This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Books of the Bible redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible articles
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
This redirect is within the scope of Interfaith work group, a work group which is currently considered to be inactive.
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism articles
Books of the Bible is within the scope of WikiProject Catholicism, an attempt to better organize and improve the quality of information in articles related to the Catholic Church. For more information, visit the project page.CatholicismWikipedia:WikiProject CatholicismTemplate:WikiProject CatholicismCatholicism articles
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religious texts, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Religious textsWikipedia:WikiProject Religious textsTemplate:WikiProject Religious textsReligious texts articles
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Theology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Theology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TheologyWikipedia:WikiProject TheologyTemplate:WikiProject TheologyTheology articles
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Near East, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ancient Near East related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient Near EastWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near EastTemplate:WikiProject Ancient Near EastAncient Near East articles
Books of the Bible was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Based on a suggestion in Wikipedia:Pages needing attention, I have started the skeleton of a WikiProject to try to cut down on the overlap between the various presentations of the canon. I think that a lot of people working here will want input on this. Feel free! Mpolo 13:24, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
Major and Minor. How about Former and Latter[edit]
Though there is no distinction between Major nad Minor prophets in the Tanakh, the "N" (i.e. Neviim) are divided into two categories. Rishonim and Acharonim (Priori and Posteriori). Joshua, Judges, Samuel 1-2, Kings 1-2 are considered Neviim Rishonim, whereas the rest are considered Latter Prophets. Perhaps that ought to be included. I understand that would be hard to fit into the graph, but at least in text...
The OT list could also include lists for the Armenian Apostolic, Ethiopian and Syriac Bibles.
Likewise the NT list could add the Syriac NT.
There are 2 Catholic orders: Vulgate (Maccabees after Malachi) & Septuagint (Maccabees after Malachi).
I collated Jewish books in the chart. Previously the Ketuvim books were separated out from the rest of the chart and added to the bottom of the chart as a separate list. This made it appear (without close inspection and mental collation) that there was a massive difference between the Jewish Tanakh and the Christian Old Testament, which, of course, there is not. The Hebrew Bible and the Protestant Old Testament are even identical in content. This is made much more plain by the collation job done. I marked the Ketuvim books in bold, and I footnoted each one so that there would be no confusion with the Nevi'im books. I think this brings much more clarity to the chart, which before seemed rather confusing. -- Guðsþegn (talk) 23:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You stated that the order of the books of the Bible (specifically the New Testament) varies based on the denomination. This may be true, but the statement in the article that the order you have is accepted by most Protestants, Catholics, and Greek Orthodox is not. You can see the Catholic order here. Just on the bookshelf of my office, the same order is used in the NIV, NRSV, CEB, KJV, NKJV, TEV, CEV, RSV, and New Oxford Annotated Bible. All of these versions are used regularly across Protestant denominations. In fact, this is the order found in both my Greek texts: "A Reader's Greek New Testament: 2nd Edition" by Goodrich and Lukaszewski and "The Greek New Testament: 4th Revised Edition" edited by Aland et. al. Every Bible Commentary in my office, including the New Interpreter's Bible and The Interpreter's Bible has them in this order; however, to be fair, they do rely on the NIV and NRSV (former) and RSV and KJV (latter). You can also find this order in Box 1.4 on page 10 of "The New Testament (4th ed)" by Bart D. Ehrman.
I would request one of two things happen. 1) The correct order as cited above be placed in the article or 2) Both your order and the order I cited above be placed in the article with the statement that this order is the one used by most Protestant denominations as well as Roman Catholics. I have been unable to confirm that the Greek Orthodox use this order.
In the interest of learning, would you tell me which denominations use the order you have, and where this can be found? I was unable to find it in any google search.
You appear to be new to Wikipedia. Welcome! I assume you are IP 50.195.146.93 who made the edits I recently reverted.
I wasn't calling into question the accuracy of your changes. I was questioning the editing process. Edit summaries are fine for simple matters, but it's clear that the book order in the Bible tends to be more complex, and moreover, could be subject to partisan rivalries among editors. The article has been stable for some time, indicating its original state has been generally acceptable to the community of editors who watch it, representing an editing consensus (click or right-click on the blue word to bring up the editorial consensus policy). That consensus can change, but my action in reverting you was designed to draw attention to your edits so that sufficient attention could be drawn, and its desirability be weighed also by experienced editors here. The edit summaries could not explain your reasons or approach sufficiently for due consideration to be given (there just isn't room there). Now you have responded, quite perfectly I might add, and everyone can see your thoughts, which also appear to me to be quite reasonable.
The various Biblical versions don't just differ in order, of course, but in content (differences in accepted Biblical canon), and in grouping. Protestants eliminate several books (sometimes differently from each other too), often calling them Apochrypha, while Catholics and Orthodox take them as canonical (the Orthodox accept a couple more than Catholic). Western translations tend to stick with content and order as in the Vulgate, whereas Orthodox used the Greek of the Septuagint (I assume that's the basis for your "Greek" versions). Different orderings might be useful to different people for different reasons, depending on how far they are going into historical development of the canon and collections of original texts. In addition, while Protestant-oriented ordering may be natural to many westerners who speak English, there are also a great many English speakers worldwide of Catholic and Orthodox backgrounds, and all such use English Wikipedia.
I don't really oppose your changes. I hope I merely brought up a few things you may not yet have considered in approaching Wikipedia, asking that you give them what you consider to be proper weight. Then, if you still wish your changes to be made, it's ok with me if you want to revert my reversion. And now all the other editors here can also weigh in with any comments they want to bring, and respond to changes with a good idea of what's going on. Please be aware that we on Wikipedia often get editing from IP addresses (essentially anonymous) who leave behind a very few edits, all too often without merit or appreciation of things they haven't thought about. While yours did not have the earmarks of the less knowledgeable of those, I hope you now have also gained some insight into how valuable editorial review can be, and why we may pause to consider before going ahead with changes. Welcome again, and I hope we see you again in the Christianity pages. Evensteven (talk) 17:44, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The section I actually wished to change was the New Testament ordering. The Hebrew Bible/Old Testament list on the page seemed to do a good job of showing the variety of possible orders. As such, no, the Greek texts I used are not based on the Septuagint. They are compiled from a variety of manuscripts and are the two texts used most often in Koine Greek classes in undergraduate and graduate studies. The manuscripts most used in the one I prefer, edited by Aland et al, comes from papyri, uncials, miniscules, lectionaries, and several more. I have never seen arguments before about the ordering of the New Testament, so discovering this problem on Wikipedia surprised me. Admittedly, I do live in the US, but I have not been able to find any non-western sources that confirm a different order of the New Testament canon either.
Thank you for the insight into how editorial changes should be made. In the future, should I encounter something I would like to add or edit, should I come to a page like this before making a change? Pastor Melissa (talk) 18:25, 29 October 2015 (UTC)Pastor Melissa[reply]
Yes, this is the place for anything that needs the consideration of the editing community, and that isn't readily addressed in simple fashion by edit comments themselves. But in many small matters, the edit comment alone is sufficient. So it's often a judgment call where to go first, and often the talk page is used once it's clear that there's an actual question that needs resolving.
As for arguments on Wikipedia, I can't say I've seen one specifically about Bible book order, either Testament, but stuff that is associated with differences among the churches can be sensitive, and I was seeking only to get explicit confirmation that all sides were fine. But as for your changes being to the New Testament ordering, indeed I see it now, but somehow I was thinking OT at the time I reverted you. That was completely my own blunder, for which I apologize. If I had only seen that aright the first time, I would have let your edit pass without all this commentary, and I would not have considered the matter to be sensitive. For indeed, I know of no real differences in NT canon, or ordering. I've only ever heard of infrequent criticisms of an early Reformation leader or two regarding bits from a couple of the general epistles, but nothing that altered it in major ways. Anyway, I hope I haven't influenced you to become too shy. After all, two more WP policies talk about editing boldly, and how to respond when that doesn't work out the first time, so no one really needs to walk on eggshells either. Don't worry, you're doing great! Evensteven (talk) 19:07, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have just modified 3 external links on Books of the Bible. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ((Sourcecheck))).
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check)) (last update: 5 June 2024).
If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
I have just modified one external link on Books of the Bible. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check)) (last update: 5 June 2024).
If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
i came here looking for those, and searching for "abbreviation" or "short" didn't make any hits. You know, "Jn" for "John", etc. --Jerome Potts (talk) 02:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]