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It was discontinued in New Zealand in August 2021, and at the time was reduced to the Prius Prime plug-in hybrid model, with the regular hybrid discontinued in 2020. It was discontinued due to slow sales as only 38 were sold nationally between January and July 2021.
The Prius was discontinued in Australia in May 2022 after 21 years because other Toyota hybrid models were selling well and its unique selling point had been lost..
That's pretty good. I normally put in the location field too (New Zealand or Australia). But it's as good as the majority of references we have. Well done. Stepho talk 20:08, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seems fine to me. The refs appear to be reasonably reliable, however the discontinuation being caused by the loss of the unique selling point is arguably unsupported. I would suggest looking over MOS:OVERLINK, I don't think any of the WLs you've added should be included here. Cheers. IPBilly (talk) 21:27, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"The Toyota Corolla Verso is a compact MPV produced by the Japanese manufacturer Toyota between 2001 and 2009. The first generation Corolla Verso..."
"The Toyota Corolla Verso is a car produced by the Japanese manufacturer Toyota between 2001 and 2009. Described in the motor trade as a compact MPV, the first generation Corolla Verso..."
The reason of the changes generally are "remove WP:JARGON from MOS:FIRST sentence of lead to avoid confusing non-expert readers." My comments are:
1. I understand MPV is not a common term in several regions such as North America, however I want to point out that in places where the term is commonly used it probably does not take an "expert" to understand it, it's as understandable as "SUV" in some regions.
2. Maybe it is a jargon, but as long as there's a link explaining what that means, I think it wouldn't cause much confusion. I looked through articles from other WikiProjects such as WikiProjects Ships, and they use jargons in the first sentence just fine. For example, in USS Indianapolis (CA-35) (a high traffic, high-importance article) it says:
I'm not a ship expert, I have no idea what Portland-class means in the first sentence, but there is a link that I can follow so now I know.
3. How about other terms such as "SUV" or "crossover SUV"? Why is "MPV" a jargon but "crossover SUV" isn't? As the article Crossover (automobile) pointed out, in some regions they don't distinguish crossover and SUV, so the usage of such term might also be confusing for some readers. But currently there is no concern whether "SUV" or "crossover SUV" is a WP:JARGON.
So I would like to propose that any of these changes to be revised or reverted because it currently creates discrepancies with the rest of automobile articles. Any input is welcomed. Andra Febrian (talk) 07:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, I too would put MPV in the same class as SUV - technically jargon but practically everybody knows what it is. I think Americans prefer to call them mini-vans. But, as you said, that what links are for. I really hate phrases like "Described in the motor trade". We could put that in the front of almost any description in any automobile article but it just clutters things up and doesn't actually add anything. I do think his heart is in the right place but it's not quite working. Stepho talk 07:45, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In my view essentially any term which isn't "car" or "van" or "truck" or "automobile" or the like is jargon for the purposes of the MOS:FIRST statement of the MOS:LEAD. The opening subject-verb-object formation of the article should be as clear as possible to as broad an audience as possible without getting dragged down by convoluted qualifiers that in many cases may reduce opportunities for MOS:COMMONALITY. Terms like "multi-purpose vehicle" or "coupé" or "SUV" are overly-precise for that context, even if they can be appropriately used later in the lead or even the first sentence. It's also worth remembering that many readers may (for numerous reasons) not be able to see the images in the article, in which case immediately establishing the general subject of the article without going into specifics is far more important as a MOS:ACCESS issue. I will admit it's probably unnecessary to state that something is "described in the motor trade as [x]", although my goal with that wording was to reassure non-expert readers that they aren't abnormally ignorant for not knowing specialist terminology which may not be commonly used in their dialect. I strongly dispute the claim that "practically everybody knows" the meaning of these terms. I have repeatedly had friends, family, and acquaintances ask me for help regarding car-buying decisions specifically because they've been overwhelmed and confused by terms like "saloon" or "crossover" being used instead of WP:PLAINENGLISH. The ship examples are a case of WP:OTHERSTUFF but they should probably be amended so the opening statement includes a word like "ship" or "boat" too. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:20, 14 June 2022 (UTC) HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC) HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:32, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically addressing "minivan" as a term here, my only real concern with that in the opening statement of most articles is that it may give the impression to non-Americans that the subject of the article is a small commercial vehicle rather than a passenger car, but I think it's far clearer in most cases than "multi-purpose vehicle" (which to the non-initiated could mean frankly anything) or "people carrier" (which is relatively commonly understood in the UK to mean "car with more than five seats" but probably sounds more like a type of public transportation vehicle to speakers of other dialects). This can relatively easily be addressed though. I think "minivan" should specifically be avoided in articles about vehicles manufactured by the British Motor Corporation, British Leyland, the Rover Group, or BMW on the grounds that it is far more likely in those specific cases that it could mislead readers into believing that the article's subject is in some way derived from or related to the Mini (original or new), although given WP:ENGVAR this is unlikely to be an issue for most of those examples. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:52, 14 June 2022 (UTC) HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC) HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 10:53, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I believe most “Americans” use “minivan” and “MPV” means very little. I think there is some serious ENGVAR here. I also notice that none of the three examples, Espace, Eurovan, and Verso, show what language they’re written in on the talk page. Sammy D III (talk) 11:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I too agree that these changes should be reverted, but in thinking about this I changed my mind several times. Limiting every road going vehicle to "car" or "van" or "truck" or "automobile" is overly broad and would be no different than the opening sentence for a dog breed being "XXX is a sub-varient of meat-eating animal commonly domesticated by humans" or every cellphone article beginning with "XXX is a portable communications device" rather than "android based smartphone". However, I generally agree with some of the accessibility and ENGVAR considerations as well as despise acronyms and think for purposes of the first sentence they should be spelled out. IPBilly (talk) 16:12, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I'm not arguing that the opening sentence fragment should be strictly limited to "the [model name] is a car" or the like, it's just that the opening sentence fragment should always include one of those near-universally understood terms and that any adjectives included before that term should be ones which are similarly likely to be universally understood (ie. "the [model name] is a battery-electric car" or "the [model name] is a two-seater sports car") and limited in quantity to avoid confusing people (so "the [model name] is a four-door five-seater front-engine rear-wheel-drive compact executive sports saloon car" should be avoided in favour of "the [model name] is a four-door car" or something with plenty of WP:COMMONALITY). Regarding the "android-based smartphone" example, that works reasonably well because it still has the word "smartphone" in it, which is commonly understood by the general public. "Multi-purpose vehicle" does not clearly establish to a non-expert whether the subject is an automobile or a train or a blimp or a ship or a space rocket, so it should be established that the "vehicle" being referred to in that term is a type of automobile first. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 16:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC) HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this opinion and the example (as well as other) edits are at odds with each other. I do agree that the number of adjectives should be limited. While "multi-purpose vehicle" may be ambiguous on its face, I do not agree that without explicitly stating that the subject is an automobile a non-expert would be lead to believe "multi-purpose vehicle" would encompass your examples. Furthermore, if that were the case, even terms such as "car" and "van" might need further clarification lest they be confused for passenger car (rail), railroad car, railcar, elevator car, box car, box truck, box van, or road train. IPBilly (talk) 18:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In this specific case I see nothing wrong with saying, "The Corolla Verso is a MPV based on Toyotas...". MPV is specific enough for many readers and it can always be linked to the parent article. This is a case where we should be careful regarding what to call the vehicle based on market. Consider 3 cases, North America, Japan and UK/Europe. I think MPV is really a UK English term. As for other European languages, I don't know if their term for an MPV is a roughly literal translation or if it's a totally different word. For example is it a BMW "Estate" or "Station Wagon". Neither term is a literal translation of the German name so I wouldn't favor one vs the other. I would apply the same standard if we are talking about a Japanese car that is sold both in Europe and North America. However, if we are talking about a minivan/MPV that was not sold in North America I would tend to use the UK terms. Consider what it would be called in it's primary English speaking market and use that. Chrysler minivan, Renault MPV. I would avoid terms that aren't common or come off as a marketing term to avoid calling something an SUV or (shudder) a station wagon. Things like "Sport activity vehicle" or "personal luxury coupe". Springee (talk) 17:53, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Generally agree. The pages WP:CARCLASS and Car classification are generally informative, specifically the table showing various US/UK/European equivalencies and the preferred usage. As "MPV" is an official Euro NCAP class I don't think (at least when spelled out) that it's any less common, or more ambiguous, than "sports car". IPBilly (talk) 18:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. When compact MPV is linked, any uncertainty over what it means is easily resolved by reading the article. Yes, they're still called minivans in North America, although there are few left on the market. And, realistically, an average American confused about what a compact MPV is will look at the lead photo and have a pretty good idea. "Described in the motor trade" is cumbersome wording that offers nothing to the reader (and, as mentioned above, "motor trade" is no less jargon than any vehicle classification). --Sable232 (talk) 21:40, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am well aware of that. The fact remains that the phrase "described in the motor trade as" provides the reader with no additional understanding whatsoever. --Sable232 (talk) 21:44, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Concerns regarding sourcing
Another concern that I have here is that an awful lot of cars just don't fit into neat little boxes where a single term can definitely be said to describe a car with both maximum precision and accuracy. Trying to find sources for the Honda Stream, Mitsubishi Space Star, and Nissan Almera Tino articles just now I found that different sources had plenty of different terms to describe them with (or indeed the same source will use multiple different terms), and that's just the sources that are easy to grab in web searches for twenty-year-old cars. Part of why I'm keen on starting articles by saying "the Saab 900 is a car" or "the Bedford Rascal is a van" is the various WP:MOS aspects I bought up before (particularly MOS:ACCESS), but there's also the issue of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to consider. Avoiding WP:OR means looking at sources, but that's often likely to reveal a big jumble of different terms used to describe a car (especially if one focuses on independent reviews rather than news articles regurgitating press-releases), and picking one of those as definitive or trying to smash them all together into one descriptor is likely to be WP:SYNTH. That's where the accuracy and precision aspect comes in: It's better to use a term we can be confident is accurate (like "automobile") than to risk compromising on accuracy by trying to maximise precision from the very MOS:FIRST sentence fragment. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 11:20, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
After having a go at adding sources for the article on the Opel Meriva (which is more recent than the aforementioned models and thus has more sources that are easier to find) my concerns about WP:SYNTH regarding car classifications has only increased. Prescribing every car a single definitive class in the infobox seems exceedingly likely to result in cases of WP:SYNTH in a well-sourced article and to be a magnet for WP:OR in a poorly-sourced one. I know WP:OTHERSTUFF, but one place to start would be to look at how music infoboxes are handled: Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (a featured article) lists four genres in its infobox, not just one. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:32, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is true that most vehicle classes in WikiProject Automobiles are based on WP:OR, with nitpicked source, or sometimes by WP:BRD. But this is definitely a tricky issue to solve as you said. One vehicle could be considered a mid-size in one region, subcompact or small in the other, or compact elsewhere. Of course writing multiple classes to represent different views in different sources is not a solution either, one is that it further confuses readers and once we do that for articles that already included multiple vehicle classes (example: Suzuki Vitara) it would become an exhausting list. With music genres it's acceptable because genres are generally short words. Long story short I couldn't come up with a solution for this. Andra Febrian (talk) 07:39, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seeking consensus for a new field in the automobile infobox
Hello! I'm seeking for consensus to add a new field in the automobile infobox, which is 'model_code'. Model codes of vehicles are already incorporated in many infoboxes of car articles, just not in a dedicated field which provides no context, causes clutter and problems in referencing. If you would like express support for or object to the proposal, then you are strongly encouraged to do so at the talk page. Thank you!
Andra Febrian (talk) 10:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]