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Okay, let's try another approach. Changa's content (or at least some of it) may be able to be included. Using whatever reliable sources he has, a sentence can be structured along the way of "The Arjut tank successfully completed [whatever][1], however this is under dispute because [whomever] says that it had many failures[2]."
However, if his sources are indeed reliable and up to date, then some of his content should be included, but the article should include both points of view, as long as they are reliably sourced and not an inference or from original research. It's fine if two reliable sources contradict one another, just as long as the information from both is included. Let the reader decide for themselves.
Or you can can a "controversy" section.
Everyone needs to keep in the mind that one of Wikipedia's policies (as stated at Wikipedia:Verifiability), is that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." Basically, it doesn't have to be true, but if a reliable source says something, then it can be included, because it's verified.
So... before anything gets added/changed, propose it here first. Put your EXACT sentence/paragraph here first including your references to your sources. Then everyone can give their comments/suggestions on whether to include it or a modified version of it. Sound good? Jauerbackdude?/dude. 16:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The failure is history. There can be a historical section in which the failures can be edited. I can do it. But no deliberate attempt must be made to use speculation in this article. Everything must be correct. Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Whatever that has been edited and that got reverted. Objection on any of those edits can be discussed and agreed on to make the article with correct info.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 13:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Rather than cut paste the whole sections, I will provide the link.[1] Chanakyathegreat (talk) 05:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
O.K this is the version I propose.
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Arjun (Sanskrit: अर्जुन) is an Indian main battle tank being developed by DRDO (Defence Research and Development) for the Indian Army. It is named for Arjuna, one of the heroes of the Indian epic 'The Mahabharata'. HistoryFollowing the experience of the 1971 War, The Indian Government decided to indigenously develop a Main Battle Tank, with induction by the early 1990s. The programme was approved in 1972, and a General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR) released by the Indian Army. The Government sanctioned Rs. 15.5 Crore for the initial part of the programme in May 1974.[4] By May 5, 2008, DRDO had spent Rs.307.48 Crore on Arjun MBT program.[5] The tank cost less than the western MBT's in its class.[6] DRDO, with CVRDE as the main laboratory, was tasked with developing the hull, armor, turret, running gear and gun, with the powerpack being bought from abroad.[4] Originally intended to be a 40-ton MBT armed with a 105 mm gun, the Arjun’s project requirements were upgraded to 58.5 tons with a 120 mm gun. The project has had a protracted developmental time, some 36 years thus far, thanks to the design needing to be adapted for the harsh operational conditions in India, the ever-changing requirements from the Army and the lack of a prior heavy tank building industry in India. In the process of developing the Arjun, India established the infrastructure to develop and manufacture modern armour. The Heavy Vehicles Factory located in Avadi, in the southern state of Tamil Nadu is the facility that has been producing prototypes and pre-production models. The HVF has produced T-72s and Vickers main battle tanks in the past, and the Arjun is seen as a significant challenge. ProductionIn 2004 the first 5 Arjun Tanks were given to the Indian Army in August 2004. [7] The Indian Army has 124 Arjuns on order for two armored regiments.[8] The first regiment will be provided with 62 Arjun tank before the end of 2008.[9] The first 15 tanks of the 124 have already been activated. The planned production rate is currently pegged at thirty tanks per year, with the Army requesting fifty per year as the ideal. Arjun has been extensively tested, clocking 70,000 km, in addition to about 10,000 trial firings. Major General H.M. Singh, Additional Director in charge of trial and evaluation, said latest user field trial report had certified that the accuracy and consistency of the weapon system was proved beyond doubt.[10] The Indian army has deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory in the winter trials that began in September, 2007, including at least four engine failures.[11] This report presented before the parliamentary standing committee is said to be incorrectly provided by the Indian Army. The problem is reported to be with Renk gearboxes.[12] In the "accelerated user-cum-reliability trials" in 2008, the Arjun tank was run 3000 km non stop not to judge its performance but to find the spare parts that the tank will require in its life time.[13] It was reported that the Arjun tank "was found to have low accuracy, frequent break down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel", and "the tanks also had problems with consistency, recorded failure of hydropenumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls" as well as a "deficient fire control system", "low speed in tactical areas", and "the inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius". [14] [15] [16] According to Lt Gen Dilip Bharadwaj, Army Director General (Mechanised Infantry) "Army will no more place orders for Arjun beyond 124 that was already contracted. That is because Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT.[17] [18] Sabotage was suspected in the winter trials and black box were installed to monitor the performance of the tanks[19] in trials held in june.[20] The 5,000 km six month summer trial of Arjun MBT held till July 2008, demonstrated successfully the consistency of the gun and endurance of the Arjun MBT. In the trails held the MBT was able to hit targets the size of a suitcase at a distance of one kilometer.[21] The DGMF is avoiding a comparative trial of the Arjun and the T-90 tanks.[22], even thought there is wider acceptance among the soldier who operate the tank and the officers who had witnessed the performance of the the Arjun tank.[23] Looking into the future, the Indian army has initiated the process on acquiring an entirely new futuristic Main Battle Tank, to be inducted after 2020. The Indian army has held an "international seminar on future MBTs", during which the parameters and requirements of this future MBT were identified.[24] As a result, Russia has offered to team with India on developing this future tank.[25][26][27] SpecificationsThe Arjun's (Mk I) development has spanned more than three and a half decades of identifying requirements, design, evaluation, redesign process involving the DRDO and the Indian Army. Weighing in at 58.5 tons, it is significantly heavier than the Soviet-legacy tanks used presently by the Indian Army, and requires changes to the army's logistics establishment to incorporate Arjun MBT, including new rail cars to transport the bigger and heavier Arjuns. The production facility for the Arjun, set up at Heavy Vehicle Factory in Avadi has started to produce the tank after the technology was transferred by the DRDO. The required logistical changes are also being made. ArmamentArmed with a 120 mm rifled gun, the Arjun is capable of firing APFSDS (Kinetic Energy) rounds, HE, HEAT, High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) rounds at the rate of 6-8 rounds per minute and the Israeli semi-active laser guided LAHAT missile. In addition, it is armed with a 12.7 mm AA machine gun and a 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun.[28] The Arjun can carry 39 rounds in special blast-proof canisters. Loading is manual. A special prefragmented round is also under development. This shell has a proximity fuse designed to be used against low-flying aircraft, such as attack helicopters. This round could now be supplanted by the Israeli LAHAT ATGM which is to be acquired for the Arjuns. [29] The Arjun's Rifled Tank gun is unique since only it and the British Challenger 2 tanks use Rifled guns among modern tanks. The gun is extremely accurate at long range, which ensures a high first hit probability. The ministry of defence in a letter to parliament admitted that the firing accuracy of Arjun is far superior to that of the T-90 and T-72 tanks.[30] Fire control and navigation technologies are provided by Elbit, an Israeli defence company. The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 0.9 Pk) replaces an earlier analogue one, which had problems due to its inability to function under the harsh desert conditions. However, the new fire control system also frequently malfunctions when subjected to temperatures greater than 42 degrees Celsius. [31] The combined day sight from Bharat Electronics Ltd. and the thermal imager (formerly from Sagem, now reported to be from El-Op) constitute the gunner's primary sight. The first batch of tanks of the 124 ordered by the Army will have an all-digital Sagem FCS, whereas the second block will have the BEL developed IGMS (Indigenous Gunners Main Sight)[32] unit, which will be used for all units thereafter. The commander's own stabilised panoramic sight allows him to engage targets and/or hand them over to the gunner. The Arjun has an auxiliary power unit to operate weapon systems in silent watch mode as well. The tank incorporates GPS based navigation systems and sophisticated frequency hopping radios. The state-of-the-art Battlefield Management System, co-developed by DRDO and Ebit Israel, allows it to network with other fighting units. The Arjun has the capability to network with other tanks, thanks to its Battle Management System. In a search and engage operation, several Arjun Tanks can monitor an opponent and his moves, and eliminate him in a chase or ambush. ProtectionArjun has been designed with Western design practices in mind, especially reflected in its crew protection features. With a crew of four, it incorporates heavy composite armour and significant crew protection measures, including ammunition separated from the crew, and blow off panels on the turret bustle, and an integrated fire detection and suppression system. It also incorporates nuclear, biological and chemical protection.[33] Further, Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) panels can be added, though the current Kanchan armour is deemed sufficient for the Arjuns tank-killing role. The turret has been designed with the ergonomics of Indian Army troops in mind. The typical crew consists of a Gunner, Commander, Loader and Driver. It is protected by a Laser warning system and smoke launchers for counter measures. To further enhance combat survivability, the tank has an auto-fire detection and suppression system. Ammunition is also stored in watertight containers to reduce the risk of fire.[34] The turret and glacis are heavily armoured and use "Kanchan" ("gold") modular composite armour. The Kanchan Armor got its name from Kanchan Bagh, Hyderabad, where the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) is situated.[35] The armour is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA) to defeat APFDS or HEAT rounds. During the trials in 2000, the Kanchan was able to withstand a hit from a T-72 at point blank range, and was able to defeat all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds which included the Israeli FSAPDS rounds.[35] MobilityThe engine and transmission are provided by German companies MTU and Renk respectively. The water cooled engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and epicyclic train gearbox with four forward and 2 reverse gears. A local transmission is under trials and will ultimately replace the Renk supplied unit. The tracks which were being supplied by German company Diehl are now being manufactured by L & T, an Indian company. The cooling pack has been designed for desert operations. The Arjun has a lower ground pressure than the lighter T-72, due to its design. The Arjun has a state of the art hydro-pneumatic suspension that provides better ride comfort. This coupled with the Arjun's excellent stabilisation and fire control system, allows the tank superb first-hit probability against moving targets while on the move. Its ride comfort is highly praised. Though on the negative side, it is a more maintenance-intensive and expensive system, even if more capable than the simpler and cheaper torsion bar system utilized on many older tanks worldwide. During trials the Arjun showcased its fording capability, by driving under 6 feet of water for 20 minutes. A new 1500 HP engine is being developed that will eventually replace the present engine. An allocation of 40 crore Rupees has been allocated for the project which is expected to be completed within five years.[36] Variants
Photo GalleryNotes
References
DiscussionChanakyathegreat (talk) 15:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The above was collapsed to get this talk page under control. |
The failure as reported by the Army to the parliament is not really a failure. I will explain it in detail. This is the report that has been provided to the parliament about the winter trials.[3]
Every human made system fail after a certain point. Similarly the Arjun tank was run 4000 km non stop and after 4000 km the problem occured.[4]
“Normally a tank is supposed to operate for 3,000 km before it goes for an overhaul. The Army forced Arjun to do another 2,000 km and the reported failures happened after more than 4,000 km." This is the problem. The failure happened after running the tank beyond it's permissible limits.
Now we go back to the second part of trials which must not have forced the Arjun beyond the operational limit of a tank. We read reports of installation of black box was during this period. The trial was a success. [5] Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
By78, I had provided source to prove the second part of the trials were a success. Can you prove that the second parts of the trials were a failure. Any source wlll do. I will accept it.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 11:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, the real issue is still not understood properly. I am posting a link to a blog of that of a reputed journalist who visited the site during the trials and collected first hand information about the issues. Read it just for information purpose.[6] No need to put it in Wikipedia since it goes against Wiki rules of not posting from a blog.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 11:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The issue was with the Renk gear boxes which got sorted out and the tank performed flawlessly after that. The tank is a very good one. It's only the perception of Army that have to change for accepting the Arjun over the T-90. I will post another link.[9] In this it is reported that "In late August this year, the army completed nearly a year of what it calls Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) and somewhat unprecedented, extended trials in the desert of Rajasthan.
Trials that tested the three characteristics of any battle tank-firepower, mobility and protection. From all accounts the tank finally morphed from a white elephant into an extreme battle machine worthy of its moniker.
So far 15 Pre-Production Series (PPS) tanks have completed a cumulative 80,000 km, or the equivalent of two trips around the world, and fired over 8,000 rounds. ".
I hope this information is enough and you will not object to the having the earlier version. Also remember that the PIB link is intact in that version. Thank you.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 10:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
By78, please don't post in the middle. The PIB link exist in the version. It will not be removed. Bureaucratic infighting? Are we posting in some blog. The difference of opinion of the two Army men also find mention in the version. So you don't have to worry about that too. Thank you. Chanakyathegreat (talk) 02:42, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The PIB source will exist. The name of one is there in the version because he has made a comment and that is with source, for the other we don't have a link (except from the blog) to provide hence has to drop it.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 03:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
The following exists in the version, "According to Lt Gen Dilip Bharadwaj, Army Director General (Mechanised Infantry) "Army will no more place orders for Arjun beyond 124 that was already contracted. That is because Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT."
Now I hope you don't have any objections to revision to earlier version. Thank you.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 02:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
You are going in circles. If you don't want the edits you must prove it otherwise. Provide source. Provide source to reject my edits (quote the one you oppose with valid reason and source). Otherwise your claims will remain invalid.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 09:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
All reasoning is provided with hell a lot of links but still you being very adamant, not even ready to recognize and accept the details provided. And then after all explanation, you are again starting from the first line. I request you to go through the first line of this discussion page till the last one. If you have anything to prove beyond what has been edited by me, kindly reply with article links. Thank you.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The article has been restored to its original B-class version before the edits by By78. The PIB article on which By78 made the edit, is incorrect that report was submitted by the army. From the article[10] , the standing comitteed to which the report was submitted says "There were clear factual inaccuracies in the army's deposition before the Standing Committee. The most glaring of them is the army's suggestion that it is carrying out trials on the Arjun's performance.
In fact, the army has already accepted the Arjun for introduction into service, based upon its driving and firing performance over the years. After firing trials in summer 2006, the trial report (written by the army) said: "The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt."
The ongoing trials in Pokhran that the army is citing are Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT). In these, two Arjun tanks were run almost non-stop for 3,000 kilometres, not to judge performance, but to evaluate the tank's requirement of spare parts, fuel and lubricants during its entire service life." I would like By78 to prove that indeed the problems mentioned in the article is that mentioned in the PIB article from latest sources after the parliamentary committee agreeing about the PIB report being wrong.
Also I request Admins not to revert back. Until By78 proves the above requested things, his edit will become unverifiable and based on the PIB report which is incorrect. Thank you all.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 03:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Chanakyathegreat, your English and my English must differ a great deal. I read your article carefully, and it does not support your claim one bit. I am scratching my head here. Are you trying to pull a fast one on me, counting on I not reading your source carefully? Your article claims that Army mischaracterized powertrain failures during the Winter Trials, but in fact it was only the gear box. So what? I never denied that. The problem with you started when you GENERALIZED base this one little mistake to claim that Army lied about all the other defects. The PIB release, which is the most up-to-date, clearly cites the following "defects": 1) Failure of powerpacks, 2) Low accuracy and consistency, 3) Failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, 4) Shearing of top rollers, 5) Chipping of gun barrels. That is five "defects" listed. Now, let's take out item #1 because DRDO claimed that it was really the gearbox (due to possible sabotage). OK, now what do we have left? That's right, defects #2, #3, #4, and #5! Good job! How do you explain these defects away then?
Chanakyathegreat, stop beating the dead horse! What you are doing is highly illogical. You use Army's mischaracterization of a gearbox failure as an excuse to invalidate all the other defects Arjun has.
To continue my tradition of demonstrating basic logic via examples, here is a new one: Say I just bought a new Ford Focus, which after only one month of driving around, developed FIVE defects. The defects are failed gearbox, failed suspension, chipping of tires, malfunctioning satnav, and startup problems. I go to the Ford dealership with the list of defects in writing. However, I made a mistake in listing the problems. Instead of saying "gearbox failure", I mistakenly wrote down "engine failure". Now, this Ford representative starts arguing with me. He says, "but you are lying sir. You said it was an engine failure but it was really the gearbox. So the car must be PROBLEM FREE!". End of example. Chanakyathegreat, do you see what I am getting at now?
Your insistence on flawed logic is just uncool. I do not want to think badly of people, but you have amply displayed a tendency to "smooth" over the warts and setbacks of the Arjun project. Against the numerous Indian media sources extensively citing these problems, all you have done was continuing alone in your stubborn refusal to acknowledge the facts as they are. I am really saddened by the fact that Indian nationalism has been injected into this article in the form of deliberate whitewash of facts. I think it is time to remind you that objectivity and factual integrity should reign free in Wikipedia, not POV pushing, ulterior motives, and others petty considerations.
One final thought: the way to adhere to "truth" is through fearless, objective citation of facts, minus interpretations driven by personal agenda. Just because you are fond of claiming that "truth" is on your side does not earn you the reputation of an objective editor. You have to earn it through actions that demonstrate your factual integrity. Claiming that you adhere to truth, without actions backing up this claim, and therefore equating whatever you say as "truth" is utterly undemocratic and might I say, sanctimonious and frankly hypocritical. By78 (talk) 00:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
To Jauerback, if one has a difference, about an edit that edit can be reverted. That's what I did since the PIB report is an incorrect report. It's invalid. Each and every edit or revert need to be measured in on it's merit of being valid or not. Until By78 can prove that the PIB report is correct I will not revert to my version or his version but with the standard version that existed before this issue cropped up. Be fair.
To By78, if your Ford car requires parts change after 1000 km run, you cannot complain to them that their product failed. The specification says 1000 km and only thing that everyone using that car is supposed to replace the parts after the specified kilometers.
The PIB report was submitted to the parliamentary committee which found the report incorrect. If you want your version, you must have to prove that the PIB version is correct.
I am again submitting what the Committee has to say about the PIB report on which you are arguing. From the article[11] , the standing committee to which the report was submitted says "There were clear factual inaccuracies in the army's deposition before the Standing Committee. The most glaring of them is the army's suggestion that it is carrying out trials on the Arjun's performance.
In fact, the army has already accepted the Arjun for introduction into service, based upon its driving and firing performance over the years. After firing trials in summer 2006, the trial report (written by the army) said: "The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt."
The ongoing trials in Pokhran that the army is citing are Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT). In these, two Arjun tanks were run almost non-stop for 3,000 kilometres, not to judge performance, but to evaluate the tank's requirement of spare parts, fuel and lubricants during its entire service life."
Chanakyathegreat (talk) 03:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I am up for genuine compromise. This is getting really drawn out. I agree that there are a lot of controversies surrounding the Arjun project. Specifically, Chanakyathegreat has raised the allegation of sabotage, although this allegation has not been proven. Nonetheless, I did in fact incorporate it into the article. However, the problem started when Chanakyathegreat leveraged this allegation to discount all the other problems with Arjun. After carefully reading Chanakya's sources on the sabotage allegation, it became clear that the allegation pertained ONLY to a malfunctioning gearbox. However, many other well-documented problems remain with Arjun's tracks, FCS, guns, wheels, speed, etc. I am not willing to assent to Chanakya's edit because it essentially declares that Arjun is problem free (retroactively based on an outdated source from 2007 that was discounted by consensus). His edit amounted to a rewinding of history tape to a point in time BEFORE all the latest problems had been reported. I just could not let this stand.
Now, there is the further disagreement regarding the PIB press release [13]. This PIB press release from the Indian government was originally provided by Chanakyathegreat to prove a point concerning Arjun's development budget. This very press release, which is the latest official government assessment on where the Arjun project currently stands, cites the same set of well-documented problems with Arjun. However, when I used it as an additional source on Arjun's problems, Chanakyathegreat decided to attacked this very source of his as "incorrect". When I asked him to show me evidence that the release was "incorrect", Chanakyathegreat instead shifted the burden of proof to me and challenged me to prove the validity of the press release. This is ridiculous. It's like a defense attorney citing a piece of evidence in defense of his client, but when it unexpectedly proves his client's guilt, the defense attorney discounts the very evidence he provides and instead challenges the prosecutor to prove the evidence is valid. This is just not cool.
As you can see, there exists a large gulf of disagreement between I and Chanakyathegreat. I will let you guys be the judge. Please read the previous discussions in which I raised many objections that Chanakyathegreat never bothered to answer. Those points are still valid. In fact, all the latest hubbubs revolve around the same set of disagreements as before. I am reluctant to waste my time to further argue with Chanakyathegreat when he never bothered to answer my objections. Until these concrete points are resolved, it's difficult to reach a consensus between the two of us.
Thus far, I have rejected Chanakya's compromise proposal because it insists that Arjun is problem free and all the problems are due to sabotage, without Chanakya providing proof supporting his claims. His is hardly a sincere compromise. After I rejected Chanakya's proposals, he resorted to reverting the article on his own. Frankly, it's gotten to the point where Chanakya has a large objectivity deficit in my eyes.
I still stand by the current edit because it is based on consensus (minus Chanakya, obviously). I have incorporated Chanakya's information as best as I could. In fact, the current version covers the controversies. It cites the Pro and Against camps with direct quotes and extensively cited sources. This is as objective as I can get, and many other editors have agreed with me. If Chanakya provides valid, reliable, and more up-to-date sources, I will not hesitate to integrate them re-edit the article.
I believe I have demonstrated good faith and incredible patience (as have the admins) by answering every concrete objection raised by Chanakyathegreat (as amply recorded by this talk page). When unable to counter my points, Chanakya went so far as to cite "copyright violations" (presumably he regarded citing Indian news sources as illegal) as a reason to revert my edits. Instead of addressing my answers and objections, Chanakya evaded substantial discussions whenever they became specific. Instead of producing concrete, logical, and well reasoned replies, Chanakyathegreat launched unwarranted character attacks against administrators and fellow editors (charging me with racism and being a "dumb person") on the talk pages and admin boards. There has been three blocks so far on Chanakyathegreat for his uncourteous actions. I am the first one to admit that I have not always kept my cool during this entire debate. A few of my posts have been sarcastic, but they were never vicious, and I have always taken care to answer the specific points raised by Chanakya. However, Chanakya has been unwilling or unable to reciprocate, and I am reluctant to further indulge in this debate (my patience is seriously running short). Until Chanakya answers my still valid points listed in the discussions (with reliable, up-to-date sources), I will not acquiesce and alter my current position. By78 (talk) 00:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
By78, I asked a simple question, can you prove the PIB record as correct. As usual you are trying to derail the discussion telling totally wrong things. If I reply it will derail the discussion again. Can you prove the PIB report correct to retain your version?Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Since you have again tried to derail the discussion, and since it's necessary in Wikipedia to answer all things asked without weighing the content of it, I am replying to it.
Appreciate that you are ready for compromise. Hopes that you will study the subject further to get a real understanding of it and will support the reality.
Regarding sabotage, I had changed my stance long back. There was sabotage suspected and an enquiry ordered. Reports started appearing in the press of gear box failure and then the subsequent repair of the same by Renk engineers and how the tank perfomed flawlessly in the trails. Also black boxes were installed to measure various parameters. The real sabotage happened with the DGMF report (PIB) to the committee which found the report incorrect.
By78, you are not telling the truth. The report I submitted just above your edit[14] is from October 2008 and not from 2007. The 2007 report that you mention is the one trial that happened during that time in which the Army admitting the "accuracy and consistency of the tank is proved beyond doubt". Are you doing this because you did not read/study/understand the subject/issue properly or is it deliberate?
What you mean by you did not understand the PIB report is incorrect. Just look above. I had posted it with bold link and underlining so that you understand it properly.
Arjun in present form is problem free.
All issues that existed has been sorted out and it's an excellent tank. Now don't jump on me, this is not what I say, this is the guys who conduct the trials and use the Arjun tank has to say(from the above links).
I appreciate your patience. The problem was that I don't have your patience. More than a month I am reasoning, providing links, providing proof, trying to reach consensus... Also when I edit the article or revert it with links, gets reverted by the Admins. Hurray to the Admins.
Now regarding the accusations that you heaped on me. No comments. Thank you.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 05:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
This page will eventually become a T-90 tank article. By78 has added a link that's the same PIB link that I had provided to state that the multiple links he had added admonishing the Arjun tank sourced info from this page. (He had wrongly reported above that it was to state the Amount) Only later it was adopted to state the amount.
The PIB report states "In its meeting held on 26.3.1974 the Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs approved project for design and development of Main Battle Tank with an outlay of Rs. 15.50 crores. The same was enhanced to Rs.305.60 crores due to changes in the General Staff Qualitative Requirements and cost escalations caused by inflation."
By78 adds "By 1995, DRDO had spent Rs. 300 Crore on Arjun MBT program, over-running initial budget by almost twenty folds.". Why is it required to mention twenty folds there. I know mathematically it's twenty folds. But if he wants to project it as a huge amount (yes it's huge from an oridinary man's viewpoint) from a tank development perspective especially a one with western design practices and future tech (not found on Russian tanks like hydro pneumatic suspension, Kanchan armour, Rifled gun etc), then this amount is really a tiny amount. Considering the inhouse development of the technology, development of tank development industries that amount is small. Also did you check how much it took to develop other tanks.
Another edit in which the fact was provided, "n order to acquire a competent main battle tank that would satisfy the urgent needs of present time, the Indian army has signed a deal to license produce a further 1000 T-90 tanks, thus greatly diminishing the prospect of Arjun's widespread adoption.[1][2] "
Where in the link it says the Widespread adoption of Arjun will be diminished with the induction of T-90. It's your addition. I would like to point out that the T-90 and Arjun were delinked from each other from an induction point of view by the government and the Army and they had commented "The Arjun is a tank in it's own class"[16]
By78, Now do you have anything to prove the PIB report with the so called problems correct?Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
As of July 2008, about half of the initial production run has been built, but the tank has not yet formally entered service due to problems during trials. —Christopher F. Foss, “Russian Tank Facility Offers its Expertise to India”, Jane's Defence Weekly, 30 July 2008, p 6.
I added the above sourced statement about production and acceptance of the tank a while back, and it was shortly removed without an adequate explanation. Is there a reason not to include this in the article? —Michael Z. 2008-10-01 06:06 z
That's based on the T-90 purchase and subsequent licensed production of the T-90 in India. You can add it in the T-90 article, India section.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Can you provide the link to the article, I cannot find it. There is transfer of Russian technology to produce the T-90 locally. Link please, then I will explain it.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 16:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Chanakya, let's try it this way. What is your specific issue with the quotation Lt General Dalip Bharadwaj, the Director General for the Mechanized Infantry, has expressed the status of Arjun tank as such, "Army will no more place orders for Arjun beyond 124 that was already contracted. That is because Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT... Arjun is a contemporary tank and may be used in the next decade or so, but not for a technologically advanced, next generation warfare some two decades hence." You keep on repeating that you want this removed but I would like a clear-cut reason. That is an exact quote from the source. Is there some other reliable source you have in mind? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Even though you are mixing the Arjun as a tank and Arjun's induction into the Indian Army issues together, let me explain that Lt General Bharadwaj is free to make any comments but the final decision on the tank has not been taken by the Indian Army or the political brass. I can also point to many favorable comments on the Arjun tank from the Army men[17]. Until they say that no more Arjun, or more Arjun we cannot say how many Arjun will be in service with the Indian Army.
From [18], The head of the Pune-based Southern Command, Lieutenant General N Thamburaj, strongly backs the Arjun. On a visit to the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan to watch his troops exercising, Lt Gen Thamburaj noticed the Arjun firing nearby.
After walking across, he was invited by the DRDO team to drive and fire the tank. Half an hour later, the general was an Arjun backer; two holes in the target he aimed at testified that a soldier without previous experience operating tanks could get into the Arjun and use it effectively.
Now for some picture proof from a discussion point of view.[19] with the caption "(Photo at right: The same day, Maj Gen Shiv Jaswal, Chief of Staff, 10 Corps with his target. This was the first time he had ever driven or fired a tank)"
Now if you want what the minister (the top decision maker) have to say Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts: "I've spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment)… who have been testing the tank… I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun.
I said, you've driven this tank and you've driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And I've found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank."
So the minister will also take a decision based on the men who use the tanks. If they are very much satisfied with the Arjun tank and finds it superior to the T-90, the political decision will also be on those lines.
Chanakyathegreat (talk) 09:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Also, stop with the "correct" nonsense. Assume good faith and respect other people's views. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:15, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
To whom? If it is towards me, then "you are not doing it". Wiki edits must be correct. I think this is not the place to express personal opinions and you will know it better.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The issue is a lack of clarity because of your desire to merge all the facts together. You seem to be of the opinion that because some sources either now or earlier say things are working, that's the only information we should be having and the other sources are superfluous. I disagree and would instead rather have "in test1, this worked and this didn't; in test2, this got fixed and this works now; etc." That would be a clearer article instead of a constant need for a single section summarizing all the tests. It's the same logic I have to the single "Production" section. It's useless and confusing standing alone. Why not combine it with the tests to make it a full history? That's a lot more realistic anyways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Ricky, the trials in 2006 is different, it need to be separate. The whole issue center around the AUCRT trial conducted from 2007-08. What about splitting two sections into winter and summer trials. During the middle of the trials we heard about the PIB report. Except the gear box issue (which need to be included in the article-got sorted out after Renk engineers fixed it), there is no major issue. Also business-standard have mentioned another issue due to over running the specified Kilometers. Need not be considered but still let's have that info as well with the complete detail. The end was like a Bollywood film. All sorted out and Arjun completing the trials successfully. That's what the sources say. Chanakyathegreat (talk) 10:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Since Chanakyathegreat repeatedly claims that Arjun has resolved all of its problems and is now "flawless", I challenge Chanakya to list all the sources that support this claim. Chanakya please provide links to your sources below for our review. Until you provide them and until they are accepted, the current edit stands.By78 (talk) 22:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
By78, I am posting here a link[20] about the Arjun trials (the real trials not AUCRT) from atleast from 2006 onwards, the Arjun tank is performing excellently.
From the link:"Major General H.M. Singh, Additional Director in charge of trial and evaluation, said last year's user field trial report had certified that the accuracy and consistency of the weapon system was proved beyond doubt." That's the Army impressed with the Arjun excepting making comments about the Arjun tank in a positive light.
Now I ask you what link you have to provide about the Arjun's failure except the one based on the wrong PIB report. Do you have anything else? Provide the proof if you have it.
Since you have asked me to prove the success of the Arjun during the latest trial.[21] "Despite continuing criticism from the Army establishment, the Arjun has successfully completed a gruelling 5,000-kilometre summer trials in the Rajasthan desert."
Now your version is totally debunked about the Arjun failing the test but it is proved that the Arjun indeed is successful from last year onwards. You have to accept the reality, there is no other way.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 15:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
[
I'm just going to ask before I remove but does anyone feel that the sentence Currently, DRDO and the army are locked in an impasse over the future of Arjun, and consequently, the prospect of Arjun's adoption remains uncertain at this point. is pretty much unnecessarily vague? First, it's from July and I think we have newer sources, so it's a little odd. Second, the article itself describes it as "the deathknell" so saying there's an "impasse" and it remains "uncertain" seems a little out there. Third, frankly, it should be more of a "here's what the army says, here's the response from DRDO, etc." if it's really an impasse. One side saying "we are not ordering any more" seems more like a decision. I'd rather take it out and focus on historically-organized subsections. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Try Global security, they have the historical data of the Arjun tank.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 17:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone provide a source for the protracted developmental time of 36 years is due to the need of designing for the harsh operational conditions in India, the ever-changing requirements from the Army, and the lack of indigenous technological and production capacities? The article, [22], says nothing of the sort and is in fact much, much harsher about the delays and cost overruns. I'm going to work on using what it actually says. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I think one of the biggest flaws in the article was the lack of specific dates as to events. It seems that everyone was talking past each other as to how should the performance be qualified and using dates to when events and views occurred should help fix that. Chanakyathegreat, would you agree that it's better to be able to include more background information on its capabilities and what it was intended to be able to do, along with details on what issues they have had? I'm a little concerned that we don't have more about DRDO's view. Chanakya, I think that would be the best way to balance the article. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Not possible, since the recent reports are published without any timeframe and they get mixed creating problem. One guy must have published an article1. Then someone publishes article2. Another guy wakes up and sees article1, publishes it with his version. So with dates within months is not possible until specified exactly in the article. Even there confusion can arise.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 17:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
After reading the latest edit of the Arjun article, I find it concise, to the point, and much easier to read. I support the changes in format, as it is refreshing and a lot less confusing. Thanks. By78 (talk) 22:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I removed this source from the article. The website is simply a portal and not a publisher of information. It looks like a self-published source which per policy should be used only in very limited circumstances. Since the discussion about the report has another cite, there was no content change to the article. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)