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Okay. I've compiled a new proto-note using only the referenced statements....
On the sandbox page I have pointed out some corrections to be made. Soidi (talk) 09:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
(outdent:) Ufff. There's a problem of ambiguous language here. The note should be clear, which is why it should also be simple. "Exclusively" could mean either a) that this is the only name the Church uses; or b) that the Church is the only body that uses this name. However, it is obvious even from Nancy's own proposed note (see below) that neither is the case. Frankly, the opening pages of McBrien's The Church (a source championed by Nancy) treats this rather well, and rather simply: he points out both that the church claimed the title of "Catholic" in the twelfth century, and that since that time other churches have also claimed the same title, hence the possibility for confusion as the name no longer refers exclusively to the (Roman) Catholic Church. The note should explain this (and other difficulties) clearly and simply, without adding still further ambiguity. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
After my latest trip to the library, I have noticed that modern scholarship are all in agreement on some very basic points concerning the name of the Church. I propose a note based on these common statements found in these sources and just keep the note short instead of going into all the details:
I'm sorry, but Nancy's "new" proposed note is virtually no significant improvement on the current one and is still highly flawed, prejudiced, objectionable and unacceptable. I agree with Sunray's sensible suggestion as the only practical way forward on this issue. Afterwriting (talk) 04:55, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, for what it's worth... I was somewhat intrigued by Nancy's citation of the OED. It's not of course a secondary source, but a tertiary one. Still, I thought I'd have a look at what it says... And it seems as though Nancy has only consulted the abridged or shorter OED. Here are excerpts from the full OED definition of "Catholic":
II. In ecclesiastical use. The earlier history of this lies outside English, and may be found in such works as Smith's Dict. Christian Antiq. or in Lightfoot's Ignatius I. 398-400, 605-607; II. 310-312. {Hasper} {kappa}{alpha}{theta}{omicron}{lambda}{iota}{kappa}{ghgrave} {elenis}{kappa}{kappa}{lambda}{eta}{sigma}{giacu}{alpha} ‘the catholic church’ or ‘church universal’, was first applied to the whole body of believers as distinguished from an individual congregation or ‘particular body of Christians’. But to the primary idea of extension ‘the ideas of doctrine and unity’ were super-added; and so the term came to connote the Church first as orthodox, in opposition to heretics, next as one historically, in opposition to schismatics. Out of this widest qualitative sense arose a variety of subordinate senses; it was applied to the faith the Church held, to particular communities or even individual members belonging to it, and especially in the East, to cathedrals as distinguished from parish churches, then later to parish churches as opposed to oratories or monastic chapels. After the separation of East and West ‘Catholic’ was assumed as its descriptive epithet by the Western or Latin Church, as ‘Orthodox’ was by the Eastern or Greek. At the Reformation the term ‘Catholic’ was claimed as its exclusive right by the body remaining under the Roman obedience, in opposition to the ‘Protestant’ or ‘Reformed’ National Churches. These, however, also retained the term, giving it, for the most part, a wider and more ideal or absolute sense, as the attribute of no single community, but only of the whole communion of the saved and saintly in all churches and ages. In England, it was claimed that the Church, even as Reformed, was the national branch of the ‘Catholic Church’ in its proper historical sense. As a consequence, in order to distinguish the unreformed Latin Church, its chosen epithet of ‘Catholic’ was further qualified by ‘Roman’; but see sense 7. On this analogy ANGLO-CATHOLIC has been used by some, since about 1835, of the Anglican Church.
And then, from sense 7:
As applied (since the Reformation) to the Church of Rome (Ecclesia apostolica catholica Romana) = ROMAN CATHOLIC, q.v. (Opposed to Protestant, Reformed, Evangelical, Lutheran, Calvinistic, etc.) ROMAN CATHOLIC is the designation known to English law; but ‘Catholic’ is that in ordinary use on the continent of Europe, especially in the Latin countries; hence historians frequently contrast ‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’, especially in reference to the continent; and, in familiar non-controversial use, ‘Catholic’ is often said instead of Roman Catholic.
It's definition of "Roman Catholic" is as follows:
B. adj. Of or belonging to the Church of Rome; = CATHOLIC a. 7.
Now, as I've noted, there are problems using the OED as a source. It is, after all, simply a record of usage. But if the OED is going to be invoked, then let's get it right.
Oh, and for what's it's worth here is the full set of definitions for "Catholic" (albeit without the quotations):
[a. F. catholique (13th c. in Littré) ad. late L. catholic-us, a. Gr. {kappa}{alpha}{theta}{omicron}{lambda}{iota}{kappa}{goacu}{fsigma} general, universal, f. {kappa}{alpha}{theta}{goacu}{lambda}{omicron}{upsilon} (i.e. {kappa}{alpha}{theta}' {oasperacu}{lambda}{omicron}{upsilon}) on the whole, in general, as a whole, generally, universally, f. {kappa}{alpha}{tau}{gaacu} concerning, in respect of, according to + {oasperacu}{lambda}{omicron}{fsigma} whole. (If immed. derived from L. or Gr., the Eng. word would, according to the regular analogy of words in -IC, have been accented ca{sm}tholic).]
A. adj.
I. In non-ecclesiastical use.
1. gen. Universal.
{dag}2. In specific uses: a. Universally prevalent: said e.g. of substances, actions, laws, principles, customs, conditions, etc. Obs.
{dag}b. Universally applicable or efficient; spec. of medicines, remedies. Obs.
{dag}c. More loosely: Common, prevalent. Obs.
{dag}d. Entire, without exception. Obs.
3. In current use: a. Of universal human interest or use; touching the needs, interests, or sympathies of all men.
b. Having sympathies with, or embracing, all: said of men, their feelings, tastes, etc.; also fig. of things. (Closely connected with 8.)
4. Catholic Epistle: a name originally given to the ‘general’ epistles of James, Peter, and Jude, and the first of John, as not being addressed to particular churches or persons. The second and third epistles of John are now conventionally included among the number.
It is not certain that this was the original sense of {elenis}{pi}{iota}{sigma}{tau}{omicron}{lambda}{ghgrave} {kappa}{alpha}{theta}{omicron}{lambda}{iota}{kappa}{ghgrave}, since some early writers appear to use it in the sense ‘genuine and accepted’ (see CANONICAL): but the attribute has been understood in the sense ‘encyclical’ or ‘general’ since the 10th or 11th c.
II. In ecclesiastical use.
The earlier history of this lies outside English, and may be found in such works as Smith's Dict. Christian Antiq. or in Lightfoot's Ignatius I. 398-400, 605-607; II. 310-312. {Hasper} {kappa}{alpha}{theta}{omicron}{lambda}{iota}{kappa}{ghgrave} {elenis}{kappa}{kappa}{lambda}{eta}{sigma}{giacu}{alpha} ‘the catholic church’ or ‘church universal’, was first applied to the whole body of believers as distinguished from an individual congregation or ‘particular body of Christians’. But to the primary idea of extension ‘the ideas of doctrine and unity’ were super-added; and so the term came to connote the Church first as orthodox, in opposition to heretics, next as one historically, in opposition to schismatics. Out of this widest qualitative sense arose a variety of subordinate senses; it was applied to the faith the Church held, to particular communities or even individual members belonging to it, and especially in the East, to cathedrals as distinguished from parish churches, then later to parish churches as opposed to oratories or monastic chapels. After the separation of East and West ‘Catholic’ was assumed as its descriptive epithet by the Western or Latin Church, as ‘Orthodox’ was by the Eastern or Greek. At the Reformation the term ‘Catholic’ was claimed as its exclusive right by the body remaining under the Roman obedience, in opposition to the ‘Protestant’ or ‘Reformed’ National Churches. These, however, also retained the term, giving it, for the most part, a wider and more ideal or absolute sense, as the attribute of no single community, but only of the whole communion of the saved and saintly in all churches and ages. In England, it was claimed that the Church, even as Reformed, was the national branch of the ‘Catholic Church’ in its proper historical sense. As a consequence, in order to distinguish the unreformed Latin Church, its chosen epithet of ‘Catholic’ was further qualified by ‘Roman’; but see sense 7. On this analogy ANGLO-CATHOLIC has been used by some, since about 1835, of the Anglican Church.
5. Catholic Church, Church Catholic: the Church universal, the whole body of Christians.
b. Of or belonging to the church universal, universal Christian.
6. a. As an epithet, applied to the Ancient Church, as it existed undivided, prior to the separation of East and West, and of a church or churches standing in historical continuity therewith, and claiming to be identical with it in doctrine, discipline, orders, and sacraments. (a) After the separation, assumed by the Western or Latin Church, and so commonly applied historically. (b) After the Reformation in the 16th c. claimed as its exclusive title by that part of the Western Church which remained under the Roman obedience (see 7); but (c) held by Anglicans not to be so limited, but to include the Church of England, as the proper continuation in England, alike of the Ancient and the Western Church.
(Whatever the application, the implied sense is ‘the Church or Churches which now truly represent the ancient undivided Church of Christendom’.)
b. Hence, Of or belonging to this Church; of the true apostolic Church, orthodox: (a) Of belief, doctrine, etc.
(b) Of persons: Holding the faith of this Church; rightly believing, orthodox. (This and sense a appear to be the earliest uses in English. The n. is in 1425.)
(c) Of the writers, fathers, or antiquity, of the ancient undivided church, or accepted by the orthodox historical church.
(d) Of a particular body: Forming part of, or in communion with, this church. (Cf. ANGLO-CATHOLIC.)
7. As applied (since the Reformation) to the Church of Rome (Ecclesia apostolica catholica Romana) = ROMAN CATHOLIC, q.v. (Opposed to Protestant, Reformed, Evangelical, Lutheran, Calvinistic, etc.)
ROMAN CATHOLIC is the designation known to English law; but ‘Catholic’ is that in ordinary use on the continent of Europe, especially in the Latin countries; hence historians frequently contrast ‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’, especially in reference to the continent; and, in familiar non-controversial use, ‘Catholic’ is often said instead of Roman Catholic.
{dag}b. Catholic Seat: = APOSTOLIC See. Obs.
In ancient times the {kappa}{alpha}{theta}{omicron}{lambda}{iota}{kappa}{omicron}{gigrave} {theta}{rho}{goacu}{nu}{omicron}{iota} or catholic sees, were those of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.
c. Catholic King, his Catholic Majesty: a title given to the kings of Spain.
(In much earlier times the title belonged to the kings of France, Pipin being so called A.D. 767.)
d. See also B.
8. Recognizing, or having sympathies with, all Christians; broadly charitable in religious matters. (Cf. 3b. which differs only in not being restricted to things ecclesiastical or religious.)
{dag}9. transf. Orthodox (applied e.g. to orthodox Muslims). Obs.
10. Catholic (and) Apostolic Church: the religious body otherwise called Irvingites. (See quots. 1861, 1867.)
11. Comb., as Catholic-minded adj.
B. n.
1. A member of a church recognized or claiming to be ‘Catholic’ in sense A. 6; e.g. an orthodox member of the Church before the disruption of East and West, as opposed to an Arian or other ‘heretic’; of the Latin Church as opposed to the Greek or any separating sect or community (e.g. the Lollards); of a church or churches now taken to represent the primitive Church.
2. a. spec. A member of the Roman Church. English Catholic = English Roman Catholic.
b. Old Catholic, a term introduced after the secession of John Henry Newman and others to distinguish members of Catholic families in England since the Reformation from Catholic immigrants and converts.
3. Defined or limited by a word prefixed, as {dag}English Catholic, {dag}Popish Catholic, ANGLO-CATHOLIC, ROMAN CATHOLIC, q.v.
(See a different use of English Catholics, in sense 2 quot. 1876.)
b. German Catholic, Old Catholic: names taken by religious parties who separated from the Roman Catholic communion in Germany, the former under Ronge in 1845 (reunited 1848), the latter after the Vatican Council in 1870-71. Old Catholic is also applied to members of other churches separated from Rome, and united by acceptance of the Declaration of Utrecht of 1889.
{dag}4. = CATHOLICOS. Obs.
C. attrib. Of, relating to, affecting, or on the side of (Roman) Catholics. In Catholic Emancipation, etc. [In construction not distinct from the adj.]HTH --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 05:19, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
There is a new version of the note, proposed by jbmurray, based on an earlier version by Xandar, here. It would be good to get participant's comments on that. I suggest that if participants have concerns, it would be best to provide alternatives. Sunray (talk) 21:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
[Removed personalized statement by Jbmurray indicating that he believes that Nancy's version is more than merely "trimming."] Sunray (talk) 20:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is a link to the text for the Priest's Declaration of Intention Before Mass as published in official church missals before Vatican 2 ( I suspect the prayer wasn't written by Protestants ).
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=1755
Please note that this prayer twice refers to the church as the "holy Roman Church", not the "Catholic Church". I suggest that it's stretching credulity to think the reference to the "Roman Church" implies just the Holy See or the Diocese of Rome - or to the Roman rite. The more obvious interpretation would seem to be that "Roman Church" refers to the whole church in communion with Rome - especially in the second use of "holy Roman Church". Afterwriting (talk) 14:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Your interpretation may be correct but at present I am far from convinced. I will write more about my reasons for this when I'm able. I will be interested to know more, if possible, about the declaration's origins. Thanks. Afterwriting (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
I checked that it is not the original Tridentine Missal (1570)
A note, prepared by Jbmurray has been vetted by others in the sandbox. It now needs to be finalized. Here are some suggested next steps:
In sum, we have made considerable progress and there is more work to be done. Those participants who have not indicated their support for, or concerns about, a name change, may still do so in the "Support for name change" section above. Those who wish to participate in the latest discussion about the note may do so here. I would suggest we allow 2-3 days for finalizing the references and tweaking the wording of the note. Then I will move it here for a final look. Hope this is all agreeable (and I know I will hear right away about any concerns). Sunray (talk) 20:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
It is now a month since anything has been posted on this page. The passage has been disputed for at least a year and it still remains in the article. It was nearly two months ago now that the mediator explicitly authorised a notice in the article drawing reader's attention to the dispute. Some participants to this mediation nevertheless refused to allow said notice or any changes to the disputed passage. Is such a refusal appropriate? Gimmetrow 03:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)