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"This entirely routine incident was eagerly seized upon by those wishing to denigrate the aircraft and the programme."- Is this NPOV?
Why has "problems section" been deleted on the 9 February by 83.67.58.239 ?-ODB
Adding the dates of the crashes of the development aircraft in the development timeline is not vandalism. Furthermore it is undisputed fact that one of them, DA6, crashed. Removal of a fact is vandalism, not adding the fact in the first place. -- Nick Wallis 10:50, 07 Mar 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the section on the comparison between the Typhoon and the new American fighters. Any actual assessment of their relative combat potential requires access to classified information.
Not necessarily. There is a pretty good technical study over here that takes the information that has been published, plus the author's extensive knowledge of fighter aircraft (he was a member of Australia's defence establishment with responsibilities in this area) to create a fairly complete and quite persuasive and fair overview. Eurofighter: Demon or Lemon? Conclusion? No way a Eurofighter matches an F-22 (reasonable conclusion, one even DERA came to), but it will come close to a late model F-15 (above in some areas, below in others) in an F-18 sized airframe. -- User: Joe Katzman 10:34 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)
In any case, the point is largely moot. Given the expected customers and delivery schedules of both fighters it seems unlikely they will face each other in combat, or indeed will ever go up against comparable planes. --Robert Merkel 14:15 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I've added section headings for the Typhoon, based loosely on the headings for the F-16. Robert, regarding the Typhoon's combat potential, perhaps it'd be good to include information about the DERA study. --User:Cabalamat 23:50 26 Aug 2003
I've ammended the supercruise speed to M1.3, based on information at http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html . I'm going to reword the section on Combat Performance to make it more NPOV. -- Cabalamat 16:11, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Hi User:Sugarfish, I like the new picture you put up. It shows very well how the plane looks from the top (I'm sure there's a better way to say that :-)). One thing I'm not sure about is my decision to have a separate section with pictures in it; perhaps we should revert to having the pictures alongside the text, to the right of it (making the pictures smaller might be useful in that case). Thoughts? -- Cabalamat 23:12, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
David, if you're going to add a table at the top (something which I'd prefer doing without, since it is both too complex as it stands using HTML (maybe we'll get a Wiki-markup table soon), and also IMO makes the page look unbalanced and badly laid out), please fill in the values. Don't just leave them blank. -- Cabalamat 00:31, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Its inriguing that on the RAF's website the aircraft is listed under "Offensive aircraft" with the Harrier, GR4 and Jaguar not under "Defensive aircraft" with the Sentry and F3. The RAF are really pushing the "multi-role" tag aren't they! Mark 15:29, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It's odd to start the article by saying the Typhoon is "very similar to the US-German Rockwell-MBB X-31 prototype". This seems to imply the development of the Typhoon owes something to that project, but I've never heard any evidence of that. The only major similarity is that both use canard-delta layouts, and the British had already been trying such designs in the preliminary work that led to the Typhoon even before it became a multinational project. Anyway, it's a layout that predates both aircraft. And there the similarities end. The X-31 was built specifically to investigate thrust vectoring, a technology that the Typhoon does not employ. - --Sergeirichard 15:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why was the validated and sourced reference to removal of cannon from RAF aircraft removed. --User:Nick Wallis 17:30, 06 Mar 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the Typhoon MMI why is there no mention of the planned Helmet Mounted Sight/Helmet Mounted Display or of the Direct Voice Input?
Note that I use the terms HMS and HMD very carefully to mean different things. A Helmet Mounted Display is a device which projects a display onto the helmet visor. A Helmet Mounted Sight adds head tracking to this to allow real-world stabilisation of the display and provide true target tracking capabilities.
Typhoon was proposed to have a full integrated HMS (or as Eurofigher.com call it a Helmet Mounted Symbology System) which provides:
Are these more technology items that are late? --User:Nick Wallis 11:00, 13 Mar 2006 (UTC)
The thrust to weight ratio doesn't look right. Surely it should be 120kN / 9000kg, or about 13 N/Kg? (More with reheat). Too far out of my field to correct the article personally. 194.106.59.2 17:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thrust to weight is all wrong, it should be 1.1 or better. We dont screw up the F-22A page, stop screwing the Eurofighter wiki.
Performances are all falses, This plane is 11.350t empty for the T1 alonne air to air , with 89kN engines , just get a look to RR web site!
I have no hopes about the litle brit's spinners to remove all this early DERA
Mess and actuals fantasy performances from this site, as the Corruption and Korean and sinfaporian dreams, where they was shot down by a real 21th plane , the Rafale!
I weakened the language because, obviously there is some debate about this. As presently written, the comparison section gives the impression that the eurofighter is inferior to the F/A-22. If there are some specific arguments to this effect (it is designed for a wider variety of missions that the F/A-22, it is faster than the (undeployed) F-35, whatever), they probably belong in the comparison section.
I had chosen the words quite carefully there. The F-22 should be a clearly superior fighter when it enters service, but it is not in service yet and won't be for a few months. So if you don't mind I'll change it back for now, I think the Typhoon should be allowed its moment of glory!
Sergeirichard 00:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article should really have an infobox such as used in many other aircraft articles - I can modify the Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier infobox and post it here for verification. Good idea? -Benbread 18:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Can the Eurofighter be deployed on the current british and French Aircraft carriers and if not what about the future British and French Aircraft Carriers? Since Aircraft Carriers are the major force projector in any nations military and if Eurofighter is not deployable on them shouldnt there be some mention of this serious shortcoming especially since the F-35 can and will be deployed on British Aircraft Carriers.
Secondly if the Eurofighter is not deployable on aircraft carriers i dont see the need why Britian, Germany and Spain have bought so many. Its like California purchasing fighter jets to deter Florida. Europe spends approx 1/3 on military as U.S. does and yet has a force projection much weaker than 1/3 of the U.S. Europe deploys approx 110 fighters on Carriers while the U.S. deploys approx 1000.
I can't find a couple of facts, and i'm not entirely sure on Entered Service/First Flight (for the latter i assumed the first Typoon Prototype not British Aerospace prototype)
Any suggestions, comments? -Benbread 18:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
With respect to the last edit, military project and especially planes are always years later, over budget, and take years after initial deployment to reach full capabilities (witness the F-22); in any case your claims are unsourced. --Robert Merkel 01:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Unsourced rants on what a POS the Eurofighter is will get summarily reverted. --Robert Merkel 00:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Is it just me, or is the whole start of the article a long rant about what a failure and how bad the Eurofighter is? I think that section should be reworked to a general description and overview of the fighter and the programme Itake 04:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
The article contains a new bunch of unsourced claims about how stealthy the Eurofighter is. Who is claiming that the Typhoon has 1/3 the radar signature of the Rafale? Who said that being less stealthy than the F-22 was a cost-saving measure (which doesn't entirely make sense, surely it doesn't cost anything to, for instance, go with the F-22's angled tails rather than the Typhoon's straight-up tail)? If it was some random guy on a message board, that's not a reliable source. --Robert Merkel 01:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the relevant sentence:
This information is unsourced and thus it's impossible to assess its accuracy. --Robert Merkel 04:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I have to disagree, the Typhoon has a low RCS yes, but that is only front the front, and the addition of weapons signifigantly adds to the radar signature. Does the low RCS apply only to the front on view of the craft carrying no armament? Or is it an evaluation of all direction arcs with a full combat load? I may have just come across it yet, but I have yet to see a reliable and unclassified evaluation that takes all of these factors into account. Does anyone here know of one? Klauth 04:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The actual radar cross section is of course classified, it is however set out for the RAF in SR(A)-425. According to the RAF the Eurofighter's RCS more than exceeds these requirements. More recent comments from BAE seem to indicate the radar return is around four times less than the Tornado. During a recent press event BAE Systems stated that the Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere and betters the F-22 at some angles. Although the later comment is very questionable it still indicates a real attempt to reduce the Typhoon's radar signature. This should enable a Eurofighter pilot to remain undetected by his enemy until he his significantly closer than he may otherwise be able to achieve. --80.226.190.30 17:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The Eurofighter Typhoon Page on Wikipedia needs some help with the writing. The sentances are long and you cant understand them. We need writing more like the F22 Raptor page. Sentances that are understandable to a regular reader, and even fun to read. I have started trying to change the sentences around to be more interesting. --clearfuture417
To the user(s) who continually remove Saudi Arabia from the production totals table; Saudi Arabia has agreed to purchase the Typhoon, as confirmed by the British Ministry of Defence, numerous reputable media outlets and the contractor BAE Systems e.g:
The last sentence is the important one, we don't know for sure how many they have bought. However pending further offical confirmation I believe it is acceptable to include the numbers quoted by reputable media outlets (the Financial Times via Forbes.com and The Times). It is also more correct to quote these numbers than to exlude mention of the Saudi purchase at all. Mark83 16:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The accuracy is your opinion, which you are entitled to. The FACT is there are NO official numbers released from either the UK Gov or the SA Gov. So, when there is CONTRACTED and official numbers, sure lets put 'em in.Unsigned comment by User:Superdan8
Coincidence or no coincidence, it is still not a contracted order - it is purely an Understanding. Hell, it might all change with Chirac le Worm over in Saudi this week. The official order book is without any guessing on Saudi Arabia...unless you're wanting this page to be an unofficial Eurofighter Typhoon entry...(Superdan8 16:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC))
The entire article is ripe with suggestion, loaded terminology and opinion, and few of it is labeled to indicate it as such. There is a strong bias throughout the article in favor of the Typhoon's superiority to other modern fighters (the only exception suggested is the F-22 Raptor, actually a non-concession since it suggests that the two craft are highly comparable despite the lack of any truly concrete, non-biased evidence to this claim). The best example of the opinion present in the article occurs in the 'Problems' section, where the author(s) claim that a crash due to engine trouble, later gear failiures, and lack of an automatic spin/stall recovery system in an airframe designed to be unstable are 'minor', 'political', and 'easily solved'. Furthermore, the author(s) make mistakes and inconsistencies throughout the article, such as failing to note the aircrafts cannon as 'disabled' or 'non-RAF' under armament, or failing to note that not only is it unlikely that the encounter ever happened (or that it happened in the manner suggested by the Scottsman, since 2v1 tactics in dogfighting are well established and extremely hard to defeat), but that the reference to 'The Scottsman' article is politically linked and not without bias. The Eurofighter is likely a fine aircraft, but the handling of this article does it a disservice.
I note with interest that mentions of the Singapore evaluation in the article lacked reference to one of the biggest advantages that the Typhoon and Rafale would have possibly given over the F-15, namely, the MBDA Meteor, and its immediately availability to RSAF airbases in time of war.
To be honest, while the Eagle may not be on par with its evaluation competitors in the areas of manuveurability and avionics, given the training of the RSAF pilot, it is a sufficiently capable and modern aircraft, and would prove to be an even match to the Su-30MKs being acquired by Singapore's neighbours. However, if said neighbours begin engaging RSAF aircraft with R-77 air-to-airs without prior warning, Singapore would be unable to respond immediately with AMRAAMs, since they are stored in the US and would take time to ship home.
Granted, such a scenario may seem a little ridiculous, but surely the immediate availability of BVRAAMS in RSAF airbases would have been considered in the Singapore evaluation, and thus deserve some mention, at least in terms of analysing the evaluation? --83.67.208.250 09:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello all. Am gonna start monitoring the talk page and clear it of any comments I find to be inflammatory/annoying/attacks of personal nature. Apologies for any inconvenience caused. 83.67.208.250
"...while the F-22 by comparison can supercruise rather faster with a full internal weapons load." Doesn't sound very precise... Has anyone a definitife value/source? Otherwise i'd remove that.84.155.116.121 10:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The F-22 is not slowed by the parasitic drag of external stores and so suffers little penalty when carrying internal weapons. --Mmx1 13:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah but it is also heavier, weight must equil lift which will result in drag from the wings. and besides having internal storage for wepons increases your crossectional area, increasing drag, and evern if it can super cruse faster, can it supercruse for as long? actual reference would be needed for such a claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.244.246.25 (talk • contribs)
however this is of inconsiquence, the main consticuence of drag at supersonic drag is from form drag and wave drag, (skin friction plays a small part, however coursing flow seperation, which results in fome drag) now the important charicteristic when crusing is the lift to drag ratio. this is the ratio of lift(=weight) to the drag created by the airframe to suport that. at transonic speeds the lift to drag ratio is greatly reduced due to the shock waves creating flow seperation on the wings. i dare say that carrying stores internaly for stelth reasons also reduces drag, however the assosiated increase in fusalarge size may have an adverse effect on the drag it creates, and thus the lift to drag ratio of the airframe.
I've removed the following:
Because
This term is in the opening sentence, yet is probably not familiar to many laypeople reading this article - I had to look it up to be sure. Could it be linked to a suitable explanatory article, if such exists? Loganberry (Talk) 18:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed this from the article: "The EAP and the EFA nose and canard sections resemble the MiG Ye-8 [1] of 1962". My reasoning is that one could say the same of the Rafale or the Gripen, and that the canard on the Ye-8 is unlikely to have fulfilled the same role that the Typhoon's does. It isn't clear from your reference but I'd say they're likely to have been fixed like on the Cheetah or the Kfir. In fact the ref you gave doesn't even allow me to judge the degree of the resemblence. Let's talk the matter out here, rather than revert-warring over it? --Guinnog 17:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
saying that the the Mig has Canards that looks like the Typhoons there for they are the same is like saying the Typhoon has wings, so dose a Cesna-128 there for they are based on each other, or Cows haf 4legs, so do horses, therefore Cows are Horses Richard 10:01, 31 july 2006 (BST)
You guys are really doing a good job here, so relax for amoment and check out this little fun propaganda from Royal Air Force ;-) [2] Cycling fan22 16:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I added some some technical information about the passive infrared tracking system, the voice control and the "carefree" FBW; i consider these details relevant, hope you'll agree. There are many sources but [3] and [4] should be sufficient. Cycling fan22 18:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following text from the first paragraph:
Also in Aug 2006,the BBC indicated that,reports suggest that RAF Eurofighters have flown highly successful missions against the F-22 during recent exercises in the US,and in reference to the F-22, stealth aircraft cannot carry out tight dogfight manoeuvres at high speed.
First of all I don't think the first paragraph was the best place for it, secondly I doubt the statement stealth aircraft cannot carry out tight dogfight manoeuvres at high speed. I don't think an aircraft's stealthiness is directly linked to its manoeuverability at any speed. I contacted the BBC about this when I read it in their original article and asked them where they had got the information from. They could not provide a source for the information and eventually agreed that it should be taken out of the article. Although the article from which the quote is taken appeared at the time of the Saudi order, the part about manoeuverability was actually written a few years ago.Mumby 10:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Seems that according to reports at end of October 2006 that Turkish AF prefers the JSF (more fool them). It is for the NATO nation’s 15-year, $10 billion program to buy about 100 new-generation fighter aircraft, Turkish procurement and military officials said. Selection process had narrowed down to a choice between buying all JSFs and a mixed buy of the JSF and the Typhoon. But the Air Force, whose fighter fleet is exclusively of U.S. design and which follows a strong American tradition, has opted for an all-JSF solution, the officials said.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2306905&C=europe
81.86.144.210 08:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Typhoon has suffered very large cost increases has been changed to Typhoon has suffered large cost increases.
Can the increase from £7 billion to £19 billion not be described as "very large"? It is misleading to describe it as anything else: it is truly "very large" in both percentage and overall terms - the increase is a little larger than India's entire annual military spend for example. Just to use "large" on its own is POV. Mark83 mentions Wikipedia:Words to avoid, which I had a good look at, and I also checked on Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. There is no reason why the reasons for the increase cannot be discussed - indeed they would be a helpful addition. Any other views? Springnuts 12:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
is anthropomorphism, so the entire sentence needs a re-write. Something along the lines of : "The cost of the Eurofighter project has increased from £7 billion to £19 billion", I think that is also better with respect to NPOV.Mumby 13:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Typhoon has suffered..
Looks better to me. I hope between us we can expand this section on a classic piece of UK defence procurement! However, this now begs a question: If we want to write about cost increases to the UK jets only, should that not go on the page for the UK jets (RAF Typhoon F2)? In the talk page for that article I have suggested the possibilty of a merge with this article, no replies so far. Any opinions? Mumby 21:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
No mention of the AMRAAM-D which will enter service a full two years before the Meteor? How passive, "current AMRAAM", Hmm.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by West Point MP (talk • contribs)
In November the news media were reporting troubles with the Saudis over some slush fund investigation. Some mooted the possibility of it impacting the Eurofighter deal. For example,
"Reports last weekend suggested officials within the Saudi Arabian defence ministry were threatening to withdraw from the Eurofighter deal unless the UK Government intervened to end the investigation".
See:
http://www.lep.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=73&ArticleID=1893789
Royzee 10:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a strong implication in some of the BBC reports that the Saudi Eurofighter purchase was a result of bribes offered to certain Saudi officials. Should that be noted? The publicity might end up dooming the deal. (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6193703.stm). Epstein's Mother 22:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I take your point about the POV, but I seriously doubt the end of the SFO inquiry ends the threat. All you need is a few names to be named, either as a result of press inquiries or other governments, and suddenly you have another Lockheed scandal. The OECD anti-bribery convention comes into play and BAE is also traded in the United States and therefore subject to SEC investigations for FCPA violations. Finally, this wouldn't be the first time that bribery allegations have sunk an aircraft deal where the Saudis are concerned (for example, the 1994 Airbus deal recently described in the Economist http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1842124) Epstein's Mother 10:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
In November the news media were reporting Eurofighter consortium was not "fit for purpose" in providing crucial support for the aircraft and needs to be restructured, according to the government.
Seems while Typhoon is liked by pilots, the UK MoD wants to modify it for ground attacks [the inevitable fate of all 'air superiority jets such as F16, F15 etc] and the consortium was dragging its feet. The RAF has retired the Jaguar prematurely but has Tornado IDS however it perceives a shortfall in capability drawing some criticism.
See: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15870468/
Royzee 10:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I realized afterwards why this material was changed (to link to the new article). However, I believe Mark83's paragraph stated the issue very concisely, with citations, and therefore merit's being retained. In addition, the Serious Fraud Office investigation into the Al Yamamah corruption allegations article is fairly short, and as the issue is seemingly closed, should probably be put back in the Al Yamamah article. As it stands, the new article is a likely candidate for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. - BillCJ 15:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The rest of this discussion quickly centred around the Al Yamamah article so I've transferred it to Talk:Al Yamamah. Mark83 21:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The beginning of the article states
the aircraft has formally entered service with the Italian Air Force and with the Spanish Air Force.
But hasn't he jet formally entered service with all partner nations? I thought that the in-service-date was defined as the day on which the first jet was delivered. Since all partner nations have had at least some jets delievered, is it not 'in service' with them all? Perhaps there is some confusion between in service and operational status?Mumby 15:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Saw this in a Spanish newspaper - New Eurofighter used to protect Seville airspace during NATO summit Thu, 08 Feb 2007 "The new C-16 Eurofighter (EF-200) is being used for the very first time to patrol the airspace above Seville where an informal NATO summit got underway on Thursday. The planes are part of wide security measures in the city for the summit." See: http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_8831.shtml
Royzee 16:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone added a couple of "citation needed" to the "combat performance"-section, and was right to do so. But when i added another "citation needed" to the statement "...while the F-22 by comparison can supercruise rather faster with a full internal weapons load" it was immediatly removed - i don't see why. Do we have a source how fast the one can supercruise and how fast the other? Leclerq 13:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
is expected to be declared ... 2006 should be somehow changed as 2006 is over. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ThurnerRupert (talk • contribs) 18:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
An anonymous user with IP 209.2.30.98 kept changing the similar aircrafts from F-22 Raptor, Sukhoi Su-35, Mikoyan Project 1.44 to F-15E, F-16, F-18E. This was reverted three times by user BillCJ. - From my point of view and based on all that I read, the similarity with the F-15, F-16 and F-18 is not accurate, but I'm not at all an expert. Can we have a discussion here to come to a consensus, before we are about to trigger an edit war? - Cheers, MikeZ 08:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
DID's words not mine in their analysis of the current fighter market. Notice, no mention of the F-22.
"Meanwhile, both the Russian SU-27/30 family (Russia, China, India, Malaysia, Vietnam, et. al.), and the EADS Eurofighter (Austria, Britain, Italy, Germany, Spain) offer stiff competition and loyal customer bases in the realm of 4th generation aircraft. The F-15 Strike Eagle is also emerging as a strong export competitor in this realm (USA, Israel, Korea, Singapore), which is particularly bad news for Dassault given its compatibility with widely-used American munitions, targeting pods, communications systems, etc."
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/09/singapores-rsaf-decides-to-fly-like-an-eagle/index.php
Code One Magazine. Notice names are named and numbers are given. Not rumor, not unnamed sources. "Achieving nine aerial victories on a single mission qualifies for bragging rights in any fighter pilot circle even if those victories occur in simulated Red/Blue engagements. An F-22 pilot from the 27th Fighter Squadron from Langley AFB, Virginia, accomplished that very feat in June at Northern Edge exercises in Alaska. Six AMRAAMs, two Sidewinders, and one burst of rounds from a Gatling gun account for the total."
"The nine-kill mission may get a lot of exposure," says Lt. Col. Wade Tolliver, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron. "Was it cool? Yes. But working with F-15s and F-18s to produce a kill ratio of eighty-three to one that day was way cooler."
"Tolliver's opinions are backed by additional statistics. On one particular mission, though comprising just thirty-three percent of the total Blue air-to-air forces, F-22s managed to eliminate sixty-six percent of the threats. The aerial victory ratio for the Raptor in the first week of the exercise alone was 144-to-zero losses."
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2006/articles/jul_06/alaska/index.html
Read all about how there is no other comparable aircraft to the Raptor
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/08/david-axes-f22-series-raptor-or-turkey/index.php
No comparison. There is nothing on the EF now or planned that makes it anything more than a modern 4th generation jet. I think far too much of this entry is based on marketing hype and not enough on facts. It is articles like this that give wiki a bad name amongst serious researchers.
If this is not enough let me know. There are plenty of fact out there. You do not always have to believe the marketing hype. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.57.85 (talk • contribs)
As for my identity, what does it matter. I am not claiming to be anyone in particular. I am not saying I am in any position to have any inside information, and I am only one person.
As if most of this entry was'nt taken straight from the official EF website? The difference is that I cited direct quotations from real people who can be verified to have actually flown the jet and know what they are talking about. But if that little subtelty escapes you, how about a few more tidbits from other sources.
Angus Huston, the former head of the Royal Australian Air Force, said in 2004 that the "F-22 will be the most outstanding fighter plane ever built."
"Strategic Insight 9 - Is the JSF good enough?." Houston, A. Australian Strategic Policy Institute. Canberra. 18 August 2004.
This one even comes from wiki with citations. Notice what he says at the end. They are designed for different levels of performance.
“In March 2005, United States Air Force Chief of Staff General John P. Jumper, then the only person to have flown both the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Raptor, gave a verbal comparison on the two aircraft. He said that "the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F-22 Raptor." "They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor Underlying citation - "CSAF: Raptor, Eurofighter complementary." Lopez, C. T. Air Force Print News. 22 March 2005.
More wicki. This one actually shows how not only is the F-22 dominant, it's combination of systems, speed and stealth make it a true force multiplier which enables other type AC to be more effective. Again from wiki with supporting citations.
“In June 2006 during Exercise Northern Edge (Alaska's largest joint military training exercise), the F-22A achieved a 144-to-zero kill-to-loss ratio against F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s simulating MiG-29 'Fulcrums', Su-30 'Flankers', and other current front line Russian aircraft, which outnumbered the F-22A 4 to 1 at times.[5][24] The small F-22 force of 12 aircraft generated 49% of the total kills for the exercise, and operated with an unprecedented reliability rate of 97%.[11]”
As for Mark83's "an extraordinary statement given the lack of references and the fact that the US aircraft mentioned do not have access to a missile in the Meteor class."
The Meteor is just now undergoing flight testing ands is not due in production until the 2010 time frame. In contrast the AIM-120D version of the slammer is being deployed in the fleet this fall. It features twice the range of the C7 (comparable to Meteor), a two way datalink and better jam resistance. In other words F-18E/F outranges today's Eurofighter.
Lastly Bill, take me seriously or not. The facts speak for themselves. Perhaps you should be a bit less concerned about the debating procedures and a bit more concerned about accuracy.
You can email me at wikimail3181@yahoo.com. Who knows, I may even reply.
"As for sources/accuracy. I note you did not address the fact that you are basing much of your argument on Lockheed Martin authored material" Mark83
I cited Code One once and it was a direct quote from a named person who is a position to know the facts. But if that bothers you soo much how about the following from Flightglobal.
"In Alaska, the F-22 achieved an unprecedented 144:0 kill ratio in the first week of Northern Edge. "In the first week of the fight, the preponderance of engagements were beyond visual range. In the second week they got into the merge and took a couple of shots," says Lawson, pointing out that the pilots averaged less than 100h on the aircraft. The final tally was 80:1."
"In general, compared to the last several Red Flag exercises that did not include F-22s in the blue air force mix, the overall blue air package was more than twice as effective," says the USAF."
"Notwithstanding these early demonstrations of its "see first, shoot first" lethality, Raptor tactics are still in their infancy. One discovery during Northern Edge, Lawson says, was the pilot's ability to use the F-22's "incredible situational awareness" to act as a forward air controller (FAC), co-ordinating other aircraft.
The four aircraft in an F-22 formation are connected by an intraflight datalink, allowing each pilot to see a picture of the battle generated by all four sets of radar and sensors.
After expending its weapons, Lawson says, the F-22 was able to stay in the fight and act in a co-ordinating role using this four-ship "God's eye view"."
All the above from http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/06/05/214343/export-ready-the-f-22.html
I am not saying EF is not good. It is and it will get better. It is not nor are there any other planes flying in the same class as the Raptor. EF is a 4th generation AC and is comparable to other top of the line AC of similar capability. The F-15, F-18E/F and F-16 blk 60 all have an AESA radar and fire the AIM120D. That is the big difference and that will change but so will the teen series fighter's capabilites as well. They all have or will have HOBS, they all have or will have a data link, they all have or will have an IR targeting system, etc. The Eagle is comparable in performance in most flight regimes and has a higher top speed and more combat persistance (more range). F-18EF has all the toys and can point better, etc.
I think the F-22 comparison, 1.44, and SU-35 should all be removed and the teen series stay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.57.85 (talk • contribs)
I am removing the disputed accuracy label. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.57.85 (talk • contribs)
The only time anyone chimes in is when the disputed tag is removed. It has been up for several days now and no one has come up with any argument, article or other evidence that the updated similar aircraft list is innacurate. I removing the dispute tag. Cheers!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.23.29 (talk • contribs)
The F-22 Raptor at least should be in the compareable aircraft list. It was developed roughly in the same timeframe as the Typhoon with the same goal. To counter the next generation soviet jet fighters.
F-22:
1981 November - Air Force identifies need for advanced tactical fighter to replace the F-15
1986 October - Lockheed is one of two contractors selected to compete in the demonstration/validation phase of the advanced tactical fighter program. Lockheed is to build two YF-22A prototypes
1986 October 13 - Teaming Agreement signed as Lockheed, Boeing and General Dynamics agree to compete as a team.
1990 August 28 - The YF-22A is unveiled in ceremonies at Lockheed Plant 10 in Palmdale.
1997 April 9 - Aircraft 4001 is publicly unveiled in rollout ceremonies at Marietta.
1997 September 7- Chief Test Pilot Paul Metz made the first flight of an EMD F-22 from Marietta, Ga.
2003 January Raptor 00-012, the first F/A-22 to be delivered directly to the command
EF:
1983 The UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain launch Future European Fighter Aircraft (F/EFA) programme.
1986 June - Eurofighter GmbH established.
1988 November 23 - Contracts signed for production of demonstrator engines and airframes
1994 March 27 - Maiden flight of first development aircraft, DA1
2002 April 5 - Instrumented Production Aircraft (IPA2) makes maiden flight from Turin.
2003 February 13 - First Series Production Aircraft, GT001213.157.1.138 15:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Raptor meets or exceeds just about every capability of the EF. Further it has a significant A2G capability from the start. An AESA radar from the start. Depending on who you read it has a RCS anywhere between a marble and a crow.It has thrust vectoring. It can carry 8 AAMs internally. It can carry 2000 (8 GPU guided SDBs) pounds of A2G ordinance internally. Unlike EF it's supercruise capability is not marginal. It is in a different weight (greater range and combat persistance) class ...... etc.
EF is a fine 4th gen AC. If the AESA radar and meteor missile turn out okay It will be a potent A2A platform in a few years. There is more to comparable AC than timeframe. Comparing Raptor to EF is doing Wicki a disservice.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.23.29 (talk • contribs)
Relative performance of both planes is completly irrelevant in this context. Nobody doubts that the F-22 is considerable more cappable than the Typhoon, but so is the price. Fact is that both are contemporary aircraft, designed for the same mission, to counter the same threats. This section should list other planes in the same category to show users what is available in the world today, not compare the relative perfomance of them. Especially since there is a whole article dedicated to discuss the differences in the various designs and their performance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_21st_century_fighter_aircraft
All considerations what plane offers the best performance and "bang for the buck" should go there.130.83.243.155 08:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
First off the section title is innaccurate and misleading. The EF has never been in combat. The F-15 story has been proven false. F-15s do not operate in the area. None of the pilots (including the EF pilot)or anyone else who would know (like ATC) has come forward to corroborate the story. Even if the story is true, it proves nothing since the way the encouter was described would neve happen in actual combat. The "attack" as described had the F-15s rolling on the EFs six. Why wait for a radar lock when you can fire off a heater or cannon if close enough. But that also brings up another point if the EF is so good how come those F-15s where able to sneak up on it? Lastly, the encounter allegedly involved F-15Es. These are the attack versions of the AC. Their aircrew do not train as much in A2A as the dedicated F-15C pilots do.
As for "It is generally agreed that the Eurofighter Typhoon's performance is significantly better than that of the F-15C/D, the current air superiority fighter variant of the F-15.". The only place I have ever saw that statement is in Wiki. In fact a comparison of the stats of the two ACindicates that the EF has the advantage in some areas and the F-15 in others.
Many high performance jets are capable of "cruising" above the speed of sound without AB. The question is how fast, how far, what configuration and how high? It has never been an issue in the past since the capability was nver tactically significant. The reason why it is highlighted in the Raptor is because it can do it in a wide altitude band at a speed and for a distance that is useful. There are no credible sources that claim the numbers that would indicate that EF can do so also. The BAE, EADS, Alenia and Eurojet websites only make passing reference and nowhere do they claim M1.5. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.57.85 (talk • contribs)
Just a point of clarification about F-15Es from the unsigned comment above, the F-15E is based in Britain and regularly use the same bits of sky as the Typhoon. Another quote was But that also brings up another point if the EF is so good how come those F-15s where able to sneak up on it? - the Case White Typhoons were the first aircraft in-service and were being used for crew familarisation, no need for it hide or act defensively - it probably wanted some trade to play with!. Not sure if the story is true or not but just wanted to be clear on thse points. MilborneOne 12:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the disputed paragraphs in this section. I have not been able to any reliable source for any of it.In fact many of the claims are refuted or never mentioned in anything I have found.
The F-15 story is irrelevant for all the reasons as described above. Further it is heresay, it names no names and quotes no one. A claim like that needs a bit more proof in order for it to pass as fact.In short no one has been able to provide valid citations for any of these claims.
The EF is a top notch plane. Wiki should do it justice by providing facts rather than conjecture and rumor.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.57.85 (talk • contribs)
It is. I agree there's dubious statements in there. But give the tags a chance to do their thing. It'd help to describe changes/removals before doing them. FYI, I believe these are the main paragraphs that are in dispute.
These need another reference to confirm the first and reference(s) for the second. -Fnlayson 01:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually the DERA statment needs both a citation and some sort of explanation that it took place over 10 years ago and as with any model the outcome very much depends on the input. While not much has been released about the particulars of DERA we do know that things such as HOBS, AESA, and longer range AIM-120s where not taken into account. Further both the Superhornet and the Raptor where very much prototypes so not much was known about them at the time. In short, mention it, cite it, but it does need to be qualified.
The F-15 incident (if it actually happened) is irrelevant. In real life if two fighters bounce another one from behind they are not going to wait to get missile lock for a slammer. They are going to fire a heater right up his tailpipe long before the enemy knows they are back there. In other words, if too fighters get the drop on you from behind the battle is already lost. Further they said they where F-15Es. Their primary job is moving mud, not shooting down the enemy. Anyway, it needs a better citation than one that uses heresay.
Lastly the supercruise part is a bit of a reach. Most highperformance AC could/can "supercruise" for a short period of time. The only reason why it is mentioned with the Raptor is that it does it fast enough and for a long enough time with a full warload for it to be tactically significant. No other AC including EF can do that. Plus again, the statement is inaccurate in terms of numbers and it needs citations.
All three of these entries should either be struck or modified and citations provided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.23.29 (talk • contribs)
http://www.eurofighter.at/austria/td_lu.asp 213.157.11.67 16:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually it says that M1.5 is possible. That's different than doing it. It's "possible" I could become a multimillionaire. Possible but not there yet.
It does not say for how long and it does not specify configuration. I could not find the same in the second "official" Eurofighter link given by Fnlayson and that is the actual official website for Eurofighter, not the Austrian one. Further one has to wonder what other "facts" the aAustrian site is using considering the following laughable claim they make "Owing to its extreme agility in the supersonic range the Eurofighter is superior to all comparable types of aircraft with BVR employments."
So lets cut the bullshit and stick to facts.
The Austrian Eurofighter page is maintained exactly by the same Eurofighter GmbH as their english page:
http://www.eurofighter.at/terms.asp
You can't claim that one company webside is more or less official than another one without any evidence only because it does not agree with your personal views.130.83.243.156 07:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Where are these facts you speak of? Not one is sourced. The F-15 incident is irrelevant, the source (unnamed) is suspect, and the story (first person account) has not been found anywhere else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.59.228 (talk • contribs)
I've always thought that supercruise was a pretty unique thing...this article states that many aircraft can do it...which ones make up this quantity of many?
Can contributors please sign comments as it make is easier to see who is commenting to what, thank you. MilborneOne 21:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Should we add Maverick to the list of A2G Weapons? Bumper12 13:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Eurofighter was specified with a Forward Looking Infra Red System. Where is this? It is not mentioned as part of the Tranche 2 upgrade (RAF Typhoon page). How can people claim the aircraft has sensor fusion when it only has one main sensor (radar)?
Where is the Helmet Mounted Display and Sight? Again this is not mentioned as part of Tranche 2 capability. So when is this capability going to be delivered?
When will the Air Forces get the capability they paid for? Why do the partner nations let NETMA and the Eurofighter Partner companies get away with not delivering contracted capability? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.48.150.163 (talk • contribs)
In early August came reports that German Chancellor Angela Merkel was saying possible procurement by Greece of Eurofighter, a deal that is worth 5 billion euros. See: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/news/article_1332627.php/Merkel_optimistic_about_Greek_procurement_of_Eurofighter__1st_Lead_ Caution though, in March 2000 Greece said it would order 60 Eurofighters for approximately 5 billion euros but within a year cancelled.
The "See also" section at the bottom of the article lists "4th generation jet fighter," but the link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_generation_jet_fighter, lists the Eurofighter Typhoon as a 5th generation jet fighter. My impression is that the Eurofighter Typhoon is a 4 or 4.5 generation jet fighter, not 5. This needs to be cleared up and the references standardized. - MSTCrow 21:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
In the hopes (however forlorn) of ending the frequent edit wars and debates on whether the Typhoon is or is not “5th-generation”, here are a variety of authoritative sources saying that it is “4th-generation” or “Generation 4.5”.
Many more can be found, and I have little doubt that if someone were to broadly survey what has been written on the subject, “5th-generation” would rank extremely low. I don’t say this out of any desire to disparage the Typhoon – it’s a superb airplane – but general usage deems it to be the most advanced 4th-generation fighter (in that small category of elite, top-of-the-art 4th-generation designs referred to as “Generation 4.5”). It is widely reported to be the most advanced aircraft extant, second only to the F-22, and possibly outperforming the latter in some areas. We ought to be able to just write a fine article on the Typhoon's own merits. What "generation" an aircraft is will never win a dogfight. Askari Mark (Talk) 23:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I've put in a little detail about the different blocks. I think the article could do with some more information about the tranches and blocks, detailing how they were improved over each other. Pages like F-16 have useful sub-sections dealing with the features of the various blocks. Of course more detail can be put at Eurofighter Typhoon variants, but this article still needs more information - the section is too short at the moment. John Smith's 14:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I've archived the previous discussions due to page size. Since it's the first archive I thought it would be helpful to explain. The archives are accessible via the box to the right. Mark83 13:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
So now people can come in and add in what we had already discussed? There was absolutely no reason to archive it other than the fact that the discussion on comparable AC and the F-15 incident did not go your way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.155.140.48 (talk • contribs)
This makes sense - will you also be archiving the discussion about the archiving? Tee hee! 81.86.144.210 08:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC) Royzee
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/752/efraptorrw1.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.42.115.192 (talk) 10:04, August 24, 2007 (UTC)
Does it matter It could be photo shopped or it could be at an airfield out west.
- Its not photoshopped and it is the airforce field refered to "NAS China Lake" in California. 100% sure and if you go to this page you will see the Typhoon take of from "NAS China Lake", so your claim thats its an airfield out west dont work either [6]--Financialmodel 12:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to discuss about supercruise speed. As I read in Czech magazine Aviation and Astronautics (Letectvi a kosmonautika 8/2007), the Typhoon has about Mach 1.6 supercruise speed. It was measured on preproduction plane with four AIM-120 Amraams and two some kind of short range missiles. This configuration has been mentioned as clean or chase configuration. Liborc 19:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The actual operators, not the manufacturers or the industry commentators say M1.2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.18.6.56 (talk) 00:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
There's been increased media reporting on the Saudi deal being finalised very soon - keep a look out for official confirmation in the coming weeks. But when adding the news in, please change ALL references to the Saudi deal and use full citations. John Smith's 21:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)