Richard, I finally found time today to start reading this proposal. I am going to make some changes as I feel that the current text is a bit too POV (not surprising, given that it is largely taken from existing articles). I may also add some currently-uncited text but will be sure to place ((fact)) tags so that I remember to find the sources for those statements. I may do this over a period of time too; if you don't see me make a lot of changes today it may be because I became distracted - I'll be back. As always, feel free to revert anything I do, although for more substantial reverts it might be helpful to discuss here to make sure that we understand why. Thanks so much for starting this effort! Karanacs (talk) 18:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
[Following comment copied from User talk:Karanacs] As I try to work with this article, I find that I am hampered by the organization of the article. I am now wondering if there aren't a series of articles that should be written instead of just one. I am thinking that the current article focuses on contemporary issues and I'm not sure how to work in the history of women in the early Church, the medieval Church, etc. I also think there could be an article about feminism and the Catholic Church that would cover topics that might be hard to fit into the current article on Catholic Church and women. If you search in Google Books for "Catholic Church women" and "Catholic Church feminism", you will see some of the sources that lead me to this conclusion. I'd like to get your opinion on how best to organize and cover these topics. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 23:04, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
This seems entirely written from the POV of modern social sciences. No mention of some key elements:
Is this just about how the church influenced attitudes to women? It should be a 2 way street, for women influenced the church too, e.g. the many letters of Catherine of Siena to the pope and how that changed so many things, including the return of Papacy from Avignon etc. And Teresa of Calcutta single handedly changed the attitude towards the Church among millions of people - more than 100 Cardinals in her time. Not that I have time to work on it, but needs to be mentioned I think. History2007 (talk) 13:42, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Anyway, I added Speculum Virginum and Avila to the Medieval section and the only other item there for now would be Catherine of Siena's influence, but can be done any time.
And a section on 17th-19th century needs to be there, because to jump to 20 from Avila is too much of a jump. You can add to it if you have time, or I will add in the next month or two gradually. Not hard to find material.History2007 (talk) 01:37, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
I was wondering if anyone has considered adding a section that discusses what women's lives were like in pre-Christian societies? I see it is touched upon with the mention of ancient Roman practices but what about practices in India, pre-Christian America and pre-Christian Europe and Africa? Female sex slavery was commonly practiced in America and Africa. Slavery was a factor of all of these societies. Wives are expected to commit suicide on a funeral pyre in parts of India and the Caste system has been seriously challenged there by vast numbers of "untouchables" conversion to Christianity. Muslim societies might also be mentioned in this article to provide a fair constrast to the quality of women's lives under Christianity compared to Islam where men can have up to four wives, girls can be killed for fraternizing with boys and a woman claiming to have been raped is required to have two male witnesses verify her story. NancyHeise talk 15:46, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Islam, in contrast, takes female slavery for granted - there is an allocation of married/unmarried/child booty in every victory (Koran 33:50), of which 1/5 was allocated to Mohammed and his family, with discussions of whether coitus interuptus can be employed to preserve the sex slave price. On the latter, Mohammed says there is nothing wrong in doing that (FROM SAHIH MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3371 #3432) (Hadith, Koran 4:3, 70:22-30, 23:5,6). Mohammed himself had many sex slaves, of many religions. Hadith, Tabari volume 39, page 194."He (Muhammad) used to visit her (Mariyam) there and ordered her to veil herself, [but] he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property." Also, a muslim man, by virtue of taking a female captive, annuls her marriage to her unbelieving husband under the following hadith: FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD, VOLUME 2, # 2150: Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". [The Quran verse is 4:24].
Of course we might also include a section exploring the experience of women as slaves of Christians, abducted in Africa and shipped to the New World by the Christian Spanish, Portuguese, British, French etc. And then perhaps something about their experience as chattel slaves of Christian owners in North and South America and in the Caribbean, etc. Several million, I believe were traded and owned by Catholics (and Protestants), as well as many that perished on the voyage. That would be an interesting topic. Then there is quite a long history of medieval slavery, with e.g. Venice operating a flourishing slave market, which could be included. All very substantial topics indeed!METRANGOLO1 (talk) 10:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
An image used in this article, File:Walter M. Gibson at Kalaupapa.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Other speedy deletions
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Walter M. Gibson at Kalaupapa.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 11:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC) |
The result of the move request was: moved . SSTflyer 09:11, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Catholic Church and women → Women in the Catholic Church – A more WP:PRECISE description of what the article is about that the "and" version and avoids perceptions of bias per WP:AND. Deus vult! Crusadestudent (talk) 04:14, 14 May 2016 (UTC)