This page was created as part of the mediation process for the Sathya Sai Baba and related articles. The page is specifically devoted to discussion of the use of websites, either as verifiable sources, or as links, within the Sathya Sai Baba and related articles.
Wikipedia policy permits any material added to Wikipedia to be challenged, by making a request for verifiable sources. If a verifiable source, meeting certain requirements is not produced, the material in question may be deleted. Not all sources qualify as a response to such a challenge. The Wikipedia policy Verifiability specifically mentions the following:
As mediator, I will ask whether any of websites with which the parties are associated is controlled by a well-known professional in the relevant field. By a professional in a field, I understand someone who is recognized as a professional in the field by others, for example by being hired as such by an employer, or by the awarding of advanced degrees in the field by a University.
It is the mediators opinion that if a statement in Wikipedia is challenged for a verifiable source, and the source offered is a website not controlled by a well-known professional in the appropriate field, then the challenge should be considered to have not been met. The statement in Wikipedia may be deleted. Please note, that the question of whether an article may link to a given website is another matter altogether. The opinion here relates only to whether certain material may be deleted because that material has not been supported by suitable sources.
Please express your agreement or disagreement with this opinion. Please discuss other issues elsewhere. --BostonMA 03:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Please express whether, in your opinion, any website with which you are associated, is controlled by a well-known professional in the field.
Please point out to the mediator any Wikipedia policies or guidelines which you believe are relevent to the issues of when it is appropriate or inappropriate to include a link within any part of a Wikipedia article (including 'external links') to a personal website or a website which is not controlled by a professional in the appropriate field. You may point out these policies or guidelines here. Please do not discuss in this section the question of using websites as a verifiable source. --BostonMA 03:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The mediator is not familiar with any Wikipedia policies or guidelines which address the issues of when it is appropriate or inappropriate to include a link within any part of a Wikipedia article (including 'external links') to a personal website or a website which is not controlled by a professional in the appropriate field. The mediator understand this as a different issue than the question of using websites as a verifiable source. The mediator made a request to the parties to point out to any such relevent policies or guidelines, but to date, no such policies or guidelines have been brought forward. Wikipedia may not have such policies or guidelines. The Mediator believes that in the absense of knowledge of such policies or guidelines, the merits of having links to (personal etc.) websites should be evaluated on a case by case basis.
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement with the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss unrelated issues elsewhere.
SSS108, I have been pondering the question of links to websites. I am not asking you to do this work now, but if it should become necesssary, would you be willing to host the various documents which are currently on the opponents sites on your own site? The documents I refer to are those that may be properly used as sources on Wikipedia. Would you be willing to host them in such a way that they are segregated from your other material. That is, a page containing the document would contain just the document, nothing else, and no links to other pages? Please let me know if that is something you would be able or willing to do. --BostonMA 17:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Andries, if SSS108 were to host various documents that are also hosted on sites critical of SSS, and if those documents are on pages which are segregated from the rest of his site, such that they contain only those documents and no links, would you have any objections to the links in the article being changed to point to those pages on SSS108's site? --BostonMA 19:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point out the following links:
A number of Wikipedia policies and guidelines address the use of websites as sources. An issue arises as to whether all links to websites appearing in Wikipedia articles are sources (per those policies and guidelines). In particular, are links within an External Links section sources, and must they meet the requirements of sources? The mediator's understanding of sources, as in verifiable sources or reputable sources refers to "sources for information which is included in an article". These sources may be referenced in the article, but it is not a requirement that they be referenced. It is only a requirement that they be "produced", or an editor may remove the content in question is inadequately sourced. If the sources for an article need not actually appear in the article, it would seem that the converse (I'm not sure of my logic terms here) might also be true, that a reference appearing in the article is not necessarily a source (as meant by the policies and guidelines), but may merely be a reference. Such references might be present merely for the convenience of users of the encyclopedia.
Please express your opinion regarding whether links within Wikipedia articles always constitute sources and need to meet the requirements of sources per policies/guidelines. Please discuss other issues elsewhere. --BostonMA 14:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with Andries statement for the reasons already expressed earlier Reference If the source information is not available, it should be placed on Wikipedia's site and should not be linked to either Pro/Anti sites. Publishing the references on Pro/Anti sites is direct solicitation of one's personal website. Since the websites in question are clearly biased, they are not supposed to be referenced as per Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. It is upto Andries to show us the policy that states otherwise. SSS108 22:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, show us the Wikipedia Policy that states one can link to personal homepages, especially biased ones? I have provided links that support my position regarding this matter:
You should provide the links that support your position. And remember, I am not about the external links section. I am talking about references that link externally to other sites.SSS108 18:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Nowhere does that policy state that one can link to biased, personal webpages. As a matter of fact, the policy you just stated is preceded by policies that explicitly state one cannot link to personal homepages or sites that are biased. What qualifies references to be linked to biased, controversial, personal websites specifically opposed to Sathya Sai Baba? And you forgot to provide the full text. The part you left off said:
If they are no longer online, you should put them on Wikisource. Not on biased, controversial and personal websites specifically opposed to SSB. I am glad you cited this policy. Now you have something to work on: Moving your references to Wikisource. SSS108 19:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Where does wikipedia allow linking to biased, controversial and personal websites? Show us the policy? That is like saying one can link to an Anti-Semitic site, although the linked page is not Anti-Semitic. Your argument has nothing to stand on, except the bias you are trying to promote. SSS108 20:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
"Preferable", not mandatory or required:
Personal Websites As Primary Sources A personal website or blog may be used only as a primary source, i.e., when we are writing about the subject or owner of the website. But even then we should proceed with great caution and should avoid relying on information from the website as a sole source. This is particularly true when the subject is controversial, or has no professional or academic standing.
Personal Websites As Secondary Sources That is, they may never be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website. Another possible exception to this rule occurs when somebody had written secondary source material that is suitable as a reference that he now refutes or corrects on his personal website, though even in this case one should be careful and try to find out the reason why the material has not been published elsewhere.
The reason personal websites are not used as secondary sources — and as primary sources only with great caution and not as a sole source if the subject is controversial — is that they are usually created by unknown individuals who have no one checking their work. They may be uninformed, misled, pushing an agenda, sloppy, relying on rumor and suspicion, or insane; or they may be intelligent, careful people sharing their knowledge with the world. It is impossible to know which is the case. Visiting a stranger's personal website is often the online equivalent of reading an unattributed flyer on a lamp post, and should be treated accordingly.
Partison Websites Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution, although political bias is not in itself a reason not to use a source. Widely acknowledged extremist political or religious websites — for example, those belonging to Stormfront, Hamas, or the Socialist Workers Party — should never be used as sources for Wikipedia, except as primary sources i.e. in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group, but even then should be used with great caution, and should not be relied upon as a sole source.
Your site is partison, biased, controversial and personal. SSS108 20:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
And "external links" link to what, if not sources? And sources are referenced through what means, if not external links? SSS108 21:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Once again, "preferable" does not mean it is mandatory. Especially when the "online source" happens to be partison, biased, controversial and personal. I am not going to repeat myself again. I will let my current statements stand until futher mediation. You have not made your case, in my opinion, citing Wikipedia policy. SSS108 21:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
External links are web links that generally appear in a section at the very end of an article labeled "External Links". The mediator is not convinced that websites to which external links point, must meet the requirements of being reputable or reliable, (requirements that apply to sources for the body of an article). The mediator admits the possibility that he is mistaken, but observes that whether or not external links are free from such requirements, it seems to be common practice for articles on controversial subjects to have external links to POV websites. This common practice is in fact endorsed by the style guide Wikipedia:External links (not policy) which states in part:
It is the mediator's suggestion that the parties agree to abide by the Wikipedia:External links guidelines, and particulary the section quoted, as interpretted by the mediator, at least for the time being. Please express your willingness or unwillingness to abide by this guideline as interpretted in this section. (Note that although many editors abide by one or another guideline, such guidelines are not official policy). Please discuss other issues elsewhere. --BostonMA 02:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Just to make it clear, I am not disputing the links in the external links section. I am disputing the references linked to external sites using external links. Example: references section These referenced links go to external sites that are partison, biased, controversial and personal. SSS108 06:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Web links in Wikipedia articles to sites external to Wikipedia can be a source of contention. Web links may provide a very useful service to readers and editors by furnishing convenient access to source materials. However, the web pages which include the source material, may also include material intended to promote the agenda of the site hosting those materials.
In the mediator's opinion, the degree to which a link to a document may be said to be assisting the promotion of an agenda not supported by Wikipedia depends upon the context in which that document appears. If the document is served on a page or pages which contain no other material, as well as no links to other material, then the promotional effect of a link to that document will be minimal.
The mediator proposes the following guideline. Whenever controversy arises about a link to a document being used to promote an agenda not supported by Wikipedia, if the document is also served on an alternate web page or pages, and that page or those pages contain no other material than the document itself, including no links, then the reference should link to this alternate location. --BostonMA 00:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Please express your willingness or unwillingness to follow this guideline. --BostonMA 00:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, if Andries agrees, I will create a free geocities site to host the references on. I would name the site something along the lines: sathyasairefs and the pages would simply contain a referenced title with referenced text. If Andries agrees, I will create the account. This way the refs are hosted on neither site and would contain no external links. There would be no way to trace this site to either Pro/Anti Sites. I think this is a fair way to deal with the problem. SSS108 talk-email 00:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)