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WikiProject Indonesia (Rated Project-class)
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Indonesia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Indonesia and Indonesia-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 Project  This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.

Proposed page move of Java to Java (disambiguation)

This wikiproject may be interested in this discussion. Talk:Java (disambiguation)#Requested move 28 February 2021 Eopsid (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Oof. Thanks for bring that to our attention. What a proposal.. --Dan Carkner (talk) 23:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Weight of rudder theory of Silkair Flight 185

Please see Talk:SilkAir_Flight_185#Introduction:_Suggest_to_remove_last_part for questions over WP:WEIGHT of the rudder malfunction theory of Silkair Flight 185. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:21, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Category:Bandung Conference attendees was deleted unanimously (only heard of it after the fact). Thoughts?

I only noticed after the fact, when someone removed the category from an article I follow, that the Category for people who attended the 1955 Bandung Conference was deleted. Now, this isn't only an Indonesian matter of course, but I thought maybe I could bring it to the attention here first (where, unfortunately no one thought to mention it when it was nominated to be deleted). Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_April_16#Category:Bandung_Conference_attendees IMO, this was a mistake. This wasn't just any conference as you all probably know. But the people voting to delete it seem to think it is. Actually an number of world leaders who never otherwise met came together at this conference and it was pretty important for the third world movement etc. Thoughts? Is there any way to appeal this kind of thing? I took a look at the process and it seems they don't want you to appeal it just if you disagree with the decision.--Dan Carkner (talk) 23:29, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The deletion has little to do with the importance of the event. The point is if attendance is a defining feature of the topic (here: the leaders/politicians/diplomats who attended). We don't have cats for the participants of the Congress of Vienna or Woodstock either. I agree with the editor who suggested to listify the information. –Austronesier (talk) 13:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
I'll let it be then. For me it seems equally important to have international level ones like that (and other major landmarks like First International, Congress of Vienna, etc) represented as small local ones like Category:Delegates to the 1851 Indiana constitutional convention but if they are disapproved by Wikipedia policy for some reason then so be it.Dan Carkner (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

New Page Patrol

New Page Patrol needs experienced volunteers
  • New Page Patrol is currently struggling to keep up with the influx of new articles, including Indonesia related articles. We could use a few extra hands on deck if you think you can help.
  • Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time but it requires a good understanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines; Wikipedia needs experienced users to perform this task and there are precious few with the appropriate skills. Even a couple reviews a day can make a huge difference.
  • If you would like to join the project and help out, please see the granting conditions and review our instructions page. You can apply for the user-right HERE. --John B123 (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Need help on creating a new article: Indonesian nationalism

Hi. I'm new here, and I really want to create a new article about Indonesian nationalism. Since there's no article about it, I might need your help to create it. Even many countries in ASEAN have their own form of nationalism, for example, The Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, and Myanmar. Mhatopzz (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2021

I agree. It was on my to do list for the last year too although I haven't had the energy to tackle it. Happy to contribute especially regarding the 1910s-1920s which I've researched the most.--Dan Carkner (talk) 13:48, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Alright, should I make a draft or a stub article? Mhatopzz (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2021
Hi, you can start it as you like and I can give feedback and start to contribute. Maybe a draft would be better than a stub for a large and possibly nebulous topic though. Since we are in opposite time zones I think, we will probably not be editing at the same time anyways. If I may suggest a good framework for the article would be not only the Filipino one you linked, but also African nationalism and Indian nationalism. The reason I say this is because in many senses Indonesian nationalism is not tied to a specific ethnic group and may have more resemblance to those types than the Vietnam, Khmer and Thai ones you linked. Thanks --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:16, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Here you go Indonesian nationalism anyone can contribute, your welcome

Will take a look this weekend thanks.Dan Carkner (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi, Dan Carkner do you still want to continue it? because I still need help lol, I might want to ping someone to request for help, but I don't know who to ask Mhatopzz (talk) 1:30, 3 June 2021
I definitely can, I did not want to start the core of the article which you seemed passionate about and arrange it the way I see it, as a non Indonesian. If you want I can just start plugging some citations into general subsections and you can rearrange them and further discussion can occur.--Dan Carkner (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

1883 eruption of Krakatoa

There are talk page comments concerning the current B-class article classification and citation issues for anyone interested. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:07, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Amir Machmud

This article is in need of sources if anyone has time. See Talk:Amir Machmud.4meter4 (talk) 00:02, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move for Boven-Digoel

Hi folks, this may be of interest here, I am suggesting that Boven-Digoel be moved to a more descriptive article name for a prison camp/concentration camp. Please let me know what you think at Talk:Boven-Digoel. --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:30, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Jihane Almira Chedid

How do I tell the author that being a DPR Ambassador is not the same as being a DPR speaker or member? --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 13:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Eka Supria Atmaja

Hello, I recently created an article for Eka Supria Atmaja. Any help improving it would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 01:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I did my best based on current news articles or ones from a few years ago about his electoral activities, but I could not find much else about him in books or databases.--Dan Carkner (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Indonesia has one of the YOUNGEST prime ministers in the world?

TIL: The point of this thread is to ask whether it is suitable to include Ide Anak Agung Gde Agung in the List of youngest state leaders since 1900

So I've been thinking about this for a while and it took me some time to put this into word. As we know, Ide Anak Agung Gde Agung was a Balinese aristocrat who became the Prime Minister of East Indonesia. What's interesting is his age when he assumed the office: he was born on 21 July 1921 and he was installed on 15 December 1947. That means he was 26 years, 4 months when he became prime minister. For comparison, Sanna Marin, who was hailed as world's youngest prime minister (should've specified it as world's youngest incumbent prime minister) is 35 years old. And looking at this list, List of youngest state leaders since 1900, Agung is probably the second youngest prime minister in the world!

At first sight this seems ridiculous. It is common knowledge that East Indonesia is a Dutch puppet and the indigenuous officials can't do anything. Yes, that is on paper, but when we examine further East Indonesia is de jure until 27 August 1949, the date of RIS formation (and coincidentally the date when Agung ended his tenure as prime minister). There were no state body above the federal states (NICA isn't a state and the relations between Netherlands and the federal states is de jure an equal one). Please give your thoughts on this. (Sorry my English is a bit bad) --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 12:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Indonesian Wikipedia

Maybe many here, especially native Indonesians who edit more in English Wikipedia, would be interested in a discussion I just created here (unlink date per WP:DATELINK and simplification of lead sentence parenthetical phrases). Thanks. Hddty (talk) 07:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Boven Digoel redirect - thoughts?

Hi folks, I think it would be worthwhile to have an Indonesian perspective on this (or Papuan if there are any of you on here!). Due to the renaming of the article about the camp as Boven-Digoel concentration camp, Boven-Digoel is now a disambiguation page between the camp and the regency. What do you think of my suggestion on Talk:Boven-Digoel that the Regency may the primary topic at this point? --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Religion articles and sections

There have been a lot of uncited changes to religion numbers in Indonesian articles recently. Mostly seems to be people increasing the percentages of their favourite religions. If it goes on, there might be a need for some page protection, but I'm inclined to wait and see if they get bored. Any thoughts? Stay well everybody. Davidelit (Talk) 10:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

At the current level of disruption, I think "watch and revert" still works. And then follow the track of the disruptive editor for more unsourced changes.
Another problem is with old unnoticed changes, so sometimes incorrect data becomes part of the "stable version". Recently, I dug up[1] the original sourced figures for Minahasan people, although I had to trust the IP that their data really corresponds to the source. –Austronesier (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Portuguese colonialism in the East Indies

hey, I need your help and confirmation, does this article related or made under the context of Indonesian history or not? Mhatopzz (talk) 02:30, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the intent was for it to be about Portuguese colonialism in Indonesia. Then the word "Indonesia" was removed by someone who objected to it being used about events 4 centuries ago, and it was about the "East Indies", hence today's argument about why haven't we talked about India, Macau and Malaysia (is there an *eye roll* symbol on wikipedia?). However, your change of article title to "Portuguese colonialism in Indonesian history" is a good one, in my opinion. thank you. The conversation is better continued at the article talk page.--Merbabu (talk) 08:19, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Cities and regencies article improvement

I've been working on several regencies and cities for a while and at least made them C-class articles. I really hope we could at least make all provincial capital cities in Indonesia C-class by the end of this year. There also seems to be many outdated informations that need some update. Anyone onboard? Nyanardsan (talk) 08:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Ali Kalora

I just partly translated Ali Kalora. I think its a pretty big deal that he was shot to death, would it worth to try inserting it to ITN? At least at minimum we can try to make it into RD. Apologize for the tag. @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Gerald Waldo Luis Nyanardsan (talk) 05:53, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nyanardsan: wee bit late - but RDs are “as long as the article is accepted and not full of yellow tags it’s fine” so you don’t really have to ask others before nomming RD. Juxlos (talk) 08:04, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Big mess

Here's a challenge: History_of_the_Malay_language. One big ramble of barely decipherable musings. About as anti-wikipedia as you can get. Who's game? --Merbabu (talk) 23:55, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Oof. I don't have it on hand (borrowed it from the library before) but I would definitely recommend The Indonesian Language: Its History and Role in Modern Society by James Sneddon as a reliable source for whoever wants to tackle this. It's a book-length history of it. --Dan Carkner (talk) 19:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

National symbols of Indonesia

Many (most?) items listed here are accompanied by their Indonesian translation. Is that really what we should be doing? I would have thought not. I did a spot check of (an admittedly small sample) of the counterpart articles of France and Germany, and translations are not provided. The following terms, amongst others, are provided with Indonesian translations: "Unity in diversity", "red and white", "Jasminum sambac", "moon orchid", "national animal", "national bird", "diamond", etc, etc. Sure, if there is a proper noun or a non-translatable item, that's fine, but most are not these cases.

And casting a wider net, even in the Germany article, a translation of German (language) as "Deutsch" is not provided. Yet across the Indonesian "project" the articles are riddled with (what I think are superfluous) translations into Indonesian. --Merbabu (talk) 02:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

We should keep the Indonesian name whenever there is a significant mismatch that needs a literal translation (e.g. for sang merah putih (lit. 'the honored red-white') , or in the case of a gross but established mistranslations such as "Unity in diversity" (Bhinneka Tunggal Ika which actually means 'they are different [yet] they are one'). In some cases, the English translations are simply wrong ("national bird" for satwa langka).
I agree that we should keep original language clutter to a minimum, especially when it doesn't really serve our readers. If an Indonesian equivalent is commonly mentioned in English-language sources, we can add it here for easy reference. But if it predominantly/exclusively appears in Indonesian texts (which the average non-Indo/Malay reader of en.WP can't read), it adds little information value here.
Btw, clutter just invites more clutter, see here[2]. –Austronesier (talk) 10:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of what people are doing in articles about German topics, I myself am a fan of including non-English language text in parentheses where the article refers to a specific foreign language concept or proper name of a thing, even if it adds to clutter. Perhaps in this specific case it can be trimmed down a bit by using the version of the language template that does not link to the Indonesian language article every single time. As in (satwa langka) vs (Indonesian: satwa langka). Dan Carkner (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Created a few Presidential inauguration articles

Mind if someone group them in a single category?

More articles coming soon. Mhatopzz (talk) 12:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

National Hero Backlog Drive (again?)

So, there's four new figures named National Hero again [3] this year. I've been thinking lately since many of National Hero biographies are barely start or stub, we probably could do a more organized backlog drive. As in, having barnstar as reward for it or something. It would be good if there's incentives for members of Wikiproject Indonesia to do deep researches on them and make this actual annual backlog drive like some big Wikiprojects did.

There's a dire need for reliable sources for these articles from books or historical records outside of articles about them in news when they are given the title. Given the fact that these figure's historical records and biographies were researched by TP2G in regional and national level consist of historians and actual academicians, Im sure we could find decent amount of information about them if we look hard enough.

What do you all think? Sorry for the tag @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Juxlos @Merbabu Nyanardsan (talk) 08:29, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Sure, but I will leave it to him @The man from Gianyar. Mhatopzz (talk) 11:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm currently juggling three different articles to work on, Ali Sastroamidjojo, History of Bandung, and Ali Wardhana, but I might be able to do Usmar Ismail, but that's pretty much it, @User:Mhatopzz @User:Nyanardsan The man from Gianyar (talk) 12:08, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
For Tombolotutu [id], there are at least two good sources:
If time allows, I'll try to write up something. I have some affinity to the topic since the Lauje language of Tinombo (Parigi Moutong Regency) is part of my wider research area, and I have thus become familiar with the ramifications of power between inner hill people, indigenous coastal groups, and non-indigenous coastal groups in that region. The article by Nourse gives an interesting alternative view to the official heroic historiography: as in other known cases, the non-indigenous aristocrat Tombolotutu turned into a rebel primarily not for idealistic reasons, but because the Dutch (supported by the indigenous elite) gave their favor to one of his rivals in the succession to the title or raja in the petty Kingdom of Moutong. –Austronesier (talk) 12:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I'll try with Aji Muhammad Idris myself since Im quite familiar with history of East Kalimantan. Also btw what about establishing barnstar for this Wikiproject? Nyanardsan (talk) 12:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
There are no rules on barnstars - you can award someone a barnstar simply for existing, unless you want to design a, say “National Barnstar of Indonesia”. Juxlos (talk) 13:11, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I can't say 17th-19th century local heroes is my area of knowledge, unfortunately. Juxlos (talk) 12:22, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I will be trying to write a bunch of Indonesia-related articles for Wikipedia Asian Month 2021 anyways so I don't mind tackling the remaining one Raden Arya Wangsakara, even if he's not my usual type of research it shouldn't be too hard to summarize what is in print about him. Dan Carkner (talk) 16:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I was starting to work based on the ID Wikipedia article about him but unless I'm mistaken it seems to be copy pasted directly from the Kompas article it cites as its only source. Sigh! Dan Carkner (talk) 23:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I have created the article at Aria Wangsakara. There really wasn't anything about him in any of the databases I have access to; just some Indonesian books of dubious quality and news articles from the recent announcements. Dan Carkner (talk) 01:44, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

English vs Dutch...

Hi there - i picked up on this edit the other day. It seems there may be more.

In essence, it seems in this edit that Dutch has been favoured over English. Ie, Jambi Residency has been converted to Djambi Residency. Or perhaps the argument is that we use Djambi as this was the name at the time. I'm leaning towards favouring the modern name, but I'm interested in other arguments. --Merbabu (talk) 20:54, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

The basic rule is: we do as reliable English-language sources do. A quick scan through commons:Category:Old maps of Southeast Asia indicates that English from back then also seems to favour Jambi. There's even an incidental Jambee, but let's not go there. --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:50, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
Hi there. There is an important distinction in your reply: "English back then". For historical entities, should we be using English from back then, or contemporary English? Although in this the Jambi/Djambi case, you note back then also favours Jambi. Interesting. --Merbabu (talk) 20:04, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
When I read this last night, I looked up on Google Books for both spellings and automatically set the upper date limit to 1945. I guess that's our nostalgic inner self. But actually, this cutoff is not supported by our naming conventions. Of course, modern English-language sources have equal weight as long as they discuss the historical entities. And if modern sources retroactively use modern spellings even though contemporary English-language sources back then followed the Dutch (or Indonesian Republican) spelling, we should give preference to usage in modern sources. –Austronesier (talk) 21:25, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
I was the one who changed from Jambi to Djambi, because it seemed to me it would never have been written Jambi in its time, owing to it being changed because of spelling reforms after 1948. I found relatively little attention was paid to residencies in English sources and those that did were inconsistent with spelling. Didn't even think of historical English maps. At the moment it was the only Residency that had its own stub and I thought if I was going to create more it would be consistent to use their name on paper from the time in the same way we have Kyiv the city, but Kiev Governorate, and so on. And to distinguish the historical geographic unit from the current day one. But whatever people think is the best way to do it I'm willing to abide by going forward. Dan Carkner (talk) 21:30, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello folks, no one has seemed to have any comment, so I will continue naming the obsolete residencies with their Dutch spelling. That is the approach used by Cribb in his historical atlas of Indonesia: "I have generally preserved colonial-era spelling for Dutch administrative names, mainly because many of them have no contemporary equivalent, and they cannot be modernized in the way that place names can. Thus, because Groote Oost has to be preserved in its original spelling, so too are the Lampongsche Districten and Bantam, insofar as these were administrative divisions." p. 10 Cribb, R. B. (2000). Historical atlas of Indonesia. Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press. ISBN 0-8248-2111-4. I think there is some logic in using it as a distinction from their present day counterpart even as those will invariably be mentioned in the intro of every residency article. Dan Carkner (talk) 00:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


The attacks on Wikimedia images of Jakarta are continuing: see this latest Wikilawyering assault. If this continues, there will be no images of Jakarta at all soon, and no point in making any further contributions. Any thoughts @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Juxlos @Merbabu @JarrahTree Davidelit (Talk) 04:14, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what to say. Deletion on commons is not a vote, rather we need good policy based arguments. As far as I understand the copy right law in this case, the deletionists have a point. As crazy as the result seems to be. --Merbabu (talk) 11:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree, bizarre to me as well but I do not know enough about the copyright rules to contradict them. The idea that you cannot post your own photo of a national landmark where major events happen...? So if it was in the backdrop of a photo of an event ? Sigh... --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
If it's in the backdrop, it might probably fall under "de minimis" which is cited in the deletion request page. In any case, I am clueless too: how bizarre, how bizarre... –Austronesier (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Soon many more articles will be bereft of pictures. There is no consensus on the Freedom of Panorama (see this and this), but the destruction is still underway. The problem is the lack of admins in the project to fight our corner. Might be time to find another hobby... Davidelit (Talk) 04:20, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
You could always upload a low-resolution copy locally to just en-wiki under the fair use principle. The problem is not a lack of allies, it's simply the Indonesian law versus the Commons principle of files having no restrictions for re-use. You do not want to get into the situation where you use a file and years later are sued for not adhering strictly to the creator/architect's copyright terms. --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

About Soepardjo and Supardjo - WP:MOVE to Soepardjo (born 1929) and Soepardjo (born 1923)? Some other solution?

Hi all,

They are obviously two different people.

WP:ID-SPELLING suggests that most recent spelling of their names should be used. Given that both Soepardjo-s were born in the 1920s, it would appear to me that Van Ophuijsen Spelling System for the digraph "oe" might apply here.

Your opinions? Is there some established policy or guideline I have missed here? Or something else? Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed - very miscible. Juxlos (talk) 13:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
An awkward case. Both are lesser-known figures so I don't think the old/new spelling issue would be the most important factor nor would be the case that one should have one spelling and the other have the other one. Per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Disambiguating they suggest adding year of birth if two people had the same occupation. On the other hand one time I wrote an article about Zinovy Shulman the Soviet singer as there was already the article about Zinovii Shulman the scientist. It's purely arbitrary which article has which spelling, as it is just a slightly different way of transliterating Russian, but in the years since no one has cared.Dan Carkner (talk) 14:49, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
One of the cases where if you don't do it nobody notices and if you do it nobody notices still. Juxlos (talk) 08:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Persaudaraan Setia Hati Terate

Can someone work out what is going on at this article. There are a couple of new editors with differing claims about the leader and the official website of the group. Presumably this is a factional dispute. A brief note by an onlooker is on talk, and I saw it at a request for protection (WP:RFPP). Johnuniq (talk) 06:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Yeah, a leadership dispute that got all the way to the Supreme Court of Indonesia. [4] Juxlos (talk) 05:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Umm, I'm hoping you will know what should be done in the article. If there is a credible dispute, the best thing might to remove text about the leader or the website? Johnuniq (talk) 06:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Probably mention the leader based on the court decision and then note that he faced a leadership challenge, mentioning the court case. Juxlos (talk) 06:25, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Torajan people

I have nominated Torajan people for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 09:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Sarah Azhari 's page up for deletion

Someone decided that Sarah Azhari page must be deleted. Thoughts?

  • I personally support the deletion, the nominator has a point. She is mostly known for her controversy, most of the results are gossip pieces/attention-grabbing infotaiments which have questionable quality, the source in current article is not any better Nyanardsan (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
  • hi, dont know if you read the new resources i did find, let me know what you think.

[1] [2] [3] [4] Amoeba69th (talk) 20:38, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Read WP:CANVAS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:59, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@AndyTheGrump: Be assured that the regulars of this project are not easily impressed by non-neutral notifications. Most of these actually turn into a boomerang in the shape of !votes that diametrically go against the intentions of the OP :) –Austronesier (talk) 00:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
read and got it andythegrump and thanks austronesier for reviewing the sources as non-neutral, right ? Amoeba69th (talk) 02:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Featured article nomination

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sjafruddin Prawiranegara/archive1. It would be great to get more folks familiar with Indonesia topics to take a look at it. Cheers, ((u|Sdkb))talk 19:37, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

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