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Hi. Just to point out that on both my mac and pc the formation boxes seem all out of position. Would it be just my computers, or is there another way to fix it? I also have this feeling that this article needs a bit of a clean up.
Also I'm wondering a bit about the removal of the Metodo formation. That was a classic formation which did win world cups, and is better described as a 2-3-2-3 formation.
Has this been mistakenly removed by putting in the 4-2-4 formation?\
Comments? - Master Of Ninja 19:30, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
The parts about formations being 'attacking' or 'defensive' should be removed as the formations themselves do not decide this, rather how they are deployed in terms of tactics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.184.50 (talk) 23:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi. Just to start a discussion for the 'teams that use this formation' part of each individual formation. Its listing teams which play the formation, which is OK for when the article is started, but I think we need a discussion of what goes in there. I can foresee that it becomes like the local derby section in football culture where people want to shove derbies in there, and not into the main local derby article. I think we should only put important teams who have won a major competition as each example, plus the season that they succesfully used the formation. Limiting each formation to three examples would keep the article fairly streamlined. Comments? - Master Of Ninja 05:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I've added the 1934 Italian team but I am not sure which forwards were pulled back to help the halfbacks. I'll try to check that but maybe someone can do it faster than me.--Nabla 21:49, 2005 May 30 (UTC)
Hi. I was wondering if someone can help me with the most recent changes to the 4-2-4 formation. Most sources (including the FIFA would cup site) reckon that it was a Hungarian influence, namely Bela Guttman, that helped spur the formation of the 4-2-4. The new text reflects the influence of Flávio Costa in the creation of this - is there a reference for this? It would be quite important, but it goes against all the reading on the topic I've done so far. Guttman did take over Sao Paolo in the mid-1950s when the 4-2-4 was starting to be used. - Master Of Ninja 23:04, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On the same topic, I've removed the sentence saying "It has been said that one of the aims of the formation was to score more goals than were conceded", since it's obvious and redundant, that being the aim of the entire sport. Guildenstern42
I remember 4-2-4 being used by 'route one' teams, ie, a goalkeeper and defenders who would kick long for big strikers who were strong in the air. Wimbledon played this way in the English First Division in the 1980s. It worked well for players who were strong but not as skilful as their peers. Was this tactic more widespread? If so, might be worth adding to the article. The Angel of Islington 22:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
According to my research, 2-3-5 arrived somewhat earlier than the article claims. Sheffield Wednesday were using the third half-back as early as 1880 (FA Cup match vs. Blackburn Rovers 18/12/1880 (source: Sheffield Daily Telegraph 20/12/1880). Blackburn Rovers were to stick to 2-2-6 longer than most. It was actually Rovers' rivals, Blackburn Olympic, who used 2-3-5 from November 1881 (source: Blackburn Standard 19/11/1881), and it was this team that won the FA Cup with such a formation in 1883. 1-2-7 was used by Notts Forest in October 1881. (Source: Nottingham Evening Post 17/10/1881)
I have made copious notes from newspapers of the time. An example of the "exact wording" you are asking for may be found in the Accrington Times of Dec 24th 1881, thus:
Teams:- Olympic: Hacking, goal; Suter and Warburton, backs; Gibson, Brown and Astley, half-backs; Wensley, Yates, Marchbank, Matthews, and Cunliffe, forwards
This is the match Blackburn Olympic vs. Accrington played Tues 20th Dec., 1881
It's well known that Olympic used a 2-3-5 when winning the 1883 Cup Final against Old Etonians (take your pick of sources for that one). To suggest that Blackburn Rovers (or Preston North End) started 2-3-5 in 1884 is I'm afraid a nonsense.
Hello again. I've spent some time researching 2-3-5 around 1880, and have unearthed the following: The Sheffield Wednesday team I mention above was given in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph on Monday 20th December 1880 as:
W. H. Stacey, goal; T. Buttery and E. Buttery, backs; J. Hunter, J. Hudson, and A. Malpas, half-backs; W. Mosforth and H. Newbold, left wing; J. J. Lang and H. Winterbottom, right wing; R. gregson, centre.
So two backs, three half-backs and five attackers - looks like 2-3-5 to me. What do you think? I've also found reference to three half-backs used in a Macclesfield team in November 1879. The Macclesfield Courier, 8th November refers to the half-back trio of Harrop, Bancroft and Warren. (The team list gives two defenders and five attackers as well.) You've compiled a great article for the most part: interesting, informative and useful. I make no apologies for finding fault with the pre-1890 section. I'll keep you posted.
Since my corrections to the sections on early team formations have been deleted, I have come to the conclusion that whoever is writing this article isn't interested in historical fact, but in perpetuating inaccuracies is only doing this as an ego thing. I have supplied primary sources for my corrections, having gone to a lot of trouble to seek them out. Obviously this article isn't worth the bother. I won't disturb your cosy corner again.
There's another error: it was the full-backs' job to mark the wingers, not the inside men. The half-backs had the remit to patrol the inside forwards. Having played in the system myself around 1960, I know whereof I speak!
That is all.
Right/Left sided midfielders are different from wingers. Chelsea use wingers as they play almost level with the main striker. In a 4-4-2 they are not as advanced.Oscar86 16:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I have to ask about this. I have never heard of "tight diamond' being used as a name for a common formation. It seems to be a variation of the diamond which falls under the main section rather than meriting a section of its own. I personally think it is suspiciouly close to original material, and am not quite sure of using wikipedia to 'spread' (for lack of a better term) new names for formation systems. Any comments? - Master Of Ninja 00:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
In a diamond the play is through the centre. There are no side midfielders as the width comes from the fullbacks.Oscar86 16:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. The 4-2-4 section has a reference to the ideas published in O Cruzeiro - does anyone know how to find an actual cite or copy of the publication? - Master Of Ninja 18:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is a mess and mostly because of the "teams that used" sections. It's totally arbitrary. The whole team should NOT be listed as is the case for Chelsea and Man Utd. Then for example in the "4-4-2 diamond" section there is a bit abou the Argentina team that lists Ronaldinho, Zidana etc. Last time I looked they weren't Argentine. In the "4-4-1-1" section the whole Italy team is listed, again a poor idea, but this time it's even worse because most of the links are broken! 3-4-3 AC Milan actually played with only 3 defenders?! I find that very hard to believe. Both the 3-4-3 and 3-5-2 sections seem to mistake themselves for 5-2-3 and 5-3-2, e.g. Brazil 2002 Cafu and Carlos are wingbacks at best, no way are they wingers. 3-5-2 differs from the classical 3-5-2?!! aLii 23:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
AC Milan did win a Scudetto under Alberto Zaccheroni playing a 3-4-3, to think an Italian team would not play with 3 defenders is outdated. Learn some Serie A history before making comments.
There should really be some more about the 442 formation... I think maybe 50% or more of all teams use this formation, and it is only mentioned as a minor part... It is like the 4-3 formation in Amarican Football... It is the most fundamental formation in football... And there should not be so much about 4 and 5 striker formations... You never see 4 and 5 striker formations... This article looks like it's written by someone who have never seen football...
There is certainly much more to talk about in reference to 4-4-2. How about the 4-4-2 with libero? Not a single scheme shows a libero present. I know that today very few teams even have a quality central defender, which might serve as a defender. But, in the past, libero in a 4-4-2 formation was commonplace. Examples: Dynamo Kyiv, 1975 UEFA Cup Winners Cup, 1975 UEFA SuperCup, 1986 UEFA Cup Winners Cup winners, USSR 1988 UEFA European Championships runner-ups, etc. Not a single word about the "with libero" variations? Goliath74 (talk) 14:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The section on the "the pyramid" (2-3-5) being the source of numbering schemes is very unclear. What does make sense is 2-3-5 as the source of somewhat old-fashioned names for positions, which otherwise don't really tally with 4-4-2 or most modern formations, that is: right back, left back; right half, centre half, left half; right wing, inside right, centre forward, inside left, left wing. But just numbering those in that order doesn't give the scheme that's in the article at present, at least without specifying the mapping between original positions and more recent ones. If anyone has ideas on how to improve this, please do, otherwise I'll try some semi-Brownian permutations in a while. Alai 20:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem a bit rude, but as an Englishman I have never heard the name flat-back four used to describe a 4-4-2, if at all. Zoanthrope 13:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Its miss used in the article, a flat back four is used to donate any back four that contains 4 defenders playing in a flat line (i.e no sweeper) not the formation 4-4-2
The result of the proposal was move to Formation (association football)--Lox (t,c) 17:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Formation (football) → Formation (Association Football)- The move would be in-line with the recent moving of the page Football (soccer) to Association Football.--Lucy-marie (talk) 11:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
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. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.In the 1880 Glasgow Charity Cup Final (08/05/1880) both Queen's Park and Rangers lined up in the 2-3-5 formation. The newspaper records the line up of both teams precisely, as follows,
Teams:- Queen's Park - A.Gough, goal; W.S.Somers and R.W.Neill (captain), backs; A.Watson, C.Campbell and D.Davidson, half-backs; T.C.Hignet, E.Fraser, G.Ker, J.Smith, and J.Kay, forwards. Rangers - G.Gillespie, goal; A.Vallance and T.Vallance (captain), backs; A.Kennedy, H.M'Intyre, and J.Drinnan, half-backs; D.Hill, M.M'Neil, W.Struthers, W.Pringle, and A.Steel, forwards.
The game finished in a 1-1 draw. An interesting reference is given to the five Rangers players making up the back line,
Playing well together in the front, the Queen's Park kept the opposition fully employed. Time after time Kennedy, Drinnan, M'Intyre, and the two Vallances interposed at critical moments, and repeatedly prevented the downfall of the colours.
Hugh McIntyre of Rangers would later become a star player with Blackburn Rovers while Andrew Watson, the world's first black football internationalist, would captain Scotland to a 6-1 victory over England at the Oval. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.133.21.110 (talk) 12:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This was actually originally used by Palmeiras against Man United in the 1999 Intercontinental Cup match. There was an article in World Soccer magazine c.2005-06 where Alex Ferguson is asked about the formation, but it doesn't seem to be up online anywhere. It certainly pre-dates the Roma match, but Ferguson did say how he could see more and more teams using it. Obviously Roma did, and then he himself did. If anyone can find the source please put it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.213.36 (talk) 03:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Where is it? This is the most common formation in Brazilian football but it is completely absent from this article. What makes this worse is that I am sure it used to be here and some ignorant person must have removed it. Misodoctakleidist (talk) 14:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes!!! I know you Yanks are a bit annoyed that you have to fly back homeward now, but well ... the formation of your opponents was VERY interesting in the round of sixteen on Saturday 26, 2010! The Ghana team used a 3-6-1 (in detail:3-2-2-2-1)! So it's not - as the article denotes - a rare formation with practically no importance, but rather some sort of "winning ticket" as seen by a number of coaches! Since - as apparently correct - hardly anyone uses this formation. -andy 92.229.181.68 (talk) 22:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Is it just me or are we mis-naming formations of the last two years in attempt to keep the "modern" names? the Spain side that won Euro 2008 and WC 2010 played with two "full backs" (Pique and Puyol), four "half backs" (Ramos, Busquets, (Alonso), Capdevilla) - Alonso may be a little more advanced, four "forwards" (Iniesta, Xavi, Torres and Villa). The Dutch, Germany, and Brazil all played a similar formations.
Looking at the last three Champions league finals I would say that the following formations were used: 2010 - Inter 2-4-1-3, Bayern 2-6-2 (2-4-4 depending on where we put wingers) 2009 - Barca 2-5-3 (Puyol didn't do a lot of defending so I'm counting him as a "half back"), Man Utd 4-3-3 (debate Evra) 2008 - Man Utd 2-5-3, Chelsea 2-5-3.
Essentially what I am suggesting is that Modern football teams defend with two centre-backs and one or two deep midfielders. Left and right backs are currently more attacking that in the 90s. I am suggesting that we should start to call the wide-defenders and the defensive midfielders Half-backs as the old use of this term (in 235 or metodo) includes both defensive duties and co-ordinating attacks. Especially watching Man Utd in the pas few years They defend with Rio, Vidic and one midfielder, while the rest are all essentially attachers.
Bring back "Half"-Backs!
--PsybertronJr (talk) 11:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Most football "historians" would refer to the formation Márton Bukovi as the MM. He never really turned the WM formation upside down just the top half of it (2 wingers, 1 central forward, two inside forwards), the effect being that there were two center forwards at the top instead of one "classic 9", who were scarce in Hungary at that time. This meant that, like the article says, the players would maintain a 3-2-3-2 when out of possession and form a sort-of 3-2-1-4 when in possession, with the wingers pushing up to create a front four with the two center forwards. I'm kind of confused about how this article can even characterize Bukovi's formation as having two Ws in it, since he didn't change the positions of the back 3-2 players (Back 3: 2 fullbacks and 1 center back, Top 2: Two center halfs), which would be an evident M. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bronaldinho (talk • contribs) 21:15, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
First, the name, despite being important, IS NOT the most important thing to settle this issue. I know for sure that:
1. Every time numbers are used to describe a formation, it starts with the defense. And the diagram has the goalkeeper at the bottom.
2. When letters are used to describe a formation, we should follow the convention followed by Chapman's W-M: with the goalkeeper at the top of the diagram. The W describes the defense and midfield; and, the M, the attack.
Hint: This is more evident when we remember the initial squad numbering. English is a left-to-right top-to-bottom language and that is why the goalkeeper was 1, left and right full-backs were 2 and 3, left wide half-back was 4, etc.
3. The INITIAL "contribution" of Bukovi was a 3-2-3-2 formation. This old FIFA blog post reads that "Club coach Marton Bukovi is credited often with turning the traditional 3-2-5 attack (known as the "W-M") upside down, withdrawing the centre-forward and pushing the inside-forwards all the way into attack." What he inverted was THE ATTACK AND NOT THE WHOLE FORMATION. Nonetheless, there is something in that sentence that is not accurate: Traditional 3-2-5 was not a W-M formation, it was called the "pyramid" (another hint about how diagrams were developed). Traditional 3-2-5 had a slightly "curved" attack with 5 forwards. The center-forward was the most advanced player. So, the word "traditional" should be omitted in that sentence or, it should simply say "W-M formation attack" (or, Chapman's W-M attack, if you wish).
So, we need to agree that Bukovi fielded THREE defenders and TWO half-backs (the W) and that it was the attack (the M) what was "inverted" (not the whole formation). If we do so, we get the "W-W" formation. Additionally, we have to tell that "Il Metodo" is an M-M formation but when the convention is not followed, writers describe it as a W-W formation.
In short, letters to describe line-ups have proved to be confusing as authors do not stick to a convention. I guess numbers separated with dashes became prominent because it must be hard to find suitable letters that "match" every single formation.
Note 1: In Jonathan Wilson's book, "Inverting the Pyramid", top-goalkeeper diagrams are used and he correctly calls Chapman's formation W-M (which implies what I explained above about formations described with letters) but, when referring to Bukovi's formation he says that, when Bukovi's number 9 was sold to Lazio in 1948, he decided to do away with that position and "he inverted the W of the W-M, creating what was effectively an M-M". He also adds "Gradually, as the centre-forward droppped deeper and deeper to become an auxiliary midfielder, the two wingers pushed on, to create a fluid front four". So, he does not stick to the initial convention laid by the "pyramid" and the "W-M" formations!!! So many problems would be avoided if he had written "he inverted the M of the W-M, creating what was effectively a W-W".
Note 2: Bukovi also introduced the 3-3-4 described in Note 1 which might have looked as a 3-2-5 (W - inverted V) when the wingers crossed the ball from near the end of the pitch.
Note 3:Finally, 4-2-4 was sketched for the first time by Gusztáv Sebes, according to Wilson. But, he also say that coach Béla Guttman claimed that he took 4-2-4 to Brazil but "the truth is rather more complex". Flávio Costa is regarded as an independent developer of 4-2-4 by means of the "diagonal system".
Diagrams and other references:
https://www.facebook.com/Lasenyera.en/photos/a.503481793108418/1489243001198954/?type=1&theater
http://www.thehardtackle.com/2012/jimmy-hogan-marton-bukovi-the-evolution-of-4-2-4/
https://www.football-lineups.com/tactic/3-2-3-2
http://educatedleftfoot.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-men-who-made-modern-football-14.html
George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 08:55, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Under Tony Pulis, Stoke City played with a flat back 6 in a 6-3-1 formation on a few rare occasions. If I can find a source, would it be worth a mention? Ezza1995 (talk) 05:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Is the 1-6-3 a modern formation anymore? Thunder4231Rush (talk) 21:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
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Players run around all the time and it's not like they don't move to help out in dangerous situations, thinking they have stay on their positions. --2.245.90.251 (talk) 19:12, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
At the current Olympics Germany has been playing a 4-1-4-1 formation at least twice. A year or two ago coach Lucien Favre speculated about future formations tending towards an ideal 5-5. So I think that the article should also have a section on 5-5 or similar formations like 4-1-4-1. 85.182.15.201 (talk) 23:00, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
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Hi, there isn't a section that explains 3-4-2-1 formation: it's a little more different from 3-4-3. I think that it must be added, also because today a lot of teams used it. 2.37.167.130 (talk) 12:19, 19 July 2021 (UTC)