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The endocrine disruption topic isn't one that should have been removed from this article, however, it is still an unresolved issue. Invitro studies have shown glyphosate to cause abnormal steroid production in cell lines, but whole organism studies have thus far failed to find evidence of endocrine disruption. However, since endocrine disruption can happen by so many pathways, it may not be surprising to understand that if there was an abnormal affect, it may be difficult to detect over an entire organism. On the other hand, in-vitro studies often exaggerate circumstances to the point where an abnormal affect can be found that wouldn't actually exist in an actual organism. The topic requires more research before glyphosate can be said to be definately an endocrine distuptor, or definately not. However, the information about the research should remain, because it is still important for people to know that it is being studied.
For now, the information should stay, and because it is a matter of dispute (not here on wikipedia, but in the scientific community at large), make sure that all your claims on the matter are cited, to prevent this from turning into an edit war. Thanks!! Phidauex 14:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC) (UTC)
Removed the statement about 'endocrine disruption' and provided a link to the health concerns section of the Roundup article (it provides much more information). --203.206.52.93 8 July 2005 01:10 (UTC)
Under the External Links section of this entry, the "Peer-reviewed, up-to-date info on the toxicology of glyphosate" is not an accurate description -- although it may be the author's description (Ms. Cox). The item linked to this is actually a propaganda item authored by an employee of NCAP -- NCAP is the Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides, an anti-pesticide organization. The item itself was published in the Journal of Pesticide Reform, which is NOT a peer-reviewed publication, but a "journal" describing the positions of the NCAP organization. The JPR is not abstracted by any scientific abstracting service, include Chemical Abstracts, CABA, PUBMED, etc. Scientific libraries do not recognize this as a scientific publication. To call this information in this format "peer-reviewed" is incorrect and blatantly false, as no "peers" have reviewed and agreed with Ms. Cox interpretation of this assortment of studies.
I suggest that this linked item be re-evaluated for its suitability for this Wikipedia entry. If "the other side" needs to be represented, include a link to the NCAP website, so the reader knows the source of the material, just as the reader of the US EPA and EU reviews knows the source. NCAP website: http://www.pesticide.org/
I rearranged the environmental section, by moving the comments about toxicity (EPA class, etc) to the section on fauna toxicity.The first paragraph has been written about glyphosate's herbicidal effects on plants (presumably, plants that were not intended for destruction upon spraying). Looking at the entry on EPA toxicity classes, it seems that their definition of toxicity has to do with poisoning people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.74.80.240 (talk) 23:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
This is obviously now a contensious article. Funny how glyphosate was fine until GM crops came along and it became fashionable to bash it. Anyway, since it is controversial it is not acceptable to quote a source that itself does not quote a source for its claims. For example the greenpeace article at [5] which has the claim "In California, glyphosate is the third most commonly-reported cause of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. " and is presumable the source of the claim to same effect in this article does not provide a source for this claim. The greenpeace article has a list of sources at the end but they do not reference which source belongs to which claim. Therefore, we are unable to check the veracity of the claim made in the Greenpeace article. Hence, my additions of the citation needed tags to this article.
TTguy has consistently removed anything at all looking bad concerning roundup or glyphosate as it is "unreferenced"...in fact everything he has ever removed from this article was actually referenced on the page...he even tried to remove the entire paragraph on toxicity once before...i added monsanto references and even sentences declaring roundup formulations not so bad and explanations for high levels of poisoning incidents such as "of course as its used so much"...yet he went back thru to selectively remove only the references & sentences i added that arnt clearly pro-glyphosate...anyways as i have added reference to monsantos web page...the page of those that wish to sell as much of this product as possible...(and that is their right and its why i linked to their home page on this section)(we have a right to hear why their product is great and not harmful)...and i put in sentences citing them that they didnt reference at all on their home page...i can surely add a link as well to greenpeace...which is considered one of the few sources of information on issues such as this that might have a different view other than the actual seller of the product...the page is only contentious when people like ttguy remove everything except for the description from the seller of the product...then it becomes contentious...yet as i said...its actions such as these cover-ups that make glyphosate seem worse than it actually is...glyphosate was never looked at as "fine" by everyone...its clearly not so harmful as an organochlorine...yet people raise their standards from time to time...and monsanto has even adjusted its formulations to adjust to those higher standards...this has nothing to do with being "fashionable" or GM...in fact, i that have tried to balance this section out, am myself pro-GE tech when its responsible and there is a vocal critical lobby questioning some of GE techs various products...this has everything to do with the actions of this biochemical and its formulations...his explanation that "altho a reference was cited"...and even this had references it sited in its own article...yet doesnt attach to each sentence a reference number???...is pathetic...
yet what makes it really pathetic is that ttguy doesnt go around hopping thru wikipedia looking for uncited sentences...he just removes everything critical he can get away with on a few pesticide pages and the GM pages...and this in fact does harm to these industries as people start to get distrustful and suspicious when all critical comment is wiped clean...anyways my own take on glyphosate and its newest formulations...is that they are indeed an advanced herbicide...relatively non-toxic compared to many...yet it seems the EDC potential/reproductive effects is what looks like it needs some research to determine better its level of harm vrs its agricultural benefit...if one makes the decision to use an herbicide and that one needs them in ones particular agricultural situation...Benjiwolf 16:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
well first of all several references on the page mention this 3rd most common stat...i then saw another figure and qualified to top ten with 3rd and 8th reported...you now report 1st in one year it seems...anyways there is not yet a link right next to that sentence, but it is referrred to in many of the linked articles...everything on this page is cross linked to many documents...and i will further link and cross link to original studies to fend off ur blankings...yet please go ahead and tag it with the appropriate references...i myself added in that the high rate of these incidences are in part as of the high rate of its use...anything used so frequently is bound to have more incidents...anyways add ur own qualifiers...if they were removed it was accidental when reverting ur constant disruptive blankings...ur constant blankings have forced me to stop wasting my time trying to sort thru ur edits...if u begin a policy of discussing removal of things then youll find ur material additions are never lost when i try and sort thru ur edits...as to me "paying" the price...get real...Benjiwolf 15:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
when i look over that greenpeace document i find it often even superior in quality to this page as it stands currently...their introduction is much better with more relevant information...they make no excessive claims...they state clearly glyphosate itself is not very toxic to mammals or birds, and even explain why...(when we can find other more recent sources that state glyphosate may actually be toxic to mammalian reproduction) greenpeace even states that it is its action on other things like fish and the natural flora etc. that is in question... and they state that surfactants in many but not all glyphosate formulations are what usually cause the severe incidents...as you know what??? greenpeace knows all about lobbiests like ttguy...they know if they arnt very cautious that their credibilty will slip even with a single mistake as lobbiests ruthlessly exploit them...ttguy i think u qualify for a job with monsanto...theyd love you...they dont like people like me that aim to include greenpeace documents alongside the monsanto documents i include...they want it unbalanced...and if there is an incidence of a poisoning they want it blacked out...instead of standing up and acknowledging things like that so it doesnt happen so often and/or the products are adjusted to prevent such things, instead its tactics like this that just try and "make it disappear"...Benjiwolf 10:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
after a quick search yielding Carolines recent document thoroughly referenced in the manner TTguy demands (that is not however needed for inclusions to wikipedia)...yet is needed to beat back Ttguy and now force him to bring in his own studies...go ahead TTguy...theres all sorts of Monsanto funded studies...yet mainly just of pure glyphosate and so not giving us accurate info on glyphosate product toxicity...most everything on the toxicty section is also now referenced to her document as well, so you cant so easily throw it all out anymore (your argument that documents for inclusion to wikipedia had to be referenced in this specific manner is invalid however)...i can include a BBC article with no references in it even as they are a valid source and internationally recognized even...just like greenpeace (and dont you now wish it was just the cautious 10 year old greenpeace doc i refered to)...(yet i dont now have to head to an admin to prove this arguement now that ur referencing demands are invalid)...& i would have spent my own time including monsanto studies and docs...yet its ur job now Ttguy...ive done enough of that...if u wish to play lobbiest and just remove the other sides statements ur going to find this neutral editor leaving u all the work for that sides lobbying and document inclusion...if u shift to a neutral position i will return to including monsanto info & refs...anyways...have fun reading thru carolines heavily refd doc and all her nice nifty charts and graphs!!!...i will!...its far more thorough than the greenpeace doc...and not so hesitant (shes a scientist, however, and greenpeace is more worried about backlash from the anti-enviro lobby, she can be firm while they must be weak)...i now want to learn more of this chemical and its formulations after your heavy persistent lobbying for all critical review to be blanked from the page...(u seem to be more persistant than glyphosate even)...Benjiwolf 19:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
There are clearly content issues to be resolved here, but there are also some clear formatting issues. For example this Glyphosate has an EPA Toxicity Class of IV (practically nontoxic) [9]. was changed to this Glyphosate is classed as a moderately toxic herbicide and in EPA toxicity class 2. The former is preferable because it contains links to both information on the EPA (who I'd previously never heard of) and to the Toxicity Class thing (which I'd also never heard of). Secondly, from Toxicity Class, it appears the the correct formatting is Roman rather than Arabic numbering, and finally, the former also provides a source.
With respect to referencing, it would also be helpful to use Wikipedia's footnoting system. Having a footnote containing this information Richard S, Moslemi S, Sipahutar H, Benachour N, Seralini GE. (2005) Differential effects of glyphosate and roundup on human placental cells and aromatase, Environmental Health Perspectives, 113 (6): 716-720. PMID 15929894 is preferable to an in-text citation (Environmental Health Perspectives Vol. 113, No.6, 716-720) for the same article.
It is also some concern that many references are links to websites of not clearly verifiable nature. For these reasons, I have reverted the article to my version. I am more than happy to have negative evidence about this product presented (and there is plenty of it). However, it needs to be well-referenced, and presented in an NPOV way.
Finally, please bear in mind that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and that a separate articles exist to discuss Roundup and Monsanto.--Limegreen 20:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Further in terms of neutrality and accuracy, a sentence such as EPA however clearly admits in exposures above its limits (which it currently sets at 0.7 parts per million in water) could be improved by a) replacing "admits" with "states" (makes it sound less like a conspiracy). Further, the rate is not for "exposure", but for "drinking water". Presumably the dermal concentration would be higher. Finally, in a contextual sense, there are other commonly used herbicides and pesticides that have far lower acceptable levels [10]. --Limegreen 20:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
what is that refernece CAS??? do we have some author names or something..."CAS" is not a valid reference...i will remove in a day or so unless someone clarifies just what they meant...Benjiwolf 13:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
that is indeed what that side reports...the sentence starts with "it has been reported"...and that is one of the basic arguments of that side...that farmers are becoming dependent on an ecologically harmful crutch...we can state that sides position...in fact it should be expanded yet you can click onto that sides document so its just a paraphrase...maybe ill expand it sometime...and i think i might just say a brief word or two from personal experience...i have worked for big agro firms to distribute their products...and i have worked for farmers that dont use their products...a dutch immigrant farmer to the states that had the most successful community supported ag farm in new york state (where many customers sign on for a set amount of produce at the start of the year so the farmer has an idea of how much to grow)...this farmer the weed problem he inherited when he first got to the land were tough...(from a previously chemically farmed area) yet after several years of using methods passed down to him, and he developed quickly after a few seasons, he was able to mainly defeat his weed problem...he used mainly just mechanical cultivation with the tractors...& he used huge long sheets of black plastic mulch for the curcurbits...everything else was mechanical cultivation or cheap or free labor for stuff like just planted carrots...after hitting the weeds hard the fist few seasons and observing things, hitting them at the right time, and various other techniques, it became little problem and also a few minor weeds just make little difference...some even say a few weeds here and there can even increase yields...anyways the fact is farmers have forgotten how they used to deal with the weed problem...they now are totally dependant on a few companies to solve it for them...there has been a serious brain drain in the farming profession and many farmers just rely on what the ag firm tells them to do...yet mechanical cultivation has its problems too...and as to pesticides...well the season i worked for the guy there just werent many serious problems that would drastically affect anything...there were some cucumber beetles that hit hard that year...yet as the farmer had 25 different crops of things it didnt matter that some of the brassicas were hit hard...he had so many other things growing that it just wasnt an issue that seriously impacted his profits even if the brassicas had been totally devestated...its called the way people used to farm less than 100 years ago...its called crop diversification...it doesnt have to be so diverse as he had, to be successful either...just a few different types of crops and a good rotation and ur there...somethings are tougher than others...i worked for an organic apple farm once and they said the apples were a tough one...the strawberries were simpler in regards pests...yet it took them 15 years to develop the methods to solve totally their apple pest/disease problems as they started from scratch knowing nothing about it...people forgot what to do...there is a knowledge gap now after the chemical dependence...chemicals may have their use...yet are best reserved for emergencies...they are overused and their effectiveness for emergencies is now greatly reduced as of that...and what is really interesting me is how fast organic ag has returned to knowledge of how to farm without chems...research like paul stamets the fungi specialist in washington that show simple inncoulations of certain beneficials can double or triple yields is where the future of ag is at...organic agriculture combined with GE tech will be the future of agriculture...chemicals will be reserved for emergencies...and roundup-ready type GE tech (just continueing chem dependence) is going the way of the dodo...yet as i said theres way too much food in this world...people are seriously obese...and the farmers have been screwed as yields may have increased a tad for a while till the soil was ruined yet the prices of their crops just went down...and they were all forced out of business except the largest that could stay alive thru economies of scale...they were forced into their chem dependence...its not their fault...Benjiwolf 13:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
the other side would of course disagree, and even if u got them to agree they would say...well its too late...all these farmers dont have a clue how to farm without chems...and i myself would state itd be dangerous for all the farmers to abandon their chems overnight...they dont know what to do without them and their soil is hurting...and the big ag firms just didnt understand all these issues back at the turn of the century when they developed this stuff...people didnt realize how toxic some of this stuff was...when they finally did, greed prevailed, and we saw falsified studies and subtle manipulation of data...yet the real crime...the real current crime is domestic gardeners using the chems..the farmers have excuses...the domestic gardners in heavily populated areas have no excuse...anyways it a legitmate critique that side has, it is a highly public critique, many many books have been written concerning this issue...and a paraphrased sentence about it in the article stays...and...the fact is...some of the agro firms will listen to that argument and adjust their product lines so their products arnt controversial anymore...neither side enjoys fighting the other...someday a resolution will be found...Benjiwolf 13:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I see that a lot of the text on this page is repeated verbatim at Roundup. There seem a couple of obvious options. 1. Roundup could redirect to glyphosate (usually the case for off-patent products). 2. Roundup, and in particular its association with Roundup Ready crops, is semi-distinct from glyphosate, so it could continue to exist with its own twist, but needs to have the overlap minimised.
And another thing, this page is still a trainwreck. Please, Benjiwolf, while I have some issues with some of the content you've added, by far the biggest reversion temptation at the moment is the style of your edits. You're still using emotive language, still not capitalising, still not footnoting, and still not linking through to other articles. It's just a huge and not very readable blob of text. --Limegreen 02:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree; I read this article early in January and tried to edit it a little. Since then, it's become uglier and uglier. Wikipedia is supposed to be encyclopedic, not a one-man band for green points of view, no matter how legitimate. 129.74.80.240 04:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC) jKay
its surely getting uglier and uglier to monsanto as studies now pile up that arnt so flattering, and now with the fact that their pro-monsanto scientists went to prison...Benjiwolf 09:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
well i need to now reference all the studies i put in to the reference section...of course its a mess with all the studies listed full out right next to the sentences...yet give some time people...this is volunteer work even!...i am proceeding in steps people...its not like i can do all this at once...im adding hundreds of scientific studies to this page...Ttguy forced this type of action, yet really people, i didnt know what i was going to find when i started editing this...Ttguy removed all critical comment on this page, so i went to reinstate some of it, then found he was just an agro lobbiest and removed it all...so i had to start searching and adding hundreds of scientific studies so that side was resistant to his blanking...and i had no idea i would run across what i did like monsanto scientists heading to prison even!...that came as a total surprise...anyways...as to glyphosate-roundup, well there is some slight difference, yet i am supportive of combining the pages, and we can spell out the differences on the single page...as currently i have to add things to both concurrently and its a hassle...i will work the next couple days on combining it effectively, please give a few days to allow for a proper transfer...anyways if someone that types faster than i can transfer the scientific references to the reference section id be appreciative...im best at adding new material, and i still have to add in another 50 studies so this guy Ttguy cant just remove it so easily!...anyways dont call me out...i have been adding many monsanto links & many pro-monsanto sentences too...& its been a two man band...Ttguy totally pro-monsanto blanking anything not flattering...and me trying to write in both sides stories linking to both yet forced to defend anything Ttguy doesnt like with hundreds of studies...right in the intro on toxicity i tell you there are two sides to this story, i also tell you there is no consensus, and that there is controversy, i tell you it is argueably less toxic than many other herbicides and pesticides (some would say yes it is as of its american EPA class III, others would say no it isnt as its used so much and hasnt been studied properly)...and its not my fault i found out monsanto had people heading to prison even!...they can only blame themselves...Benjiwolf 09:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
anyways limegreen your criticism are mostly valid...yet give some time please...i didnt care at all about this page until i saw someone blanking half it...now i have come in...yet it takes some time to get it all perfect, its not going to happen overnight, ive already spent many hours on this page...and id appreciate if other people actually went in to capitalize and such or move references to the reference section...as to emotive language, that criticism im not so sure i agree with...yet ill go thru and take a look...anyways thanks again for good criticisms and taking it to the talk page to give people some time and not just trying to erase...Benjiwolf 09:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
if the words "caught" and "falsifying" sound emotive...well thats what happened...its hard to get around that...other than that i see few emotive words..."clear and vast improvement" is somewhat emotive yet pro-monsanto...ill change that EPA "admits" to "states"...Benjiwolf 10:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
if someone wishes to transfer the many full references to numbers it would be appreciated, with the full ref in ref section...im not sure how to do it...yet it will greatly make the page easier to read & more coherrent, and much shorter too...thanks...Benjiwolf 10:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This article states "It has been reported that glyphosate formulations can persist on foods & food crops for up to two years". The reference for this is a document from the National Coalition Against the Misuse of Pesticides [14]. Their document lists the source of this claim as their reference 6 which is: Pesticide Action Network, 1997. Glyphosate fact sheet. And suggests "For more information about glyphosate visit http://data.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33138". I did vist the PAN http://data.pesticideinfo.org but could not find the Glyphosate Fact Sheet mentioned. I found the glyphosate page referenced but no mention on this page either about food or a Fact sheet. So since there is nothing to back up this claim about residues persisting for 2 years I am going to delete it. Someone can put it back in if they can provide a citation to back up the claim.
See also Talk:Roundup#Several comments re: Roundup article which mentions that some people have misinterpreted a study that involved radiolabeled glyphosate. Radioactive Glyphosate was applied to plants, and the radiolabeled carbon was tracked for a few years -- this is a study the EPA requires. The "residues" noted in the EPA report were the individual carbon atoms that had been metabolized by the plant and soil and then taken up by the next year's crop. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ttguy (talk • contribs) 05:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
ive actually quit wikipedia...and its as i wont work with quacks and frauds. I have always valued accuracy and precision. I wont be part of a group that wrongly lists this chemical as class 4 instead of 3. Someone had it as 2. It was changed to 4. I restored while looking it up on the side of caution. I saw it was 3 and changed it to this. I wont be part of a group that calls something proven deadly at 100ml to 200ml as "practically non-toxic". Milk is practically non-toxic. Anything needing to be registered by the EPA is not "practically non-toxic". I wont be part of a group that simply removes studies and referenced material instead of showing counter studies or examining the studies to find issues in the studies. I wont be part of a group that removes the fact that monsanto funded studies even had people going to prison, and that they faced lawsuit for trying to claim this product was "practically non-toxic" or "safe as table salt". I only have one question. I ask Ttguy to name the university that gave him his PHD. I want to know who is turning out people that just remove referenced studies instead of examining or criticizing the studies or citing their own. What university handed you that paper saying you are a PHD Ttguy?...currently my opinion of the entire university system in Australia is very very low...i officially went to the university system in Boston, using the resources of such places as Harvard and MIT and Boston University, and i have used the university system in Switzerland some...yet i consider my alma mater to be the UC system, and i have just recently begun to become familiar with non-american based university systems so can say little regards them in comparisons, yet i am begining to get a glimpse of the Australian system thru You...where did u go to university Ttguy?...Anyways do what you want with the page Ttguy. I tried to just remove it all to the "quack" version the other day and it was reverted...(with new wikipedia character "silence of the wolves"). This is the version i want for the american-australian audience. i will not work as part of a team of quacks and frauds. I was open to adjusting format and language and wished many counter studies from monsanto to the other sides positions...yet i am simply quitting wikipedia...i also am trying to get the ability to remove anything i have added to the talk pages i wish to, as it can be considered a POV rant in many cases. The true reason is i dont wish certain things i have said to be in the community of knowledge to australian and american users anymore. It removes it from british or new zealand users as well, and other english speakers, yet i write the british, english speaking community, with things i feel i need to, anyways, directly. Also i was not authorized to release some of these things, so wikipedia copyright over them is questionable if i wish to remove them myself...they will remain in my contribution list i suppose, yet very few will ever access that so it is effectively removed...Anyways this case of fraud is only a partial reflection on wikipedia. Many wikipedia pages are of excellent quality and the material is sound. I feel the concept was a good one, and of great benefit, and the fraud being executed on this page is no reflection on Jimmy Wales himself, it is one of the failings in the concept so far. However, pages subject to any controversy can be highly inaccurate, and factual material can be removed and false material can be instated, even after it is questioned and called out as false. Referenced material to valid scientific studies can be made to disappear. I am sorry, yet i adhere to a higher standard of precision and accuracy, i may have made a mistake here or there on a page of wikipedia, yet very few, and if it is shown i made one i instantly will remove an invalid study or false reference...my personal feeling for the glyphosate page was that everything on it, my last edit under "benjiwolf" was factual as far as i knew, i felt the page needed more studies from Monsanto to be a better scientific document, and I challenged Ttguy to simply bring in some of the many studies Monsanto has carried out, i added three links to their pages and studies to start the process and added several paraphrased sentences of the general line of their research results...Instead he simply removed valid counter-studies and factual information...i will not work with quacks and frauds...while you may suggest some of my wording or formatting was biased, well it was hard not to be somewhat biased once i discovered the cases of scientists going to prison or being accused of fraud on that side of the issue...
as to glyphosate products, they are as i said moderately toxic herbicides, whether the benfits outway the costs i have stated no position on...some chemicals' benefits do outweigh the possible or actual harms they have...some chemicals and chemical products are in fact "practically non-toxic" to humans and their world...however, i am leaning to the position that i want it and all other chemicals Monsanto has developed to be used heavily in Australia with no regulation, i implore decent Australians, and the several Australian friends i have made, to only use filtered water, and to avoid the farm fields, and to take as many vacations as possible, i will no longer block the chemical industry going full out with every chemical in Australia no matter any negative research findings on any particular chemical...in fact im now going to lobby for them...let Australia err on the side of its native PHD and not on the side of caution, i fully support all chemical industries in Australia and will now lobby for all standards to be dropped as the Australian PHD i feel is accepting such treatment on behalf of Australia...and i suggest the label for all australian chemical products to state "practically non-toxic" no matter other findings...the label is general and vague enough to actually be true...and I turn this page over to Ttguy and with an admonition to British and New Zealand users that it is fraudulent...Benjiwolf 13:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
We will miss your bizare ramblings. They were actually quite entertaining in a train wreck kind of way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ttguy (talk • contribs) 03:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC).
An anonymous user taged this page with a Neutrality dispute. (The user that did the taging was infact Benjiwolf in defiance of his ban).
Well I think the page as it stands is NPOV. It provides two points of view for the chemical glyphosate. For example where it used to say "glyphosate creates the most cases of toxic exposure in california" it now points out what the data acutally shows - the most incidents reported - but also points out the severity of these incidents is very low. So now it is NPOV but in the past it has been very POV.
The issue with Benjiwolf was not over NPOV but over uncited sources for claims - violation of WP:CITE. He could not cite reputable sources for the claims he made. Rather he would either provide no citations or cite a web site put out by the Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides - not exactly a neutral source. As I understand it web pages a sources for Wiki articles are not regarded as the ideal source. As to the comment that the large part of the talk page is devoted to NPOV added Dirk Beetstra when he put the neutrality tag back - I beg to differ. The talk page is talking about sources for statements. If a user - preferably not an anoymous one - can point out in this section on the talk page where the article deviates from NPOV then we have a point to start with for fixing the page. As it stands there are no specific claims about where the POV is off so it is not possible to fix it.
So unless someone can add to this section specific points where the page is violate NPOV I think the neutrality tag should go.Ttguy 07:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
In response to the RfC, I removed the ((neutrality)) tag. I hope no one feels I jumped the gun, but as an outsider it appears neutral to me, balancing different sides. If anyone feels the tag still belongs, re-add it, but please explain exactly what you see as problematic so it can be addressed. --Ginkgo100talk 22:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
We used to have this text but the refererence did not support the claim. If someone can find the reference to this study then we can add this text back.
I have replaced the text and reference, please have another try, kind regards sbandrews 12:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I am looking into a ref for the claim that 80% of the soybeans in the USA are RR. I don't doubt the figure.
International Service for the Acquisition of Agri-biotech Applications (ISAAA) Pocket K No. 16 Global Status of Commercialized Biotech/GM Crops in 2005[17] says 60% of the worlds soybeans were herbicide tolerant (HT) in 2005. The question is are there any other HT soybeans in comercial use besides RR soybean?Ttguy 21:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Ttguy 00:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
We currently have this unreferenced statement in the Other species section. "There are currently few studies into the toxicity of glyphosate formulations "
I want to point out this article in Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology Volume 31, Issue 2 , April 2000, Pages 117-165
Thus, I think it is fair to say that it is demonstrably false that there are "few studies into the toxicity of glyphosate formulations". So since the claim has no supporting reference and there are references to the complete opposite of the claim I propose to delete the claim. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ttguy (talk • contribs) 01:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
well first of all thanks for submitting the document, as it brings another issue to my attention "the substances of Nufarm and Calliope deviated significantly from the impurity profiles of Monsanto/Cheminova"[20] this is interesting as we can now see that these products may not even be clearly standard, and that impurities can exist with totally untested substances in them with no testing data on the impure compounds whatsoever!!! I hadnt thought of that before. Plus we could test a roundup product from one company and it could have a different toxicological profile from roundup made by another company! This document also states "Member States must pay particular attention to the protection of the groundwater in vulnerable areas" [21] so we also see that if it was entirely non-toxic they wouldnt have put this statement in there as there would be no concern with this product at all levels of use. Anyways these issues of testing and current studies, the statement reads "There are currently few studies into the toxicity of glyphosate formulations, most are conducted by Monsanto, and Greenpeace's cautious 10 year old statement that glyphosate has little toxicity to mammals came before the more recent research"...well this is true, greenpeaces statement came before the modern independent studies showing EDC effects or other reproductive effects, there are few studies today currently into glyphosate toxicity and most studies have been carried out by the big-agros or people they have funded, mainly monsanto as they developed this product...yet i am changing the wording slightly to "currently few independent studies"...and the problem is... there is no profit motive to fund studies showing toxicity of glyphosate products, there is extreme profit motive to have studies that show it is completely harmless , thats not to say many of the studies arnt good or relevant, just that this issue of testing is bound to be skewed to one side...and i havent even mentioned in this argument the fact that.......scientific fraud & false advertising:
"Until recently most studies of glyphosate and glyphosate product toxicty have been carried out by Monsanto or funded by them. On two occasions the american EPA has caught scientists deliberately falsifying test results at research laboratories hired by Monsanto to study glyphosate, and Monsanto has been charged with illegally advertising, (falsely and misleadingly), glyphosate products calling them "safer than table salt", prompting a law suit by the New York State attorney general[22], and prompting several action groups to form in the United States against these products. In the second incident of falsifying test results in 1991, the owner of the lab (Craven Labs), and three employees were indicted the following year on 20 felony counts, the owner was sentenced to 5 years in prison and fined 50,000 dollars, the lab was fined 15.5 million dollars and ordered to pay 3.7 million in restitution. Craven laboratories performed studies for 262 pesticide companies including Monsanto. In the first incident involving "Industrial Biotest Laboratories", a reviewer stated after finding "routine falsification of data" that it was "hard to believe the scientific integrity of the studies when they said they took specimens of the uterus from male rabbits". The EPA performed this audit of IBT in 1976, yet the fraud did not make headlines until 1983. Monsanto has also been charged in countries besides the US for false advertising of roundup and misleading the public, and just recently lost a suit in Europe, yet are appealing.[23] and for the illiterate the following are what we call "even more references"!!!: (not too flattering of the product or the testing is it lethaniol, its the type of thing you really want to hide and erase isnt it lethaniol!)...(U.S. Congress. House of Representatives. Com. on Gov. Oper. 1984. Problems palgue the EPA pesticide registration activities. House Report 98-1147)(U.S. EPA Office of pesticides and Toxic Substances 1983, Summary of the IBT review program. Washington D.C. July)(U.S. EPA 1978 Data validation. Memo from K LOcke, Toxicology Branch, to R Taylor, Registration Branch. Washington DC Aug 9)(US EPA Communications and Public Affairs 1991 Note to correspondents Washington DC Mar 1)(US EPA Communications, Education, And Public Affairs 1994 Press Advisory. Craven Laboratories, owner, and 14 employees sentenced for falsifying pesticide tests. Washington DC Mar 4)(US EPA Communications and Public Affairs 1991 Press Advisory. EPA lists crops associated with pesticides for which residue and environmental fate studies were allegedly manipulated. Washington DC Mar 29)(US Dept. of Justice. United States Attorney. Western District of Texas 1992. Texas laboratory, its president, 3 employees indicted on 20 felony counts in connection with pesticide testing. Austin TX Sept 29)" 83.78.144.13 20:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
until you add this factual account of more than one even!! incidents and scandals involving scientific fraud that are factual and fully referenced and also false advertising that were blanked out despite extensive referencing (i dont think it was Ttguy that blanked that actually), your version of this product on this page has severe problems, you can mention all the studies you want, yet until people see that there is some serious question as to the independence of some of the toxicological testing for this product, and that the studies are bound to be skewed by the nature of the testing systems and who carries the tests out, this page has severe problems...that is not to say glyphosate products are the end of the world or something, or that it isnt less toxic than many ag-chemicals, or that the benefits of roundup and like products dont outweigh the harms, i feel personaly we need more current independent tests to decide upon that for our respective areas and nations, particularly into EDC and negative reproductive effects: as to do we need the possible benefits and are they worth the possible harms in our respective areas?, I'm just saying there are some issues here with the testing so far 83.78.144.13 20:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
as perhaps some of the results showing EDC activity would only be mainly applicable to the farmworkers and not the general population in the nation, and perhaps they could take adequate protection to minimize possible negative consequences of working with these types of products, perhaps the possible soil benefits of herbicide weed cultivation vrs mechanical tilling, and also potential labor saving despite massive worldwide unemployment is somehow worth it, yet I am considering advocating a new position, sort of my response to Hagel advocating reinstating the draft so things are more equal: if you consume conventional food mainly, then you have to spend a couple weekends a year spraying the chemicals, and you also have to allow your children to spend several weekends a year spraying the chemicals!!!...if you consume mainly organic/bio food then your kids spend those weekends on the chemical-free farms and instead of "suiting up" and spraying chemicals that are indeed stated as "safer than table salt" by the testers themselves (like Monasanto), they drive the tractor around the field instead, but its your choice, nuke power i can agree it is worth it, and we need the scientific developments that come by having the industry for our long term future (we just need better standards & planning), i would let my kid "suit up" for a weekend at the nuke plant, (but of course its best & more sensible to have the older folks "suit up" than the children & child bearing population if you want the "hagel equalitarian thing in the nuke industry", when my kid hits 50 then she can "suit up" to "pay her dues" at the nuke plant) ...yet with chem agro i think its way way overdone, and is unecessary, plus people have too much food, they are obese, and there is plenty of labor out there of people that arnt rocket scientist material yet that need some excercise, are unemployed, & that can work the chemical-free fields...plus the chem industry will still plunge on ahead without so much chem agro and just some compared to now, plus there are plenty of other ways to further the yields without roundup-ready tech, including other more sensible GE tech than roundup ready tech 83.78.144.13 20:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear 83.78.144.13/Benjiwolf, The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article. Your massive amounts of text does not suggest how to improve the article. Can you summarise your argument into a form that is encylopedic? Because I agree with Limegreen - your style is unreadable.
Your argument seems to suggest that we should change the model for regulation of chemicals in the environment. The current model as used in pretty much every part of the world is that an agency of the government is charged with regulating chemicals. This agency requires certain safety studies to be done before a company can sell a new chemical. Since it is the chemcial company that will profit from the sales of the chemical it falls to them to pay to do the studies. Who would you suggest should pay to do the studies?
Monsanto was not the only company to be burnt by the two fraud instances you continue to harp on. It cost Monsanto millions of dollars to re-do the tests that they paid the companies to do. They had to redo the studies and submit the results. Monsanto and other companies were victim of fraud not the perpertator of the fraud. You are conducting nothing more than a smear campaign. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ttguy (talk • contribs) 09:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
Text used to read:
I changed it to
for the following reasons
Reference 17 - EPA re-registration fact sheet mentions the toxicity class and was published in 1993. But this does not mean glyphosate was "given" the III rating in 1993.
Reference [9] GM Williams, R Kroes, JC Munro (2000). "Safety evaluation and risk assessment of the herbicide Roundup and its active ingredient, glyphosate, for humans". Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology 31-N2: 117-165 which I have only seen the abstract. However, it is the reference 17 that actually mentions the rating of Severe for eye irritation. Ref 17 actually mentions that it is "some formulations" of glyphosate that have this rating - implying that it is something other than the glyphosate that is the problem when you splash the concentrate in your eyes. Hence cited ref 17 for the eye irritation rating.
There did not appear to be a reference to support the claim that class IV is appropriate for oral, dermal and inhalation. Unless this is ref 9. The abstract on 9 does not mention the class IV rating. So unless someone who has the full article can confirm the IV rating for oral dermal etc we should leave it out.Ttguy 12:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I am working through the text and I am up to this bit.
I am going to delete this bit fairly soon because we have not had any citations come forward in quite a while.
And before anyone whines about this I would point to the policy on Wikipedia:Verifiability states "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ttguy (talk • contribs) 12:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC).
I found a reference for Glyphosate in US streams. Reconnaissance Data for Glyphosate, Other Selected Herbicides, Their Degradation Products, and Antibiotics in 51 Streams in Nine Midwestern States, 2002. Elisabeth A. Scribner, William A. Battaglin, Julie E. Dietze, and E.M. Thurman [26]. However, it mentions that Atrazine was found in 93 percent of the samples followed by metolachlor, found in 73 percent of the samples where as Glyphosate was found in 36 percent of the samples. So do we include the information that Glyphosate is found in low concentrations in streams. It actually seems pretty irrelevant information - especially with out the context that it is just one of many herbicides found in streams. Ttguy 12:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right way to do it, but Ttguy might be interested to know this.
Just stumbled over what seems like an obsolete reference (27) that Denmark has banned Glyphosate. I do not believe this is true - based on the fact that I am living in Denmark and have just bought a litre of All-Out (360g Glyphosate) and attacked an overwhelming mass of weed in my garden.
The Study referred to suggested that Glyphosate didn't bind to particles in the soil but actually washed down to the layers carrying drinking water. However, the experiment measured Glyphosate levels in water one (1) meter down - while there is water at this level, it has nothing to do with drinking water. Danish farmers - and this I recall was supported by independent research - pointed to the fact that structure in the top level of the soil lead water (and Glyphosate) quite quickly downwards - e.g. due to worm holes etc.. However this is not the case in greater depths where the particle binding may actually work as envisioned. For all I know, the suggested ban never passed legislature.
Reference (In danish): http://www.landbrugsavisen.dk/LandbrugsAvisen/2004/8/6/Glyphosat-forbudet+er+aflyst.htm
Bottom line is that Glyposate based products as RoundUp, GlyphoNova and All-Out are still sold for industrial and private use. There may be restrictions in the use near groundwater reservoirs and such, but to refer to a general ban would not be correct.
80.196.6.165 (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Have just reverted this [27]
This is clearly coming from a particular POV - but I think it is wortwhile checking out this diff for some useful references and content. Cheers Lethaniol 23:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
well all I got warned for was removing a bunch of information, I only got in trouble for reverting to y'alls page!!!...83.78.136.13 01:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
In the last few edits to the roundup page Ttguy has used vulgar profanities such as "up shit creek" and has also used personal attacks, should the page be protected from him? Well it appears that currently on the roundup page people don't really resort to such things as blocks for other editors even in extreme cases of wikipedia violations such as these, yet the editors of this page "glyphosate" use lowblow tactics, like trying to delete other articles that are referenced extensively, or trying to block other editors, making this page "glyphosate" an unappealing one to work on, I don't think you need to protect it, no one really seems to want to join the editors of this page actually, and work on it with them, so the need to protect it, is a silly proposal-85.1.212.140 05:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
But it seems that everyone is concentrating on the health aspects and pro/con Monsanto reversions/revisions. Wouldn't it make sense to just place the nonrepeated information at the end of this article, instead of in it's own?
A controversy section would be the appropriate place to mention the health effects of the 'inactive' ingredients? Having a link to the preservative's article would make the deal?
I don't think that I want to volunteer to rewrite this since I'm a coward. (LOL) JWhiteheadcc (talk) 01:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I (60.229.54.45)added a section on the use of restrictions which was subsequently removed by Ttguy for these reasons: "Restrictions section - denmark section. Not specific to Glyphosate or denmark ."
I question Ttguy's claim that the extra Danish 2003 restrictions placed were "Not specific to glyphosate or denmark" for these reasons:
1. The exceptional and specific restrictions to seasonal applications were placed specifically on glyphosate use by the Danish governmemnt in response to a study showing contamination of grondwater by glyphosate in Denmark - and was not a standard premptive restriction on pesticide use for reducing contamination (please provide evidence that the same restriction was applied to glyphosate in other countries prior to the Danish 2003 restrictions), and hence this also implies that this was overlooked in the original pesticide registration for glyphosate in Denmark.
2. The Danish 2003 restrictions on glyphosate could be an important precedence for glyphosate use and should be included in any encyclopedic type entry on glyphosate.
Also, there are other reasons why the Danish 2003 glyphosate restrictions deserve to be cited in Wikipedia:
1. The Danish 2003 glyphosate restrictions are frequently cited by glyphosate critics and to maintain NPOV we should cover this issue.
2. There is confusion over the extent of the Danish restrictions, with some critics erroneously using the term "ban" when in fact there is only "restrictions" on glyphosate use in Denmark, and I think Wikipedia has a role to play in clarifying the Danish position from a factual NPOV.
For comparison with another topic, the toxicology of citronella oil is dealt with thoroughly in Wikipedia, and appropriately deals with specific safety issues, and this article on glyphosate also needs to clarify specific issues - like the Danish 2003 restrictions on glyphosate - in a similar way to how the citronella oil articles cover the Canadian governments toxiciological viewpoint on citronella oil.
To this end I will reinstall the removed section on Use Restrictions with original references for verifiability, unless there is sound reason given to not do so. Cheers. John Moss (talk) 03.54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I just came across the same 2004 reference on the revoking of the Denmark restrictions. So that's resolved. Cheers. John Moss (talk) 07:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Rationale: Glyphosate and Roundup have largely identical content as of now, and for a good reason. Roundup is merely a trademark (and not the only one) of the herbicide with glyphosate as its only active ingredient. The sections "Chemistry", "Biochemistry", most of "Health, ecological concerns and controversy", "Glyphosate resistance in weeds and microorganisms", "Tradenames", and "Other uses" of the article Roundup, i.e. 95% of the article, should rather belong to the generic article Glyphosate. There is almost nothing specifically pertaining to Roundup in that article. Though we could in principle clean both articles up, eventually they'll become duplicates of each other again. I see absolutely no reason to maintain two very similar articles. Colchicum (talk) 19:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
So, shall we merge the chemical and glyophosate-specific information to glyophosate, and leave Roundup for the brand name? --Rifleman 82 (talk) 13:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
No, don't merge because the articles are long enough as it is. The Roundup article can reference glyphosate for the chemistry and the glyphosate article can remain succinct for those who don't care about Roundup. Though a comment above says 'Roundup IS glyphosate', it's also true that not all glyphosate is Roundup. There are several generic versions available. Irongs (talk) 12:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I know there is a long sentence with big chemical names in it, but I am not a plant physiologist. Would someone please add a simple sentence like: interferes with energy metabolism, or shuts down sythesis of compounds necessary for respiration
to the appropriate section.
Also, the Roundup page has a lot of citations on it. If these are useful they should be transferred to whatever new form these articles take. A shame to waste someones good work.
Thanks in advance. Primacag —Preceding unsigned comment added by Primacag (talk • contribs) 19:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
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