This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Battle of Valcour Island article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Battle of Valcour Island is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Battle of Valcour Island is part of the Canadian campaign of 1775 series, a featured topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 11, 2011. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
From misnamed duplicate by an anon, preserving here because some details could be added to this article:
"Makeshift rebel green wood navy holds off British advance in Battle of Valcour Island (sometimes called battle of Lake Champlain).
The attempt to take Quebec fell short (but just barely), so in June, 1776 Benedict Arnold began to withdraw south to the northen end of Lake Champlain. The British, led by General Guy Carelton was in hot pursuit, within musket range at one point. Arnold was the last to leave Canada: he rode to the water's edge, shot his horse so as to leave nothing of value for the British, then boarded the last boat for safety at Crown Point
Arnold surmised that the British plan was to control the 130+ mile long Lake Champlain. With Carleton coming from the north, and another army pushing north up the Hudson, New York state would effectively be cut in half - New England would be cut off from the rest of the colonies. Defeating Carleton might be too much to hope for, but if Lake Champlain could be denied Carelton before the weather turned, perhaps he would withdraw to Canada for the winter.
Arnold knew Carleton to be a cautious leader -- perhaps overly cautious. If Carleton could be made to think a major fleet awaited him, it might slow his preparations. So, carpenters and workmen from as far away as Boston and Rhode Island were hired to build "Admiral" Arnold's fleet of 20 ships.
The pace was frantic, so much so that "green" wood had to be used which caused the ships to leak almost immediately. Indian scouts reported the activity to Carleton, who himself began building more ships. As each of Arnold's ships were ready, their maiden trip would be to the north where they would fire off a round or two of cannon in a show of defiance. Sure enough, this caused Carleton to build more of his own ships, even going so far as to disassemble the 3 masted, 18 gun HMS Inflexible carry to Lake Champlain and reassemble it there.
By September, Arnold had 17 ships including his flagship Congress, the 54 foot Philadelphia and 7 more like her and a number of smaller boats, all armed with cannon. All were flat bottoms row galleys of Arnold's own design, but still would be no match for the 18 guns of the HMS Inflexible.
In October, the British began moving south with nearly 10,000 men including British regulars, Canadians, Germans and Iroquios Indians in some 640 flatboats and canoes trailing the Man-o-War. Arnold knew they stood no chance against the Inflexible, so he moved his fleet into the mouth of Valcour Bay.
On October 10th, the British sailed by without seeing it. Arnold let the Inflexible and 2 schooners pass , then opened fire on the smaller boats. They sunk and crippled several ships right off, including one that exploded when an open magazine took a direct hit. The large British lead ships were unable to turn into the tricky winds and were unable to return for for sometime.
The British were suprised but were better trained in naval tactics - some reports have Arnold rushing from gun to gun sighting them for the inexperienced soldiers and militia now sailors. As the large British ships struggled to get into position the gunboats returned fire in a ferocious battle. Arnold's flagship Congress took several hits as did The New York, Philadephia and Jersey. On the Washington, a single officer was the only person still in action.
The battle started just after noon, but it wasnt until dusk that the Inflexible was able to get into position. Several of Arnold's ships concentrated fire on her and caused her to withdraw a bit. As dusk settled, the British bottled up the Armericans in the mouth of the bay with a blockade, content to finish off Arnold's Armada in the morning.
Arnold, as he often did, had other plans. During the night his ships slipped around the flank and rowed south. When the morning came, the bay was empty, but in the distance the American "navy" was rowing for its life.
The British pursued but it took the better part of 2 days to catch up. When they did, The Congress and The Washington held off the entire British fleet while the smaller ships escaped. When The Washington was finally crippled, Arnold had his men row into the wind thru the cardon where it would be difficult for the larger British ships to follow. The Congress and several smaller ships made a mad dash for the nearest shore. Arnold refused to strike his colors and had the Congress burned instead.
The Americans retreated to Fort Ticonderoga. When the British approached, cannon was fired to give the appearance it was well manned and well fortified. With his Indian allies warning of snow and rough water on the lake approaching, Carleton gave up the campaign and withdrew to Canada.
In spite of having built a small navy from scratch, then taking on the world naval superpower with row galleys and fight it to a draw, in terms of 18th Century warfare, Arnold didnt win. The British weren't defeated and it was the Armericans who retreated. He did however accomplish what he set out to do - preventing the 2 British Armies from linking up and cutting the colonies in two. In causing Carleton to withdraw, an entire year was bought giving the Continetals time to fortify and strengthen their hold on northern New York state.
The Continetal Congress didnt quite see it that way and Arnold received some criticism for the "failed" campaign. This was probably partly due to frustration at not a single clear American victory in all of 1776 (as yet), partly that many in Congress didn't like Arnold and partly that this "loss" was also on the heels of his failure to take Quebec.
In June 1997, the last ship unaccounted for -- The Spitfire -- was located."
Stan 07:50, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
In the "Forces assembled" subsection, the American naval force is described as containing eight gondolas, but the link is to an article on Venetian gondolas, sculled shallow draft transport vehicles with no military value, and there is no indication in that article that gondolas ever had a military purpose. There is a disambiguation page, but the article on Venetian gondolas is the only one pertaining to a naval context. Can someone please add here a description of a military gondola, in lieu of the link? Or, if it's too detailed a subject, create a small article on military gondolas and link it instead? Otherwise, the casual reader has no idea what sort of naval vessels we're talking about here. I imagine it's along the lines of an 18th Century gunboat (a deckless shallow draft vessel with one or two fixed guns or a number of swivel guns), but the term "gondola" is not used in that article. 12.22.250.4 20:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
(there are enough hits that you can be selective) Tedickey 22:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I am reviewing this article for GA and have the following comments. —Mattisse (Talk) 18:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 18:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
This is a fine article and you need not worry that it will not pass GA. I have one remaining question, and that is about the focus of the article. It seems to switch between the American and the Canadian/British point of view. I am wondering why, at the end, you say what happens to Captain Pringle but not to Benedict Arnold? —Mattisse (Talk) 21:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Congratulations! —Mattisse (Talk) 23:40, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
In response to a request I made to his user page justifying the removal of Category:Naval battles involving the United States, User:Az81964444 replied:
I'll leave this image here in case it is needed later.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 22:31, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Brendan Morrissey in Quebec 1775: The American Invasion of Canada states "Carleton's failure to retake Ticonderoga and Crown Point probably had little effect on events in 1777." This is a fair point, since Burgoyne had no trouble taking the forts in 1777, and holding the forts over the winter of 1776-77 would have been logistically costly for Carleton. Thoughts?McMuff (talk) 04:01, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
What does "snuck" (3rd line 3rd para) mean ? Some kind of US slang ? Please change to a register appropriate to an encyclopedia. -- अनाम गुमनाम 01:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
This learned reference [1] suggests sneaked is "safer". Agree with OP that it is slangy even to a native speaker of American English. Brianhe (talk) 05:44, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
The article is excellent in general, but ends without a summing up of purposes and consequences. After his repulse from Canada, it seems pretty evident that Arnold - almost alone on the American side - had a clear strategic appreciation of the situation. The Americans desperately needed time to put together a military force capable of effective defence, and a British thrust down the Hudson River would sever the colonies and perhaps end any hope of building such a force. He lacked the resourses to defeat the British, so he crafted and executed extremely well a delaying action that in fact succeeded in holding off the British just long enough. The Valcour Island battle itself was only part of his plan. By the time it took place he had already succeeded in delaying a British advance by several months. All he needed was to hold them off until winter weather could intervene, and this battle and his fighting retreat accomplished this.
I think the article should reflect a bit better this lesser-known but very important aspect of Arnold's career as well as the strategic significance of the campaign of which it was a part.
As to whether it relates to his later actions, it helps to consider that Arnold didn't just "feel" he had been wronged when the Continental Congress repeatedly refused to promote him and instead promoted lesser men. He was surely aware of the real impact of his vision and actions (here and elsewhere) and the recognition it deserved, so the bitterness he harbored is indeed connected to this campaign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.199.126.189 (talk) 06:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I have a very small question about this nicely done article. Is there a minority point of view among scholars that this was not "one of the first naval battles of the American Revolutionary War"? If this is a mere statement of fact, why can't the sentence read "the battle is one of the first naval battles of the American Revolutionary War"? "Regarded as" is conventional when presenting a value judgment that reflects scholarly consensus to which exceptions are assumed, such as "regarded as one of the greatest generals" (some might disagree), or when the facts can't be determined with absolute certainty: "generally regarded as Shakespeare's earliest comedy" would imply that a few might argue that some other comedy was earlier. In this case, it seems that "one of the first" avoids asserting an absolute chronology: we're not saying it's the first. If there's a minority view that the battle is not "one of" the first of the Revolutionary War, I didn't see discussion of that in my quick skimming of the article. Hope the editors here don't find this too trivial a question, and thanks for your patience. Cynwolfe (talk) 11:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Battle of Valcour Island. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
((dead link))
tag to http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-p/provid3.htmWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ((Sourcecheck))
).
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:00, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Battle of Valcour Island. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:18, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Battle of Valcour Island. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:48, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
The article says that the armament of Thunderer is (six 24-pound guns, six 12-pound guns, and two howitzers), which totals 14. A look at HMS Thunderer (1760) shows Thunderer was a third rate ship of the line of 74 guns. Lower gundeck: 28 × 32 pdrs, Upper gundeck: 28 × 18 pdrs, Quarter deck: 14 × 9 pdrs, Forecastle: 4 × 9 pdrs. Though the armament of a ship may change during its service history, 14 vs. 74 is so drastically different that a note would be helpful if both descriptions are correct. --Happyseeu (talk) 14:55, 9 October 2020 (UTC)