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I am apalled and disgusted that you have two paragraphs of how slavery caused the Civil War, and one line of other factors. It is because of absurd comments like these that people think all people from the South are bigots and racists.
Did you know that the South freed slaves who would fight in the War? What, were they going to free them, win the war, and recapture them?
Slaves were not treated as bad as people claim. You want to know how a slave was really treated, you ask an Irishman from the South. Slaves were given shelter, food, medical attention, use of tools, etc. Any Irishman of the time was an indentured servant. They had to pay out of their own pocket for the food they had, the tools they used, where they lived, to be allowed to work the land, and any medical attention they could afford. Slaves were not beaten within an inch of their life, because the slave owner didn't want to risk the money.
"In Africa, slaves were often taken by other Africans by means of capture in warfare, and frequently employed in manual labor. Some slaves were traded for goods or services to other African kingdoms."- wikipedia
So, before the White Man ever took a slave to America, the Africans were already using each other as slaves. White men did not go to Africa looking for slaves, they were looking for valuable materials like gold and jewels. Africans sold Africans as slaves to get the White Man's money.
The real cause of the Civil War was that the North was experiencing industrialization and modernization, and wanted the South to remain farmalnd. The North was gaining a bigger voice in the federal government, and was trying to tell the South how it should be ran.
70.160.52.111 20:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)Chris Cobb 09/12/0670.160.52.111 20:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
No one's blaming modern day Southerners. This is history.Jimmuldrow 22:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
You people have NO IDEA how idiotic you sound, just reading half the crap you write is pure brain fodder. It's an American myth that the Civil War was started because the North wanted to end slavery, and the South opposed them. It is no more a myth than believing that "Good 'ol" Christopher Columbus was THE FIRST to ever discover America, which he DID NOT. For the Civil War it is a fact, that most of North America had a PRO-Slavery sentiment. Many people DID NOT care if slaves were able to be freed, what people really cared about was remaining ONE NATION instead to being split in two- The Confederacy and A Union. The South wanted to sever its ties to the North on it's own significant reason.
Also, the uneducated moron up there who says, "Slaves were not treated as bad as people claim. You want to know how a slave was really treated, you ask an Irishman from the South." I don't even want to know where you went to school, because you have no right to call yourself educated on the circumstances of the Civil War.
Wow! I used to think that the Civil War began due to huge differences in opinion between the North and the South. Then the Southern states seced and then attacked Federal land at Fort Sumter with war ensuing between the Confederacy and the Union. I didn't know that there were tariffs involved and many other peculiar things. Thanks to all of you for taking the time and passion to argue this.```ericferguson
People do not realize that Delaware (a northern state) was a major player in the slave trade and for its land area was one of the heaviest populated states with slaves. I have seen estimates that 10-20% of the slaves in the US were owned by African people. Since slavery at that time, and still today, is common in Africa many African slave owners came to America with their slaves and kept them as slaves after arriving in America. Please correct this article by doing research and not just allowing a person from the north that does not have the facts and probably dislikes the South anyway write your articles about the Civil War. Matt Atlanta GA 9/26/2006
This is an argument that has been bandied about since "The Lost Cause" arguments and is a favorite of good ol' boys here in the South to justify or rationalize our discomfort with: a. having had the institution in the first place b. having lost.
Actually, however, there is substantial truth in this. Like many political issues, there are many reasons and different views, and each can have some degree of truth. Slavery was clearly a politicized issue but it also was a real social issue for many northerners. Sort of like historians arguing in the future as to whether the war in Iraq was over terrorism, religion, oil, geo-political shuffling, an incompetent son trying to out do his daddy, etc. But it can't be argued that few southerners actually owned slaves nor did they have a financial or moral investment in slavery. Recall the answer given by the southern prisoner when his Union captor asked him, "You don't own any slaves. Why are you here?"
The Rebel replied matter-of-factly, "Because you are."
Again, considering the current state of affairs in Iraq, history does indeed repeat itself. Esdawg 06:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)esdawg
In the Wikipedia article, Just because southerners showed fear that slavery may be abolished when the union would takeover does not mean slavery was a cause of the war. -This unsigned comment was written by Birdoftruth
When boiled down to the core issues what you had were competing economic systems. To be successful with cotton or tabbacco you had to have labor and lots of it. The labor had to be cheap and assured. Any threat to that labor was an assualt on the southern economic machine. The needs of the northern industrial ecomonic machine were in wild variance. Yes slavery was at the core of the issue when you look at it because that enabled the southern economic system. Many wars have resulted from competing economic systems. This was just one more. Tirronan 23:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It was about slavery, the south's economy was based upon slavery. It boils down to the fact that they were greedy.66.174.93.99 21:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The article does seem a bit limited in its explanation for the causes of the war. The proximate cause of the war was economics. Surely, the economic differences between North and South were caused in large part by the existence of slavery in the South, but this is not explained in the article. Politicians are known for making public arguments in support/opposition of a war that are quite different from the actual reasons for their support/opposition. Anyone who has read the newspaper more than a handful of times in the past few years should know this very well. (JoeCarson 23:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC))
Well, you have to consider that Southern public opinion believed that the election of Lincoln was equated to the abolishing of slavery despite his repeated statements that he was not going to act against slavery because he thought that the constitution forbade it. For example, the Charleston Mercury resolved that "since the election of Lincoln to the Presidency, we consider our allegiance to the North as ended, and will therefore use our influence in favor of an immediate secession." [1] This argument is fairly lacking, so I think that the article should remain as is. b0lt 00:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Result part. Lincoln fought the war as a Unionist to preserve the union and as such one
of the results was the preservation of the union. 18:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no question that as written as of 4/20/07, the article is extremely biased. To say that "historians agree" that the American Civil War was nearly exclusively about slavery and economics, other than the economic involvement of slavery, had nothing to do with it is gross cherry picking. Lincoln himself said that his main objective was preserving the Union, whether by freeing slaves or not. How much more explicite does it need to be? And the only reason to preserve the Union so that complete control could be maintained, and what is more basic economically than that? If it were "all about slavery" then why did it take so long to free even just portions of slaves? It was not until well into the second year, when support ebbed, that Proclamations were made. Is that to say that slavery was not compelling as to the ACW? No, but there are several factors, statements, and the actual unfolding of FACTUAL history which states that slavery was not the ordinating reason for the war.--12.28.101.34 16:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I recently read an essay describing modern history's narrow view of John Brown and his achievements/acts. By the word 'achievements', you can see that I am biased. I'm Kansan, and I rather admire the old man. After all, who wouldn't dream of having that beard? But anyway, I would like to ask if anybody else would like to contribute and help me write either a more extensive write up of his actions here in this article (so long as they have major reprecussions in Bleeding Kansas) or that we create another article for him. T.z0n3 01:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
You said the Causes section needs to be organized better? I noticed that there are a lot of references to John Brown that might be redundant. Anything else you think is muddled or repeats itself? Let us know.Jimmuldrow 04:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I added this:
I rely on Fuller's Military History of the Western World. Trekphiler 08:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any mention of the technical or technological aspects. It was the first war with major use of railroads, telegraph, & rifles; the first where weapons production & the draft were important; the first to use entrenchment & dispersal against hostile fire, hand grenades, & a variety of flamethrower. (Fuller mentions the last 2.) It's widely acknowledged European armies paid no attention, or WW1 wouldn't have been such a bloody slaughter. It can be called the first modern war; Sherman & Lincoln were fighting the Confederate government. (Doris Kearns Goodwin gets it wrong; battlefield victories were irrelevant.) Once Lincoln promulgated the Emancipation Proclamation (a clear grand strategic move), there was no chance of British or French intervention; Britain had opposed slavery for 50yr by then, & France would never risk war with Britain to aid the Confederacy. Trekphiler 08:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
In the "Long-term economic factors" section I found the graph to be confusing. Having "CSA" as an item on the graph doesn't make sense. It essentially says "CSA is 100% of CSA". I finally twigged it was a comparative graph to compare the 100% CSA to the other economic advantages the Union held. Wouldn't it be better to remove the CSA bar and change the title to something like "Propotional economic advantage of Union over Confederacy" ? --Nickj69 08:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Victors do get to write history, but it is sad to see how true it is. Topics omitted from this article that could provide readers with a better understanding of the Civil War than their political educations include -- the great effort that Lincoln made to appease slave owners -- the role cotton played in industrializing economies (England, America, India, other developing countries) -- the tremendous demand for labor in and the exorbidant cost of transportation to the new world -- how the Confederacy expected to win and nearly did (outlast Lincoln vs. fall of Atlanta) -- how photography captured the horror of battle forever and forgot the misery of defeat -- Grant's experience in supplies and logistics prior to the army -- Lee's requirement that his men cease fighting vs. Forrest's plan to continue a guerilla war -- and of course, the various flavors of justsice, dispensed by the victors, the vanquished, and the victims. It's wonderful that someone is working to incorporate all the various topics of different popular encyclopedias, but it is important to remember that Wikipedia is not sold by door-to-door salesmen in small towns throughout the American Midwest. So it isn't necessary to exihibit so much anit-Southern bias in the presentation of the topic.69.255.0.91 14:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello, editors of American Civil War/Archive 5! I am currently working on an essay on Wikipedia, part of which will feature a comparison of articles of Wikipedia and Encyclopaedia Brittanica. To ensure that I send reviewers articles that have not been recently vandalized or have not been involved in an edit war, I would like, by December 31st, a revision of this article to be listed at User:Chrisisme/Research-permalinks that is not vandalized and/or is generally at peak quality. Thank you! Chrisisme 20:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
In the "Eastern Theater, 1861-63" there is a photo with the caption: "Confederate dead behind the stone wall of Marye's Heights, Fredericksburg, Virginia, killed during the Battle of Chancellorsville, May 1863."
This makes no sense. The action at Mayre's Heights occurred at the Battle of Fredricksburg in December of 1862. The Battle of Chancellorsville occurred in the Spring of 1863, and was, I would estimate, 15-30 mile away from the site of Mayres Heights.
I did not correct it because I have no way of authenticating whether the photo is actually the wall at Mayre's Heights (which it appears to be) or at Chancellorsville (which I doubt).
Ed Smith Chattanooga, TN
Previous to the age of Political Correctness, the complaints of those offended by the term Civil War have gone unheeded. As the Centennial for the North-South conflict approached in the 1960's the Southern States all established committees to organize the commemoration under differing names, but they never called it the Civil War. Only in the North did they designate it as the Civil War. Even today in the age of Political Correctness the term Civil War offends many Southerners, especially since it is term they perceive as a distortion of the facts and reasons behind the South's Secession. They tend to take great offense to outsiders writing and telling them their own history. Political Correctness is supposed to promote tolerance, but it would seem that PC has completely ignored Southerners' feelings where their own history is concerned. --Clay
Because many of the same issues seem to arise again and again (like Naming above), and since often many of these issues have been discussed ad nauseum in talk archives, and since those archives while prominently displayed are often not investigated before some new user gets offended about the choices made, I suggest we establish a few modest guidelines to help the page grow in progressive ways, instead of herky-jerky motion (though I admit a certain amount of hither and thither is inevitable). Further, I think we should post them at the top of this page and keep them there when archiving talk. I can commend the utility of the practice as established at Template talk:American Civil War Menu. Since the editors (including myself) have established some basic "notability" (I use that term loosely and unofficially) and style guides, these guides have helped keep our effort to that project coherent, while allowing changes. The guidelines on this article would by necessity be much less restrictive, but could assist this important and improving pagespace by clearly stating intention to new editors. BusterD 21:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Pictures speak a thousand words, yet in the muddle and boring text, there are very few maps that show the forntline in varoius years. As an amateur military historian, this article is very poor.
The 'American Civil War' is more appropriately called the 'War of Southern Independence'. The Southern States had legal and reasonable complaints for secession. The Northern States has threatened secession several times prior to this point. This war had little to nothing to do with slavery and had more to do with rights of States. Many do not realize that slavery was not fully abolished in the Northern States until after the conclusion of the 'Civil War'. Many also donot realize that many Northern States that abolished slavery had also made it illegal for African Americans to live in those same states, thus the reason the 'Railroad' for slaves went to Canada. African Americans caught in these Northern States were severely punished by beatings and expulsion from these states. Many Northern States had no love for African Americans. Another little known fact is that the North had accepted the secession of the South and even acknowledged their newly formed government prior to attacking them. This more appropriately redefines this war as an Invasion vs. a Civil War.
Realizing that to the victors goes the spoils; I still wish that history would be recorded with at least some facts, rather than all fiction.
Raymond (unsigned comment left by 66.82.9.83, 15:06, 11 November 2006, BusterD 15:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC))
edit: Out of curiosity, what were those "legal and reasonable complaintis"?
-Andy
"The Southern States had legal and reasonable complaints for secession." Honestly you're an idiot. Take AMerican History 101, read what the founders thought about secession, learn about the 1832 Nulification Crisis. Try to remember the massive slave-power controll over the Federal government for the decades leading up to Lincoln. Recall how every atempt at compromise was rebuffed by the South for thirty years before the Civil War. Also recall which side fired the first shot in the Civil War. (That's right the Rebels)75.86.149.112 18:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)Martin
The term American Civil War is the most common name for the conflict. If the article was called the War of Southern Independence, that would not reflect the majority, and would be an inconvenience. MoronicLegion 15:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Modern day Southerners think this article has an anti-Southern bias. Would adding the following be an improvement?
In fairness to Southerners, Northerners were far from perfect. The North had a mix of black codes and personal liberty laws. Only a few states in New England allowed blacks to vote the same as whites, and even there, blacks weren't allowed in every restaurant or hotel. Some Northern states had laws excluding blacks. If a few Northerners were Abolitionists, and perhaps a majority wanted a gradual, peaceful end to slavery, some Northerners were in favor of slavery. And Angelina Grimke believed in complete racial equality, but said that the North shared responsibility for slavery by buying Southern cotton.[2] As Lincoln put it in a speech to free blacks at the White House:
Perhaps you have long been free, or all your lives. Your race are suffering, in my judgment, the greatest wrong inflicted on any people. But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. You are cut off from many of the advantages which the other race enjoy. The aspiration of men is to enjoy equality with the best when free, but on this broad continent, not a single man of your race is made the equal of a single man of ours. Go where you are treated the best, and the ban is still upon you.[3]
Still, the differences between North and South on racial issues were large and growing.Jimmuldrow 20:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
True. I personally agree. And mentioning exceptions to the rule would add too much bulk. Which is why I mentioned the thought here before adding it to the article. The only reason I mentioned it is that angry Southerners think we're unfair, for some reason.Jimmuldrow 22:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
See what I mean? Jimmuldrow 15:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The addition doesn't say the black vote in the North (or lack of it) was the cause of the war. As the sub-title exists, it's only a caveat, i. e., the rest is true with the clarifications mentioned. As for the politics of the war, what is the "consensus of scholors"? Remember that Allan Nevins debunked the myth of abolitionists as a sole or major cause of the war way back in 1947. Nevins said that the positive good theory of slavery was completely developed in the 1820s, before Garrison was publishing his Liberator. Are there any other corrections you think need to be made that reflect the best current "consensus of scholors"?Jimmuldrow 16:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Avazina/Clay Carter wanted to say that slavery had nothing to do with causes of the war, and accepted the caveat addition as a "compromise." If you'd rather to butt heads with Avazina for awhile, be my guest.Jimmuldrow 03:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Can't help them much there.Jimmuldrow 03:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
You talk about unfairness and yet terms like "Northern Aggression" and this attitude of the Southerner being nothing but the poor innocent victim in the war gives me very little sympathy. As to the low number of people owning slave, I would venture to guess that's attributable to the average person not being able to afford to own slaves, and should in no way be taken as evidence of some moral opposition to slavery, which I think we can all agree was wrong? Southerners never mistreated Northerners? What about Andersonville (spelled right?)? And I think there is still some sort of deep resentment over losing there, hence the sensitivity to even using the term "Civil War". I think the reason that term is offensive to some is they want to feel they were truly independent for a period of time, thus it would not have been a Civil War but truly a "War Between the States." All this self-righteous digust disgusts me.-Andy
The Federals were willing to continue the exchange cartel, but the Confederates would not exchange black POWs on the same basis as whites. Certainly it's impossible to expect that the Confederate authorities would be able to provide adequately for enemy soldiers when they couldn't provide for their own. But to blame Grant (since it was his decision to discontinue the cartel) for the conditions at Andersonville is insufficient.--Khan Singh
All anyone needs to do whenever Andersonville is brought up is to do a search on Elmira Prison. It was just as bad, if not worse than Andersonville. The camp even had a doctor that claimed he had killed more rebs than any soldier on the frnt lines. And I have to acgree with Avazine in the above articles. The South has been grossly mis-represented by history for over 140 years. That's why we're upset. And the whole, "you lost, get over it", look at it this way. We're the only Americans EVER to lose a war on our own soil. Wouldn't you be a little upset. We take pride in out Way of life regardless.
Elmira was the worst of the Northern POW camps and doesn't even come close to the conditions at Andersonville.
It seems to me that having the Stars and Bars at the top of the page to represent the CSA is a bit like an article on the New England Patriots using "Pat Patriot" to represent the club. Wouldn't it make more sense to use the Stainless Banner or perhaps the Navy Jack, since it's the most easily recognized Confederate symbol? Khan singh 21:55 18 November, 2006
I haven't been active in the wikipedia for very long, especially on this page, and I'm absolutely appalled by all the vandalism. Is it always this bad? --Clay
In a 4 to 1 vote, this article has been delisted from the Good Articles list, for a multitude of reasons. It might be faster to just check the review, archived here: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 8 than for me to summarize it, each person voting against it seems to of had a different reason for it to fail each time :/. Homestarmy 20:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing the reasons this article was delisted, it seems likely we should:
So far, the lock has greatly reduced the number of "cranks" mentioned by one reviewer, and the "root cause" phrase was reworded. The Regional economic differences section was pruned a little and the State Rights section was expanded. More references were added throughout, the Analysis of the outcome lists were changed to prose paragraphs, and a sub-section was added to better explain why slavery was one of the causes of the war, since that wasn't done adequately before.
I don't remember McPherson, Catton, Nevins or even Shelby Foote saying that states' rights was the sole or main cause of the war, and the historical record (declaration of reasons for secession, Southern political speeches and editorials and so forth) when the deep South led the South in secession don't indicate that states' rights was seperate from the slavery issue, but that needs to be documented more.Jimmuldrow 16:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I've read (from Stampp, if I remember correctly) that some of the leaders of secession (Davis and others) emphasized slavery when secession began and states' rights when the war was over. We're all trying to avoid bias.Jimmuldrow 15:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
That's mostly true, except for the brief comment about "warfare on the domestic institutions of the Southern States." The South wanted the support of England and France.Jimmuldrow 00:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Homestarmy. I greatly shortened the note.Jimmuldrow 19:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to be too contrarian here, particularly given my fuss about recent major edits/deletions in the Abraham Lincoln article, but don't you think this article is going overboard on the causes of the war? After all, there is an entire subarticle on that subject, Origins of the American Civil War, which itself is 83K, and which is listed as the "main article" for this topic. Shouldn't this section primarily be a summary of that article, rather than trying to plow new ground? The subsection of this article on Causes is almost 5000 words long (30K of text without markup), which seems excessive for a topic that already has a lengthy subarticle. Hal Jespersen 01:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Most of the bloat is in response to what one person or another wants, including GA reviewers of this article mentioned above.Jimmuldrow 23:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know if William C. Davis ever finished his trilogy on the Civil War, The Imperiled Union? In the intro to Deep Waters of the Proud, he said the third volume would be called Rebuke the Raging Winds, but I can't find it anywhere online... Brutannica 03:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
For many months, we've been formatting this article with the TOCright template. Then a user comes along and changes it, and when I revert to existing style, says this choice is "arbitrary." I have no stake in this and see the page as far more attractive with the TOC right as not. I've certainly not going to get into an edit war over it. What's consensus? BusterD 12:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
As I can tell, this is a comprehensive and well referenced article worthy of GA. Wiki-newbie 21:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me the number of American Civil War battles that took place; the number won by the north and the number won by the south; and the number that were inconclusive?
Thanks,
Larry —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.136.180.237 (talk) 02:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC).
I'm very new at this and don't know much about the civil war, but I noticed on the 3-picture collage near the top of the page that the captions say to match the title of the picture "clockwise." I'm looking at the pictures, and shouldn't it be counterclockwise? I could be wrong.
I've noticed that many of the articles on major wars are far too long; So, I've decided to section them all off into smaller articles. This is a really big project, so it will take awhile, but sometime in the next month or two I will probably redo this article as well. Please tell me if you have any concerns about this, or have any material you want me to leave intact on this page. Thanks! Ahudson 18:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Take out the "indeed". The article you linked to says the 32k limit is "treated as a guideline, and considered case by case depending on the nature of the article itself." Do you know much about the American Civil War?Jimmuldrow 20:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
You seem to focus on the part you agree with. Since the article you mention says that the article should be up to 15 printed pages "treated as a guideline, and considered case by case depending on the nature of the article itself", and given the nature of the Civil War, and given the fact that the 15 page guideline doesn't include pictures and notes and lists, and given the fact that the rest fits on 20 MS Word pages with easy to read Arial size 10 font, you're too dogmatic about this.Jimmuldrow 21:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Any change to the size that would seem like an improvement to some would make the article seem worse to others. It's impossible to make everybody happy. The article recently got Good Article status and major changes at this point might do as much harm as good, if not more. Despite attempts to be concise, the subject matter makes it a problem to set an arbitrary maximum size. Please don't make major changes at this point in time. Jimmuldrow 01:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is full of irrelevant information that is downright BORING for someone just looking for general facts on the war. I agree with Ahudson.Celsiana 01:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it is too long - really not a thing that invites you to read Janzomaster 22:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I do believe that as there is an entire other article about the causes, this should be cut down. 'A House Divided Against Itself' is a horrible header, no one who hasn't read that speech would have no idea what you're talking about. I went aheda and removed one section that was pointless ('Nature of the War') and 'Aftermath, as they were mentioned in other sections and couldn't stand at their own. I suggest we aggregate the causes into less headers. Dåvid ƒuchs (talk • contribs) 02:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The changes Fuchs made at the end are for the better, but I think major changes would be dangerous.Jimmuldrow 05:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
After reading everyone's comments again and thoroughly examining the article, I have several more directed proposals to make. Please read them and leave brief, specific comments as to what you think about them.
Thanks,
Ahudson 02:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the article is definitely too long. Please realize the fact that the article size is the result of both the subject matter and to answer many complaints about the article when it was shorter. If you obsess about length, the result could easily be thrashing between mutually exclusive sets of complaints. That's what I've really been trying to say up to now. If you make it shorter by shortening less important items (states' rights, the tariff and so on) you'll get many complaints from people that want more detail on those issues. If you make others happy by removing slavery in the territories, for example, the article would no longer be factual or encyclopedic. You're not going to make everyone happy, and it's useless to try. Let me reiterate that thrashing between mutually exclusive sets of complaints is a real possibility here.Jimmuldrow 05:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
As per Hlj, I'll go ahead and delete it.Jimmuldrow 20:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
For purposes of comparison, the World War II article is 134 kb, the World War I article is 95 kb, and the American Civil War article is 106 kb. Of this 106 kb, 38 kb is on causes and 68 kb is everything else. The causes section for the American Civil War deals with more than its share of red herrings and other issues that cause confusion, hence the size.Jimmuldrow 18:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
As the American Civil War is such a broad and heavily doucmented and debated subject, would it not be best to have a short article on what the war was and divide the article into separate sections, e.g. causes, characters, campaigns, weaponry etc. The article itself could just contain a smaller, objective synopsis; who, what, why, when, where etc. State the dates, the factions, area of operations, main campaigns and thier dates, casualty figures and a conlusion. Then the individual areas can be accessed as desired, and thus debated over by topic, providing a series of smaller more manageable articles that can both comprehensively cover the period and ensure relevant and accessible accompanying discussions. I am currently dissuaded from reading this article or the accompanying discussions as they are too extensive for my 30 sec attention span. Apologies. 87.65.39.240 16:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC) Fred
I didn't know there was already a link for this.Jimmuldrow 05:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
What do other people think? Is there that much demand for the short and simple version? If not, I'll remove the link at the top.Jimmuldrow 05:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that in light of the quality and subjective nature of this article the link should remain, though I would also suggest adoption of the other article as a suitable replacement for the time being. Spite & Malice 16:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Table of Contents, it was so annoying that it was under the infobox on the right, this looks much better
Nyet.
Mustafarox 22:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
It's just a stub, but it already exists, see io:Usana Civila Milito. Thank you. io:User:Joao Xavier 00:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
As the previous editor noted, this addition:
Southern fears for the future included not only economic loss but also fears of racial equality. As E. S. Dargan said,
...and if the relation of master and slave be dissolved, and our slaves turned loose amongst us without restraint, they would either be destroyed by our own hands-- the hands to which they look, and look with confidence, for protection-- or we ourselves would become demoralized and degraded. The former result would take place, and we ourselves would become the executioners of our own slaves. To this extent would the policy of our Northern enemies drive us.[4]
has several problems. Number one, one source (which cannot be verified) does not equal consensus. Not only that, racial equality was never an issue for Northern or southern whites. The northerners were abolitionists, but they sure as hell did not regard blacks as 'equal' to themselves. Dåvid ƒuchs (talk • contribs) 22:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.
(emphasis mine).The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.
(emphasis again mine) andIn all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.
We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.
andThe constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery�subordination to the superior race�is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just�but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails.
If you simply Google on "Dargan 1861 secession", there it is. Are you sure you tried to verify this? And all the fuss about references when a reference did exist? And more incorrect assumptions about what historians have to say about it? I try to assume good intentions, but still... Jimmuldrow 14:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, now everything needs multiple references, because one isn't enough? Or is this true only when someone has a non-neutral POV and wants to shorten the article by taking out facts they don't like?Jimmuldrow 14:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, even if you haven't read a lot about the Civil War, how do you go about judging whether something is plausible? Did more than one person assume that Southerners had supremist attitudes in 1961 but not in 1861, when slavery existed? Or that Stephen Douglass Democrats in the North had supremist attitudes (although not enough for Douglass to support a slave code for the territories) but that the much more extreme Southern Democrats believed in equality in the region that would be affected the most by emancipation? Why were you so certain of such unlikely assumptions?Jimmuldrow 15:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Now there is a statement by professor Freehling (his book was one of Library Journal's Best Books of 1990) on supremacy as one of the motives for supporting slavery, and a link for the statement by secessionist Dargan on the subject. And to the comments up above regarding Article Size, NOW do you see why the article is so long? People never just say they don't know when they don't know.Jimmuldrow 00:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Does that mean I can make the article shorter by restoring this part of it to the way it was before? Jimmuldrow 06:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned above, there are multiple reasons for saying you people aren't coming up with good sounding reasons. It started with Birdoftruth saying that one reference was no reference??? and that for some unique reason more than one reference was needed, and now no number of references that differ from your point of view are enough. You're going beyond reason .Jimmuldrow 17:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Besides, it was clearly stated to begin with that supremist attitudes were an additional motive, not the only one, so here's another reason for your opinion that I don't understand.Jimmuldrow 17:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, there is a link to the original source, so what do you mean by "refrence the quote from its original source?" Is this also an improvement that doesn't really apply here? And why the persistent combination of people who are very certain they're right and inconsistent or worse reasons why?Jimmuldrow 18:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It does sound as if Ahudson, Fuchs and Birdoftruth all made up the fib that the reference couldn't be verified, even though a very simple Google search would have done so, and added multiple (seemingly deliberate) mistakes, contradictions and inconsitencies as stated reasons for more than one revert.Jimmuldrow 03:32, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Ahudson. I might have overreacted.Jimmuldrow 17:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
This Article is in no way neutral, the author makes the claim that their is no way that the South could have won the war, yet many modern historians believe that this would have happened if the south would have had the industrial capacity that the Northern States had. As a matter of fact it is widely thought that the south had more to fight for,as well as the fact that the south inflicted more casualties on the north then vice-versa, and with outdated weapons. Also, the article claims that the main cause of the civil war was slavery, when any historian will tell you that while slavery was an underlying cause, the main cause of the civil war was in fact states rights,as many of the top southern generals were in fact anti-slavery. I ask that all of this be included in interest of the neutrality wikipedia requires in its articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.45.130.162 (talk) 17:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
Yes, but the author claims that the North fought "with one hand behind their back" maybe Im wrong, but recruiting kids to fight, as well as females to be nurses seems like they were full out fighting. Plus in the emancipation proclamtion, slavery was only outlawed in the rebelling states and among blacks who fought for the north, so if slavery was such a large cause of the war, then why didnt lincoln set free northern slaves as well? (They were there) Slavery was just a part of the states rights battle, the states believed they had to right to decide whether or not they would have slavery. They also believed they had the right to nullify federal laws they didnt like, as well as any tarrifs they disagreed with.
These CSA nostalgists are grasping at straws and it is a national embarrassment that they cling to their offensive federation and army. What a lame ruse, this preserve out culture excuse for the Confederacy. Dogru144 00:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
One culture is just as valid as another and should not be obliterated from history just because someone feels like it. Your comments are unnecessary and rather small minded. As for a national embarrassment, I am sure you can think of many more and many worse ones. The American Civil War was an unfortunate event and certainly saw the end of a certain frame of mind, if not a culture in itself, in the Southern states and for that the world is of course a poorer place. Also, did you mean to write "preserve out culture" or "preserve our culture"? Spite & Malice 16:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The main cause of the Civil War was the fact that the North (Union) was becoming industrialized, but could not meet the prices produced by England. Southern farmers could get equipment shipped from England cheaper than products built here in the US (kinda like today's auto market). So the North placed tariffs on products built overseas, making them more expensive than products built here, forcing the South to purchase Northern built equipment at a higher price.
It wasn't until the Union was beginning to lose the war that they promised all black men that fought in the war their freedom, so as to increase their numbers of soldiers. Notice, they were not promising all blacks freedom.....only the ones who fought for the Union.
Slavery was not an issue until the war was almost over. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.98.170.230 (talk) 14:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
The poor could avoid the tariff by buying American made products. It was the wealthy who wanted to buy the best made imported products that paid the tariff. Large plantation owners copied the life style of European aristocrats, but wealthy Northerners also paid a tariff. Also, there were owners of Southern sugar plantations and Southern former Whigs that supported the tariff.Jimmuldrow 16:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Let's just say that by all accounts, both North and South thought slavery was the big issue, and leaders of both sections said words to that effect many times. There were other background issues in the years leading up to the war, mostly related to long term control of the Senate and White House, such as disputes over bills for a Morrill tariff, a Homestead Act, land grant colleges, a transcontinental railroad and repeated Southern attempts to annex Cuba as a slave state. All of the background issues would affect which section would grow and gain long term control over the federal government, which in turn would affect the security of slave property. But it was slavery itself, especially in the territories, that got the most attention.Jimmuldrow 16:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The reason slavery is considered the largest issue leading up to the war is because no matter what you do, slavery can be connected with most of the issues at hand. Slavery was an issue, but to say display the South as some sort of evil monster that left thier government behind because they wanted to keep slavery is nuts. Yes, the Southern economy was dependent on slavery, but slaves in the South were treated far better than most places. And before anyone trys to bring up that one photograph of a slave with the horrific slashes on his back that every one in this country has seen, where are the other pictures? I have yet to really find evidence of horrible mistreatment of slaves on a large scale in the South. Also, if the South fought mostly for slavery, then there wouldn't have been much of an army of the Confederacy. Only 25% of whites in the South owned slaves. Barely .7% owned more then 40, and less than .1% owned more then 200. So not everyone had slaves. Poor farmers aren't going to die for aristocrats. The average soldiers of the South fought and died to preserve thier home, thier families, and thier way of life. Yes, slavery was involved, but just because most history books make it out to be the only subject, doesn't mean it is. MykeAlaan
Howdy!
I would like to point out if it already has not been done so that this article needs to be corrected to reflect the facts.
(1). Civil War is an incorrect term applied to this war to deliberately skew the facts of the conflict. For example, for this to be an actual Civil War the South would of had to plan on making Washington its new capital. The Confederacy had no such plans of moving its capital to Washington, nor did it have any plans to conquer the Northern States.
The Confederacy sought independence from the Northern States for various reasons; in no way did they seek to rule the North and abolish the Union government.
Thus the correct term should be "The War Between the States" which was what this conflict was called until around the 1920's when the text was changed to reflect the new and very false term of "Civil War". I have US War Department books and registers at home that are from the 1870's - 1890's that reflect what the United States as well as the Confederate States both considered the conflicts description to be, which was "War Between the States"!
I can present evidence to back this up.
(2). Reason for war and succession between the Northern and Southern States was not slavery. This was a hot topic during the war, but did not lead to the war, the main reason for the war was Nullification.
Here is my logic, out of the 15 Southern States and Territories, only 4 listed slavery as a reason for secession in their grievances against the United States (Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, and Texas). The other 11 States made no such comment in their articles of Secession,
also the CSA banned slavery shortly after the Emancipation Proclamation anyway. Thus if slavery was the main purpose for the war, then the war should had ceased at this point.
In addition to these facts the State of Delaware did not ratify the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution until 1910 and had slaved way after 1865. Thus if this war was only over slavery then the Union should had sent troops into Delaware to abolish slavery in that state as well.
To back up this point the States of Kentucky and Mississippi also rejected the 13th Amendment in 1865, the State of Kentucky ratified the amendment in the 1970's and Mississippi finally ratified the amendment in the 1990's; thus yet again if the bloodiest war to be ever fought on US soil was fought solely over slavery then how come not one Union solider was sent to free the slaves?
The final piece of evidence in the remarks of ole Abe himself over slavery, in which he commented that "If he could of freed no slaves and won then the war then he would of done it, etc." These remarks came from the horses mouth and can not be over looked. Abe clearly says that he did not fight over slavery, his fight was to squash the rebellion and bring the Union back together at any cost.
(3). Wikipedia needs to add that the Confederate States of America still lasts to this day, as a nation under occupation in the similar way Ukraine did under Soviet occupation, and Poland did under German occupation (not trying to make the US sound bad, nor compare it too the Nazis or Soviets, just could not think of any other occupied nations off the top of my head).
If I'm wrong please correct me, but last time I did research the Confederate Government issued no surrender to the Union, thus much like many other nations, the nation of Dixie still exists, just under Union occupation.
No many may argue that the CSA was never officially recognized by another nation, which is incorrect. The Holy State of the Vatican recognized the CSA, its people, and its leadership, in a letter from the Pope to then President Jefferson Davis.
(4). No where in this article does it mention the plight of the Black Confederate soldiers which have been discriminated against by the US Government for the past 130+ years.
There is evidence which shows where Union officials doctored records following the war to cover up the existence of these brave Southern warriors.
In closing, while this article is good and covers a lot of history which was left out, I feel that Wikipedia needs to add a bold and bright column explaining that this war was not a "Civil War", and this war was not fought over slavery.
I would also like to personally add that the Confederacy and the battle flag were not intended to be symbols of slavery and oppression, and thanks to US government propaganda machine and the ignorance of Nathan Bedford Forest and his Klan these symbols have become symbols of slavery and oppression.
Thus with this in mind the Confederacy and its symbols are no different then the religion of Islam which has also been hijacked by fascist whom have bastardized its intended purpose to promote racism, hate, violence and ignorance.
We will never truly banish racism until we reinforce the truth and eliminate the Klan's power in the South which is all built on a hill of lies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PBFloyd (talk • contribs) 14:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
This article's description of a historical event seems deeply partisan and references limited sources. Sugggest contributors expand their reading list, focusing on older works by eyewitness and professional historians instead. The overreliance on McPherson alone should destroy any historical merit this article may have. Underreferencing is also a serious problem. The number of primary sources in existence are more than enough to rely on, supported by authors of Catton's era (also notably undersourced) and earlier. There should be no need to rely so heavily on some of the more recent, and more partisan works, that this article relies on; the majority of sources originating from the post 1960s era. The section on slavery is too large while the other causes for the war are only briefly glossed over. In fact, the talk of slavery throughout the article dwarfs even the section on the actual combat. The predominance of slavery and slavery related issues reveals a deep-seated bias that, as a result, impinges so heavily on the article so as to remove any historical merit, reading more like propaganda than a historical work. This article should have its "GA" status revoked, if it is not completely removed from Wikipedia. The historical quality of this article is unnacceptable. Spite & Malice 13:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Rjensen, this tag should be here; even if the regular editors know that the article is too long, if the tag is there, more experienced editors may come in and help as well. If the tag is not there, however, it won't be categorized as such, and the article will remain in its extended status for longer that otherwise. Ahudson 23:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
There might be more inexperienced editors here as well as a result of the tag, as happened once before even without the tag.Jimmuldrow 03:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, there should be a more standard policy for articles that are long because of the subject matter, as opposed to some other reason. Did I mention that the World War II article is 133kb? Even a smaller war like the Korean War is 94kb, which is almost as long as the Civil War article. Shouldn't the subject matter be a factor? I think it should.Jimmuldrow 23:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The British never entered the war as a nation, but many individuals served in both armies, most of them in the Confederate Army. There were never many of them but they were noted for their previous military service and often became leaders. One member of a Union unit wrote home: The Corporal of our detachment is an Englishman and celebrates today as the anniversary of 'Inkerman'2 and wears his medals on his jacket, including the Victoria Cross with silver bars3, possibly the greatest honour an Englishman can earn. He was Sergeant Major in the Rifle Brigade and I can assure you he is by far the best soldier in our company. I find it worthy of mention that there are about 20 Englishmen in our Company (about a fifth) and although we are small in proportion, every Sergeant is English excepting the Quartermaster Sergeant who is Scots. British nationals in the Union Army won 67 Congressional Medals of Honor4 during the Civil War. Many who fought for the Confederacy were undocumented, but a number of senior officers were British. As ever in fields of battle, there was a generous representation from Ireland, including General Patrick Cleburne of the Confederate Army, born in Cork, commanding a division in the Army of Tennessee. He too had served in the British Army, the 41st Regiment of Foot, in which he reached the rank of Corporal.
Dab182 14:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I looked very briefly through a few random Wikipedia history articles that are currently Featured Articles. Many of them were more than 32kb, and the Byzantine Empire article is longer the the American Civil War article at 113kb. The Alcibiades article is almost as long at 89kb, and the same is true of the Demosthenes article at 86kb. The Columbine High School Massacre article was about a much smaller incident than the civil war and is a Featured Article at 67kb. This is from checking a few random samples that represent a small fraction of those listed.Jimmuldrow 18:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I would say @ 113k this needs to be summerized and taken to sub pages. There is a reason for this and we need to respect that recommendation. The other articles should be as well and I am beinging to work on something for the Waterloo article for the same reason. One of the parts that just screams for the treatment is the reasons subsection Tirronan 00:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
It would be better if they came up with some sort of consistent policy for this sort of thing. I thought the policies for Featured Articles were tightened up quit a bit from before, and enough of them are long. Why such inconsistencies?Jimmuldrow 01:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I am asking that this article be reviewed for the following reasons:
1. Historical inaccuracies are rife.
2. The article relies on one source (McPherson) for 39% of all references.
3. The article makes little to no use of some of the more established Civil War historians from the post war era using predominantly post 1960 authors.
4. The article makes little use of eyewitness accounts and official documentation of which there is an extensive amount.
5. Many of the comments are without reference.
6. The author/s have taken a heavily partisan point-of-view and not retained an objective stance on a highly debated and potentially sensitive subject; using their knowldege of the period solely to support their social opinions as opposed to providing a factual and comprehensive article on a period of history.
7. There are still grammatical errors.
8. The article has ommitted or glossed over key aspects of the conflict.
Spite & Malice 14:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
As a historian I am not impressed by this article, and slightly offended by the way in which it fails to retain an objective stance on an issue which has, in time, become one of the most subjectively debated. There are of course the CSA nostalgists, but there are also the USA enthusiasts. The problem with this period of history is that too often it is viewed from one of these camps. My books and notes on the American Civil War are, unfortuneately, a very long way away and I cannot propose changes until I am back with my library. If the Wikipedia community, of which I only became a part of to preserve the historical integrity of this very article, sees fit to leave the article as it is, then I will not question the well read people who created this article, merely propose changes. Thank you very much for listening to what I had to say, and thank you to everybody who has had an input into this article. Spite & Malice 08:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the number of references you mention for McPherson are due to the fact that, for major battles, it's arbitrary as to whether the reference is from McPherson or Catton or Foote. It really doesn't matter much which is used. As for older historians, I read Nevins 8 volumes on the war, and Foote's 3000 page account (most of it twice), many books by Catton and so on. There's nothing wrong with the older histories, and we're aware of them. I don't think anyone is trying to be biased.Jimmuldrow 14:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I'm not sure that the best historians of the Catton era (like Catton, for example) are CSA nostalgists.Jimmuldrow 14:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
In the GA review you said that America has "two heavily partisan camps of 'historians' constantly pushing thier own agendas and threatening to tear history to shreds." Is this true of the major historians? Are you saying that we should count "The South was Right!" as being on the same level as Nevins, Potter, McPherson and so forth?Jimmuldrow 14:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course it is. There are very few historians in the world who find themselves capable of writing an entirely objective history, and must fall into one of the two camps.
Catton is obviously not a CSA nostalgist. His work is written predominantly from the Union point of view. He is, I suppose, a USA nostalgist. There do, however, exist books that come close to the quality and skill written from the more CSA nostalgist party, and these must not be ignored. It is essential to study both sides of an argument in a historical context, otherwise your article, as it is in this case, will be redundant.
My main gripe is how heavily slavery is mentioned. The war is covered in one chapter and six measly subheadings. Slavery is directly mentioned in the titles of six subheadings and also has its own chapter heading. It is also mentioned, at times most excessively, in most if not all of the article. Damn it, the overview of the war splits it into ridiculous time periods, not even a campaign, let alone a battle, is granted the same privilege as even an issue as insignificant as Uncle Tom's Cabin (with its own subheading). I really couldn't care if this article is changed or not. Please just answer me, is this article about the American Civil "War" or slavery? Thank you anyway for taking the time to reply. Spite & Malice 15:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
When I said "of course it is" i wasnt referring to "The South was Right!". Your example was just taking the mickey. There are far less partisan works. It is easier to be partisan from the victor's perspective and get away with it than it is to be honest from the objective or the losing side. Spite & Malice 15:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Then what are some first class examples?Jimmuldrow 15:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a list of sources back home. One which should be included in any American Civil War history and is not here is Battles and Leaders. I can't think of many historians who haven't referenced it in a historical work. Except, of course, here. Sheridan in the Shenandoah wasn't a bad one for the valley campaigns. Clifford Dowdey did a fine one. The name escapes me. I'll give you a full list when I get home. I'm dodging work for you matey! Spite & Malice 15:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no need for this part, so I have erased . Lokinjo 14:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
You also erased John Brown's raid, Military factors, Analysis of the outcome and so on.Jimmuldrow 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Interesting side note: Harriet Stowe had never in her life set foot in the South or on a plantation. MykeAlaan
John Brown's first fame, before the Pottawatomie killings, was his defense of Ossawatomie, Kansas, from Missouri Border Ruffians. Forgive my spelling, if I've gotten it wrong. I know there was a musical, "Ossawatomie Brown," or of some similar title, made just weeks later, celebrating his valiant defense against the raid. It seems relevant to the section on Brown and Kansas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.253.23.172 (talk) 21:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
I've been working on a new bibliography as a companion for this article, American Civil War Bibliography, culling titles from the relevant Wiki articles and also recent books. Comments and advice appreciated. Rjensen 12:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I added a citation request for the claim that most scholarship regarded him as a bloodthirsty madman. Two sources, both available online, were provided. One is an anonymous book review [14] in Publisher Weekly, which is where the claim is taken from word by word, and which cites books by S.B.Boyer and R.O.Oates as an example showing that. The other is an article by Ken Chowder [15], which, while calling Brown "the father of American terrorism", also cites those same works by Boyer and Oates as ones where "John Brown the hero re-emerged". "Boyer, in particular, clearly admired him: at bottom Brown "was an American who gave his life that millions of other Americans might be free". Chowder also cites and quotes a number of other historians who have a more favourable opinion of Brown, e.g. Paul Finkelman. He takes time to refute the arguments that Brown was a madman. So that article actually appears to disprove the statement from the book review that has been included in the article. Thus, I think that the text should be changed to a more balanced version.
And BTW, in case I am making that impression - I, personally, do not approve of killing unarmed civilians, not even for the cause of the abolition of slavery. :) --Anonymous44 03:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
You know, I think that the whole section on Brown should be erased, since he already has its own article, and the Civil War article is getting WAY too long.Lokinjo 21:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The lead for this article seems unwieldy. The first paragraph is perfect, but then it digresses into a chronological overview. Could the last part be made very, very concise? Alternatively it could be dropped all together and made a one paragraph lead, such as at World War II. Goodnightmush 00:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
That part should be its own article. Uncle Tom's cabin shouldn't be there..., and the Civil War article is getting WAY too long. Lokinjo 20:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
WAIT, IT IS ITS OWN ARTICLE! ME MAD! :( Lokinjo 20:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)