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On 8 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Željko Ražnatović. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
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This article offers no sources for its claims. Some of them are obvious anti-Arkan lies (e.g. convicted murderer). The rest consists of hardly checkable allegations and rumours( e.g. father beat him, met criminals abroad etc.). Though his role as a national hero is mentioned it remains totally unclear how a person characterized in that way can become a hero. None of the war crime allegations had been proofed in a trial. Allegations of war crimes and even investigations against other politicians exist (e.g. Sharon). But it is not the task of Wikipedia to comment, improve or substitutes court procedures.
You have to be nuts to believe that Arkan did not commit such atrocities. First, I can cite the US Defense Department, US Department of State, and Richard Holbrooke. A few years ago there was a special History Channel documentary covering Arkan, providing pictures and video of Arkan and his forces comitting the listed atrocities.
I have seen the History Channel "documentary". Unlike many people who are editing this page I've lived in Serbia during the 90s and I've even had the chance to meet Arkan and years later his widow. Now the History Channel should be ashamed of how bad, and unacurate their documentary was or how misinformed the so called experts who got to talk were. I've seen it a few times and I was I was to start making the list of the lies they said I'd just get bored.--212.200.204.254 17:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"In fact Arkan was convicted on death by West. NATO commandos planned to kidnap Arkan with apache helicopter. After capture he would be tranferred to The Hague where under torture he would confessed his crimes. Then they would hang him in jail, which would be explained to public as his suicide because of hopeless situation in which he founded himself. However they gived up because of appraisal that such operation would have very high risk factor."
... where does this information come from? Given that these are highly controversial allegations, sources ought to be produced to back them up. As it is this paragraph sounds like slightly ridiculous properganda (by 83.146.48.113, 2004-07-11 15:50:55)
I conclude that a secondary author has addedd dubious information to an article begun by a primary, and more reliable, author. (by 218.101.15.155 2004-09-10 07:34:20)
The second part of the article has no objectivity whatsoever. It is simply the worst wikipedia biography I read about such a controversial figure. The article simply treats Arkan as a hero, as the most admirable Serb ever lived. Every sentence is soaked with a fanatic admiration for Arkan, the way he killed his prisoners, the way he slept with so many women. The personal quotes section is full of idiotic remarks that would appeal to a 5 year old. Seriously, this article is a joke, and should be removed.
I'm not sure why English texts so often transliterate his name into Raznatovic when it's supposed to be Raznjatovic (some other diacritics notwithstanding). The Serbian letter њ is different from н and it's differently pronounced. --Joy [shallot] 22:27, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I find the transliteration (if that is what this is called: Željko Ražnatović) very annoying. I would prefer that the English article be written in English characters: Zeljio Raznatovic. I see absolutely no reason to annoy readers with nonsense like Željko Ražnatović . (hmmm...of course, I do have a 2 tagged from birth to me by my parent.) Hag2 (talk) 18:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not trying to be rude here, but am i the only one that thinks the 2nd half of the article has a certain pro-Arkan bias? (by Timon 2004-09-10 10:23:14)
This article presents myth as a fact, the following example is highly dubious. It is more likely that arkan was freed as his father was a general in JNA "Arkan was unnoficialy employed as an undercover agent from 1973, assassinating political emigrants and opponents of the ruling Communist regime." (by 24.85.62.165 2005-03-21 05:49:42)
The second part of the article has no objectivity whatsoever. It is simply the worst wikipedia biography I read about such a controversial figure. The article simply treats Arkan as a hero, as the most admirable Serb ever lived. Every sentence is soaked with a fanatic admiration for Arkan, the way he killed his prisoners, the way he slept with so many women. The personal quotes section is full of idiotic remarks that would appeal to a 5 year old. Seriously, this article is a joke, and should be removed.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.147.6.97 (talk • contribs)
Being of Eastern European decent, I love this line: "he illegally emigrated to Western Europe, like most eastern europeans hoping to find fortune through a criminal career." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.97.49.222 (talk) 01:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I found it offensive too and took it out. I don't know that there is any evidence to support the statement as it remains, saying that he went west with criminal intentions, is there support for this? Semodisesamo (talk) 19:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I was browsing this page casually and came to the same conclusion as another before me: the English is bad. Could whoever wrote this, initially or in contribution, please review it? -JH. 13, Jan 2005 (by 61.204.250.3)
That photo "Arkan and his Tigers" is copyrighted by Ron Haviv (see Blood and Honey website). I'm barely competent at Wiki (and I don't have much time) or I'd try dealing with it. I think a link to Haviv's photoessay would be a good thing, but using his photo? Not. - An Academic (by 69.177.32.147 2005-07-19 13:32:45)
I think it should be alright to use it.
Željko Ražnatović was never indicted for his alleged criminal life so I don't think an encyclopedia is a place where he can be named "war profiteer, mafia supreme boss, black market businessman..." To me it's almost as if someone took a dictionary and looked for the English translation of all the bad adjectives/words they could remember.
Of course he was not going to be indicted by the govrnment he worked for. Officialy he does not have a criminal record between 1992-2000, but one can not say that he was not a 'war profiteer'. It does not have to be documented in any way to be named such, but his increased financial wealth after the Bosnian war, did contribute to this.
OK, so he wasn't indicted by the government he worked for (although as I've mentioned he was only and only to some extent responsible to the National Security Agency), but he was never convicted in the Hague so what happened with "innocent until proven guilty". It's not "innocent until caught." He was never convicted and that's a fact. Now we can say that he was elegedly a war profiteer but that's it.
Since we are talking about times when Serbia was in economic and political chaos, it was hard to document illegal activities, being that government at that time did numerous illegal activities on their own.
I think this article should be deleted and written again by the credible, objective people dealing with historical facts, not just claims from the Western propaganda. 213.244.195.24 01:20, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I think this article is OK, but needs to be put in chronilogical order as someone mentioned earlier.
This article is getting better but it's still long way from sounding like it was written from a neutral point of view.--212.200.204.254 18:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
130.111.248.43 20:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Adolf Hitler was also not tried.Should we consider him as a innocent??? This article about Arkan is totaly Pro-Fascist Serb.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 23:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The edit which I made concerns Arkan's brutal torture on a non-Serb population. I know this to be untrue, the Tigers had long included Macedonians, Montenegrins, Slav-descended people from the smaller minorities from all republics who did not declare themselves Serbian, as well as a smaller number of Croats and Slovenes.
His ultimate role was not to break Serbia away from the federation but to maintain the federation as Yugoslavia, as such, some of the people who lost their lives were Serbians suspected of the same motives - wishing to break away. Ragusan 15 October 2005
Nobody is saying that Serbia wanted to break away from the federation. But at the same time his ultimate role was not to conserve the federation, since he was not an official member of the JNA (Yugoslav Peoples Army) nor his unit was an official affiliate to the JNA. His presence in Vukovar before, during and after Vukovar Hospital massacre is not an accident.
As I said before, during the war time, many dubious agreements were made involving official army and para-military forces. Since all of 1990s were murky and chaotic, it is very difficult to trace back via documents and written statements who was where and what they were doing at times. Arkan was a protege of the government for years, before being eliminated himself, and therefor it would be unlikely to find something damaging, since they probably made sure that not too many things we'll be linked back to them.
But based on various witnesses' accounts, it is highly unlikely that Arkan chased non-Serb population around with cookies and milk.
130.111.248.43 20:27, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Arkan got his name from a comic about some circus.A tiger in the circus was named Arkan.(btw. that's a Turkish name.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 23:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I've listed this page for cleanup for the reasons listed above, as well as the complete lack of sources and the weasel terms that pass for NPOV. Quinnanya 04:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The part where the author tried to literally translate Arkan's quotes is hillarious. Can somebody get authorization to re-grammatize it? Plus : the number of weasel words and references to his alleged criminal life is way beneath a respectful wikipedia article.
Someone should put that in.
Two questions, why were all of the photos of Arkan removed from the article? I know some were not freely usable (from the famous blood and honey photography series) however I'm pretty sure some of them were. Also, perhaps some mention of where the nickname "Arkan" came from, all said now is some obscure reference to a yet unnamed comic book. NEMT 02:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the statements "of criminals and terrorists" and "as well as all sorts of criminals and dogs-of-war seeking refuge, roberry and easy loot." because it seems POV if this statement has a source then put it up with the source.
This article is still full of NPOV violations and a lot of the information is uncited, I have begun to add ((fact)) tags where references and sources are needed, and I encourage others to do the same. --NEMT 14:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I've never even heard of Željko Ražnatović, but if the article repeatedly mentions that he is known to have been involved in attrocities, shouldn't that be included in the summary paragraph at the top? -- TheMightyQuill 11:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
It's spelled atrocities not attrocities and we're long way from learning the truth about his involvement in the atrocities you've mentioned (If any).
I know that following cannot be accepted as an official source information, but here is an article written by one SAS member witnessing the atrocities involving Arkan himself.
http://garystapleton.blogspot.com/2006/12/blood-fire.html
--82.152.200.103 13:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
That's a fictional story just FYI :) 81.108.103.145 01:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
What makes you say that? Do you know the guy? Just curious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.84.210.211 (talk) 20:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC) Because I think there would be a report for this and not a blog post — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harmony11 (talk • contribs) 13:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
SAS members are not allowed to be published without prior approval from The Home Office. Thus any communication from them is essentially State propaganda by definition. Especially true given the role of the SAS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.156.218 (talk) 22:21, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
An annon keeps on inserting the funny but unencyclopedic list of Arkan's achievements:
"War criminal and mobster" pretty much summarize it all. Nothing of the above stands out of that simple profile. Duja 12:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd say that Arkan definately wasn't a man you could sum up just a few words. My first problem is the term mobster. He was never a high-profile mobster: there were always more powerful and wealthier people than he was. I'm starting to think that after reading this article people from the West will think of Arkan as a Serbian John Gotti. The thing with Arkan is very simple: he was allowed to do some things that he usually wouldn't be allowed in return for the actions he took under the orders of the Serbian National Security agency (during both the 80s and the 90s). As for the term 'paramilitary leader', I say it should be out of the picture for good as his Volunteer Guard wasn't a paramilitary unit. Arkan was given the ordered to start the unit by Jovica Stanišić and Franko Simatović, who were at the time high officials of the Serbian National Security Agency and the Guard was responsible to the command of the Territorial Defense (it is a historical fact so I don't see why someone keeps removing that).--212.200.204.254 18:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C5%BDeljko_Ra%C5%BEnatovi%C4%87&oldid=61728375
The above is the last instance before the quotes were removed. Why was this done? The quotes were one of the best parts of the article and a very interesting reflection on his character and the way that he was percieved by some of the people around him. This should be put back IMO.
Once a Citation Needed tag is entered, a decent time should pass before the statement is removed. Nevertheless, the burden is on the original poster of the statement to provide a source. If there is no source, then basically the statement in question can be deleted with no further ado. That is my opinion, and I am stuck with it. Sincerely, and with great good faith, your friend, GeorgeLouis 15:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
COMPLETELY AGREED I'm sticking tags at the completely ridiculous parts and working some on the POV disaster this still is, but I can't find english results for what the trial of the killer/s found, I can only find in english on the indictments. This article Still needs seroius help and watching. Semodisesamo (talk) 20:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, would someone change them into normal section? Or edit out altogether - I don't think anyone really needs a golden thoughts from a warlord mobster. --HanzoHattori 22:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, what the guy needs instead is a photo. --HanzoHattori 22:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned earlier in the comment on Arkan's involvement in atrocities, I'm aware that this cannot be used as a true reference in regards to the mystery of Arkans death, but its an interesting read that confirms the rumors of UK involvement in the story.
Just an excerpt, to read the rest of the story follow the link below.
"Eight years later Arkan and I were to met again, this time in a Belgrade Hotel Lobby. That Saturday afternoon he breathed his last.The UN investigators found it strange that his assassins had placed a small gold ring with a red stone in his mouth. They assumed it was a gangland hit."
http://garystapleton.blogspot.com/2006/12/blood-fire.html
--82.152.200.103 13:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Arkan
In English, this phrase is ambiguous - meaning either "traveled along side his father to the war" or "warred against his father." Which is it?
67.180.76.224 (talk) 07:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I mean,how sick does someone have to be to accuse his victims of being envy of him???--(GriffinSB) (talk) 04:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Introduction says "was a Serbian career criminal". How can one be a career criminal? There's no such term. I guess the phrase was "was a Serbian career officer" or "was a Serbian career serviceman" and probably changed as an act of vandalism. Netrat (talk) 08:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
What's the correct etymology of Arkan? a Serbian name? a Turkish word? It sounds like "arcane" from Latin arcanus (= "hidden", "secret"), arcanum (= "deep secret wisdom") and arcana Böri (talk) 12:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
It's originally Arabic, and probably brought into the Balkans via the Ottoman Empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gradanin (talk • contribs) 06:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Moved. Biblioworm 21:00, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Željko Ražnatović → Arkan – "Arkan" is a pseudonym/nickname, but in this case I think it is the common name of this person. Per WP:PSEUDONYM, I think the article title should be changed to reflect this. Arkan already redirects to this article. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. Natg 19 (talk) 20:10, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
He came as a volunteer to help Army of Republika Srpska krajina but fled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.238.33 (talk) 19:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 08:58, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Arkan → Željko Ražnatović – Articles have to have name and surname for biographies and not nicknames. 5.43.74.120 (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2022 (UTC) [e]