The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. --Ezeu 20:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Third holiest site in Islam

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Article misuses WP:V to present numerous sources of dubious reliability and violates Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information. Amerique 07:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The terminology 3rd site by its virtue came from a hadith by Prophet Muhammad. It is really wrong to cite from here and there to prove otherwise. If this article is written to explain this terminology used in Islam, it is fine. The article went far beyond explaining this to actually try and dispute it. Something that cannot be really understood and is certainly not anymore explaining an Islamic terminology. Almaqdisi 10:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment But surely you realize that the article makes no attempt at distinguishing between so-called "claims," beliefs or opinions gathered from various sources, that could be mistaken, from any actual differences in theology between various sects of Islam? The article regards any and all sources with any reference to a third Islamic holy site as equal, rendering undue weight Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight to spurious material and suggesting that all these assorted assertions should be taken equally seriously. This is specious logic. Any actual differences between various sects of Islam, or any religion, would be appropriately discussed within the pages devoted to documenting these distinct religions, including the pages devoted to particular sites that for reasons I can't pretend to know are holy to them, rather than mixing all such sites up with spurious references in an apparent attempt to denature the significance of all forms of Islam and the meaning any such site has within particular forms of Islam. This page seems to me entirely intended to stir up unnecessary conflict and while this is not strictly prohibited on WP I don't find it at all usefull for most users except those users who would get a laugh out of doing this.--Amerique 11:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That claims, beliefs or opinions could be mistaken is a very strange thing to assume. Let’s take the example of the tour guides. They are not just bits of information thought up by the writer. Someone has actually gone to the place, done research, interacted with the locals to get a review of the place. These are then placed in the guide. Their beliefs are mistaken according to you because in your opinion they are wrong! But I agree we could tidy it up and emphasise more clearly where the theological disputes lie. Undue weight doesn’t apply here, because the original article was included under Al Aqsa Mosque, but was considered to be “undue weight” and therefore a new article was created to conform with the following statement in Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight: views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. This article is devoted to the subject. Additionally, if all the views were to be added to their respective articles it would be difficult to assess all the claims simultaneously. Chesdovi 12:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "Someone has actually gone to the place, done research, interacted with the locals to get a review of the place. These are then placed in the guide." Are you forgetting that travel agencies exist to do business? Do you think that they'll show any miserable poverty, organized crime and such in a tourist brochure?. And there is 1 dead link, and another outdated faculty handbook that the author himself said contained an error, yet you insist that the old version be linked to and you uploaded it to a freewebs account bearing my username. Also this topic is very well discussed in the List of holy cities article [1]. There is no need to make separate articles for such things like "The fourth tallest building in every country in Asia" etc. Then why not create several articles like "Sixth holiest city in Christianity", "Fourth Holiest site in Buddhism" etc. Thestick 14:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thestick, you state that the old edition contained an "error", an error left undetected for 2 years 4 months? Was it you who has been in touch with the author for the sole reason of discrediting the source and arranged for a new version to be downloaded on the same link dated 2003 (not 2005)?! The new edition may not mention anything about the mosque, but neither is there a “places to visit” section. In the new version the whole section was left out completely; so who’s to say that just the mosque bit was an “error”?!
Btw travel guides regularly warn tourists of “no-go” areas and to be cautious of pickpockets, etc. They also give a brief synopsis of the area, including details of whether there is poverty, etc. Take the following from wikitravel as an example: Gaza isn't quite the pure hellhole you might expect given TV coverage, although needless to say the birthplace of the Intifada and one of the most overpopulated bits on the entire planet isn't exactly paradise on earth either. A UN report in 1952 stated that the Strip is too small to support its population of 300,000; there are now well over one million inhabitants and the January 2002 latest figures from the Palestinian Authority put unemployment at a whopping 79%. Most inhabitants are Palestinian refugees who fled the 1948 war but were denied entry into Egypt proper. Chesdovi 16:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
“There is no need to make separate articles for such things like "The fourth tallest building in every country in Asia”
That’s because they are concrete (excuse the pun) facts and are not the subject of ambiguity. (They are listed on wikipedia’s more exclusive pages, e.g: List of tallest buildings in Toronto). However the third holiest site is a common term, and itself a matter of debate with numerous other sites vying for the position! That is why it requires its own page.Chesdovi 16:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not going to bother arguing since any source that states anything else other than the Al-Aqsa mosque is the third holiest site in Islam is perfectly acceptable to the creator of the article. Wikitravel is different from some travel agency that needs to make money. And yes, that error went undetected for more than 2 years, until you brought it to their attention. Also, there is no other source on the internet that says the Jawatha mosque is the third holiest site in Islam. To understand the political inclination just take a look at the first version of the article [2] Thestick 16:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, till I did (sleepy) but let's not deviate of the topic Thestick 17:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no question that this article is not written to explain an Islamic concept but rather to spread confusion about it and false information. You cannot just bring any claim and say that some muslims believe that this is a 3rd Holy site etc. I wonder why not finding out also what some muslims consider the fourth site in Islam? What might be also the Second? What is the first? This article is becoming a polling station and not explaining a well-established undisputed Islamic terminology appearing in authentic Islamic texts? When saying "in Islam", is different than saying "by some Muslims". I believe the article is just written to dispute the Importance of Jerusalem in Islam. Almaqdisi 15:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thestick, it is interesting that whenever the al aqsa mosque is mentioned the need to assert it as the “third holiest site”, goes hand in hand. THIS is the recent creation. A recent creation aimed at aiding the political intentions of the Muslim world. If, as you demonstrated, it IS the 3rd holiest, why stop there, whenever a Muslim holy site is mentioned, say what number down the list it comes? Is Baghdad known as the fourth holiest, Samarkand as the tenth holiest? Etc. I will settle for deleting the page if on the Al Aqsa mosque page or any other on wikipedia, no reference is made that it known as the “third holiest site”.
  • Almaqdisi, no one doubts the importance in Islam of Jerusalem. However whenever the term “third holiest” is applied to the temple mount complex, the absolute holiness of the place to another, older religion is disputed, dented, and sidelined. Why the need to emphasise the third, fourth, etc.? It is to bolster the claim. This is an unnecessary politically motivated term which should be discarded. Chesdovi 17:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thestick: "why not create several articles like "Sixth holiest city in Christianity", "Fourth Holiest site in Buddhism" etc. Well, it seems it is only Muslims who insist on short listing there sites! If there are enough of a variety for the other religions, why not? In fact I intend to do so, and I'm sure it won't cause such a ruckus as it has done with the Muslims. Chesdovi 17:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thestick: Google search: “third holiest site Buddhism”, Result: The noble sanctuary, the third holiest site in Islam. Google search: “third holiest site Christianity”. Result: Jerusalem, the third holiest city in Islam.
You see, it’s only the Muslims who refer to any site as the third holiest. This is for a reason, not just because it happens to be so! Chesdovi 17:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • ^ The above responses confirm the political/religious/whatever inclinations of this article.. Furthermore, this is an AfD page, not a page to discuss politics, anyway I'll answer your points one by one :
  • "I will settle for deleting the page if on the Al Aqsa mosque page or any other on wikipedia, no reference is made that it known as the “third holiest site”. ". -Then to be fair, any reference made in the temple mount article that it is the holiest site in Judaism will have to be removed too (This is based on your argument, I don't feel this needs to be done).
  • You cannot compare a site which is considered the holiest to a religion to one which is third holiest. Once upon a time a site considered the holiest was a point of interest, now because of Muslim discomfort at the situation in Jerusalem, it has to be extended to the "third holiest"!? Chesdovi 17:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Al Aqsa mosque has been mentioned as the third holiest site in Islamic doctrine for over ~1400 years. This has already been shown to you time and time again, yet you still keep saying it is a recent political creation based on an erroneous and hardline article circulating through some hardline Jewish POV websites that does not qualify for WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NPOV. If you want to post information based on that article, this is not the place to do it.
  • "it IS the 3rd holiest, why stop there, whenever a Muslim holy site is mentioned, say what number down the list it comes". - There are only '3' according to mainstream Islam, and the articles about all 3 of them contain which number down the list it comes.
  • "It is to bolster the claim. This is an unnecessary politically motivated term which should be discarded." - This is nothing but your personal POV.
  • "Thestick: Google search: “third holiest site Buddhism”, Result: The noble sanctuary, the third holiest site in Islam. Google search: “third holiest site Christianity”. Result: Jerusalem, the third holiest city in Islam." - I seriously dont understand what this has to do with the AfD proposal of this article, but - Try running those searches again, this time with the whole phrase in double quotes.
  • Doesn't help, I even tried with quadruple double quotes and it never fails to come up with Islam’s third holiest site, the first result noch! No third holiest site in buddhism. Sorry! Chesdovi 11:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However whenever the term “third holiest” is applied to the temple mount complex, the absolute holiness of the place to another, older religion is disputed, dented, and sidelined." - Once again, this is nothing but your personal POV
  • "You see, it’s only the Muslims who refer to any site as the third holiest. This is for a reason, not just because it happens to be so!" - They are most certainly not the only ones, and again, just your erroneous POV. Thestick 18:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Chesdovi, The word third comes from a hadith that says, that the virtue of praying at the site of al-Masjid al-Aqsa, or al-Masjid al-Haram or Masjid al-Madina is not like any other place. The hadith talks about the virtue and reward of praying at these sites. It does not talk about Holiness. The word Holy, 'Mukaddas' is not mentioned in the Hadith. Therefore, the Hadith continues, only to these 3 sites you may go on journey, and anywhere else on this earth, the prayer has the same virtue. There are no political agendas etc, this has been said 1400 years ago. These sites were chosen by the following Prophets of Islam: Ibrahim and his sons, Yakub and his sons, and Muhammad.
According to Islamic teachings, the Quran allocates much of its text arguing that the Message of the Prophets of Islam as being one message, from the same God (Allah, or Elohim). Furthermore, regarding the Temple Mount, historical sources show that when Muslims entered Jerusalem during the time of Umar, they did not find Jews having any temple or worshiping at the site. Hence, the Covenant of Umar did not address that, and only mentioned protecting the Churchs of the Christians etc. No mentionig of protecting the Temple Mount as a site for Jews. Having said so, Muslims believe they fullfilled the Prophecy of other previous Prophets of Islam by re-constructing the Masjid, 2nd after Mecca' masjid, that was mentioned and illuded at various places in the Quran text. Almaqdisi 18:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Almaqdisi, a few observations:
"The word third comes from a hadith that says, that the virtue of praying at the site of al-Masjid al-Aqsa, or al-Masjid al-Haram or Masjid al-Madina is not like any other place. The hadith talks about the virtue and reward of praying at these sites." Please provide where it says that the mosque in Jerusalem is Third and Holy. The following hadith places Jerusalem second in the list: Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:31:215, maybe it is therefore second holiest? It may be more virtuous, but is that isn’t the same as holiness. Maybe it should be called third virtuous site in Islam?
"It does not talk about Holiness. The word Holy, 'Mukaddas' is not mentioned in the Hadith. Therefore, the Hadith continues, only to these 3 sites you may go on journey, and anywhere else on this earth, the prayer has the same virtue." If it doesn’t actually say holy – why is it called third holiest? The temple is called beit haMikdash – the Holy house – no ambiguity there! Maybe it should be called "the third pilgrim site in Islam".
"There are no political agendas etc, this has been said 1,400 years ago". What has been said 1,400 years ago? Provide the word holy. Did Muhammed say it was a holy place or just a good place to say a pray in? Jacob also never said it was a holy place but he summed it up 500 times better than the hadith does: "He was afraid and said: How awesome is this place, it is none other than the house of God and the gate to heaven":
“they did not find Jews having any temple or worshiping at the site. Hence, the Covenant of Umar did not address that, and only mentioned protecting the Churchs of the Christians etc. No mentionig of protecting the Temple Mount as a site for Jews.”According to you, Neither was it a place of muslim worship as the Masjid had to be re-constructed. Umer found Jews in Jerusalem did he find any Muslims? Yes the ones who he had come with him, sword in hand, to occupy the city and the Jews holy site as Kaab al-Ahbar told him.
"Muslims believe they fulfilled the Prophecy of other previous Prophets of Islam by re-constructing the Masjid, 2nd after Mecca' masjid". I thought the second mosque was Jwatha, the site of Muhammad second Friday prayer?
There are also other hadiths which say otherwise:Our sixth imam, Imam Sardeg, says that we have five definitive holy places that we respect very much. The first is Mecca, which belongs to God. The second is Medina, which belongs to the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the messenger of God. The third belongs to our first imam of Shia, Ali, which is in Najaf. The fourth belongs to our third imam, Hussein, in Karbala. The last one belongs to the daughter of our seventh imam and sister of our eighth imam, who is called Fatemah, and will be buried in Qom. Pilgrims and those who visit her holy shrine, I promise to these men and women that God will open all the doors of Heaven to them. Is there something missing? Chesdovi 11:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The site is among the 3 holiest sites in Islam. First it is the Masjid Al-Haram, second is Al-Masjid al-Nabawi at last is Al-Aqsa Mosque. There are several virtues of the Al-Aqsa Mosque which ave been shown to you time and time again yet still fail to understand it. It's obvious from your previous comments that all you are trying to do is discredit this well established historical and theological fact by any means necessary because for some reason you feel by saying it is the third holiest site in Islam "the absolute holiness of the place to another, older religion is disputed, dented, and sidelined.".This article is a result of that, and it's content is just WikiLawyering Thestick 16:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chesdovi, I repeat. There are many hadiths that discusses al-Masjid al-Aqsa. There is one of them mentioning that it is the second masjid designated to worhsip Allah on earth. The first was masjid al-Haram, the second is masjid al-Aqsa. These spots were chosen by God according to muslims long long before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad. In Quran, prophet Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets of Islam. Prophet Muhammad called to the same Religion of Ibrahim and Ismail and Isaac and Jacob according to Quran. These are Quranic statements. Hence, 1400 years ago, these Hadiths mentioned the virtue of praying at al-Aqsa mosque. Only these sites which were built by Prophets have such a virtue. Anywhere else, does not. This is mentioend in [Mosque] article anyway. There is really no need to confuse things up. It is not true to keep arguing that the Shiites discredit Jerusalem position in Islam. Do you have a conclusive evidence. Hezbollah, which is Shiite, would strongly disgree with this. AhmadiNajad himself disagree with that. Finally, there is no point to keep looking around to find and Quote just any muslims who talks about what he thinks is holy and what is not. I can find many websites on the internet which mentions that no vistited that moon!! This is a distortion and are not considered authentic sources. Just giving names here and there will not be as credible as sources muslims continue to use for 1400 all attributed to the Prophet of Islam Muhammad. Almaqdisi 20:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Sahih Bukhari quotes Abu al-Dardaa as saying: "the Prophet of Allah Muhammad said a prayer in the Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) is worth 100,000 prayers; a prayer in my mosque (in Medina) is worth 1,000 prayers; and a prayer in al-Masjid al-Aqsa is worth 500 prayers more than in an any other mosque.
  • Then Mecca should be known as the most holiest site in Islam and Jerusalem as “the least holiest site in Islam”? I mean 500 is quite a drop from 100,000. Should Al Aqsa be on the virtuous list at all? Chesdovi 12:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Praying anywhere else on the earth apart from these three mosques has the same virtue according to the Islamic teachings. It is also described as being the second masjid established on earth (by Jacob) after the one in Mecca (by Abraham). Finally, the same spot was the first Qibla. Hence, if the terminology Third Holiest is used by some, it is really meant to be Third masjid by its virtue. Almaqdisi 06:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • what about the following: It should also be noted that in regard to Fazilat (auspiciousness), as per few references, it is learnt that the Great Mosque of Kufa is better than the mosque of Al-Aqsa. Hazrat Imam Muhammad Bakar had told that if anybody who performs his essential prayer in this mosque, shall be given a benefit of one Haj and if any person performs non-essential prayer in this mosque shall be given the benefit of one Umra. And Dargah Sharief in Ajmer, the most famous Muslim pilgrimage center in India. It is considered the second holiest pilgrim site after Mecca - it is believed that seven pilgrimages to Ajmer equal one to Mecca.Chesdovi 12:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only source which says the great mosque of Kufa is the third holiest site in Islam is someones personal 8m website which Im sure isnt qualified for WP:RS. And the only source of the Dargah Sharief claim is travelvideosonline.com . Same goes for the erroneus KFUPM faculty handbook which you seemed to be so keen on preserving it by uploading it on a freewebs account bearing my username (You thought it was funny?), and the only source of that blue mosque in Afghanistan is dead!According to WP Policy and guidelines Im confident a big chunk of this article can be deleted with no contest the'''s'''tick 12:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you don’t think Syed Mazhar Saeed Kazmi report is a WP:RS and that his assertion the at he great mosque of Kufa is more auspicious you better had check his CV: He was is a member of The Council of Islamic Ideology and taught as professor at Baha-ud-Din Zakaria University, Multan & the University of Karachi. He is on the Advisory Committee of the 1st International Conference on Advances in Space Technologies for Disaster Management and Rehabilitation, Islamabad, Pakistan, and the Deputy Director of WAPDA.
  • With regards to the KFUPM faculty handbook, I thought it was only natural that you would want to be associated with it as you went to such lengths to get the latest version uploaded on the same link.
  • It is the Place where Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) ascended into the Heavens ("Israa and Miraaj).
  • In the Holy Qur’an, in the first verse of Chapter 17 entitled 'The Children of Israel / Bani Israel. '
"Glory to Allah, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things." (17:1) Qur’an
  • Jerusalem was the first "Qibla" for ALL Muslims.
  • Prophet Mohammed said: “"There are only three mosques to which you should embark on a journey: the sacred mosque (Mekkah), this mosque of mine (Madinah), and the mosque of Al-Aqsa (Al-Quds)”.
  • Since Muslims believe in Prophets Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus, then they also recognise the sacredness and importance of Jerusalem in Islam.
  • The site of the Haram al Shareef (temple Mount) was a garbage dump, a dunghill for the people of Jerusalem. But Caliph Omar, upon learning this was the site of the Masjid of Al Quds-Jerusalem cleaned the place with his own hands and put his forehead in payer on that ground.
  • Muslims rule of this city was longest out of the three faiths (Islam, Christianity and Judaism), this proves that Muslims regarded the city with respect and sanctity.
  • Many Muslim scholars also migrated and settled in the city.
  • Add to that the Google search experiment it becomes clear that the only SANE option here is to delete this article.

As for the other supposedly third holiest sites, they can be mentioned (if referenced thoroughly) as part of Jerusalem’s religious significance or as a foot note in Al-Quds article since the other sites significance represent a largely non Muslim misconception. The points I listed above distinguish Jerusalem from the other suggested sites. Palestine48 06:38, 25 October 2006

Please restrict your ad hominem attacks on fellow editors of Wikipedia, please. This article is on a discussion on an issue. Wikipedia is not a place to promote specific ideals and stifle other views. Whether or not the Quran may call it the third holiest site, or no matter how much you wish to quote from it, it does not change the fact that there are views on the third holiest site of Islam, and hence this article will be pertinent. If you have a view that opposes these arguments, do put them on the article. This is what Wikipedia is for. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 07:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • In terms of the article clean-up, and I should stress that none of this even begins to support deletion in my view, I would encourage the article's editors to (1) write a clear and sourced introduction laying out the issue neutrally; (2) maybe request peer review to get some outside suggestions in how to improve the article; and (3) invite the members of Project Islam to chime in, particularly if they have access to more resources identifying the various contenders. Thanks, TheronJ 13:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso could just have well started an article on poodles with the first sentence saying that it is a type of dog but then diverting to Blair and framing the whole article around the relation Bush-Blair. AFD would then be warranted because the issue then has nothing to do with a POV debate on poodles. It's also no good saying that the article should be kept because an article on poodles has potential. A genuine article on poodles would be so different from the original that it would be best created by a good faith editor who wants to write about poodles. Also, by keeping the article Amoruso would have shifted the burden on writing a NPOV article on poodles to others. The only good reason to vote to keep would be if you are willing to put in the effort to transform the article to a genuine article about the subject yourself.
This issue reminds me of the recent AFD debate on Heim theory. There the source of the problem was different than in this case but there are some parallels. There you have POV pushers who want to promote a particular pseudoscientific topic. It then became too much of a burden for the editors of wiki project physics (who are mostly professional physicists) to keep the article in a "NO OR" and "No POV" form. They wanted to delete the article. I voted for keep because like some who voted for keep here, I am of the opinion that the pseudoscientific topic was notable. But then I was told by the others of the physics project that I should then become personally involved in editing that article. It is no good to just say "keep" because it can be made NPOV and then run away from the task of actually putting in the effort to improve the article. After the AFD vote I rewrote the article in an aceptable form.
So, in conclusion, my opinion is that the article should be deleted unless good faith editors with no agenda stand up right now who are willing to invest the time and effort to rewrite the article. The option of keeping and "let's see later how we improve it", is not adequate because Amoruso can create new articles written in bad faith faster than good faith editors can be found to step in every time he does so. Count Iblis 13:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately this editor also has his own agenda; you can see how he messaged no less than 9 (at my last count) pro-Arab members to vote against Amoruso’s latest article. He is against anything considered by him/her to be remotely conceived as anti-Arab. This article was in fact not "created for POV reasons relating to some other topic" but was originally part of the al aqsa mosque page but was considered to be “undue weight” and therefore a new article was created to conform with the following statement in Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight: views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. This article is devoted to the subject. Chesdovi 13:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. I'm for neutrality which perhaps to some pro-Israeli editors is seen as "against anything considered by him/her to be remotely conceived as anti-Arab.". You obviously did not see my edit on the Hamas page changing "attacks" to "military action and terrorism". I don't shy away from being neutral at all. I stand by my opinion that the article was created in bad faith. Such articles should be deleted unless others stand up and write a serious article on the topic.Count Iblis 14:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment:The above is a completely unnecessary personal attack accusing Amoruso of poor faith. It is counter to wikipedia policy WP:AGF. Various editors here have various opinions here on Wikipedia; that's a reality. According to the WP:NPOV policy, the truth is in the combination of all the well cited neutrally stated views, not in any particlar POV. Wikipedia is not a product of a totalitarian regime and is not propaganda. Therefore, everyone is going to disagree with some content here or other. AFDing articles that are not agreed with is really a form of censorship and violates WP:DEL. Elizmr 13:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC) NOTE: edit conflict; the user being discussed here is Count Iblis. Elizmr 13:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The evidence of poor faith is in the original version of the article, and it wasn't the first time. As explained above in detail this is not a mere POV issue. You can have a POV discussion on poodles but you should not create an article on poodles because of your POV on Blair. Count Iblis 14:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As Chesdovi demonstrated above, your allegations make no sense what-so-ever. Not only you've recruited many POV pushers including the banned Yas121 to influence articles violating the basis of wikipedia, now you have the audacity to attack other users. Sad. This original article was part of the Al Aqsa Mosque article, and it was moved to an own article as part of a proposed compromise - I suggest you see the discussion of the original article first before spreading any bull around again. Just look at this person sick recruitment attempt of POV to censor another legitimate article that was speedily kept. [3] Amoruso 10:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I asked some people to look at the policide article which was written for POV purposes. The fact that some of them may not be neutral in Israeli-Palestinian conflict exactly undermines your argument, because the concept of policide should have nothing to do with this conflict. To use the "poodle" analogy, it's like accusing someone for recruiting people with a pro-Blair bias to take a look at the poodle article. The article was only speedly kept because the POV aspects were being edited out by other editors and I wrote on the AFD page that I was satisfied with that. Count Iblis 12:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • When the original article was written is was not to put at rest my personal POV. The quote of mine you bring was commenting in a discussion with Almaqdisi on why I think the term has been used, not the raison d’etre why the article was written. Besides I have already answered thestick regarding this by saying that this is actually a fact; it’s human nature that when “third holiest” is applied to the temple mount complex, the absolute holiness of the place to another, older religion is disputed, dented, and sidelined. It suddenly isn’t an exclusive holy site for one religion but also has a great deal of significance for another one. Chesdovi 15:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"One should travel only for visiting three Masajid (Mosques): Masjid-ul-Haram (Mecca), Masjid-ul-Aqsa (Jerusalem), and this (my) Mosque (at Medina)." - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 31, Number 215

This hadith and the others arguments provided by Palestine48, and are much more reliable as evidence, as opposed to quotes from tourist brochures, travel websites, and other such dubious sources. - Mlaheji 14:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have yet to find where on Wikipedia it says that tourist brochures, travel websites are dubious sources, if anything they represent the views of the local population who were no doubt consulted of their views on the site. Chesdovi 15:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, but if there are muslims who still believe otherwise? Ariedartin JECJY Talk 14:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever action is taken, we should make the best decision based on the perspective of these people both for the people searching information and for wikipedia's reputation. A large fraction of the people who read [this version] will probably never use wikipedia for reliable information about the Mid East anytime soon. Count Iblis 15:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, this is not an article that is devoted to any sort of minorty view. All it does is personify websites regardless of their reliabilty and accuracy and gives the illusion that there is a group of people that believe so. Just look at some of the statements - "IslamicTouism goes further and bypasses Medina stating “Najaf, home to the shrine of Imam Ali, the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, is Muslim Shiites second holiest site after Mecca in Saudi Arabia”. [13]" . And again, the creator himself mentioned his personal agendas behind the article on this page itself. To summarise it's WikiLawyering, not in line with principles of WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV and is openly Bad Faith Also, THIS is the original version of his article --> [4] the'''s'''tick 15:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first paragraph is being attributed to my POV, but in fact this was an introduction to the subject I took from a website (later on to be added as a link) after I proceeded to do more research on the matter. Initially I had found that Hala Sultan Tekke was also considered as third holiest and thought the best way to including in the page was by providing the short introduction. Subsequent edits rephrased the introduction until it was considered NPOV. So what’s the problem? Chesdovi 15:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not attributing it to your POV, you quoted and for some time vehemently defended that statement from an external link that was already shown to be erroneous and biased until the article was submitted for review. And you still keep restoring those sections of which the only sources (dubious sources too) no longer exist. the'''s'''tick 16:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • "you quoted and for some time vehemently defended that statement from an external link that was already shown to be erroneous and biased" I don’t remember – In fact I have checked at it was I who removed the alleged POV! [5] Chesdovi 16:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the location of the Jewish Temple has also been proposed by some sources not to be in Jerusalem but other places. If you are okay with creating an article entitled "Holiest City in Judaism" based on those sources and commence with a list of every bigot, racist, or purely mistaken (or mistyped) source that has said that the Temple was actually in Saudi Arabia or Nablus or the Sinai, then you would have more of a reason to argue for the existence of an entire article dedicated to such nonsense. Ramallite (talk) 13:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's a useful comparison, Ramallite. If there are sources for it, I think an article on "Locations argued to be sources of the Jewish Temple" would be a reasonable topic. I imagine there would be some vigorous disputes over how to fairly address the balance of evidence, but those disputes wouldn't support deletion, IMHO. Thanks, TheronJ 16:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
BEAUTIFUL. Without realising it, you've just proven the whole point. Jerusalem is not holy to Jews because it has a holy site in it. It's holy to Judaism as a CITY . You'll have a hard time to argue with the thousands of its mentions in Jewish bible, history, folklore, poetry, prose, Mishnah and Talmud and it's importance to Jews. Therefore, your comment is irrelevant even if it was based on anything. Amoruso 14:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
UGLY. Fully realising it, you've just missed the whole point. The point is not the status of Jerusalem in Jewish folkore (or Islamic/Christian folklore, of which there is also plenty), the point, as you know, is the false pretenses and sloppy sources involved in creating an entire article about the importance of Jerusalem in Islam. We can argue about which houses in French Hill and which shopping malls in Telpiot have more songs sung about them by which group some other time, when I'm really really bored. Besides, what you wrote above is not accurate because you've confused 'holy' with 'historic capital'. Ramallite (talk) 14:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but I did not confuse it. For Jews, JERUSALEM IS HOLY. Yes, the city. For Muslims and Christians there are HOLY SITES IN JERUSALEM. You see the difference ? That's the difference, and that's why arguing over Jewish sites in Jerusalem like you suggested is irrelevant. Amoruso 16:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let us not only rely on theological viewpoints, let us also take into consideration the view of the “man in the Street”: The following is from a blog: For us Shias - Karbala, Najaf, Kazmain (all in Iraq) and Mashad in Iran all precede Jerusalem by many a mile.[6]Chesdovi 15:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: You might not realise it but the question of the place of Al Aqsa was highly disputed in Islamic circles at the time. As the sources show, it's still disputed by some today. Other muslims believe that other sites are more important. Even the pov proposer like Almaqdisi admits that there's a big difference between what sunni and shia think on the subject, and this is all relevant info to depict. It was already in the Al Aqsa Article but people thought it was given undue weight so it was moved in compromise. Obviously, this is all pertinent information. These other sites exist and are very imporant for Muslims and many regard them as the most important behind the undisputed Mecca (and Medina). Amoruso 14:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The "dispute" you speak of is because 'some Muslims did not feel comfortable with the notion that the Masjid Al-Aqsa is the very same "Temple of Bani Isra'il" (Bnei Yisrael) because that's (according to how I've always interpreted it) how it's described in the Qur'an. The verse that describes the 'Masjid al Aqsa' in the Qur'an is immediately followed by sentences mentioning 'Bani Isra'il' a number of times. In Islam, G-d has commanded the 'faithful' to fill in and take over from the followers of Moses and "the son of Mary" because they betrayed their covenant with Him. So He sends his final message to the world through the Qur'an. Jerusalem was the first Qibla in Islam, partly because of the Jewish influence on Mohammad in Medina. Things changed after he had a falling out with them. But there is no question in my mind that any dispute over the 'Masjid al-Aqsa' is marginal and irrelevant. Ramallite (talk) 14:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I've moved a discussion on whether an OIC statement supports Chesdovi's hypothesis to the talk page; everyone now seems to agree that the OIC statement does not provide support for the idea that there are alternate contenders for the status of "third holiest site in Islam". If anyone wants to see or continue the discussion, it's on the talk page [[Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Third holiest site in Islam#OIC acheivements in "creating consensus"|here]]. TheronJ 15:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have been following the discussion on this board for quite sometime, and I could not let this go on without intervention. This article deals with a Islamic site. This, then has to be decided based on Islamic references, i.e the Holy Quran, Prophet Mohammad's Hadith, and trusted time-proven text that rely solely on those two. Citing any text or references other than those is, by all means, an attempt to cause confusion and dispute over facts that are known for all muslims. The site of al masjid Alaqsa is 3rd in virtue, that is they believe that praying in these sites multiplies their hasanat (the good deed for the judgement day). Muslims do NOT pray for these sites. I strongly believe that since this site deals with Islamic understandings, it should be STRONGLY DELETED, due to its unprecedented inclusion of disputed material that does not rely on the Islamic references mentioned above.Aboosh 17:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Aboosh[reply]

Aboosh, I know I am assuming bad faith and that you are a newcomer here, and I apologize, but I find it strange that you would create an account and edit for the first time just to defend another user User:Almaqdisi and vote on this issue. I think you might be a sock puppet and have filed a report. Again, please excuse the incivility if this is not the case. Elizmr 23:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
He said he has "been following the discussion on this board for quite sometime" - Mlaheji 16:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Response to Puppet Suggestion Dear Elizmr, I appreciate the fact that you appologize before you made your comment. This is not the first time for me to make any editing. I have been editing anonymously for sometime on other articles, and I am Wikipedia editing literate. But this article has made me make the conscience discision to make myself an account for editing. I noticed that their have been many voices calling for an open discussion about a non-debatable issue. Best regards.Aboosh 01:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments for DELETE, Amoruso, you are very wrong if you think that Shiites dispute the importance of Jerusalem and its rank after Mecca and Medina. The narrations regarding Prophet Muhammad Hadith are the most studied of any other human being ever existed. The narrations are divded to more than 70 degree, and Muslims have rigorously studied these and settled whatever controversies or mis communication regarding some of the Narrations by weakening some and strengthening some. Hence, I noticed that Amuroso and Chesdovi are putting themselves at a level of what is called in Islam Faqih. The title of this article is about 3rd Holy cite in Islam. Okay, then it is Islamic sources that are verified here then. This article is instead talking about 3rd travel destination preference by some muslims. This does not qualify these preferences to compete with the title of 3rd Holy Sites in Islam. IT is VERY VERY wrong again to say that the Shiites dispute that. You better go and listen to nearby Hezbollah speeches, and your beloved Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for some info about this. In anycase, Amoruso believes that muslims disputed the location of al-Masjid al-Aqsa... Wrong again! The Prophet Muhammad's journey is well documented in his narrations and the notion that al-Masjid al-Aqsa being in Jerusalem or Bayt al-Maqdis, was well established and well understood and explicitly mentioned in the words of the Prophet and the majority of Muslims read these narrations at his time and understood it. You keep arguing and mentioing that Jerusalem was never mentioned in Quran etc... Well, the Quran is not a travel brouchure and was not to my understanding written by Human beings! The word Mecca itself only appeared once in the Quran and illuded at others. The word Moses and Jesus appeared at least 128, 22 repectively. The word Muhammad appeared only 4 times... Please let me know Chesdovi and Amuroso some Islamic interpretation, Fiqh, about this? It is clear from Amoruso's input at the [7] Dome of the Rock discussion that this is all politically driven dispute of Islamic authentic reports regarding the al-Aqsa mosque in general. Amoruso for some reason favors reports discredited by muslim scholars. Furthermore, Amoruso also disputes the definition of al-Aqsa mosque [8] or the term al-Masjid al-Aqsa which denotes that whole area surrounding the Rock and not only the congregational mosque per the correct Islamic terminology. Hence the issue is really larger than this article. Please note that Amoruso created this article and at the same time continues to remove the correct Islamic view and definitions regarding al-Aqsa congregational mosque and the Dome of the Rock mosque to prove his own wrong non Islamic theories part of which only appears in this article. This way, Wikipedia is getting turned to an unreliable source regarding Islamic sites and concepts. A great favor and preference should be given first to the better understood and well explained Islamic resources and cannot just be left open to travel brouchures and travel preferences by some muslims googled on the Web. Almaqdisi 19:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Short response for comment : Almaqdisi has repeatedly used this incivil with no basis language to maintain his narrow unreferenced and WP:POV and has went as far as uploading copyright images under false pretexts of public domain to try to maintain this POV. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] Amoruso 19:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso, your position has always been based on on tottaly rejected or marginal propoganda citations like this [16]. I am including the 1400 continuously used Islamic resources in my inputs regarding Islamic articles or Islamic terminologies. If you have problems with these sources, say it. Also, I will correct these copyright issues when I have more time and more experience using Wikipedia's image editors. Almaqdisi 20:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're clearly lying, as the history can show you've rejected dozens of WP:RS such as Oleg GrabarProfessor Emeritus of Islamic Art and Architecture at the Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, New Jersey, one of the most authoritive subjects on the issues [17] Amoruso 20:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso, watch out WP:NPA Almaqdisi 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I should watch out ? :-) lol. Amoruso 19:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - it's a fundamentally unsound topic to be discussing in any kind of "multi-cultural" Forum. The only way this article could be valuable as a reference is if it were written entirely by Muslims (and they were going to come to some kind of consensus, which I doubt). But it still wouldn't belong here, just as a discussion on "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" wouldn't belong in here. PalestineRemembered 19:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete. Islamic terms and authentic evidence must be used when Islamic issues are discussed. Alathiri 19:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Strong Delete:Amoruso, I do not see any uncivil behaviour that Almaqdisi has showed in his comments. He has explained to you the concept of Fiqh in Islam. His explanation is very accurate, and there is nothing uncivil about it. It is a very extensive well-founded science and you cannot dispute whatever you feel like. This is an issue that has to have an input from Islamic scholars ONLY. Also, Beit Or, Islam does not open a wide door for discussion and interpertations as many non-muslims wish for it to be. So, this discussion must be ended and for this page to be deleted.Aboosh 22:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious. Amoruso 23:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Dear Amoruso, I think whats dubious is your intentions of writing this article in the first place. You cannot continue to shift your argument from the core of the issue like what you showed in your response to Ramellite. Your neutrality towards the issue is questionable. The 2nd Resulotion of 2nd Islamic summet of the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) (see [[18]]) has clearly stated that the city of Jerusalem represent the Third Holiest City in Islam. There is no logical reason for debate beyond this point, other than the intent to confuse the average Wikipedia user with dubious conflecting information.Aboosh 00:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply Well, my comment in that instance had to do with whether just a link or a whole section on the contested topic in the Al Asqa article was still appropriate, after you forked the content into this article. My "support" towards any solution in any case is always contingent upon critical examination and open discussion, which we are attempting to have here. The rest of my statement in that post, including my final comment, I don't think a whole section on "third holiest sites" is at all necessary obviously extends to the content in this article. Whatever the outcome, I hope you agree the discussion has been worthwhile. Regards,--Amerique dialectics 21:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I mentioned above you seemed to object to it back then too, but it also seemed like you agreed to the compromise and I think a compromise should be kept. Anyway, I do believe your AFD is in good faith of course even though I disagree to it. Amoruso 22:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You are correct that this is "an attempt to use AfD to resolve a content dispute." I wholeheartedly wish this dispute could be resolved here. However, this is not fundamentally about me or my politics, or even about the politics of the other posters here. What this matter is about is whether this content is at all appropriate within the goals and policies of this encyclopedia. I've said before that any actual theological question here should be discussed strictly within theological scholarship, I would think this would be a standard policy for any encyclopedia article on any religious topic, and it frankly shocks me that I seem to be the only non-Islamic editor here that has at all voiced that opinion. Moreover, I am also shocked and suprised that editors with no possible interest in what is a completely specious article have lined up with "strong keeps," as if the subject actually meant something to them. The plethora of negative responses to this AfD from editors knowledgable about Islam clearly shows that this article is flamebait and cannot be redeemed through ordinary editing practices. I reiterate my strong opinion that the best option for Wikipedia and its readership would be to delete this article completely.--Amerique dialectics 06:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I find your comment as somewhat not understanding and grasping what wikipedia is about IMO and from my very modest experience. Wikipedia is about sharing sources by users on a variety of subjects. There are both muslim and muslim experts WP:RS that are relevant to the article and there are also other sources which can be used, and it's all good. There's no need to back down simply because it doesn't fit a certain narrow islamic thought as falsely one sided represented by a few users. wikipedia is open to everyone and for anyone to have research using WP:RS, WP:CITE, WP:V. It's exactly informative articles like this that make wikipedia such a convenient encyclopedia and censoring information rather than discussing, changing, improving it and so on stands in contrast to everything. Therefore, the result should have been speedy keep... Amoruso 07:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there is what Wikipedia is and there is what an encyclopedia is. That Wikipedia does not rely on "well-educated, well-informed content experts" does not mean that WP:Verify is so loose as to accommodate any and all references from people that might not be so well-informed, especially as presented on a topic guaranteed to piss off a huge portion of its likely readership, as this discussion has clearly shown. I still think that realistically, articles on sites sacred to distinct religions should be respectively separated, and that mixing together content on various sacred sites along with non-scholastic references in a single article can only offend religious believers, again as this discussion has clearly shown. Wikipedia is not about anyone's right to piss anyone off on the basis of race, creed or color, and if this site is to become an authoritative resource it must rely on scholastic references, especially on controversial topics, and present information with appropriate respect for the subject matter. I don't see how keeping this article can at all be justified after comments from Wikipedian Islamic experts.--Amerique dialectics 09:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You shouldn't be intidimated by a couple of people who will be offended by the truth... Wikipedia is not a place to be intimidated by a sect of Muslim fanatics. The very fact you consider this as possibly offensive is strange. Amoruso 19:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comments I agree with with Amerique . Moreover, it seems there is an attempt also to CENSOR OPINION like this recent one [20]! I think the purpose this article is badly written for POV purposes is really evident from this [21], and this [22] Almaqdisi 07:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So you're in favour of using sock puppets and in favour of censoring information ? I didn't understand . Amoruso 19:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Beit Or 09:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Almaqdisi has said that “IT is VERY VERY wrong again to say that the Shiites dispute [that Jerusalem is 3rd holiest]" and Aboosh has stated: “This is an issue that has to have an input from Islamic scholars ONLY”. I repeat: Let us not only rely on theological viewpoints, let us also take into consideration the view of the “man in the Street”: The following is from a blog: For us Shias - Karbala, Najaf, Kazmain (all in Iraq) and Mashad in Iran all precede Jerusalem by many a mile.[23]. Of course this is a not a RS and I have no way of proving the writer is actually a shia muslim, nevertheless, assuming it is an honest statement, it does go someway in disproving what Almaqdisi is trying to lead us to believe. Chesdovi 12:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Almaqdisi I am not going to pretend I am a scholar of the stature of Yusuf al-Qaradawi but all I can say is that since Jerusalem is not mentioned (Is bayt-ol-maqqudas mentioned?) it gives us no conclusive evidence that Jerusalem was intended. See Location of the “farthest mosque” for elaboration. If Jerusalem would have been mentioned only once, like Mecca, there would be no basis at all for most of the arguments on this page and others. Just that one mention would have dispelled any notion that Jerusalem was not the intended place. Unfortunately it was not, hence the ongoing debate. You are correct in saying that it is not necessarily the mere mention of a place that gives it it's importance: there are tens of name places in the Bible, most of them insignificant to Judaism. However, the fact the masjid al aqsa was not identified in the scripture as being in Jerusalem is just a strong argument whether Jerusalem was the place intended or not. Chesdovi 12:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • But unlike yours, his "POV" is backed by over a billion Muslims, is verifiable by authentic, historical texts, established since the very beginning of islam, readily acknowledged today, mentioned in several Islamic texts that unfortunately arent there on the internet but readily available in any bookstore selling books by Islamic scholars, and a whole lot more. Unlike your theory mostly surviving on your painstaking search for any page on the internet and which IMHO is as credible are those rumours and chain emails circulating on the internet like "Secret corporations headed by the Jews were behind 9/11", with all the alleged "evidence" they provide. - Mlaheji 17:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It doesnt have it's own page, so why not move this article to the "Israeli denial of palestinian history" section of the Israeli-Palestinian_history_denial page? - Mlaheji 18:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't get me wrong -- it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate that the vast majority of authorities consider Al-Aqsa to be the third holiest site, but that some groups of Muslims, such as the Cypriots, consider other sites to be the "third holiest." In fact, assuming that that's true (and I due), WP:NPOV requires that "due weight" be given to each opinion. However, "undue weight" isn't a good ground for deletion, IMHO, just for a ((sofixit)). Thanks, TheronJ 19:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hold on, are you saying that Al Aqsa holiness is a Palestinian issue ? :-0 Now I've heard everything... It would make very little sense what you just proposed. Although this didn't have its own page either - it was in the Al Aqsa Mosque article and moved to its own page after the same people who now wants it deleted wanted it to move. See previous discussion. It can be moved back, just decide. Amoruso 20:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Going by the the methodology of "find any page of any title which remotely mentions what I want to prove", in ~45 minutes, I have compiled the following sources supporting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam :
Time Magazine [24] Time Magazine[25] Al Jazeerah[26] Al Jazeerah[27] Gulf Times [28] The Hindu [29]Middle East times [30]
Moment Magazine [31] BBC [32] BBC [33] FOX News [34] Times of Oman [35] IslamOnline [36] Yahoo News [37] SpiritHit News [38]
CNS News [39] CBC Canada [40] IslamicNews.org [41] ABC News [42] Lycos News[43] Presence TV [44]
Ma'an News agency [45] Sudanese Times [46] Middle East Times [47] Jerusalem Times [48] CBS4Boston [49] IOL [50] LA Times [51] Associated Press[52] MSNBC [53]
Federal News Radio [54] Global Security [55] International Herald Tribune [56] WorldNet Daily[http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34776] Boston Globe [57] News24 [58]
Realtime News :[59] CBS 5 [60] The Guardian UK [61]
Public Broadcasting Service [62] Public Broadcasting Service [63] MSNBC [64] Townhall [65]
Some research journals :
[66] [67] [68] - Mlaheji 19:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Amuroso and Chesdovi, Please listen. Jerusalem was mentioned by the Prophet when he embarked his night Journey. There are several authentic narrations to this regard one of which is this found at al-Aqsa mosque page itself! Here is is again:

The hadith narrator Imam Muslim reports that the Prophet's companion Anas ibn Malik mentions that the Prophet said:

Comments: If you do not want to believe this Hadith of the Prophet, it is a problem because Islamic terminolgies we are discussing here started there and not in the Torah or the Bible. There is two more Hadiths regarding the night Journey where the term Bayt al-Maqdis is used too. I do not see why you do not want to listen to these narrations and instead favor other sources to discuss a purley Islamic term. It seems to me that you are now discussin if the Furthest Mosque was in Jerusalem at all apart from it being the third virtous mosque in Islam. Finally, Jerusalem and it surrounding is what was described in Quran as "al-Ard Al-Mubarakeh" meaning the blessed land, or the land God has bless to all nations. Almaqdisi 20:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Amoruso, the fact that you keep saying that The Dome of the Rock was built for Jews [69] and that al-Aqsa Mosque was ordered to be managed by Jews [70] should really tell a lot about the sources you have been reading to edit and comment on this article. If you use the title Islam in the topic, you should use and give priority wieght to Islamic resources. Else, the article should be changed to travel preferences by some muslims. Or the word Third should be removed from the title cause your sources are not discussing what they believe about one and two, or just delete the article as it has no basis whatsoever in Islam. Chesdovi, with my due respects to your entries, I believe you need to have your self more familiar with Muslims resources. Finally, Sock pupperty accusations [71] by Amuroso, I consider as an attempt to block my entries here and to censor my voice! Almaqdisi 21:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Speaking for myself, to me the matter is about what consitutes reliable sources on what is purportedly a theological issue that would be most appropriately discussed within authoritative scholastic literature. We all should know that it would be impossible and entirely against Wikipedia policy to screen editors on self-disclosed cultural or political affiliations to any or all articles. However, it does seem to me that the practical matter of "what constitutes reliable sources" is being obscured by the political matters you've just described, which however this article seems entirely designed to evoke.--Amerique dialectics 23:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm not talking about who should EDIT here, I'm also talking about the SOURCES that editors can cite here. What I'm saying Wikipedia policy on citations for a Wikipedia article on Islam does not and should not equal Islamic policy on citations for a Wikipedia article on Islam. To choose a maybe extreme example, including Salman Rushdie's pov on the satanic verses would be ok by Wikipedia policy but not by Islamic policy. Elizmr 00:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would agree with that, provided the sources are authoritative, that is, the peer-reviewed literature in this area. What do you think about the idea of forking content that is notable and well-referenced into articles on particular sites, as opposed to maintaining this article in it's current form?--Amerique dialectics 00:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • We might use the word "peer-reviewed" differently. I usually think of it as a situation where an editor sends a paper out to various experts in the field for review before deciding on publication. This is not necessary for a Wikipedia source, see WP:V. It really seems to me like the sources cited here are in compliance with that guideline. Elizmr 00:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Comments to Elizmr: WikiPedia is not an Islamic Project I agree. But it is an Encyclopedia that should be informative. The title of this article has problems because of two things. First, it has the word "Third" and the word "Islam" in it. This article would be reasonable if it discusses holy site regarded by muslims in general. In that case, there is a space for this article. However, the people behind this article insist on using the word "Third" which comes from a narration from the Prophet Muhammad. If the word third stays there, then the authors of the article are obligated to stick to the Islamic resources discussing the word third. The problem is right here. This article if you notice is not written to discuss the first or the second site in Islam. It is only written to argue about the Third site! The numbers First, Second and Third are ranks of how virteous is a mosque. This is the only reason these are ranked in Islam and have a designated number. The article would be fine if the authors do not focus on the rankings because they are then entitled to come up with a narration or a resource which explicitly mentions that this sect of muslims reject the narration of the Prophet Muhammad regarding the Bayt al-Maqdis and explicitly demonstrate the argument of that particular sect on what is the first, second, and third site for them. The resources should include what sect is this, and whether there is a consensus in that sect regarding this site, and so for. This article is therefore failing to do so. Some users here say there are articles about the Hoax of Jews and 9/11. That is okay, but still the title say it is a Hoax. Unfortunately, this article we have here give no useful information because it gives all resources equal weight, and is written by people whom main objective is to Challenge and dispute a well established fact in Islam. They are therefore entitled to give their evidence about that from the Islamic resources itself. They need not of course to be muslims, but their evidence should come from Islamic resources and not from anything else. The reason again being in the fact that it has the in the title the word "Islam", and that it uses the word "Third" coming from an authentic narration. Almaqdisi 00:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Almaqdisi: So, it sounds like you are saying that the article could be fixed if 1) divergent Muslim views were discussed more explicitly with what they reject, etc 2) The idea of ranking of sites in Islam and what it means was discussed more explicitly 3) and the sources and how relevant they are felt to by Muslims from different sects were discussed more explicitly in the article and 4) the article touched on the first and second sites more than it does and 5) the title did not include the word "Third" and the word "Islam". Elizmr 00:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Very fact Almaqdisi tries to add the word "the Prophet" after every mention shows why this request of deletion is so un-encyclopedic. It's also perplexing how this article is now accused of censorship? strange. Describing the importance of other muslim sites like in this article , as well as describing the history connected with the Jews that you mentioned - that's fact, there's nothing wrong with doing that. Amoruso 00:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso, the fact that you keep saying that The Dome of the Rock was built for Jews [72] and that al-Aqsa Mosque was ordered to be managed by Jews [73] should really tell what you think and why you created a false article like this. You are creating a Hoax, and the word Hoax should be added to this title if it is to stay! Almaqdisi 00:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're just copy-pasting your irrelevant info. The fact Jews also were connected to the Dome is widely known, and the original edit there wasn't mine at all. I've brought sources explaining Jewish connection to the original buildings in that other article. You can continue with your strange attacks and akward attempt at grand worldwide conspiracy - also I did not create the original info of this article , this was already discussed. In fact, I have very little to do with the article, perhaps nothing at all, don't remember writing one bit of it , except moving it from al aqsa mosque article by requests from those that now want it deleted. Amoruso 00:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso, what about this one [74]? Stop this nonsense of your prpoganda wrong info! Almaqdisi 00:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest archiving these irrelevant strange comments by Almaqdisi. Also, cease your personal attacks. Amoruso 00:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have nothing against you personally, but I have allergy to non factual edits! As long as you stay factual and authentic, nothing will be wrong with your edits. But loosing rigor and therefore credibility in citing info is very very non academic. Almaqdisi 00:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: that title is much larger in scope than this one is, but the point is well taken. Is it possible to come up with a less polemical sounding title to cover this article that would make people happier here? Elizmr 00:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's a proposal even. This is still a delete proposal and all those who voted keep found merit in the article. There's no compromise here.Amoruso 01:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as an experiment I already tried it here[[75]]. I think saving some good content in different articles and losing the miscellaneous material would be a valid compromise in the interest of all concerned with the integrity of this encylopedia. Also, this saves the situation from remaining an "all or nothing" proposition for all parties involved.--Amerique dialectics 01:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I repeat, there's no compromise in it. A compromise like discussed above will be to rename the article possibly to "Islam holiest sites" and have the discussion on the third site there for example. There's no compromise possible to delete this - most of the users object to deleting this, there's no consencus obviously, and therefore article stays. You can propose possible name changes to this article in the talk page of the article. The information could have already appeared in the differnet articles like it did on the Al Aqsa mosque , and it's not related to the issue of keep or delete of this article. I find it very strange you write that this is a compromise of some sort, it's not even something new. Amoruso 01:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we wouldn't be strictly "deleting" if we saved some content that could be said to be relevant to some other articles... Problem is, I don't see any authoritative resources used for any of the material in question, other than the Boyle, Kevin & Sheen, Julie reference, so on second thought I can't support my own proposal that the material should be saved. I would withdraw it, but I'll leave it to others to decide if a compromise on these terms is potentially feasable. It could be feasable, provided better references could be found for these assertions for the sites in other articles, but right now I don't see what the use would be of forking over the bulk of this badly referenced content.--Amerique dialectics 02:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly support Amerique's Proposal for two main reasons:

This all does not make sense. It is obvious that this subject is a new creation and is not a mature subject worthy of attention as of yet, and this article is creating a DISPUTE and not REPORTING A DISPUTE! Therefore, my opionin continues to be a STRONG DELETE and a SPREAD OUT to have more input from other users. This is for the sake of Wikipedia and its reputation as an informative resource and nothing else. Almaqdisi 04:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is actually a strong argument why this article should be deleted :). Wiki articles should be free of propaganda. "The media" will also convince you that global warming is real, so that's reflected in the global warming article. The fact that it is disputed by many isn't relevant as long as these persons don't know that they are talking about and only make their claims for propaganda reasons. Count Iblis 18:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
so you feel this the proper place to try to convince more people to help with your extreme WP:POV and copyright violations and distruptions ? You have violated so many wikipedia conventions by now that it's not even funny. I note to everyone you already violated copyright on articles [82], on images [83] [84] [85] and used sock puppets [86]. You of course also used personal attacks, and now this. What next ? Amoruso 21:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amoruso Before you attack Almaqdisi and accuse him of having an extreme POV and discredit his knowledge on the subject to support this article, Tave a look at Chesdovi's little episode on the Talk page [87]. His POV is so neutral (*cough*) that he seems to see things that aren't there, and he's the one who started all of this. Why dont you have anything to say about that? I would love to read it.This article openly violates WP:V, WP:NPOV, is not a Soapbox,is not a directory, WP:RS.thestick 23:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could people take a look at the new lead I wrote and see if this makes things better. I might have made mistakes becasue I am not a Muslim, but I tried to address the concerns that have been addressed regarding scriptural references by Almaqdisi and others. What I did in the lead was to distinguish the scriptural basis for the 3rd holiest from other considerations that are more important for the other sites. Does this work/help? Elizmr 03:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken a look, and it seems well-intentioned and well-written, but it is beyond me to evaluate the content issue in this case. All I have been doing is applying my understanding of WP policy to the references used to support these assertions, as that is where this article seems weakest and how it seems most likely to spread misunderstanding and confusion both as to the subject and as to the goals of this encyclopedia. I have nothing against what you've done, but my own concerns were mainly about the references as opposed to the language per se.--Amerique dialectics 09:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Second vote ruled out. Thank you for pointing it out. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 13:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize about 2nd vote! Aboosh 14:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

* Keep Al-Aqsa Mosque is third holest site of Muslims. It has room for improvement but still enough reason to keep it. --- ابراهيم 16:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good point... the ones that want to delete it seem to have only the argument that Al Aqsa is the third. That's an argument to KEEP the article with what Elizmr did. Amoruso 18:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well Tewfik, have a look yourself at the Quality of the sources. Almaqdisi 02:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I examined the sources before forming an opinion on the matter. I apologise if the rhetorical statement was lost on others, but I was highlighting what I saw as the absurdity in comparing a typo in a single news dispatch with >35 sources explicitly documenting this idea. Cheers, TewfikTalk 06:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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