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In the Doctrines section, it is noted that "The outward administration of the sacraments of the Lord's Supper and baptism they rejected." The authority for this statement is from reference 25: "Moon, J. H (1902). Water baptism, a pagan and Jewish rite, but not Christian." J.H. Moon was a Quaker (did not accept water baptism) and in reading his book he seems to take liberties when interpreting which ancient/past groups may have also rejected baptism. However, I did not trace all of his references. My opinion is that this is not an authoritative or sufficiently objective reference and that the above quoted sentence be removed unless the author of that sentence could quote a more objective or ancient Paulician source. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlambros (talk • contribs) 17:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Further, "The Key of Truth" has extremely clear references to adult baptism. Although we do not know whether the original teachings of the Paulicians remained unchanged in "The Key of Truth," it is far more likely that it is closer to the truth of the Paulicians view of baptism than the interpretations of an early 20th century Quaker. Am I missing something here? I would appreciate input prior to my changing the article in case there is something I have not considered. Thank you. (BTW I did read the Talk posting below addressing "The Key of Truth" and I understand the views of the author; however, I still believe that it is a better reference than J.H. Moon for their view on baptism.)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:A:1A00:0:17B:9B05:1D78:C31 (talk) 02:13, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
After no response to my statements above, I deleted the sentence quoted at the beginning of this section. Also, after further research, I question how anyone could cite that reference (J.H. Moon) as a reliable source on the topic of ancient groups' views on baptism. Further, I am more and more beginning to question the "Gnostic" label applied to this group. Mlambros (talk) 11:28, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Preposterous! You simply can't be a Gnostic and an adoptionist, the former rejects the humanity of Christ the Latter rejects the divinity of Christ. The former affirms the divinity of Christ the latter affirms that Christ is a creature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 (talk) 13:26, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
There have been many heresies along the history of Christianity, but the most threatening by far in de Middle Ages was that of the Paulicians. The Paulicians had their roots in Armenia, were they mixed Christianity with the dualist religion of Mani, which was deeply rooted in the Gnosis.
http://www.religionstatistics.net/histen4.htm
This article is based almost exclusively on The Key of Truth - a 100+ year old book that was based off Paulician documents of their professions of faith that were drawn up in 1837 (Key of Truth, xxiii-xxviii). The notion that this group was some sort of proto-protestant group accounts for the fact that the sect has met among modern writers with more interest and certainly more sympathy than it deserves.
The facts are the Paulicians believed that there was a distinction between a God who made and governs the material world and a God of heaven who created souls, who alone should be adored. This remains POPULAR oppinion and Conybeare remains a dissenting voice against the world-wide, mainstream understanding.
This entire article needs to be rewritten from a neutral POV. As it stands, it represents only the POV of some English speaking Christian groups who feel the need to trace apostolic succession through the Paulicians.
Edited back into the text: "was a Gnostic and Manichaean Christian sect that florished between 650 and 872 in Anatolia, outgoing from Armenia and the Eastern Themes of the Byzantine Empire." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitsitt3 (talk • contribs) 23:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Removed from the text: "While there were some Paulicians that had Gnostic elements, the charge that they were Manicheans and dualists is disputed." "The Paulicians are not dualists in any other sense than the New Testament was dualistic." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.251.169.69 (talk) 00:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Why has the recent addition and deletion taken place? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jryanburlap (talk • contribs) 18:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It was brought to my attention that it have been changed. Please don't make any changes without discussing it first. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitsitt3 (talk • contribs) 22:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
"Baanes, an immoral man" -- this statement of opinion should either be removed or replaced with some facts. -- 207.109.22.134 (talk) 16:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Somebody blanked the talk page. I have restored. -- SECisek 05:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
If anyone wants to make changes to the main page it needs to be discuss in here first. Wikipedia is not a place to support a doctrine. Is was designed so others can come and learn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheLayman (talk • contribs) 20:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The article was changed by two other users. TheLayman cited the Columbia Encyclopedia several times and someone else changed it. Whitsitt3 22:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The article seems very odd to me, because in the beginning the Paulicians existed from 4th to 12th century, and then they're lost. But at the end of the article they reappear. First of all: most encyclopedic sources outside WP claims the same: in the 12th century or so, they're lost to history. Then they popup again in the early 19ths. Most of those sources allege connections with cathars, which seems farfetched in the extreme, considering the 4th independent emergence of cathars, and the bogomils and so the french cathars, who by automaticity are connected with the bogomils. This seems to much speculation to my taste. It seems like the history writing, not we ourselves, provides us with prejudicies and invented stories, trying to explain and falsely connect the eternally reoccurring but possibly unrelated emergences of "heresies". Maybe what we can see is the shadow of the church itself, not any historical continuity of heresies. Now trying to be practical: What sources can we trust? (Opinions only – we cannot know the truth so opinion will have to do). I propose modern texts based on anthropological studies are OK. More? Said: Rursus ☻ 17:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
"Paulicians (Armenian: Պավլիկյաններ, also remembered as Pavlikians or Paulikianoi[1]) were a Gnostic and quasi Manichaean Christian group which flourished between 650 and 872 in Anatolia, Armenia and the Eastern Themes of the Byzantine Empire." Anatolia is a new geographical name. Please,use the right name for the right time! E.S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.182.20 (talk) 01:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
"The adherents of the sect fled, with the Armenian Paul at their head, to Episparis." Episparis is a kind of insect. Anyone knows the modern name of that place? 89.137.254.89 (talk) 16:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
The term "sect" used throughout the article is a misnomer that was used by its opponentes. WP should not use the biased partizan lingo of the opponentes. Paulicianism was a movement of dissenters who organized a separate Church, not a separate "Sect", and the article should use the appropriate terminology. Any objections to call it "Church" in the context of the article? Terminologically, "sect" is a "clique", and "clique" is an exclusive circle of people with a common purpose, not a religious movement, and not an organized separate Church Barefact (talk) 05:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
By whom was this article created? Talk about Massacre of Paulicians.
Add this, by Edward Gibbon:
"The feeble Michael the fifth and Rigid Leo the Armenian were foremost in the race of persecution but the prize must doubtless be judged to the sanguinary devotion of Theodora, who restored the images to the Oriental church. Her inquisitors explored the cities and mountains... and flatterers of empress had affirmed that they could murder 100 000 Paulicians - by sword, gibbets or flames."
http://books.google.com/books?id=46kWAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=edward+gibbon+award+given+to+theodora+inquisitors&source=bl&ots=RkBU6PFeMd&sig=FTOBC159RnWTAf2Kjr7X8PSxkpA&hl=en&ei=2aqQTozaCYGLsgLxyYG5AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false -- --Otherguylb (talk) 20:02, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
We could add this to also the page of ST. Theodora, as far as she is saint because of getting rid of Paulicians and other Iconoclasts... --Otherguylb (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
You ought to come up with a better source than Edward Gibbon. NJMauthor (talk) 20:59, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
See discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard/Archive 10#Is Paulicianism a fair article?. There are some neutrality issues, but these are somewhat minor and no re-write is required. Oiyarbepsy (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:00, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Paulicianism/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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Could use more content on the specific beliefs and practices of the group, if such are known. Badbilltucker 22:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC) According to Christian historian and scholar Samuel Vila (A las fuentes del cristianismo, p. 203, 5th Ed. 19??, Tell; 1st Ed. 1931): "...allá el año 660, hospedó en su casa a un diácono, quien puso en sus manos un precioso y raro tesoro en aquellos tiempos anteriores a la invención de la imprenta: un Nuevo Testamento. Por su lectura obtuvo el conocimiento de la plena salvación que hay en Cristo; y al comunicar esas buenas nuevas a otras personas formó un grupo de creyentes sinceros; y más tarde, de predicadores ... recibieron el nombre de Paulicianos ..." The above, freely translated as: " ... in the year 660 [ Constantine ] received a deacon in his house, who put in his hands a precious and rare treasure in those days before the invention of the printing press: a New Testament. Upon reading the same he came to know about the whole salvation in Christ; and upon sharing said good news with others, he formed a group of sincere believers; later on, of preachers ... who became known as Paulicians ..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edmuwik (talk • contribs) 21:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC) |
Last edited at 21:24, 30 September 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 02:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
The adherents of the sect fled, with Paul at their head.
Not Paul the Apostle, and not Paul of Samosata (3rd century). No other Paul is mentioned elsewhere in the article. Who is this Paul? Koro Neil (talk) 11:13, 4 May 2020 (UTC)