The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. I am closing these as "keep", but without prejudice to taking individual articles to AfD again if there seems sufficient reason to doubt their notability. Bundling these articles here made it very difficult for participants in the debate (and the closer) to judge notability/consensus. Randykitty (talk) 08:29, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dewi Driegen

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Proposing this NMODEL page and for the sake of brevity, other pages below along with it which all have the same problem in common. No verifiability for its bold claims about their respective careers. No reliable sources found or sometimes pure gossip. Really no sources besides modeling agency listings and directories.

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL [User talk:Trillfendi|talk) 02:33, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 09:34, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment How can we possibly assess all of these articles in one AfD? I'm not sure what the same problem they have in common is supposed to be - on a quick look at several, some are sourced only to Models.com, some don't have that as a source and have other sources instead, including magazine articles which need to be assessed for WP:RS .... Please relist separately, so they can each be assessed on their own merits. RebeccaGreen (talk) 11:51, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed in seeing the only one sourced to a defunct online publication which had virtually nothing to do with her career it’d be easy to see why it was proposed with the others. But I guess that’ll have to be a two part-er. So I’ve trimmed it back down to these.Trillfendi (talk) 15:10, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I like your style. I've seen AFDs with more bundled but usually not ones about notability, unless they're all stubs made by the same user. I'd advise nom to keep this open but unlink the bundled ones and just nominate them individually to avoid WP:TRAINWRECK. SITH (talk) 14:08, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:36, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No reliable references cited. Fails WP:GNG Mgbo120 (talk) 09:35, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If the nominator is finally done altering the list of nominated articles, perhaps they could finish the nomination process by adding the proper templates to all of the nominated articles bundled in this nomination? See Template:Afd footer (multiple). Bakazaka (talk) 07:21, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lazily, I assumed it’d all lump together by itself but I’ve now sorted it out. Trillfendi (talk) 07:35, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Question Re Dewi Driegen: Vogue has a profile of her on The Vogue List. [1] I presume that this is a WP:RS, as Vogue magazine is? Also, what about model profiles on New York Magazine? [2] RebeccaGreen (talk) 02:51, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment For Fabiana Semprebom, sources WP:NEXIST: a Google Books search shows snippet views of the following:

Para Ti (2007) - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "She was only 14 years old when a booker from the agency Ten discovered her walking the streets of San Pablo, Brazil "When she saw me, she proposed to take part in a contest and I won." More is visible in the snippet view [3]
Veja Rio (2010) - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "Retirement in half With a curriculum that includes campaigns for brands such as Dolce & Gabbana and Victoria's Secret, the model Fabiana Semperebom inaugurated the fashionable "half-retired"." (Snippet view shows nothing, unfortunately.)
Veja (2007) - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "The four cited as most promising are now guaranteed presence in the fashion circuit: Isabeli Fontana, Mariana Weickert, Fabiana Semperbom and Katarina Scola. Months later, Gisele Bündchen, who already shone on the fashion circuit, ..." (Snippet view shows nothing.)
Manchete (1999) - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "Fabiana Semperbom, one of the stars of the last Morumbi Fashion, came to her hands through an excursion from Maringá, Paraná. Years ago, when Panthera left his international career to return to Brazil, he was .." (Snippet view shows a small part of 4 columns, not possible to see if there's more about Fabiana.)
O Brasil na moda: backstage - Volume 2 (2003) - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "Later they would join the group Mariana Weickert, Talytha Pugliesi, Carolina Bittencourt, Ana Beatriz Barros, Vanessa Greca, Marcelle Bittar, Jeza Chiminazo, Raica, Fabiana Semperbom and Luciana Curtis. They dominated the scene in the two ..." (Snippet view shows a bit more, hard to see if there's more about Fabiana.)

That looks to me as if enough coverage does exist, verifying that she has appeared in the shows the article says she has (and that could verify some content previously deleted for lack of sourcing, such as walking for Victoria's Secret), but it is not easily found online. RebeccaGreen (talk) 03:31, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment For Danita Angell, I found a bit less, and some of what I have found will, I am sure, not be considered WP:RS because they are original magazines for sale on ecommerce sites, or scanned and posted on blogs. However, they do verify some of the content.

Harper's Bazaar, December 1999, Millennium IT list [4]
Vogue Italia, December 1999, inside [5]
Vogue Italia cover, January 2000 [6] (about the 8th post down, or search for Danita).
New York Times Magazine - photographed in the Doris Duke home, February 2001 [7]
New York Times Magazine - photographed in the Mark Twain House in October 2001 - a newspaper article about it in the Hartford Courant [8], and the NYT slideshow of the photos [9]
New York Times Magazine (2000) - another scene [10] RebeccaGreen (talk) 04:14, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment For Fernanda Tavares, here are some things I found:

Elle, Volume 20, Issues 5-7, 2005, text visible in the google search result says "HEAVENLY CREATURES Brazilians such as the amply curvaceous Caroline Ribeiro, Fernanda Tavares, and (official spokeswoman for the push-up bra) Gisele Biindchen have dominated the catwalk in recent years. However, a new ..." (Snippet view shows nothing.)
Allure - Volume 13, Issues 5-8 - Page 56, 2003 - text visible in the google search result says "Versace Intensive Revitalizing eye masks were a hit with the show's makeup artists, who smoothed the cooling gel patches under the eyes of models such as and Karolina Kurkova, Fernanda Tavares, Amber Valletta before applying black ..." (Snippet view shows nothing relevant.)
Travel & Leisure - Volume 30 - Page 131, 2000 - text visible in the google search result says "STYLE/brazil Backstage, 19-year-old Fernanda Tavares—the world's number- two model—is getting her tresses blown out and leading the other models in a sing-along. Fernanda adores Brazilian clothes. On her feet are S2 Haviana flip-flops." Some is visible in snippet view [11], but not enough to see who she was modelling for.
A mulher potiguar: cinco séculos de presença - Page 1 - 2000 - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "In June of this year the beautiful potiguar Fernanda Tavares, of 17 years, pierced the blockade. It is no coincidence that she has been highlighted as the top of the Brazilian tops in the international fashion circuit. "At 20, Fernanda Tavares continues ..." Some is visible in snippet view, on three pages, but not enough to see what it says. [12]
Veja - Issues 1-4 - Page 118, 2005, - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "While a constellation of models ran from one show to another in the MAM, top Fernanda Tavares was circulating around the city, oblivious to the excitement of Fashion Rio. Fernanda spent the week recording four special summer episodes ..." (Snippet view shows nothing.)
An article about Dolce & Gabbana in The Australian Financial Review in November 2018 [13] includes a photo from 2002 of Fernanda Tavares with Dolce, Gabbana, Gisele Bundchen, Esther Canadas, and Naomi Campbell at the unveiling of the Dolce & Gabbana men's fashion collection for the Spring/Summer 2003, in Milan.
Sports Illustrated Swimsuit, 2015, has 'Yu (Tsai) and Me: Fernanda Tavares' [14] It says, "Fernanda first appeared in SI Swimsuit in 2001 and has been a legend ever since. Over the years, her work with photographers James Porto, Terry Richardson, Enrique Badulescu and Jr. Duran stunned readers and left a lasting impression on her career. She has also worked as a runway and commercial model with top-tier labels like Chanel, Prada, Ralph Lauren and Louis Vuitton—just to name a few. And with a successful MTV show in Brazil and a friendship with the wife of NFL football super star Tom Brady, we think it's safe to say Fernanda and her unwavering beauty aren't going anywhere anytime soon!"
There is coverage of her with her husband Murilo Rosa, for verification of the Personal life section. [15]

That looks like sustained coverage to me, and provides verification of some of the significant work she has done. I have not yet searched on her name and the brand names to find sources for each of them - probably more could be found. RebeccaGreen (talk) 05:00, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment for Marcelle Bittar:

Alexander McQueen: Evolution [16] - Alexander McQueen Spring/Summer 2003.
O Brasil na moda: backstage, Volume 2 2003. Same as Fabiana Semprebom - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "Later they would join the group Mariana Weickert, Talytha Pugliesi, Carolina Bittencourt, Ana Beatriz Barros, Vanessa Greca, Marcelle Bittar, Jeza Chiminazo, Raica, Fabiana Semperbom and Luciana Curtis. They dominated the scene in the two ..." (Snippet view shows a bit more, her name is one two pages.)
Veja - Issues 1-4 - Page 8, 2008 - text visible in the google search result says (in translation) "Marcelle Bittar, model, and now host of a TV show, wisely avoiding the turmoil "In my time, they corrected us." Isabel Fillardis, on the models that are shaking the head Gisele: balancing ..." (Snippet view shows nothing.)
There's also plenty of current news coverage about her, in Portuguese - [17], including this [18] which indicates that as of January 2016, she was still working. It says, in rough translation, "With 16 years of brilliant trajectory on the runways, Marcelle Bittar (33) has plenty of reasons to celebrate. Recognized by the four corners of the world and in the list of the most requested tops of the fashion scene, Paraná says that fashion was responsible for major changes in her life. "The contact with different cultures, the trips, the responsibilities still in the adolescence, the challenges and the difficulties that I had to face in the beginning of the race, all this made me mature. Today, I have more peace of mind to make choices and manage my time better, "she points out during her stay at Nannai Resort & Spa, in the paradise of Porto de Galinhas, in Pernambuco. Without thinking about retirement, Marcelle gives tips to anyone who wants to enter the market. "There are a lot of girls betting on this career, which increases competition. Being persistent, determined, professional and responsible is what makes the model different, "teaches the beauty, proud of her deeds. "I never imagined getting where I came from. If I could, I would do it all again, but with the maturity I have today," she says.

Again, that looks like sustained coverage. I could search her name with brand names, to verify work she has done, but there is already more that could be added to the article. RebeccaGreen (talk) 05:26, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all of them. Sources WP:NEXIST, and I really wonder whether WP:BEFORE has been done: "The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search". The articles do need more citations, but that is not a reason to bring them to AfD - "If you find that adequate sources do appear to exist, the fact that they are not yet present in the article is not a proper basis for a nomination. Instead, you should consider citing the sources". RebeccaGreen (talk) 05:30, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

None of the sources I found were credible in my Before, from searching page after page after page of Google, including those from Google Books (sometimes nothing showed up at all...). If a model is a model, she would have sources in fashion magazines, not only some random coffee table books. One thing should be abundantly clear, NYMag’s defunct model profile directory is not enough for an article to stand upon. I can give a bunch of examples of non-notable models who have them too. Being in SI Swimsuit doesn’t automatically create notability, especially if other sources that aren’t SI itself can’t back it up. Being on a tv is not notability if we can’t get verification for it. The Vogue Paris thing I found for Driegen showed a 404 error.

That leaves the only one I can see keeping here: Fernanda Tavares. NEXIST should be NVERIFIABLE.Trillfendi (talk) 06:18, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And I dug, and found the Vogue Paris article on the Wayback Machine. What on earth is wrong with being in a coffee table book? though only one of these sources could be called that anyway .... RebeccaGreen (talk) 06:38, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here in the 21st century, model’s careers are documented by magazines and the Internet. Being in the coffee table books isn’t wrong, duh, but if that’s the only source out there and the references don’t even work it makes no sense.Trillfendi (talk) 08:41, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all as RebeccaGreen has found several supporting sources, there are more sources available in foreign-language media (esp. Portuguese), and the nomination seems to be founded on some basic misunderstandings about WP:N, searches, and sourcing. The fact that the multiple articles in this potential WP:TRAINWRECK are not actually related to each other, and aren't from the same page creator, doesn't help, nor does the nominator's multiple adjustments to the list of nominated subjects during an ongoing AfD. Bakazaka (talk) 16:29, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They are “related” in that I found them on the same page, but that’s neither here nor there. None of them had any reliable sources, only relied on one unreliable source that didn’t explain careers, and when I at least attempted to find sources for them, nothing turned up. I’m not some archaeologist who can find books in people’s living rooms that might have some picture of somebody in it. I go by what can by the things that are concrete. My understanding of WP:N is outlined right there: significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. How does that differ from any article in this database? Trillfendi (talk) 19:51, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all since sources exist.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:11, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The reason I nominated these is that just because sources “exist” out there, doesn’t mean they’re automatically reliable or even usable. Marcelle Bittar stands completely unreferenced. Dewi Driegen only has a models.com profile that doesn’t show anything the article says. Danita Angell has a dead link and a FashionModelDirectory profile. Fabiana Semprebom’s article has absolutely no information about her career and just a models.com profile. I said it at the jump, no sources are out there to even verify this information. Articles must have references that people can actually see and use. These picture books are not meant to support a whole article and should only be used as a last resort if that. If a model does Dior, for example, typically there is a magazine article, whether brief or a spotlight, that exhibits that. Trillfendi (talk) 23:11, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot to mention in the previous comment the reason I nominated Ferndada Tavares was the only source I could find was from New York Post 15 years ago. Trillfendi (talk) 01:00, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for Fabiana Semprebom, Danita Angell and Marcelle Bittar. Weak keep for Fernanda Tavares for her presence in Sports Illustrated [[19]]. My very low threshold due to the majority of the identified sources above being mentions or appearances in foreign language publications is a single media profile in English in a reliable source in the first ten pages of Google results. Besides standard directory listings on the New York Magazine site for Driegen [[20]] and Tavares [[21]], there's nothing else I saw that met this admittedly low bar. With no English biographical info to source from, all four fail WP:GNG, but Tavares just meets the WP:NMODEL carveout for the SI appearance. I'm unconvinced that the others' appearances in fashion magazines are notable enough to meet WP:NMODEL. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 00:55, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Timtempleton: WP:NONENG, which explicitly allows non-English sources, is policy. Bakazaka (talk) 01:15, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bakazaka: sure, but if we have to use them in place of English sources, I expect foreign sources to also be reliable and in-depth - the same standard I'd use if they were all in English. The citations above are passing mentions or asides - I don't see any in-depth profiles of the models in any notable publications, foreign or otherwise. Which ones would you use to make your notability case(s)? TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 01:30, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Timtempleton: For Fernanda Tavares, I'd probably start with some of the 150+ newspaper/periodical database hits (which of course excludes Fernanda Tavares the researcher). For Bittar I'd probably start with the international coverage of her actual fight with Naomi Campbell. For Semprebom I'd start with the Manchete coverage. If I was going to go through and prove NMODEL, I'd probably fetch the magazine references for the various covers, since magazines are reliable sources for their own contents, to verify the achievements listed in the articles. But since this is a WP:VOLUNTEER outfit and time and attention are precious, I'm happy to say "wow, that's a lot of sourcing that was pretty easily found, so let's tag these for improvement and move on". Bakazaka (talk) 01:47, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bakazaka: Tavares was a weak keep, so ultimately no real disagreement there. The other three are the ones in question. I'm not sure that being on the cover of a magazine is enough - if there's nothing else, and no reliable info exists with which to build a reasonable BLP. But if anything this has been a fun afd to research - moving on to less glamorous subjects. Cheers. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 01:53, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 19:29, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This is a field which is heavily dependent upon publicity, and it can be expected that all sources wil be contaminated by PR. We probably in field like this will have to find some othre basis of decision. I'm not familiar enough with the field to be the best person to devise one, bu tthe first question I'd ask is whether we are judging from those best known and most highly thought of within the profession (as we do with many special categories), or those best known to the general public. Read literally, the only applicable criterion for non-pornographic models in nMODEL is that they have a large fan base. DGG ( talk ) 15:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@DGG: It's not always about the general public per se. Many, many, many models who have articles on this website are not household names at all yet have notability criteria in their respective ways. The way the industry trend is these days, Instagram followers are considered a "large fan base" (people like Gigi and Bella Hadid for example) but that doesn't warrant an article, of course. If anything it's just pure unmitigated trivia. On top of it being very mercurial in a lot of ways. If Instagram all of a sudden disappeared I'm sure they'd still have a career. Model Anna Ewers was titled "Model of the Year" for 2015 and she is known for not having "that many" followers compared to other supermodels. What is supposed to make a model's article is their work plus reliable sources. And the way I see it is if we shouldn't have to be digging 5ft to find sources, especially ones we can barely see. Defeats the purpose, really. Trillfendi (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.