines of "no change since last decline", hence my use of ilc in the aforementioned case. Can we get a new template for "no changes"? I would support having a note on ilc in the tool that indicates it should be used only in addition to another reason. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is that – let's be honest – most drafts fail any review within a few seconds' time because of improper referencing. Citing sources is taught in secondary school so it's reasonable to assume that anyone aged 16 or older knows the basics of citing sources. I'm not talking about the nitpicking of sticking to a specific citation style like Harvard, APA, MLA, Chicago etc.; I'm talking about the citation basics, i.e., who claims what in which publication and when does he do so (4Ws). Now, a "citation style" that is far off of the citaiton basics does not indicate what I call "citation competence". I argue that "citation competence" is a necessity for a good article: If someone doesn't understand whom or what he cites, then the content that's "supported" by the reference is likely not going to make sense. In the Daudin case, the citation reads: "News". www.eccea.com. Retrieved 2022-12-26. How vacuous do you want your footnote to be? YES. I mean, I get why ilc is not the correct decline reason, however, it renders a text that makes perfect sense: "Please cite your sources using footnotes. For instructions on how to do this, please see Referencing for beginners." This is why I felt it was reasonable. See, "News" is exactly as useful as "www.thisisatotallyunrealibalesource.com" without any formatting whatsoever. I'd say that we still get draft submissions that include the latter, unfortunately. Thus, I would not advise removing the ilc decline reason. --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 16:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Citing sources is taught in secondary school Please cite your sources on this. XD Only half joking, as I bet not all English-language authors (which include many authors whose primary language isn't English) went to a secondary school that teaches this. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Citing sources is taught in secondary school so it's reasonable to assume that anyone aged 16 or older knows the basics of citing sources. is certainly not true, even in First World countries much less others. S0091 (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

University teacher here: can confirm that this is absolutely not true. -- asilvering (talk) 22:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I didn't know this. It's been a while now, but I had to compose a "pre-scientific paper" to be elegible for graduation from secondary school, and at university it was expected from me that I knew how to cite. However, I have never lived in an English-speaking country. Best, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 15:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I too had the good fortune to learn about citation practices in high school. But in my experience teaching post-secondary students, we were either the lucky ones, or the only ones paying any attention. -- asilvering (talk) 18:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I argue that "citation competence" is a necessity for a good article We're not looking for good articles at AfC, we're looking for a neutral start that covers a notable subject. If someone has to rewrite the whole thing later to improve it, so be it and presumably they get some satisfaction out of doing so. Yes, please remove ILC and other decline reasons that distract from our triage mission here at AfC. ~Kvng (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is AfC, not a GA review. -- asilvering (talk) 22:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Johannes Maximilian: Wikipedia would have never developed in its early years if it did not accept poorly (or, in some cases, entirely unreferenced) articles as a starting point. We should not hold new users making starting points to unreasonably high standards. Mach61 13:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of what one thinks about articles with that issue going into mainspace, having it as / used as a rejection template is in conflict with the AFC passage criteria. So that conflict should be reconciled. Unless we want to decide that AFC is to to be a higher bar than AFD, the way to resolve it is to eliminate it / its use as a rejection template. North8000 (talk) 15:55, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@North8000 it is not a rejection reason but is currently available as a decline reason which allows for resubmission. You may have meant decline but wanted to clarify. S0091 (talk) 16:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@S0091: Thanks and sorry....still learning to use the correct AFC terminology. I did mean decline. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@North8000 no worries! What you think about it still being available as long as it only used in conjunction with another decline reason? S0091 (talk) 17:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that AFC is a good place for improvement advice as long as it makes it very clear that it was not even a part of the reason for the decline. If not clear, not, because it would just cause confusion for newer editors. North8000 (talk) 17:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@North8000: Surely adding a ((more footnotes needed)) tag is better than using ilc as a fake decline reason Mach61 18:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. North8000 (talk) 18:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support removal per my discussion above. North8000 (talk) 19:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support removal: while I like having ILC as an option, based on most of the comments here, it is not largely not supported as a stand-alone reason for declining a draft and often abused. As volunteers, we are not obligated to review any draft so a reviewer can choose to not review drafts that do not use in-line citations. As suggested by Mach61, we can tag them which can be done while still in draft and/or leave a comment to the creator recommending using inline citations without doing a review (i.e. tag/comment, roll on) or if they pass notability accept and tag. On drafts we are declining for other reasons, we can add an additional comment stating in-line citations are required if it meets the criteria such as BLP or recommending them. I still think it is good to idea to recommend in-line citations to the "Improving your odds of a speedy review" as I did above. I think most of us probably agree drafts with in-line citations are generally easier to review and articles with in-line citations are more beneficial to our readers in general. S0091 (talk) 19:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ILC is not the only questionable decline reason. We did some comprehensive work on this in 2018 - Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Decline_comments_workshop. This project doesn't look like it reached completion/consensus. I'm not sure if any suggested changes were implemented. ~Kvng (talk) 21:58, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kvng, let's focus on one thing at a time. I wanted to discuss ilc, not any of the other reasons. Primefac (talk) 07:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Baby steps? ~Kvng (talk) 13:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is getting a bit messy and may benefit from a survey subheading for easier closing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, it has been about a month since I was added to the AfC reviewer list. I have done a couple reviews over this month and would be happy to do more. Pinging @Primefac for review, thanks. TLA^tlak 15:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has been three weeks and three days, but I welcome feedback on their performance nonetheless. Primefac (talk) 15:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@I'm tla why did you not wait a full month before requesting a review as Primefac instucted? Also, why did you not wait to get feedback before requesting the NPP perm, now for the 3rd time in less than three months? You've been advised time and again not to rush be yet you still do which is one of the reasons an admin brought you to ANI and the reason an ANI you filed was dismissed, not to mention the advise you have been given on your talk page another other venues. S0091 (talk) 18:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@S0091 I wasn't aware it was a hard, 30-day month, sorry. I requested NPP because I truly think I'm ready, maybe I am over zealous but I hope that my competence has shown in the 40+ pages, 50+ reviews. I haven't been in issues in a long while, as the ANIs you mentioned have all been important learning opportunities.

However, given that both you and @DreamRimmer think it's best that I wait before applying for NPR, I have withdrawn my request.

As per the message you gave on my talk page, I really do not quite understand why that was a problem when all I wanted to do was move my draft to the mainspace because I believed it was ready. TLA^tlak 14:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're right in that Primefac didn't say "30 days", he said "a month" which is not 3 weeks and as for the ANI's, those were in the last couple months so not that long ago. The reason I mention them at all is because it demonstrates an ongoing pattern. As for you accepting your own pending draft, I haven't mentioned it because it is not prohibited, nor should it be. As I stated, given you are on probation with restrictions I didn't think it was a good idea.

I think you have potential, TLA but you still have a lot to learn. For example, your source assessments at AfDs have issues as demonstrated at WP:Articles for deletion/INVNT, WP:Articles for deletion/Saidullah Karimi (some were identical articles) and WP:Articles for deletion/Justin Jin where experienced engaged editors have disagreed with your analysis. These are all recent. S0091 (talk) 16:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Got it, I'm not quite understanding why accepting my own draft wasn't a good idea, it was just procedural. As per the AfDs, I'm not perfect in my source analyses but I hope my 87% match rate can show I have an understanding. Thank you for thinking I have potential, that is very encouraging.

P.S. I don't think you should link those two on-going AfDs as that can be interpreted as canvassing TLA^tlak 16:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you should link those two on-going AfDs... False; S0091 is not asking for anyone else to participate. Primefac (talk) 17:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add to this for the benefit of TLA/anyone else reading, it's perfectly fine even to invite others to participate in an AfD directly, provided that you aren't trying to prejudice the result in some way. Pinging a handful of people who have historically voted keep in similar AfDs is canvassing. Going to someone who has access to, say, a database of 20th century Lithuanian newspapers, and asking for their help finding sources for a bio article up for AfD is fine. Every so often I take a handful of AfDs to WP:WIRED for the latter reason, since a lot of people there are newspaper wizards. If they say they can't find anything, I believe them! It's much better to have a conclusive delete/keep than something that fizzles out in no consensus for lack of input, which just wastes the time of the few who participated. -- asilvering (talk) 17:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops. I was once warned when linking to an on-going AfD, I may have interpreted it wrong. Sorry S0091. TLA^tlak 16:02, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No apology needed. It's a valid concern and have no issue with you bringing it up. S0091 (talk) 16:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I personally do not take a whole lot of stock in the AfD match rate. It can be a good indicator of someone being totally out of whack with PAGs/consensus/norms but what really matters is the quality of participation/analysis. Anyone can do a drive-by !vote, which is pretty much what you did in January with !votes being cast within seconds of each other, and the stats can be gamed. What I look for is when someone !voted and overall engagement (i.e..did they review the sources, explain their reasoning, convince others who are experienced and engaged, etc.). Certainly not that !votes need to be accompanied by a full source assessment or anything like that but enough to tell they have a grasp, can determine a good source from bad one and understand the relevant PAGs. (Side note, for some reason your AfD stats stop on February 26th though you have participated since that time).

I think you have you some work to do which includes taking seriously the feedback you are given directly, in AfDs, etc. as its not clear you do and in some instances, clear you haven't. I've blathered on enough so will step aside. S0091 (talk) 18:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, maybe my AfD counter is broken? You are right that I rushed in January, but quite sure my votes in March/February have depth and not drive-by at all though. Sometimes I used a source assessment table. TLA^tlak 16:46, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest posting a note at WP:VPT about the counter. It is odd. ? Yes, you have done sources assessment tables but your sources assessments are poor as demonstrated in the AfDs I noted above. S0091 (talk) 18:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Linking AFDs on WikiProject talk pages is usually fine. It's pings and user talk pages that can run afoul of canvassing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a time yesterday I was thinking of speaking to an editor, who voted the same as me, on their talk page about an AfD. Is that fine? TLA^tlak 16:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably. No one's going to be able to give you a clear "always fine" or "always not fine" on this kind of hypothetical because it's going to come down to perceived intent. If you develop a habit of always voting keep or always voting delete on a particular class of articles, people will be less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. Same goes for if you do it constantly, if you do it when it looks like you have a particular interest in the outcome, etc. -- asilvering (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a concrete example, from Usedtobecool's comment below: The first in light of the second suggests to me an editor who had already decided they were not going to allow yet another young person biography to get deleted by the "passionate" others who were "targeting" it. This suggests to me that you will be extended considerably less benefit of the doubt when it comes to bio articles on young people. -- asilvering (talk) 17:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with asilvering. It depends because you don't want to come across as colluding. If the AfD is already close though, colluding would be a big stretch for obvious reasons. However, I think you would benefit more from reaching out to editors who have disagreed with you. S0091 (talk) 17:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

S0091, you meant Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Justin Jin (entrepreneur), right? I am too close to it but I have a couple concerns which I wish to make known for independent evaluation. First, I disagree with their analysis almost completely. They were the largest contributor to that page in both size and frequency. I do not think someone who's unsure about what they're doing should be overwhelming a discussion like that. There was so much to challenge that I gave up on it completely. I saw strawmanning (As well, Spanish language should not be considered per WP:GNG), misapplication of WP:ENT (the second criteria of WP:ENTERTAINER may potentially apply here ... My small point with WP:ENTERTAINER relates to comedians, vaguely, with the fact that the subject seems to make comedy videos and that the company itself posts a lot of memes) and a failure to correct the entry on Billboard Argentina in their source analysis table when pointed out to them. When I said the source highlighting script doesn't necessarily represent consensus, they said, A good amount of them do. There is 6, and to me, 5 of them meet our requirements for significant coverage and independence. If it were up to me, that article would be deleted as spam, so naturally, I am wary when I see someone who saw no problem with it trying to join AFC/NPP but that's just my perspective. The second concern relates to this: The nominator's peculiar passion to delete this page and the imprecise G4 rationale by an administrator (having been deleted over a year ago, with strong changes and a massive increase in sourcing, and no hoaxes) seem to reflect a common trend I've seen on Wikipedia. Young, relatively notable subjects such as Rishab Jain, Avi Schiffmann, Jenk Oz, Kevin Leyes (which has since been recreated under Leyes (singer) due to new sourcing, which is evidently the case here as well, are often a target of editors. The first in light of the second suggests to me an editor who had already decided they were not going to allow yet another young person biography to get deleted by the "passionate" others who were "targeting" it. Other AFDs mentioned indicate the same to me: an editor who has a very hard time accepting a deletion outcome, which is fine except if you intend to work AFC/NPP, where we have to put our personal philosophies second to community given inclusion guidelines. They need to consider carefully whether this was the case, and if they need to sort out their priorities.

I checked a few of their reviews. And I think they should have brought Draft:Jasmin Champagne to admin attention immediately, even if they weren't sure what to do with it (which I wasn't either, but I contacted OS and it was promptly suppressed). It's hard to explain why now because TLA likely doesn't remember what it was, and I couldn't bring it up until I heard back from OS. But Primefac is an OS. I trust they will review and advise accordingly. I do not mean to recommend they should not be a reviewer, as I am unsure as to the expectations that are realistic for this project. I am sharing feedback because it looks like that's what's happening here. I am sure TLA will do fine with more experience. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 14:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I did mean Justin Jin (entrepreneur). Thanks for catching my error, @Usedtobecool. S0091 (talk) 15:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm tla, sorry for using the third person. It's only because I was replying to S0091. I hope you'll consider my feedback—which, sorry again, is mostly criticism as I reread it—even if you end up ultimately not agreeing with all of it. Regards! — Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:30, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was definitely a contentious AfD. Most of my comments there were with Jeraxmoira (we had disagreements of the relationship between interviews and independence), I decided to stop replying after a while because it got heated and I stopped caring to be honest. I also just noticed that it's at a deletion review, and it looks like it'll likely be relisted in a few days. Well this is not a place to argue again, but I'd like to justify my statements (admittedly went overboard at that one and some others):

1. The language and origin of the sourcing isn't a technical policy, and the African origin sourcing was obviously reasonable.

2. I disagreed with your reasoning to change Billboard to unreliable. Don't know why it's the Argentina edition, but I wanted to stick to policy and not speculate.

3. I feel WP:ENT should apply (comedic elements), but even if it doesn't, WP:GNG was met with my source assessment. I remain by that, though some of it is borderline.

4. I think the draft was previously deleted as G11? If I recall correctly I don't think it qualified as that.

As I've already commented a lot there, if it does go back to AfD I won't participate. Unless I change my vote to Draftify because this (imo) only be a WP:TOOSOON case.

I don't recall what Draft:Jasmin Champagne was, I'm guessing it was some diary entry? Perhaps I only read half of it and declined, I see that you marked it for G11 so was there some advertising content at the bottom that I missed?

I have no problem with the criticism. Lots of experienced and respected editors have shown up here to look at my work and that's great. I disagree with some of it and it admittedly can get tough, but it is helpful in the long run. TLA^tlak 16:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TLA, can you expand upon "I wanted to stick to policy and not speculate." in #2? S0091 (talk) 17:02, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm tla,

1. I think you're hung up on how foreign language sources are as good as English language sources for use on Wikipedia, whereas my point wasn't language. My point was that a notable Canadian should have coverage in Canada and maybe the USA if they're already getting covered in Argentina, Nigeria and Holland. Because stuff like that happens when, for the express purpose of using on Wikipedia, they shop around the world for legitimate-looking and sounding websites and magazines that you can buy coverage in.
2. You need to explain this further.
3. ENT applies for people whose claim to notability stems for ENT activities, not everyone who's ever done anything ENT in their life. Businesspeople involved in producing art and entertainment are not themselves artists or entertainers, they're businesspeople. You said ENT#2 might apply, which says the contributions need to unique, prolific or innovative. Which attribute would you apply to Jin's comedy?
4. Not sure what draft you're talking about.

I will leave it to Primefac to speak about Draft:Jasmin Champagne, or not. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 19:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An unsourced draft about a minor should always be sent to oversight to be dealt with privately. Primefac (talk) 20:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is about Draft:Jasmin Champagne? It looks like I said Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a "passion project" or "digital journal", sorry. so I'm guessing it was written by a minor with some personal content. Can't quite recall. If I come across something like that in the future I'll make sure to SD nom it and go to oversight. TLA^tlak 15:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Usedtobecool should we take this to a talk page? I don't want this to be a reiteration of an AfD. TLA^tlak 15:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have to, for my benefit. If you want to, I'm game too. Either way, we can stop discussing the AFD here, sure. If you'd like to add a final response, feel free. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like an answer to #2 from a source/AfD agnostic perspective. Which policy and what is meant by "speculate". S0091 (talk) 20:55, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is Usedtobecool mentioned in the AfD that Billboard AR shouldn't be reliable because it calls an obscure 17-year-old Canadian a "mogul". TLA^tlak 14:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think what you are calling speculation is the standard evaluation and analysis that should occur with any source, even if "green lit" because context matters and exceptional claims require exceptional sources. You might find Talk:Arrests of Ulysses S. Grant an enlightening example of the evaluation of several reputable sources by some of Wikipedia's most experienced editors. S0091 (talk) 18:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of Billboard AR, @Novem Linguae how did Billboard AR become a green lit source in your script? It wasn't a couple weeks or so ago and as far as I can tell, while their charts meet the WP:CHART criteria there's been no discussion about their articles/reviews. WP:WikiProject Albums/Sources is specific that Billboard US is generally reliable but makes no claim for other countries. Other countries are under different ownership and not the same editorial body as US. S0091 (talk) 19:50, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just FYI, TLA added Billboard AR and many other Nigerian/Non-Nigerian URLs to this script. See Special:Diff/1211746164 and Special:Diff/1214639619. – DreamRimmer (talk) 00:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Usually I would think it is safe to assume that the same brand in different languages is the same content and editorial process. But to play it safe, I'll go ahead and remove the non-US Billboards here. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reviews seem promising, and I think it's time to remove the review limit restriction. Nonetheless, I concur with S0091; it's important not to rush through things and request NPR until you've spent another month or two reviewing AfC submissions and participating in AfDs. – DreamRimmer (talk) 13:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, DreamRimmer. TLA^tlak 16:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• TLA has been CU blocked. Even if they become the exception and manage to return anytime soon, they should not be doing AFC/NPP for a while. Too many red flags, and they had some work to do in understanding PAGs and norms too. Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  And not for being the sock, but for being a new sockmaster. Sigh. -- asilvering (talk) 23:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I did not have that on my AFCP bingo card... Primefac (talk) 11:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed a number of Australian/Tasmanian flora articles recently, however I just noticed that they add all single article accounts, and all make the same weird format error of periods after the references, or missing. They are also all quite reasonable submissions. So now I'm wondering is this a sock, or some organised project with the similarities maybe coming from some example? Anyone remember any blocked user being involved with this type of subject before or aware of any project running this? Examples: Poa clivicola, Diplaspis cordifolia, Schoenus tesquorum and Euchiton traversii. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 13:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would suspect a class assignment to create flora articles; it would be a bit odd for one person to create four accounts just to create four articles. As you say, any formatting error similarities are likely because they were going off a standard template or similar.

That being said, I could be completely wrong, so if folk do remember anything about a sockmaster that fits this bill, I'm happy to run checks. Primefac (talk) 19:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a class assignment, editathon, or some kind of benign explanation is more likely than sockpuppetry here. Luckily, species is not a topic area that usually attracts sockpuppets. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Caught the draft creator moving their own AfC draft to mainspace after it was declined (see diff). Can somebody from AfC decide the best course of action on this? Does this break any guideline or policy? Pilaz (talk) 06:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:DRAFTOBJECT, no, there's nothing wrong with their actions. For someone on AFCH as a probationary member though... maybe. Primefac (talk) 06:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draftspace is optional so that's allowed. WP:NPP will check it and determine the next course of action. It could end up at WP:AFD, or it might be fine. That's the risk folks take when they decide to skip draftspace.

In regards to them being a probationary AFC reviewer, I think it's good that they moved it rather than using the AFC helper script to do an official AFC accept. If they had done the latter and put an official AFC stamp of approval on it, that would look WP:INVOLVED. But using move makes it an action unrelated to AFC, in my opinion. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Looks like the move is two months old, and predates their AFC reviewer application and approval. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blargh... really need to check timestamps on these sorts of things. Thanks. Primefac (talk) 06:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This user is making some genuine efforts to write content but is just getting knocked back on Draft:Gauda conquest of Kamarup. I'm not saying this was the wrong decision but is there any way we can we be more encouraging and supportive rather than just declining the good faith submissions? I've left some suggestions on Draft talk:Gauda conquest of Kamarup — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I used to add more custom comments but I found it took a lot of effort with little indication it helped (like in this case they took no actions from your helpful input). I find the bullet point list of the basics (in-depth, reliable, secondary, independent) on that decline is clear indication of what they need to consider. I also welcome users if they are new, add a Teahouse link, and answer 99% of questions asked on my talk page. I decided (IMHO) it was better to spend my time reviewing/improving other submissions so more submitters got help/feedback quicker than fewer getting more custom advice that was mostly ignored. In an ideal world of enough reviewers and a minimal !queue yes I agree custom help is preferable, but we are far from that place. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 14:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources. Reliable sources are required so that information can be verified. If you need help with referencing, please see Referencing for beginners and Citing sources. GeorgeBergerson (talk) 00:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This board is for discussion about the operation of the AFC process. Please ask for assistance at the AFC help desk. 331dot (talk) 00:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, AFC folks,

I just noticed that Shewasafairy was reecently blocked and on their talk page they have discussions with editors whose drafts they reviewed. They even kept a log, User:Shewasafairy/AfC log. But I can't find their name on the AFC Participants list. Was their name recently removed or were they never an accepted AFC reviewer? I was wondering if the drafts they looked at should be re=reviewed. However, I can see that I'm tla was recently removed from the Participants list so they were an approved reviewer but they also had a log, User:I'm tla/AfC log that I thought might be reviewed in case there was any paid editing occurring. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I failed to scroll up to see this discussion with I'm tla above this one. But, honestly even though you all know about the block/sock issuesfor a few days now, my concerns remain. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I just said elsewhere, Shewasafairy got AFC rights automatically when they were granted NPR here.
Yes, we've not really got around to discussing rechecking their usage of advanced rights, that I am aware of. There are multiple editors involved, so everyone may be individually doing spot checks, which I have done a few of myself. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 06:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've quickly gone through Shewasafairy's acceptances. A bit of a mixed bag, a few borderline cases, a couple of solid ones, and some that have either been approved by NPP or are awaiting patrol (most were autopatrolled by Shewasafairy). One I moved back to drafts, as it seemed like the subject might be notable, but the sources just weren't there. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just went through and unpatrolled any suspicious Shewasafairy NPP patrols (NCORP, BLPs). I'm tla was not an NPP. I think this is sufficient to make sure that all of the articles get scrutiny. AFC accepts will get checked again by a random NPP so should be safe to leave alone. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I deployed a small update to the AFC helper script tonight. The two main things in this deploy are 1) there is now a check box to copy over comments to the talk page, and 2) better autofill of a person's name in the DEFAULTSORT box on the accept screen. I have a bunch more in the pipeline. Will keep you posted. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have been following via the storm of git emails recently. Good work at getting some progress on these outstanding issues. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 09:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's an issue where AFCH is adding the section header without a line break. I've opened a ticket. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that come off as a bit curt, didn't it? Thanks to the AFCH maintainers who implemented the copying of comments to the talk page; I think a lot of reviewers, including me, will be pleased to hear it! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your message was fine. Thanks for quickly reporting on GitHub. I think I got the fix out in 13 minutes from when I got the GitHub email :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New Page Patrol | May 2024 Articles Backlog Drive
On 1 May 2024, a one-month backlog drive for New Page Patrol will begin. Barnstars will be awarded based on the number of articles patrolled. Barnstars will also be granted for re-reviewing articles previously reviewed by other patrollers during the drive. Each review will earn 1 point. Interested in taking part? Sign up here.
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– DreamRimmer (talk) 16:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: If you are an AfC reviewer and don't have NPP rights but believe you can help out, please check out the granting requirements for NPP. If you meet the criteria, you are welcome to apply at WP:PERM/NPP. Thanks :) – DreamRimmer (talk) 16:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]