The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep Mandsford 13:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Diana West (lactation consultant) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Non-notable, promotional biography. Only claim to notability is as the author of a "national bestselling book" although no citation can be found to support that claim. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 22:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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• comment 8 of the 18 references failed verification.Teapotgeorge^Talk 23:24, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• comment references added 1/18/11User:Robfalk12
• Keep - The self-promotional tone needs to be rectified, but it seems like Ms. West is a widely published and recognized expert in her field and is likely to meet WP notability standards. Carrite (talk) 05:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Ms. West is widely regarded as an expert in the field of lactation. She has co-authored the 8th edition of the bible book of breastfeeding "The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding", and is an expert in low milk supply and breastfeeding after breast surgery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.197.59 (talk) 12:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC) — 70.53.197.59. (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• Keep - Notable in the field of lactation, specifically lactation for women who have had breast surgery or have low milk production. Needs work, but salvageable. The New Zealand Ministry of Health note that one of her books is considered 'essential reading' for women with breast reduction or augmentation issues. - ManicSpider (talk) 13:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: This is bucking the tide, perhaps, but I have doubts that the Keep proponents have actually done the research here. A Google News search for West turned up only a similarly named (but unrelated) Washington Post columnist [1]; there are zero hits for this West. In order for a subject to pass WP:AUTHOR, "The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of ... multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." I found exactly one such article, by a blogger whose column reviewed nine baby books and gave only two sentences to this one. Another criterion is "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors." This can not be assumed; it must be proven by citing reliable sources which explicitly say so, something that the various sources propounded by keep proponents fail to do. If she passes the GNG, there must be multiple reliable sources discussing her (not the book for which she was not, in fact, the lead author, according to that one review) in "significant detail." Where are they, please?  Ravenswing  14:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - There is no coverage in reliable sources to establish notability. I've no doubt she speaks at conferences and whatnot, but this has not generated coverage about her. with respect to being the co-author of the 8th edition of an arguably notable book, I would argue that the book probably achieved whatever notability it has prior to the 8th edition. I note that she is not a co-author of the 7th edition. I am of course open to changing my !vote if somebody can present coverage in reliable sources, but I don't see that in the article, and can find none myself. -- Whpq (talk) 15:31, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:33, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:34, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete The article provides not a single Reliable Source reference, and I could not find any at Google News or Google Scholar. --MelanieN (talk) 01:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep N, RS, V --Katie Sweetmore (talk) 15:28, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm assuming that N, RS, and V are meant to mean that notability, reliability sourcing and verifiabiility have been met. However, you need to explain how they are met. -- Whpq (talk) 15:31, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Ms. Sweetmore is a SPA who's been spamming AfDs with this self-same vote.  Ravenswing  16:00, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP Beyond all of her other accomplishments, Diana West’s book Defining your Own Success: Breastfeeding After Breast Reduction Surgery’’ is the definitive text on the subject for the worldwide lactation community. For that reason alone, I would expect her to have a page on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.103.188 (talk) 18:06, 20 January 2011 (UTC) — 67.174.103.188 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

KEEP http://www.llli.org/books/bfar.html

KEEP http://www.llli.org/NB/NBNovDec01p222.html

KEEP http://www.llli.org/NB/NBJulAug08p27a.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.103.188 (talk) 18:16, 20 January 2011 (UTC) — 67.174.103.188 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

One Keep will do. Citing the book's publisher as a reliable source about the import of this book is hardly useful. (Please review guidelines on primary sources). There is no citation to state that Defining your Own Success... is the definitive text on the subject. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, no citation except the one I added yesterday and these ones... - ManicSpider (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure which citation you are referring to, since you completely restructured the article making it impossible to see what particular citation you might have added. I don't see that any of the citations in the present article define West's text as the "definitive source" on the topic, and the link you added here merely indicates that the book received some reviews. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you go to the article and click on the tab "View History" you can see all the individual edits, labelled with what I was doing. You can then look at those edits to see what changes I made. The sources were added after the restructure, and are at the top. However, for ease of reference I'm referring specifically to note 14. I admit it doesn't use the exact phrase "definitive source", but I think getting hung up on that phrase is unhelpful as it was a contribution by a participant in this discussion and not something we're required to look for under the guidelines. - ManicSpider (talk) 20:25, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, not being a member of the subject website, I can't view the contents of that review. I'll assume good faith and stipulate that it is a positive review of the book. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:29, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was a bit confused by your comment as I'm not a member of the site either, but I now see that my work has a subscription which is why I'm able to view it. I'll see if I can find a link that is actually useful for other people ^_^ - ManicSpider (talk) 22:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Diana west has made a huge impact on the lives of countless families with her books and her support of breastfeeding after breast reduction. I may be doing this all wrong, but I just want to support keeping this page up. It seems to me what needs to be defined in some way is the value of the information in her books; what she has written. There are lactation reference books available, and Ms. West's are part of that group. Many La Leche League Leaders keep the book Making More Milk for the mothers that show up to their support meetings. IMO what has made her books so valuable and worthy of a page here is the successful intervention they have effected in many struggling nursing dyads. Does the voice of the mother she helps need to get much louder to be heard? I do not claim to know Diane West, but I think Wikipedia would be remiss to leave out such a person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rinamoon (talk • contribs) 06:02, 21 January 2011 (UTC) — Rinamoon (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

• Comment: Do you happen to have any arguments based on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to offer?  Ravenswing  15:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• COMMENT: Hi, all. I’m Diana West, IBCLC, the person who is the subject of this discussion. Although I did not write the original page, I’m weighing in to address some of the questions about my credentials that have been raised because I probably know the answers best. I did not post earlier because I worried that it would be inappropriate to post on my own behalf, but I have been reassured that it is ok to do if I can provide solid information to address the issues that have been raised.
  

I can certainly understand your questions about my validity. You’ve never heard of me, probably because you haven’t breastfed personally or you don’t have kids who are breastfed. Or breastfeeding went easily for you or the women in your life. In my field of lactation, though, I’ve have become increasingly well-known over the last 15 years as a leading expert through my publications and lectures because my work has been helpful to breastfeeding women and professionals all over the world. I'm pretty down-to-earth and never make a big deal about it, so, as you can imagine, to have it come into doubt is really surreal.

Interestingly, the book that seems to be best establishing my credibility here is my least known, but it certainly was seminal. Defining Your Own Success: Breastfeeding after Breast Reduction Surgery was the first book to discuss this topic of breastfeeding after breast surgery and to encourage women to breastfeed even when they didn’t have full milk supplies. Although it is ten years old now, it is still the only and best resource on this topic. The review from the Journal of Human Lactation substantiating this fact has already been posted. In 2008, I co-authored with a plastic surgeon, Breastfeeding After Breast and Nipple Procedures, a more extensive clinical monograph for health care professionals addressing and expanding the topic. It was very positively reviewed by the International Lactation Consultant Association,^[1] publisher of the Journal of Human Lactation. The accompanying website I created, Breastfeeding After Reduction, was recommended in the most recent edition of the popular What to Expect When You Are Expecting book.^[2]

My last two books have been even more successful. The Breastfeeding Mother’s Guide to Making More Milk, by McGraw-Hill^[3] is very highly regarded because it was a landmark book -- first ever on the topic of low milk supply and very helpful to many women and lactation professionals. It is ranked highly on Amazon. It was very positively reviewed by the International Lactation Consultant Association,^[4] publisher of the Journal of Human Lactation. There are many blogs and websites raving about Making More Milk,^[5] including People Magazine’s online blog.^[6] It is recommended on About.com,^[7] Suite 101,^[8] and Blisstree.^[9] This book has been referenced four times in the landmark 2010 lactation textbook, Breastfeeding Answers Made Simple by Nancy Mohrbacher.^{[10] [11] [12] [13]} It was included as a top breastfeeding reference book in the 2009 edition of 25 Things Every Nursing Mother Needs to Know by Kathleen Huggins and Jan Ellen Brown, published by Harvard Common Press.^[14]

My most recent book, The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding, 8th edition, by Ballantine Books, a division of Random House,^[15] is selling exceptionally well (regularly ranked under 1,000 on Amazon), not because it was already a well-known title from previous editions, but because my co-authors and I completely rewrote it from scratch, expanded it, and brought it into the 21st century with a contemporary, humorous tone. It is the first time it has been published by a true publishing house and it was the first time the authors were credited – which was done because our names are well-known it helps to sell the books. It was a national bestseller in July 2010 in USA Today, the first breastfeeding book to reach this pinnacle.^[16] The reviews have been outstanding, clearly establishing it as a leading resource for breastfeeding mothers (Motherwear blog, July, 2010^[17]; Breastfeeding Moms Unite blog^[18]; Strocel blog^[19]; iVillage^[20]; and many more). It was listed as a must-have product for new mothers on Pregnancy 360, in Pregnancy Magazine’s website.^[21] The professional review by the International Lactation Consultant Association is currently in press and will appear in the next issue.

To address the question about my not being lead author, I'm second only because we had three equal authors and drew straws to see who would be listed first -- it's definitely not that I contributed less that the first listed author. The article that we wrote, Tinker to Evers to Chance in Breastfeeding Today, January, 2010, discussed our writing process.^[22]

The Breastfeeding Mother’s Guide to Making More Milk and the 8th edition of The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding were pictured in a photo layout in Pregnancy & Newborn magazine in the August 2010 issue, picturing the most popular books for new mothers.^[23]

I've written many articles for large-circulation magazines (Essence Magazine, Lead Article: Maximising Milk Production for Your New Baby, January, 2008; Essence Magazine, Lead Article: Breastfeeding After Breast Surgery, November, 2005^[24]; New Beginnings Magazine, Lead Article: How to Get Your Milk Supply Off to a Good Start, July-August, 2005 (co-authored with Lisa Marasco)^[25]; Mothering Magazine, Lead Article: The Good News About Lactation After Breast Surgery, October-November, 2004^[26]; New Beginnings: Making More Milk, April, 2009^[27]; New Beginnings Magazine: Ten Nursing Pitfalls, May, 2009^[28]; New Beginnings Magazine, The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding, Excerpt from Chapter Three: Birth!, October, 2009^[29]; one of my articles was translated into German in Stillzei Magazine, August 2006; Leaven Magazine, Lead Article: Breastfeeding After Breast Reduction Surgery, August-September, 2002. I am quoted by many others, including Fit Pregnancy.^[30]

I am frequently interviewed on radio shows, including recently on Dr. Radio on August 10, 2010. A podcast was recorded of an interview of me for Motherwear’s Breastfeeding Blog^[31] and The Vicky and Jen Radio Show.^[32]

My publications have led to invitations to lecture all over the world at international conferences (Australia, Austria, Israel, Spain, Taiwan, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Canada), where only the most prominent leaders in the field are invited, plus hundreds of locations in the US. My visit to Malaysia was announced in their popular Pa & Ma magazine.^[33]

I was the Director of Professional Development on the Board of Directors of the International Lactation Consultant Association^[34] and the Monetary Investment for Lactation Consultant Certification because of my reputation, publications, and leadership abilities. I'm currently an editor for Clinical Lactation,^[35] a peer-reviewed journal, which is no small feat.

I'm definitely not the same person as the Diana West who is the political commentator, but I'm pretty well-known in my own right among mothers and lactation professionals and am quite widely published as my credentials clearly validate.

I hope these citations have helped to clearly establish my credibility. If anything further is required, I will be pleased to provide it. In closing, please let me commend you all very highly on your integrity and critical analysis of the information on Wikipedia. I use it often, but have never seen the development side. I’m deeply impressed and will trust information I read on it even more now. Thank you for your time and devotion to this tremendous worldwide resource. Athena88 (talk) 21:02, 21 January 2011 (UTC)Diana West, IBCLC[reply]

Reply - Thanks for your input Diana. I'm looking forward to going through those new sources you provided. Just so you're sure, no-one is doubting your credibility as a lactation consultant, just your notability under the Wikipedia guidelines. Personally, I am strongly of the belief that you fulfill WP:CREATIVE#1. Thanks and regards, - ManicSpider (talk) 21:17, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Changing my vote to Keep: I've looked over some of the links Ms. West provides, and they satisfy me as to her standing as an authority in the field.  Ravenswing  22:21, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Ten seconds on Google alone provides numerous independent and verifiable sources. Maybe the article needs some sort of clean-up tag, but I am unconvinced that the article does not meet the standards of the guidelines.Agent 86 (talk) 00:47, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - I just noticed that on the Discussion page TeapotGeorge asked for a list of my speaking engagements for this year and last. I added them. ManicSpider, thanks so much for your reassurance about this process. I'm fine with it, but it's so nice that you were so kind with a newcomer.  :)Athena88 (talk) 14:56, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Notable. - Ret.Prof (talk) 03:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cirt (talk) 03:51, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I'm a little surprised this was held over rather than ruled a "Keep" or a "No Consensus." In review, it doesn't seem there is much if any third-party written biographical information out there, BUT it is equally clear that this is a widely published and acknowledged professional in her field. It's a bit of an offbeat pursuit, perhaps, but there does seem to be significant academic and professional work in the field of lactation consultation, including conferences (at which Ms. West has spoken) and journals (in which Ms. West has published). While not a clearcut slam-dunk sort of call, the position of Ms. West as a recognized expert in a legitimate field of academic and scientific endeavor, combined with her extensive publication history (one title being put to 8 editions) seems sufficient to me for an administrator to BOLDLY keep this article — tagged as necessary for improvement. Carrite (talk) 06:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Being bold is a great idea when editing an article. It is often not such a great idea when closing a discussion. As you say there is not a "slam dunk" to keep the article. The hope is that a clearer consensus will develop in the additional week. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:21, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the now extensive evidence that she is widely cited as an expert in the field.--Arxiloxos (talk) 08:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.