Page move

I don't understand the recent page move by Gluepix. The edit summary says "Change to sentence case (MOS:AT)", but sentence case would mean a lower case "p" - which is what we had before, per WP:NCCPT. Furius (talk) 08:09, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Completely agree, I've moved the page back, and reverted the WP:GOODFAITH edit by Gluepix. --YodinT 10:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

#Process comment

§ Process currently describes what the Seales group was up to in 2016. In the context of the Vesuvius Challenge, some parts of the description are quite outdated, even using the Seales group's own updated tutorial for the prize.

Right now we are devoting a lot of text to an outdated way to do S&F. We should be describing what made the ΠΟΡΦΥΡΑϹ word possible: new S&F tooling, a bunch of people doing the S&F, and finally AI engineers trying stuff on the flattened volume. Artoria2e5 🌉 06:30, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The grand prize for 2023 has now been awarded (I've added it to the article) and the page for it has a lot of detail on how that was achieved, which should be added to the process section. The parts about what the Seales group was doing eight years ago should be reduced to a summary, I think.  — Scott • talk 18:34, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the origin of the phase-contrast technique applied to the Herculaneum papyri

In the "Virtual unrolling"-section, it seems as though Vito Mocella recently has been citing a lot of his own research in a non-neutral tone, and also removed some other material without explanation in the process. Citing own work, in and of itself, is fine according to WP:SELFCITE. However, I have tried to restore a sensible Wikivoice as well as the removed material. (Other changes have been kept. In some places, <ref name="Mocella2015"/> has been tucked onto already cited material, which might be against the spirit of SELFCITE?)

I don't know much about these scrolls, so it might be good if someone checks whether the current version makes sense. This, of course, includes Dr. Mocella himself. I added a notice to the talk page of User talk:VitoMocella68. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 21:30, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I made a partial revert of similar edits. I don't know the facts well, but several things seem biased. For example, the initial section according to which "Several research groups proposed [the method]" was removed (I restored it). Emphasis has been added about the role played by "the team led by Vito Mocella", and that their research "enabled all the subsequent steps". —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 13:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reader needs to understand where the innovation lies in comparison to microCT, which has been shown to be incapable of reading papyri. Therefore, a description should be left explaining where the difficulty of microCT lies and why phase contrast is able to overcome these difficulties. when you talk about science, on wikipedia as elsewhere, you use the scientific terminology of major or incremental contribution. If a technique is proven to work, it is a major contribution. If someone else uses it years later, it is an incremental contribution, and of course chronological order counts. The wording you keep coming back is therefore misleading, not to say false say:"Several research groups proposed to unroll the scrolls virtually, using X-ray phase-contrast tomography (XPCT, "phase-contrast CT"), possibly with a synchrotron light source. " and cite as first a work published in late 2016 ! The chronology of events counts and must be clearly established on the page. VitoMocella68 (talk) 14:25, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm reverting, for two reasons. (1) Quality issues. I have until now tried to carefully remove only the most problematic content (biased formulations, botched sentences, strange linking), but even what looks like blatant mistakes keep coming back. (2) More importantly, it looks like you are involved in a feud with Dr. Seales. It seems very inappropriate for you to add things to the effect of "his methods were a failure, mine were a success". And AT THE VERY LEAST, such things should have secondary sources. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 20:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you explain on what basis you write: "several group proposed... " ? I explained above that you cannot write generically "several groups proposed ..." and put links in a causal chronological order. There is a before and an after, and the Wikipedia page has to respect the order of events in a neutral way. In add, science progresses through unsuccessful attempts! it is not written anywhere this there is a failure and this is a success. There is a link to a B. Seals scientific article (not newspaper!) from 2013 of which the words in it are simply quoted. VitoMocella68 (talk) 16:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reverting again. Same issues. You could write down here all the actual changes you propose, so that the community can evaluate them one by one.
Also, please do not entirely re-write the heading of this discussion. Would you like to confirm that you are indeed the Vito Mocella whose research is cited in the article? —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 18:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to know, I am someone who knows and appreciates the work of Vito Mocella and that is why I chose that nickname. Can you tell us who you are instead and what your skills are?? VitoMocella68 (talk) 19:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is starting to look like an edit war, so I'm pinging a few experienced and recent substantial contributors to the article. @WatkynBassett, NeverBeGameOver, Artem.G, and Scott: Could any of you please give your opinions on this? —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 18:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, looks like a feud of Vito Mocella and Seales, you might want to escalate it to admins or start RfC. Artem.G (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a feud. This is about chronological order. If I read the (non-scientific) article linked by St.Nerol correctly, it is B. Seals who attacks Vito Mocella, unproven, not the other way round. Instead of making general statements about feud etc., one can answer: how can one write "Several group proposed ... " when the chronology of the scientific articles is clear? Why not answer this simple and clear question ? on the other hand, one only has to read the commentary articles of the 2015 article https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6895/metrics or simply The New Yorker paper paying attention to dates:2015 [1] VitoMocella68 (talk) 20:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The topic of this discussion is misleading, the discussion is not about self-citation, but about the correct sequence of experimental papers using phase-contrast tomography, i.e. the first one that showed that the technique worked successfully and the others that confirmed the result. The discussion, if it can be called a discussion since you are not answering on the merits, is about this. Can you answer on the merits? Do you think that citing a paper from late 2016 before one from early 2015, almost two years earlier, and saying "many groups have proposed ..." is just confusing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by VitoMocella68 (talk • contribs) 18:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@VitoMocella68: In my opinion you are engaged in WP:Disruptive editing. I'm considering different venues for WP:Conflict resolution, starting with a notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Dispute at Herculaneum papyri. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 09:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is not about a conflict of interest or disruptive edit, but about restoring a clear and unambiguous truth. Does St. have any factual argument to quote, other than an interview by Seals which is clearly not factual? For example, the page in Italian "Papiri di Ercolano", made by someone else supposedly a long time ago, clearly shows the correct primogeniture in the use of the technique. User St.Nerol , on the other hand, claims to quote a generic phrase such as "several group proposed and used phase contrast technique ... " in a chronologically random order and without any factual corroboration. Dear St.Nerol, can you answer with facts ? can you really seriously think that a work published two years later, using the same technique, can be put all together and says "Several group..."  ? VitoMocella68 (talk) 14:48, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've now made a notice about the situation at the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 14:32, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The Invisible Library". The New Yorker. 2015.
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