The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Article has been improved since nomination. (non-admin closure) ASTIG️🙃 _{(ICE-T • ICE CUBE)} 21:15, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second lady (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Largely a US term. Not really a role elsewhere but a substitute term for vice president / deputy PM spouse if used at all. WP:NOTDICTIONARY Hariboneagle927 (talk) 14:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people and Politics. Hariboneagle927 (talk) 14:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep Found use of the term outside the U.S. in Ghana and Kenya. Will look for other examples later but also not opposed to a redirect to the U.S.-centric article. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• For me it is a keep given there are many media examples of the term being used around the world. That said, it is going to be a tough page to write as the sources are referring to different things. JMWt (talk) 14:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep in some sort of capacity. Whether it's redirected to First lady and discussed there in a sentence, or it's kept and expanded upon with what their duties may entail. There is obviously enough routine coverage of the term "second lady" that an article or redirect is due on Wikipedia. Why? I Ask (talk) 14:48, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect/merge to First_lady#Variations. It's not clear how many of the examples in the list are actually called second lady or have any sort of official duties. Only a few of them even have links, and some of those are notable because they've also been first lady. The use of "Third lady" is obviously original research. Regardless, the concept is so closely related to first lady that a separate article isn't needed to explain it. Reywas92^Talk 15:01, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: It is an international term. This term is used in outside of the US. You can see example Second Lady of Brazil, Second Lady of Ghana, Second Lady of Guatemala, Second Lady of South Korea and Second Lady of India. ​​​​​​​𝐋𝐨𝐫𝐝𝐕𝐨𝐥𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐭𝟕𝟐𝟖🧙‍♂️^{Let's Talk !} 15:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This term is also used in Indonesia. Second Spouses of Indonesia. ​​​​​​​𝐋𝐨𝐫𝐝𝐕𝐨𝐥𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐭𝟕𝟐𝟖🧙‍♂️^{Let's Talk !} 09:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  To be clear, the article in Indonesian is called "List of wives and husbands of Vice Presidents of Indonesia". Someone may have just applied an American term to a foreign topic. Reywas92^Talk 14:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per Presidentman and LordVoldemort728. Sal2100 (talk) 21:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Sal2100 (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect/merge to First lady § Variations. Thanks to LordVoldemort728 for noticing more examples documented on Wikipedia. However, even with additional cited uses, I find myself wondering what is the ideal article for Second lady. Frankly, I believe it is virtually identical to First lady, and therefore I think that these topics are better discussed in the same article. I would not be opposed to a List of second ladies, but don't think a full article on Second lady is appropriate. Daask (talk) 03:21, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep but rework extensively including deleting all the OR. The article in its current state is problematic but fixable. What is totally missing is secondary sources specifically focusing on "role of the second lady" (or "second gentleman") rather than just pointing to instances where the term is used, but having had a quick scan of Wikipedia Library, those sources do exist. I just spent time on Spouse of the president of Singapore and dealt with all the category issues related to that, so am inclined to help fix. Cielquiparle (talk) 11:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect/merge, as per Daask and Reywas92. I concede there is some usage of second lady but there is not much material to work with at the moment especially on second lady as a role.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 13:43, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I am still updating the article right now. (I was deleting content from the page when you reviewed it, but have started adding back more with citations.) I was on the fence for a while about whether or not there really was enough to justify keeping a standalone article, but I still think the answer is yes. (However, it may well be the case that at least one of those country-specific Second Lady articles should be deleted.) Cielquiparle (talk) 14:55, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep it is notable and Cielquiparle has reworked the article. bravo. Lightburst (talk) 18:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment Cielquiparle has done an admirable job improving the status of the article. However, I am still not persuaded that this article should exist. The best content currently present is regarding Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States, which already exists elsewhere. Is any content of this article relevant to more than one country? Can the role in different countries be said to be the same role? Most importantly, are there any sources which discuss the role of second lady in a generic way, not specific to any jurisdiction? If not, this article seems like WP:SYNTH where we're trying to gather disparate sources to create a new shared construct linking them. Daask (talk) 16:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I would also maintain my merge vote. The article now has undue weight for the US, none of which section is about the broader topic of second ladies and is relevant to that main article only. If kept, this should be cut down to basically a disambiguation page if little can be said about second ladies more generally. Reywas92^Talk 04:11, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - this is a notable subject deserving a separate page. My very best wishes (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, very worthy subject of being kept. Davidgoodheart (talk) 00:57, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Still !keep from me. The comments were all super helpful in expanding and revising. The thing that surprised me most was how much focused coverage there was on both the term and the role of the American "second lady" if you looked hard enough, such as "'Second lady' has been in use for at least 127 years" and "The Second Ladies in the Shadow's Shadow", both from The Washington Post; "Merriam-Webster adds 'second gentleman' to describe Doug Emhoff's role" in CNN; and "So what does the Veep's wife do, anyway?" in Marie Claire, in addition to the White House Historical Association's take (strictly speaking, not independent), called "Second Spouses: Historical Development of an Official Role". I tried to keep the history part to a minimum, as it's better covered in Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States as the main article, but only tried to hit on key examples that showed individual second ladies who defined their roles in slightly different ways in practice. Similarly, for spouse of the lieutenant governor, I mentioned the current Second Lady of Pennsylvania, who styles herself using the acronym "SLOP" per CNN, as she has taken a stand in use of the term and defining what it means for her. For usage of the term in other countries, there is definitely room to expand by using non-English sources, but from initial reading of easily accessible sources in English, there was a lot of discussion about the actual role of second lady in countries such as Ghana (e.g. the topic of salaries for spouses) and Nigeria (e.g. second lady as drafter of legislation) – and incidentally I wouldn't necessarily assume that those countries are looking to the US in using that title (even if the US is influential). Further lines of secondary research could also pursue the expression "second lady in/of the land" and how it has evolved over centuries, originating from monarchical roots. In any case I think there is enough content and sourcing in this Second lady article now for it to merit its own standalone page, and think it would be an awkward and distracting fit to force it into the page for First lady which is already complicated enough as it is, given all the different ways the topic is matrixed (by country, etc.), and no, I would argue (especially in the case of the US) that "second lady" isn't necessarily just a variation of "first lady", even if there are connections and similarities. Yes, further improvement and discussion is welcome, but that can easily take place outside of AfD. Cielquiparle (talk) 11:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This is great content and I appreciate your writing and research, but I've moved the Role in practice section over to Second ladies and gentlemen of the United States. That sort of detailed history with what individual second ladies did is specific to the US and is very needed on that article but is not relevant to one that is a broader overview of the term internationally. Reywas92^Talk 14:40, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Nice! Thanks for rearranging the jigsaw puzzle across articles. Cielquiparle (talk) 15:58, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.