The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Keep. There is widespread agreement that this is a WP:TRAINWRECK. There is also some agreement among commenters that it might be best if nom takes a break from TfD to gain valuable experience elsewhere. House Blaster^talk 17:48, 6 September 2023 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

Template:Largest cities of Afghanistan (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Argentina (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Australia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Azerbaijan (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Bangladesh (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Bolivia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest urban agglomerations in Brazil (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Bulgaria (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Cambodia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Cameroon (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest metropolitan areas of Canada (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Chile (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Most populous cities in the People's Republic of China (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Croatia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Cyprus (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of the Czech Republic (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Denmark (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities or towns of Ethiopia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Germany (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest urban agglomerations in Germany (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Greece (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest urban agglomerations in India (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Indonesia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Iran (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Iraq (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Israel (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Italy (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Ivory Coast (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Japan (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Liberia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Libya (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Madagascar (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Malawi (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Malaysia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest localities of the Maldives (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Mali (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Mauritania (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest metropolitan areas of Mexico (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Moldova (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Nepal (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of the Netherlands (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of New Zealand (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of North Korea (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Norway (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of the Philippines (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Romania (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Russia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest planning areas of Singapore (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Somalia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of South Africa (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of South Korea (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Sudan (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Sweden (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Switzerland (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Syria (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Trinidad and Tobago (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Tunisia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Turkey (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest Urban Areas of the United Kingdom (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest metropolitan areas of the United States (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Vietnam (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Largest cities of Zambia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

problems:

The templates display content, which is usually best optimised to suit the article in which it is displayed, which is not usually possible with a template.
Whether such templates are appropriate in a GA or FA class article is irrelevant.
In a similar debate: templates in this series were deleted if they were only used once but those that were added to geography and demography articles were not. Could the reason they were deleted be to keep the source code of the articles reasonably clean and simple? Several tables and graphs are transcluded into COVID articles and therefore, this is a precedent which has been used in high visibility pages and some, at least, are quite complicated and used several times. Keeping such templates for this reason doesn't impact the problems with the templates though.
The content of the tables should be referenced in the same way as any other data set. It appears that some of the templates have references and display the reference in the destination page but others do not. The content only displays a small set of communities/cities. Why not just link to the "list of cities ..." articles instead so that all the communities/cities are displayed with the most accurate references and data? Why are we making decisions on how many cities/communities to include on the country page instead of the "list of cities ..." articles?
The current design only allows for the population and the subdivision in which the city is located. Depending on the laws of the country, a city can be very sparsely populated and be as large as a small country. For example, the Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo is a very large area with many communities governed by one government. The other case is where a city is densely populated and subdivisions have its own government such as the Boroughs of New York City. It is very misleading to capture and compare cities across a country when definitions differ across subdivisions. Subdivisions and the United Nations have their own definitions too. It has been stated that these templates are useful but that is simply a matter of opinion.
The templates are very limiting in what they can display with regard to city metrics. Some example metrics are area, GDP, GNP, and Purchasing power parity. The templates aren't expandable to include all the metrics that are relevant nor does it make any sense to include a large number of metrics. Even an additional metric of area would seem pretty basic and following on that, definitely, population density. Demographics is very detailed and the templates for the cities are not suitable in those articles nor for the geography articles. Geographics and geography is about human geography. Cities include infrastructure and politics. These templates are not suitable for demography because there are too many metrics to include. Specifically: any population related data and/or information including population, sex, age, religion, race, ethnicity, etc. should be split off to demographics articles, such as demographics of Maldives, demographics of China, etc.. Any city related data and/or information should be split off to "list of cities in ..." articles such as List of cities in China and List of cities and towns in Bulgaria. If any ==Largest cities== sections should remain, they should be renamed to ==Urbanization==. A link to the "list of cities in ..." article can be left.

solutions that won't work:

It has also been suggested that other transclusion options such as ((Excerpt)) and ((Section)) which can take an excerpt or section from one article and display it in another be used however there needs to be consistency between the source articles for this to work since the templates are part of a set or series.
- Reasons they won't work:
  - Only a limited set of metrics can be displayed.
  - The "list of city" articles have to be consistent in order for ((section)) and/or ((excerpt)) to make useful and consistent content. Transclusion should be used where the same content should be used in several places. An example is the lead for a group of sub-glossaries where the content is too much for a single page but the topic is identical. Transclusion is a tool and like any other tool there are times when it works well and times where it should not be used and times where it is good enough until something better comes up. Sometimes it is not obvious which applies. In the case of these templates, it isn't good enough. Something to consider is if it is WP:undue weight on population and subdivisions.

solutions:

Main and see also hatnote links imply a summary style section in the article from which the main and see also articles are to be linked. This is often the same sort of information that would be in the lead of the main article. When there is also a see also article it can become more complicated. However, countries that have no cities are generally island countries or microstates such as andorra, san marino, and monaco. If a country does not have a list article that discusses cities, it may be created or if it already exists, the content on that list article can be modified or expanded. That fact that this series of templates is problematic and no solution can be devised to solve the problem is a problem with the series of templates and not a problem with other articles. In the case of Bulgaria, List of cities and towns in Bulgaria is linked as "Sofia is the nation's capital and largest city; other major cities are Plovdiv, Varna and Burgas." as the last sentence in the first paragraph of the article. There isn't yet any guidance on how, which, or if city lists should be linked however main and see also are suggestions.

some points to note:

countries are not cities
cities are in countries
countries distribute federal funding as tax to cities
cities are taxed by countries Iterresise (talk) 14:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment previous t.f.d.s
Keep as per many times before...used in many FA articles for decades with no problems like Canada#Demographics or Japan#Demographics. Already been here as per Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 July 1#Template:Largest cities of Japan. Chalk this up to new editor (585 edits) not aware of common usage.Moxy- 19:39, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just added India and another template related to Germany. Maybe you can reassess. Iterresise (talk) 20:12, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just so your aware notified WP:FAOWN editors of our FA articles. Moxy- 21:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is this supposed to intimidate me? Iterresise (talk) 22:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:APPNOTE "Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article. Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic. Moxy- 22:35, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The nominator appears to be arguing that these templates don't display every city or every metric someone may wish to know about these cities... but that's not what they're for. They accomplish what they're meant to do, which is provide a list of largest cities and their populations; that information can be supplemented or not as needed for the articles in which the templates appear. No valid rationale for deletion has been provided. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:16, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Invalid argument: Her argument is based on her opinion that the current kind and number of metrics is optimal. Therefore, her argument can be categorized as WP:ILIKEIT. Iterresise (talk) 09:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Her argument is not redundant, it is perfectly valid, and it does not fall under WP:ILIKEIT... no offense but you have a severe misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy and guidelines. The purpose of the templates are to list the largest cities or metropolitian areas in a given country, not every single statistic or metric relating to them, and they have existed for a long time. Also, I've gone and checked every single previous TFD you linked; the vast majority of them were either kept, withdrawn, or had their history merged with another template due to duplication, with only two deleted. They are clearly useful and do not fail any current Wikipedia standard or policy. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 10:50, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm seeing a few fallacies here: WP:CCC and WP:ITSUSEFUL. Iterresise (talk) 12:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Except consensus isn't changing here, and nobody is applying WP:ITSUSEFUL to anything. You're the only one who is disagreeing with the templates' existence. Please stop making up false policy violations. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 01:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop lying. Iterresise (talk) 07:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iterresise I'm not lying. You're making up false MOS policies to try and make this redundant TFD request have any relevancy. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 14:11, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Evelyn Harthbrooke How annoying and childish: The following 3 templates are not countries yet they are deleted. This isn't a vote.
Template:Largest cities of Gandaki Province

Template:Largest cities of Catalonia

Template:Largest cities of Castile and León Iterresise (talk) 17:59, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They were deleted because they didn't hold enough relevancy. And yes, yes it is a vote. Stop BLUDGEONing everyone who replies to you. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 19:00, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep per common usage and the fact that templates are used to condense information down and separate it from the rest of the articles in question. These templates serve their purpose and they serve them well. They are intended to list the largest cities and metropolitian areas by population, and to be quite frank this is a redundant and unnecessary TfD request. These templates are useful, and deleting these will remove useful information from dozens of articles. Also, what the hell do any of your comments in your "some points to note" have to do with the templates? Obviously cities are not countries and cities are in countries, but these templates literally list the largest metropolitian areas and cities in a given country. I can tell that this request is already not going to succeed; this TFD request is honestly astoundingly ridiculous. Also I find it shocking how someone, despite all the previous TFDs resulting in keep, withdrawal, or histmerge results, deciding to file yet another TFD despite consensus having been reached lots of times to keep these kinds of templates. :/ - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 10:44, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if you read anything I nominated. Unfortunate and a shame. Iterresise (talk) 12:14, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep - this is, quite frankly, a WP:TRAINWRECK based on misinterpretation of policy, no need to run the full 7 days. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 11:01, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And how would you propose to bundle the templates? Iterresise (talk) 12:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Easy, I propose that these perfectly useful templates not be deleted. Also, quit WP:BLUDGEONing the discussion participants. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 14:19, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are being ridiculous. Iterresise (talk) 06:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per User:Nikkimaria, and per the nom's statement The templates aren't expandable to include all the metrics that are relevant nor does it make any sense to include a large number of metrics. This seems to be arguing that since the templates are unable to do something they shouldn't do anyway, they're somehow problematic. The "problems" listed seem to be matters of personal preference. Why are we making decisions on how many cities/communities to include on the country page instead of the 'list of cities ...' articles? Because encyclopaedists summarise. Folly Mox (talk) 08:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Another ridiculous keep vote. Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2021_November_28#Largest_cities_of is very revealing here. Some suggestions were to substitute and then delete. Deletion is preferred because substituting only takes the table out of template space and starts the cycle of a table with out a template within this series/set-of-templates. "This series of templates has slowly been created and added to various country articles as they are seen on one page and so created just so the other country page also has one" stated User:Chipmunkdavis in Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 November 28#Largest cities of. "because encyclopaedists summarise" has nothing to do with this. There isn't any guidance [policy/guideline] which forbids these tables but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be created such as Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Polities and within it writing "Do not add tables which show a truncated set of cities and do not create templates with these sorts of tables.". Iterresise (talk) 07:27, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Largest cities of templates were related to Template:World topic a nav aid and is not the same thing. Moxy- 12:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stop being ridiculous Iterresise (talk) 18:02, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One is a nav aid the other displays a data set. Moxy- 18:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Iterresise, your MOS link is red, and the only place the string "truncated set of cities" appears anywhere on the project is in your comment just above. Can you please link the actual MOS guidance you're remembering, so people can see whether it might apply to this series of templates? Folly Mox (talk) 17:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Read the comment I replied to moxy. Iterresise (talk) 18:03, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
None of your replies to User:Moxy in this conversation contains a valid MOS link. Folly Mox (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I understand the nomination can be confusing but let me highlight what I wrote: "It is very misleading to capture and compare cities across a country when definitions differ across subdivisions. Subdivisions and the United Nations have their own definitions too." Iterresise (talk) 18:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These are based on census data per country. Moxy- 18:34, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Aslo be aware that things of this nature may get you blocked. pls review WP:AVOIDYOU. Moxy- 18:38, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Behaviour at this TfD has been raised as a concern here:
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents #user:Iterresise

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 20:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - too many templates in the TfD bundle. Too much bludgeoning. Deleting so many would disrupt too many articles.

I suggest the nominator take a break from TfDs for now. Their passion, determination and attention to detail can be more useful in some other, less contentious cleanup areas. Less frustrating for the nominator in particular.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 21:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – Adding to the reasons already given, keeping template and table data in separate files—especially when the contents are well defined and not subject to the sort of discussion that, say, an infobox is—seems a valid way of preventing disruption by protecting their markup from clumsy, or even vandalistic, editing on the main page, even if the data apply to only one article. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]