This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Douglas MacArthur article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 90 days

faq page Frequently asked questions Controversies, praise, and criticism Q1: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A1: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praises and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per WP:CRIT. Q2: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A2: Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy says that "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about MacArthur in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q3: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A3: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Other issues Q4: This article is over 100kb long, WP:SIZE says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A4: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 100kB of readable prose (which corresponds to about 10,000 words), not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of December 2023, this article had about 19,300 words of readable prose (114 kB according to prosesize tool), which is over the limit. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q5: I added something to the article but it got removed. Why? A5: In all probability what you added was trivia, unsourced information or information cited to an unreliable source; such information is usually removed quickly. Articles on Wikipedia require reliable sources for an independent verification of the facts presented, consequently any information added to an article without a reliable source is subject to removal from the article at any Wikipedian's discretion. Q6: I tried to edit this article but couldn't. Why? A6: This article has been indefinitely semi-protected due to persistent vandalism or violations of content policy. Semi-protection prevents edits from anonymous users (IP addresses), as well as edits from any account that is not autoconfirmed (is at least four days old and has ten or more edits to Wikipedia) or confirmed. Such users can request edits to this article by proposing them on this talk page, using the ((editsemiprotected)) template if necessary to gain attention. They may also request the confirmed userright by visiting Requests for permissions.

	Douglas MacArthur is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	Douglas MacArthur is part of the Command in the South West Pacific Area series, a featured topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 26, 2014.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 19, 2006 Good article nominee Listed September 5, 2006 Good article reassessment Delisted April 13, 2010 Good article nominee Listed April 21, 2010 WikiProject A-class review Approved May 11, 2010 Featured article candidate Not promoted July 7, 2012 Featured article candidate Promoted December 23, 2012 Good topic candidate Promoted Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on April 11, 2004, April 11, 2005, April 11, 2006, March 20, 2013, March 20, 2016, March 20, 2020, March 20, 2022, and March 20, 2023. Current status: Featured article

This  level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Biography: Military / Politics and Government / Science and Academia This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as High-importance). This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by the science and academia work group. Military history: Asian / South Pacific / Japanese / Korean / North America / Southeast Asia / United States / World War I / World War II / Cold War This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles Associated task forces: /  Asian military history task force Australia, New Zealand and South Pacific military history task force Japanese military history task force Korean military history task force North American military history task force Southeast Asian military history task force United States military history task force World War I task force World War II task force Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989) Additional information: /  This article has passed an A-Class review. Australia: Military history Mid‑importance Douglas MacArthur is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Australia, New Zealand and South Pacific military history task force (assessed as Mid-importance). Need help improving this article? Ask a LibrarianWhat's this? at the National Library of Australia. The Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to helpwikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance. Homeschooling (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Homeschooling, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.HomeschoolingWikipedia:WikiProject HomeschoolingTemplate:WikiProject HomeschoolingHomeschooling articles Japan: Biography / Military history Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project, participate in relevant discussions, and see lists of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 00:11, June 20, 2024 (JST, Reiwa 6) (Refresh)JapanWikipedia:WikiProject JapanTemplate:WikiProject JapanJapan-related articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Biography task force. This article is supported by the joint Japanese military history task force. WikiProject Japan to do list: edit history watch purge Peer review: Kako River (Japan) A-class review: None Featured content candidates –  Articles: None Pictures: None Lists: None Good article nominations: Pure Japanese, Vinland Saga (TV series), Japanese destroyer Ume (1944), Mai Fujisawa, Godzilla Minus One Add requested images to articles that need them. Pages for Deletion: Participate in Japan-related deletion discussions. Improve and expand Japan-related stubs. Create some requested articles. Help translate an article from the Japanese Wikipedia into English. Assess unassessed articles Korea Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Korea, a collaborative effort to build and improve articles related to Korea. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the documentation.KoreaWikipedia:WikiProject KoreaTemplate:WikiProject KoreaKorea-related articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Korean military history task force. Southeast Asia Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Southeast Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Southeast Asia-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Southeast AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Southeast AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Southeast AsiaSoutheast Asia articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Tambayan Philippines High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Tambayan Philippines, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics related to the Philippines on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Tambayan PhilippinesWikipedia:WikiProject Tambayan PhilippinesTemplate:WikiProject Tambayan PhilippinesPhilippine-related articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. United States: Military history / Presidential elections Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Military history - U.S. military history task force. This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. presidential elections (assessed as Mid-importance). Cold War Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cold War, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Cold War on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Cold WarWikipedia:WikiProject Cold WarTemplate:WikiProject Cold WarCold War articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics: American Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Mid-importance). Higher education This article is within the scope of WikiProject Higher education, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of higher education, universities, and colleges on Wikipedia. Please visit the project page to join the discussion, and see the project's article guideline for useful advice.Higher educationWikipedia:WikiProject Higher educationTemplate:WikiProject Higher educationHigher education articles

Section sizes Section size for Douglas MacArthur (48 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 12,604 12,604 Early life and education 5,997 5,997 Junior officer 4,714 4,714 Veracruz expedition 2,346 2,346 World War I 17 16,913 Rainbow Division 3,003 3,003 Lunéville-Baccarat Defensive sector 2,308 2,308 Champagne-Marne offensive 4,908 4,908 Battle of Saint-Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne offensive 6,677 6,677 Between the wars 22 28,383 Superintendent of the United States Military Academy 4,739 4,739 Army's youngest major general 5,165 5,165 Chief of Staff 5,209 10,933 Bonus Army 3,377 3,377 New Deal 2,347 2,347 Field Marshal of the Philippine Army 7,524 7,524 World War II 17 48,966 Philippines campaign (1941–1942) 330 18,140 Defense of the Philippines 10,587 10,587 Escape from the Philippines 1,700 1,700 Medal of Honor 5,523 5,523 New Guinea Campaign 59 14,933 General Headquarters 3,790 3,790 Papuan Campaign 3,384 3,384 New Guinea Campaign 7,700 7,700 Philippines Campaign (1944–45) 85 15,876 Leyte 5,571 5,571 Luzon 7,698 7,698 Southern Philippines 2,522 2,522 Occupation of Japan 57 24,917 Protecting the Emperor 7,865 7,865 War crimes trials 2,480 2,480 Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers 9,723 9,723 1948 presidential election 4,792 4,792 Korean War 39 23,890 South to the Naktong, North to the Yalu 9,680 9,680 China enters the war 5,926 5,926 Removal from command 8,245 8,245 Later life 12,840 12,840 Death and legacy 12,994 19,388 Honors and awards 4,194 4,194 Portrayals 2,200 2,200 Dates of rank 2,611 2,611 Bibliography 2,214 2,214 Notes 8,862 8,862 References 24,981 24,981 Further reading 4,008 4,008 External links 6,848 6,848 Total 250,482 250,482

The syntax of the opening of the early life section is confusing in that it makes it sound as though Arthur MacArthur Jr. received his Medal of Honor after Douglas' birth, not before.

"A military brat, Douglas MacArthur was born 26 January 1880, at Little Rock Barracks in Arkansas, to Arthur MacArthur Jr., a U.S. Army captain, and his wife, Mary Pinkney Hardy MacArthur (nicknamed "Pinky"). Arthur Jr. was a son of Scottish-born jurist and politician Arthur MacArthur Sr. Arthur Jr. would later receive the Medal of Honor for his actions with the Union Army in the Battle of Missionary Ridge during the American Civil War, and be promoted to the rank of lieutenant general."

This should read:

"A military brat, Douglas MacArthur was born 26 January 1880, at Little Rock Barracks in Arkansas, to Arthur MacArthur Jr., a U.S. Army captain, and his wife, Mary Pinkney Hardy MacArthur (nicknamed "Pinky"). Arthur Jr. was a son of Scottish-born jurist and politician Arthur MacArthur Sr. Arthur Jr., had received the Medal of Honor for his actions with the Union Army in the Battle of Missionary Ridge during the American Civil War, and later be promoted to the rank of lieutenant general." Faction123 (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? Douglas MacArthur was born on 26 January 1880. His father was awarded the Medal of Honor on 30 June 1890. Douglas was ten years old at the time. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I stumbled on this article to consider it for WP:OTD, but rejected it because of the length banner at the top. I read through the discussion from July and agree with Nikkimaria that the length is a problem for several reasons:

• Large amounts of text make the article hard for some readers to load the page and scroll through text (because the side bar is too small)
• Large amounts of text are discouraging for readers to read, because they have to read through lots of text to finish reading information about an event, rather than read a summary that fulfils their interest. If someone is interested in more specific information, they can find it in one of the sources cited.
• Large sections with multiple paragraphs makes information hard for the reader to find information they are looking for within a section.

I know that specialists like more information, but Wikipedia is written for a general audience, of which there are more of then people with a specialist interest. Specialists are also more likely to seek out additional sources (like biographies) while general readers will look at the length of this article and not read anything, defeating the purpose of writing an article.

A couple of suggestions for text that might be summarised or moved to other articles:

• The number of block quotes should be reduced and the information summarised or removed. If a reader is looking for a specific information, they will often skip the blockquotes and just read the subsequent paragraph. Many of these blockquotes are giving excellent description of MacArthur's thoughts or someone's thoughts about MacArthur, but are not necessary in an encyclopedia article. For example, the article doesn't need a whole paragraph blockquote of MacArthur's description of his Aug. 2 observations of the Champagne-Marne offensive: this is too much detail.
• There is lots of detail in many places that, due to the vast amount of text in the article, is not needed. Wikipedia articles should be summaries of the person's biography and the detail can be trimmed and generalised. I would do this myself, but I think that would be more disruptive than useful. Perhaps a subject-matter expert can do this instead.

I also have some other concerns:

• The first blockquote in "Rainbow Division" is not introduced, the author is not given in the prose, and it is not in quotes. A reader has to look at the footnote to see where the quote was from. With all of this in mind, a reader might think that this is Wikipedia text, not a quote from another author, which might run afoul of WP:PLAGIARISM. I suggest that this quote be summarised and rewritten.
• After the article is trimmed, I suggest that any section that is more than 4 paragraphs be broken up into sub-headings. This will make information easier for the reader to find.
• Why are the sources in "Further reading" not used as inline citations? Can these be used to replace lower-quality or older sources used in the article? If they are lower quality than the sources already used, why are they included here?
• There are lots of sources that I think can be replaced or removed: history.com, YouTube videos, and newspaper articles from the time period that should be replaced by more current references.
• Some of the include notes. These should be moved to a separate "Notes" section and cited (and the citations moved to their own section, maybe titled Inline citations?)
• Some of the sources have direct quotes from the source. I think this was used more often in Wikipedia articles, but has fallen into disuse due to plagiarism concerns and it no longer being necessary (the reader can verify the information themselves from the source). I suggest that these are removed.

Sorry for the long post. Pinging previous participants @Nikkimaria, Hawkeye7, and Srnec: Other commentators are also welcome. Z1720 (talk) 01:46, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your well-considered suggestions. I promise to consider and take action.

The notion that "large amounts of text make the article hard for some readers to load the page and scroll through text" has been thoroughly debunked. That readers read the article from top to bottom has also been. Studies have indicated that many readers comb the articles looking for specific information while those less interested merely read the summary in the lead. In this article the evidence is that most of the 1.5 million page views per year are from readers are looking for specific information on a particular aspect of MacArthur's life.

Wikipedia articles are not summaries of the person's biography per se; that is contrary to our policy and the first of our five pillars, which holds that Wikipedia is a written compendium of knowledge. What we are supposed to do by policy is create ever more detailed subarticles (WP:SUMMARYSTYLE) but this has recently been challenged as well, because search engines direct the readers to the main article even when a subarticle exists on precisely the topic they are looking for. I have created a couple of subarticles, but that fact has stymied suggestions of creating more. Over time the article has slowly grown, with editors continually adding more material, particularly to the Occupation of Japan and World War I sections, which obviously fall into their particular sphere of interest.

I will action your specific points. I note that there is currently no consensus as to how large sections should be. There is also a debate going on at the moment about explanatory footnotes and whether they should be included with the citations. My personal opinion is that explanatory footnotes need to be justified, with a reason why they cannot be in the body. : With reference to the "Further reading" section, these are books that myself and others have recommended. They could be used in the article for inline citations. I will consider each one.

I agree about the use of direct quotes from the source in the footnotes. This is inconsistent and unecessary.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a page on an American general, so shouldn't the page be in MM/DD/YYYY? Fringe, Suspect The (talk) 20:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:MILFORMAT: articles on the modern US military, including biographical articles related to the modern US military, should use day-before-month, in accordance with US military usage. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks Fringe, Suspect The (talk) 02:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the end of "Field Marshal of the Philippine Army" and just before the section on World War II are these two sentences:

In Manila, MacArthur was a member of the Freemasons. At the time of the occupation of Japan, MacArthur belonged to Manila Lodge No. 1 and was in the 32nd Masonic rank.

In the second sentence, should the first clause be: "At the time of the occupation BY Japan"? If not, I'm baffled as to how MacArthur's Masonic Lodge affiliation in Manila would have any relevance to the occupation OF Japan--especially since his time in Tokyo would certainly have taken away from any time he could spend in Manila. Rontrigger (talk) 06:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. Please check the edit I made. — hako9 (talk) 17:44, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Rontrigger (talk) 01:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "was in the 32nd Masonic rank" to "was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason". The phrasing of the original excerpt is incorrect and not used by any regular Masonic body Masonicscribe (talk) 14:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — hako9 (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]