The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

N Not done - no consensus to move. Neıl ☎ 11:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gregory of Sanok → Grzegorz of Sanok — Simple Google books test gives 252 for Grzegorz and 134 for Gregory, also translations of names are not proffered. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 22:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC) —≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 22:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 22:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Google book test: "Gregory of Sanok" has 56 hits. "Grzegorz of Sanok" has 25 hits.

Google scholar test: "Gregory of Sanok" has 14 hits. "Grzegorz of Sanok" has four hits. Sciurinæ (talk) 01:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I'm not sure what critera the originator used in his GB searches. My scan indicates a 2 to 1 ratio of Gregory of Sanok to Grzegorz of Sanok. Translations in titles are preferred when the translation has been used more frequently in English than the original. Olessi (talk) 01:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a practical matter, I wonder whether many people in Poland or elsewhere have heard of "Grzegorz of Sanok" aka "Gregory of Sanok," and therefore would care either way, on purely statistical grounds, how the name is rendered in English.

More generally, statistics may not be the ideal way of resolving such questions, as statistics may lead to use of original name in one obscure case and of translated name in an equally obscure case. Nihil novi (talk) 03:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose as per myself, and per reality, reflected by the two gentlemen directly above, and per Pan Norman Davies, who is quite polonophil, yet uses Gregory. And please, folks, try to find sources, instead of rounding up the usual suspects for polls. As "explain your reasons" is required, two of you perfectly illustrated that you can't explain your reasons. -- Matthead  DisOuß   04:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - the Google figures are not conclusive, and the general rule is to use the commonest English form of a name in the absence of compelling reasons to do otherwise, of which there are no sign here.HeartofaDog (talk) 14:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support--Molobo (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - the number of results in google depends very much on your system's language version and/or on which language you have in google toolbar. I have 113 for "Gregory of Sanok" and 74 for "Grzegorz of Sanok". As the grounds for change are not very firm, but still the original names are preferred, I myself am not sure whether to support or oppose the motion. Pundit|utter 20:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Support "Grzegorz of Sanok" (with pronunciation guide). Thank you all for an illuminating discussion. Nihil novi (talk) 04:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. There is clear evidence that Gregory of Sanok is used in English; the various search results are poorly done, inconclusive, contradictory, and even in the best light do not indicate any statistically significant difference. Furthermore, there is nothing in evidence to show that "Grzegorz" is anything other than a translation into a spelling common Modern Polish, nothing showing any contemporary use of that spelling. Furthermore, for many historical figures there are a wide variety of spelligns which have been used. Use English. Gene Nygaard (talk) 21:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Any additional comments:

I think we generally stick to authentic names for moderns; e.g., I wouldn't "translate" "Krzysztof Kieślowski" as "Christopher Kieślowski." But I understand that many scholars do think it acceptable or even appropriate to render Scholastics' names of the pre-surname period, such as "Grzegorz of Sanok," in translation ("Gregory of Sanok"). So I, too, am torn in my feelings on this question. Does anyone else have thoughts about it? Nihil novi (talk) 23:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Wikipedia uses a translated name for someone who died three weeks before Kieslowski was born: William II, German Emperor. Less than a month is a pretty small gap between "pre-surname period" and "modern (period)". -- Matthead  DisOuß   23:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will happily support a motion to rename the article to "Wilhelm II, German Emperor," including waiver of the "surname rule." Nihil novi (talk) 04:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, so would I.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 18:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The full beauty of the name translations appears when you try the same with some current person, e.g. John Lennon, cs Wiki would be Honza Lennon, de Wiki Johann Lennon, pt Wiki João Lennon. It sound pretty funny and ridiculous isn't it ? Alternative name should appear in the brackets after the original name. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 23:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that, of the two references for this article, one (Norman Davies, God's Playground) uses "Gregory," while the other (New Cambridge Modern History) uses "Grzegorz." Nihil novi (talk) 23:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[[[reply]

This 1958 source that uses Grzegorz on the very same page also speaks of Mary of Habsburg rather than Maria von Österreich. Funny, so Polish names are okay, while German ones need to be transmutified into something else? I love those Polonophil & Germanophobe guys that brought us the Polish Corridor, one or two World wars, Odra-Nysa line, and Wikipedia naming conventions. -- Matthead  DisOuß   01:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There does seem to be an unfortunate trend on Wikipedia to translate the names of royalty into English, e.g. "Jan III Sobieski" to "John III Sobieski." If it were up to me, it would be "Maria."

Unfortunate, too, how the Poles were permitted to start the two World Wars! Nihil novi (talk) 02:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have some personal problems with Poles, Matthead? ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 07:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Judge by yourself[1],[2]

Anyway only on the beauty that is Wiki one can learn in discussion about medieval scholar that Poles started First and Second World War.--Molobo (talk) 20:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. At least the article is no longer introducing the subject as Gregor von Sanok... -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.