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I corrected (with Link) the factual error that non-Caucasians are not admitted as members; in fact there are even BNP non-causcasian candidates. This correction has been rejected. Thus Wikipedia Mgmt are wilfully propagating False information-a message to this effect has been posted on a number of newsgroups, with the recommendation that Interested parties should not waste their time on a Propaganda vehicle, but use another Community Encyclopedia which respects the Truth. Alan Truelove 571-242-1053 (US), alan_truelove@hotmail.com. May 2, 2006. - - - - - -
If the BNP was founded in 1992, how can the current chairman have joined the party in 1989? - DrBob
Is there any historical link between the BNP and the British Union of Fascists?
It's very tenuous. Tyndall was not connected to the BUF. The link is of no more significance than the link between the labour party and communism. '80.225.73.197'
About my reversions: removing the fact that some people call the BNP far-right or Neo-Nazi is not useful. It's a fact that some people say that, whether you think so or not. Changing "race riots" to "asian riots" is also not useful - apart from anything else "race riot" is a widely used term, while "asian riot" isn't. --Camembert
that some people call them that should be mentioned, but it should suggest that they are "neo-nazi", to avoid bias. I agree with you RE riots. '80.225.73.197 '
What does "Far Right" mean any more - does it mean the economics of a free market? Or is it more authoritarian in nature? Would Adam Smith be a member of the "Far Right"?
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Is it accurate to target collapse of the Tory vote in BNP council gains? Looking at BBC figures for Burnley 2003 they BNP took 3 seats off Labour (for example).
Also surely skilled exploitation of local government corruption is also a factor?
From the text: "...Nick Griffin, joined the BNP in 1989 after spending time as an activist for the National Front while reading a Law degree at Cambridge University." Is it *reading* a Law degree, or *earning* a law degree?
I've removed the implication that anti-immigration == racism. Many parties (including the torys and David blunkett, according to what he said on the JV show today), are against immigrants "taking" jobs. (for the record I'm not). I've also removed the "overwhelming evidence" part, unless someone can provide some example of overwhelming evidence?
I've clarified that there have never been any BNP MP's. Most of their support comes from a fear of crime rather than "loss of jobs". And they do not deny being a racist party. The nastiness of their ideas is evident in the "voluntary repartiation" policy, not in their anti-immigration stance, which is mainstream. M-Henry 11:30, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
In fact a voluntary repatriation policy already exists. It is simply very poorly funded. The BNP say they will increase the funding of this. They do deny being "racist" per se, although some things they say could be construed as racism.
A BNP apologist is claiming that only extreme left-wingers describe the BNP as neo-Nazi. Please try this Google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Atelegraph.co.uk+bnp+nazi
to see the views of the Daily Telegraph, a right-wing British newspaper. -- Karada 14:47, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Please discuss material here before deleting it. To repeat:
-- Karada 15:15, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The BBC, Guardian, Observer and Daily Telegraph newspapers have described the BNP as "neo-Nazis", as has Searchlight Magazine, widely viewed as an authority on European neo-fascism. These are all mainstream, respected, sources. The fact that many left-wing sources agree with them does not detract from this. -- Karada 20:52, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
194.165.163.127 please dont insult our intelligence by claiming that "its only the far-left who try to call the BNP neo-nazis, not the mainstream" youre fooling nobody. I'm sure the Guardian/Oserver would be surprised to hear that they had "far left leanings", mildly centre-left leanings would be more like it. G-Man 22:56, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Perhaps the solution to the "neo-nazi" question is to look at parallels between the policies of the Nazi party, as exposed in Mein Kampf and the parties that are called "neo-nazi". For all I know, the BNP advocates neither the expulsion of Jews from British society, neither the military expansion of the United Kingdom at the expense of the neighbouring countries. David.Monniaux 10:53, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Could someone please give a source reference (here only) to the Nick Griffin attributed quote that "racism is a natural instinct". I sought/googled, but could not find!
-Found it. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,783675,00.html
"So when white bleeding hearts or black radicals accuse white people of being inherently racist, he is in complete accord. That's right, he says, that's perfectly natural." Observer, 1st September 2002. I'll correct the main article so it is sourced better. M-Henry 08:58, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Another good one is http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,222602,00.html - which somewhat contradicts the observer interview, showing how Nick Griffens language changes over time. I have no idea why he gives all these interviews to the Guardian/Observer when he must know they fully intend to demonise him. M-Henry 09:14, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've fleshed out the one-liner about Griffin's conviction (which wasn't factually correct in itself). Everything added is fact and in the public domain. I originally deleted the one-liner about Griffin's conviction the other day, as it is repeating what is said in Griffin's own article, but someone put it back saying it was relevant. So I decided to add details and context in this (BNP) article as well. I'd be happy to move the whole section to the Griffin article proper if people think that best. Comments welcomed. Tails 01:54, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've noticed that a lot of edits seem to have the effect of presenting things from the BNP's POV just recently. As the vast majority of UK people are anti-BNP, I find this imbalance curious. Not that I'm suspicious or anything, but I've added this article to my watchlist. -- The Anome 12:56, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I think we need to rework the wording in some parts of this article. Like it or loathe it, the BNP are a registered political party in the UK. "Opponents" of it, in a political context, customarily refers to other political parties. Neither 'Searchlight' magazine, nor the ANL/SWP are registered political parties, therefore I think they should be referred to as 'critics' or something akin to that - (non-abusive suggestions welcome).
Also, it is not factual to say that the BNP "are opposed by all of the mainstream media". Apart from the Guardian Group, it would be very difficult to say that the rest of the mainstream media has, in place, a de facto policy of opposition to the BNP. It would be fairer to say that, as far as the mainstream media is concerned, the BNP don't really feature on their radar at all. Either way, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia reporting facts, not assumptions.
Finally, stating that the BNP are opposed "by all of the mainstream political parties" is a case of stating the (proverbially) obvious! All political parties, mainstream or not, oppose all other political parties; that is the reason for their existence. Stressing the point here is silly. -- Tails 19:20, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The Anome - of course they're "united in condemnation", but again, that is stating the obvious. The BNP are standing candidates against them, splitting their previously comfortable three-way votes, and actually winning some council seats. The "mainstream" parties are hardly going to be "united in celebration", are they! It's a hell of a lot easier to simply all condemn the BNP than it is to actually answer the real reasons behind their own failure to get elected.
Going back to point I made about the "mainstream" media, much of it recently seems to be virtually neutral when reporting about the BNP. There have been very few 'attacks', as such, when the BNP have had recent election successes. Some sources even appear to be dropping the term 'far right', either using 'right wing' or no description at all. Very few outlets are using the word 'extremist'. Even fewer use the word 'racist' - and only those connected with Searchlight in some manner now describe the BNP as 'neo-nazi'. Even Gary Younge, writing in the Guardian recently - http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,1037373,00.html - only described the BNP as "rightwing"!
To summarise:
-- Tails 19:48, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
This seems to be turning into an edit war -- and it seems that Tails is going a bit overboard in an attempt to achieve "balance" and turning this into a POV article with the idea that thay may not be right-wing after all. Bcorr 00:45, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
There's a big difference from stating a neutral fact ("The BNP are from the right of the political spectrum; a non-representative minority of critics from the radical left describe the BNP as "neo-nazi" in outlook, althouh the party strongly refutes this allegation.") and twisting that facts by the use of emotive words, which are likely to bias the reader ("The BNP are a FAR RIGHT party often described as neo-NAZI by the ANTI-FASCIST magazine, searchlight"). Facts can be accurately described without resorting to such words. The only reason searchlight call themselves an "anti-fascist" magazine is so that people immediately associate anyone they criticise with fascism, whether this is justified or not. So, by using such terms, you can easily be biased in favour of such organisations.
The 'Alleged links between the BNP and neo-Nazism and racism' section is silly. It is just there to satisfy a liberal POV that insists that the BNP are neo-Nazis because they have different views to those on the left. It is guilt by association. There is no similar section within the Conservative Party article, although the same guilt could easily be shown for them. Even IDS has had talks with members of the French FN. There is no similar section within the Labour Party article, although they could easily be called Communists if guilt by association was the only proof needed. Tony Blair has shaken the hand of Gerry Adams, but nobody calls Blair a terrorist!
William Pierce may have addressed a BNP rally 8 years ago in the days of Tyndall, but Pierce is now dead and Tyndall was deposed as Chairman 4 years ago and recently expelled outright from the party. David Duke was the "National Director of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan" between 1974-78, but that particular KKK was a legal organisation and his association with it ended 23 years before he shared a platform with Griffin. Duke has also lectured at Oxford, Cambridge and Harvard universities and was elected to the House of Representatives in Louisiana! Both of these men could well be described as "White separatists", but guilt by association, especially with such a small association, is never valid and certainly, in this case, hardly grounds for branding the present day BNP as neo-Nazis.
Unless someone can say (here) why the links section should remain, I'm going to remove it soon. It is clearly not NPOV and looks more like something added to please the Wikipedia Friends of Searchlight! -- Tails 04:43, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
You didn't quite read into what I said. I acknowledged that Duke was with the KKK and that he could be described as a "White separatist". What I am trying to point out is that Duke appearing on the same platform as Griffin, once, does not banish the BNP to be known as a neo-nazi party for all time. 'Guilt by association' is not valid. If it was, then all the others who sat with Duke in the Louisiana House of Representatives, would also be classed as neo-nazis, which I doubt they were. I also pointed out how easy it would be to call the Conservatives neo-nazis and the Labour Party Communists if guilt by association is the only evidence required. They are not labelled as such though, and the BNP are entitled to the same privilege. -- Tails 05:43, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
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"Many opponents claim that it is racist, whilst some far left-wing fringe organisations go so far as to brand it fascist and/or neo-Nazi. "
No major national newpaper, broadcaster, etc. has refered to the BNP as "fascist" or "neo nazi". Only the far-left ANL do this. Hence the original statement is biased.
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"Alleged Links between the BNP and neo-Nazism"
Because these links are alleged and subjective!
Because this is utter rubbish and a downright lie. Immigrants who "didn't want to be repatriated" would remain in the county, according to BNP policy. Have a look on their website. The same applies to "non white people born in the UK", etc.
This is not relevant - of it their share of the vote will only go up in places where they stand candidates! Redundant and unnecessary.
All parties are disliked by some groups. The right wing press are " strongly disliked by liberal/left-wing sections of the population and media", and liberal/left-wing sections of the population and press are strongly disliked by right-wing sections of the press and population! Again redundant and utterly pointless.
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"The ANL is supported and part funded by Trade Union affiliations, and will usually heavily leaflet and counter-campaign in many of the right-wing party's target wards. "
Additional information, and the addition of "many of the wards" to correctly stipulate than the ANL do not leaflet all wards.
The police have also several times had to invoke exclusion zones for ANL protesters around BNP events in the interests of preventing such confrontations."
This information is both correct and relevant. 80.225.80.146 20:57, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC) (80.255)
Are the BNP a neo-Nazi Organisation?
As can be seen, I changed the title and format of the 'Alleged Links to neo-Nazism and Racism' section. I don't know if this format is acceptable in the Wikipedia environment, but I think it's better than what we had already. All the 'opponents claim'/'BNP deny' stuff is becoming very repetitive, whilst also being repetitive and, one might add, a bit repetitive. I just thought I'd try something different. The 'response' to the Combat 18 stuff is borrowed from the BBC Panorama/Searchlight programme, so it's not as though it's even a biased opinion. Please discuss the section here if you decide to revert or amend it. Thanks -- Tails 06:53, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
"A label commonly applied to the BNP is fascist and/or neo-Nazi. "
>>
"Many opponents claim that it is racist, whilst some far left-wing fringe organisations go so far as to brand it fascist and/or neo-Nazi. "
No major national newpaper, broadcaster, etc. has refered to the BNP as "fascist" or "neo nazi". Only the far-left ANL do this. Hence the original statement is biased.
>>
It is nonsense to claim that it is only the "far-left" who call the BNP "fascist" or "neo-nazi". It is in fact a widespread perception of the BNP by most of the public, you may believe that "it's only the far-left who describe them as neo-nazi but I dont think many other people would agree with you, and hence I am putting back my version.
>>>
All parties are disliked by some groups. The right wing press are " strongly disliked by liberal/left-wing sections of the population and media", and liberal/left-wing sections of the population and press are strongly disliked by right-wing sections of the press and population! Again redundant and utterly pointless.
>>
No the "opponents" section as presently written gives readers the hopelessly misleading impression that the BNP are opposed "only" by the ANL searchlight etc, which is a grotesque misrepresentation of the truth and does not reflect the widespread nature of opposition to the BNP, and the fact that the majority of the population finds them abhorent. Hence I am putting the passage back G-Man 18:10, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
FAO Tails: I'm pretty sure that the BNP now have 18 councillors, after the most recent victory in essex, and including the Luke Smith expulsion. I'll try and find a list of these people and post it here. In the meanwhile, I direct you to this recent BBC article, which states 18, and was written some time after the BBC covered the Luke Smith expulsion story. 80.255 05:16, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Most recent edit by me:
80.255 08:30, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
When you say that the Panorama programme was biased, are you saying that it is incorrect in reporting that the BNP officials it named have the criminal convictions that it alleges? -- The Anome 08:38, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I note that you are not claiming that the Panorama allegations are untrue. I also note your point that a substantial minority of the population have minor criminal convictions. Minor crimes are in general defined as crimes not considered so serious that they result in prison sentences. The Panorama listing alleges a variety of serious offences which resulted in imprisonment or suspended sentences. I very much doubt that you could show a comparable level of offending in the leadership of the mainstream Labour / Lib Dem / Conservative parties.
Please feel free to list alleged convictions on both sides: don't forget to cite references, of course. -- The Anome 10:35, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)