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This artilce need significant changes in structure and emphasis I am generally quite unhappy with the way the article looks like although I have contributed to it too. Unfortunately it doesn't say much on the basic idea that subject and object are subordinate to quality. This might be complete nonsense as a matter of philosophy but that is one of the main issues in the book. Also, too much technical stuff on motorcycle maintence is given. The example is good in itself but it takes a whole paragraph and gives the wrong impression to an unfamiliar-with-the-book reader that the book is heavily littered with long explanations about valves, engines and spanners which is decidedly not the case. Misho-Mishu (talk) 15:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
One thread that seems to be missing from this account is the story of how this book came to be published. I understand that Pirsig had a remarkable 126 rejections before an editor finally accepted it for publication--and he did so thinking it would never make a bit of profit. Then it was on best-selling lists for decades. Pirsig himself comments on this in Lila--that Zen/Motorcycle was turned out to be pivotal in our culture "culture bearing", whatever that means. This article could also discuss why Pirsig considered himself to be a philosopher but philosphers do not. In Lila he specifically criticises the way that philosophy is taught in universities saying that they are not philosophy courses at all, but rather philosophology. Like trying to learn to be an artist from an art historian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JGDove99 (talk • contribs) 10:39, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I've introduced into the discussion (marginally) the possibility that the book may in fact be pseudophilosophy, as contended in that article.
I rather liked the book, and not being a philosopher, I would appreciate it if someone could explain what the particular strikes against the book (as "philosophy") are. This book (I haven't read the sequel) doesn't seem to set itself up as anything like a complete philosophy, in my recollection. I liked the idea of "Quality" as the medium in which the subjective and objective interact, and the attempted synthesis of Western and Eastern thought in that idea, though I'm not sure what would or wouldn't make it philosophical. I also was amused by Phaedrus' view on Plato (that his distaste for the Sophists was a result of his desperately trying to raise the Logos out of the Mythos, and he needed to blast them to secure a place for the concept of objective truth). I don't know much about the accuracy of the argument, as all I've read of Plato is the Meno, but I found it at least interesting. Assuming somebody more versed in philosophy (and having read this book) finds this entry, please answer! Vivacissamamente 02:03, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph tries to do too much.
I suggest that any controversy about "how much of himself" went into the novel, be treated separately - and probably further down on the page. Let's find out what the novel is about first. Uncle Ed 17:29, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I found the comment, "non-intellectual Zen-like view of the universe" very offenceive. To call a religion or a philosophy "non-intellectual" is rather...well non-intelectual. Is it not a fact and it doesn't seem very neutral.Fistagonfive 02:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
To reply to the person who was offended by the term "non-intellectual" in reference to Zen Buddhism. Don't take it as an insult. Eastern philosophy and mysticism is indeed quite an intellectual view of the world. It describes the world a certain way and then, based on that analysis, lays out a didactic/normative framework. In this normative framework it prescribes a way of engaging with the world that is non-intellectual. In Taoism it is called wu wei, meaning, non-doing/undoing. It asks us to divorce our symbolic representations (ideas, concepts, language) from the pure phenomena that we experience through the senses. All semantic organization of the world is thrown out of the window and instead we are implored to experience the buzz, the bare phenomena, the given devoid of the conceptualization through which we saturate experience. It asks us to undo all that which we have learned and do away with the symbolic representations, which stand in the way of of our seeing the world as it truly is, a unified whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.233.105 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't know who introduced this sentence, but just because you study the Great Authors, doesn't mean a program is a Great Books program. There are certain teachers who take the approach of trying to interpret the classics in such a way as to find as much truth as possible in them, which is presumably what Phaedrus' opponent, the university department chair was getting at, but just because such an approach employs the Great Books, doesn't make the two curriculums the same.
The Great Books program (which was abandoned long previously to Phaedrus' attendance at the University of Chicago) takes a dialectical approach called Shared Inquiry: discuss the Great Books, determine the issues involved, weigh the evidence of all sides in light of the participants understanding and experience, and sift through more relative truths in order to find more firmly established truths.
Tellingly, in his novel, Pirsig recites the merits of one of the founder of the Great Books model's approach, Mortimer Adler. Pirsig goes on by way of criticism, simply to say that he feels Adler took his studies up to a certain point in intellectual history, and did not go beyond that. Pirsig's implication in claiming that Adler had terminated the scope of his research, is that through Pirsig's own form of inquiry (which is in fact the term employed in the subtitle of his book), he thought he had discovered something new through sifting through his predecessor's ideas in light of his own understanding and experience, and with such an approach, one can hardly regard it as a renunciation of his predecessors in the Great Books tradition.
Perhaps someone else can write a replacement sentence describing Pirsig's relationship to his instructors at the University of Chicago characterizing those instructors in a more accurate manner. 64.154.26.251 02:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This website:
...is quite dense, erudite, and almost unreadable... but Doug Renselle seems to use Pirsig's philosophical interests in its construction (or did initially). If you dont do anything else, just check the list of essays devoted to 'Essence' and 'Pirsig' on the Homepage.
Can we add it to the External Links section? What do you think? Drakonicon 10:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 05:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The title is an incongruous play on the title of the book Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel. In its introduction, Pirsig explains that, despite its title, "it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles, either."
I noticed this part immediately... mostly cause its one of the first paragraphs of this page. Does anyone have any citation for the "fact" that "The title is an incongruous play on the title of the book Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel."
If you go to amazon.om or any store that sells a vast array of books, you will notice that there are hundreds of different books titled [i]Zen and the Art of...[/i] Defining this one title to be the basis of which Pirsig decided to copy his title for his book needs to be cited, or omitted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unitepunx (talk • contribs) 15:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Can't shed any light on the real source of inspiration, but a quick amazon search indicates that only 'zen the art of falling in love', 'zen in the art of archery' and 'zen in the art of flower arranging' actualy appear to pre-date the publication of z&taomm, although 'falling in love' is the only one with 'and the art' as opposed to 'in the art'; 'archery' would seem the most likely candidate. I think that we can be sure is was not 'zen and the art of snowboarding' or 'zen and the art of the internet' Mjbowell (talk) 22:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I suppose I'll ad my two cents on this. In my Harper Perennial Modern Classics edition, first published in 2005, there is a section in the back called "A Conversation with Robert M. Pirsig." In this section, Pirsig is quoted as saying:
The book actually started with the title. John Sutherland was a philosophy major, and in school he took a great interest in Oriental philosophy. In fact, I first met him at a Rockefeller Foundation conference on the Sanskrit term "dharma" for which he was conference secretary. As described in the book, we would ride for a while and stop for a beer from time time where we often discussed philosophic subjects, including Eugen Herrigel's Zen in the Art of Archery. I knew John didn't like motorcycle maintenance and I did, and I thought maybe I should write an essay for him called "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" to help make my point. The idea intrigued me and that's how the book began.
Well I don't know that quoting all that was really necessary, but there you have it. -Brentdeezee (talk) 02:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The article currently contains a good analysis of the philosophical aspect of ZAMM, but doesn't mention that the book also has other aspects. It's a travalogue, an investigation into the father/son relationship and an essay on mental illness. —Tobyink —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.2.120.180 (talk) 08:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
It is interesting how different people get different things from this book and that fact itself warrants mentioning. What I got from it was that it was an autobiography, a description of the challenges of a father-son relationship, some amusing points about how one can look at the mundane and take pleasure from it, his gripes about his professional career but most of all is is a very moving and passionate account of why electro-convulsive therapy is cruel and can be very damaging. I got the impression it was a book written to get electric-shock treatment banned. There was also a moving postscript in my edition which said what came of his son. The description of the book as it stands is more of an essay on "Look how much I know about philosophy". SandJ-on-WP (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
The definition "quality is what you want" is an example of ethical emotivism. I have added that category and have removed some weasel words. Wowest (talk) 03:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Section on ZATM added at Honda CB77#Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. --Dbratland (talk) 00:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
Google picks up on something that Pirsig (IIRC) didn't, or didn't state explicitly: this quote from Plato's "Phaedrus":
Just a little thought to add to the discussion, I know this isn't directly about the article itself (but I do think it's worth mentioning that the article's treatment of the name "Phaedrus" is a bit lacking). Arided (talk) 19:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
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Pirsig differentiates between romantic quality and his Quality, which he associates with Tao i.e Zen. Therefore I don't think the statement "..romantic viewpoints, such as Zen,..." is correct in the context of the novel and rather completely misses the point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.212.107 (talk) 23:38, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm new to this wikipedia, But I agree wholeheartedly. John Sutherland brings with him 5 times too much rope, and shuts down any discussion of motorcycle repair. This is a closed mind. Pirsig's notion of Quality is far closer to ZEN. an example of a practice that was influenced by Zen, that primarily focuses on quality would be the Tea Ceremony. It takes a tremendous amount of effortful practice. Zen is being awake and aware. Not just gliding through half asleep as John Sutherland seems content to do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza
The modern Japanese Zen master, Hakuun Ryōko Yasutani says:
Shikantaza is the mind of someone facing death. Let us imagine that you are engaged in a duel of swordsmanship of the kind that used to take place in ancient Japan. As you face your opponent you are unceasingly watchful, set, ready. Were you to relax your vigilance even momentarily, you would be cut down instantly. A crowd gathers to see the fight. Since you are not blind you see them from the corner of your eye, and since you are not deaf you hear them. But not for an instant is your mind captured by these impressions.[21]
Seems similar to being awake and aware while working on a motorcycle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snoopy7777 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
The article on gumption traps was eliminated and parts of it were merged into this page. I see no discussion about that preceding the action. It seems to me such a thing should have been raised in discussion first.Teishin (talk) 15:35, 17 August 2020 (UTC)