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Already covered in Immigration to the United Kingdom. No seperate notability. JASpencer 19:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've removed the tag. The article seems to have developed well from what started as basically an advert for a visa agency. Cordless Larry 15:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
how exactly does the british immigration services verfity whether or not these hsmp applicants are telling the truth about having certain qualifications or salaries or if they are just lying so they will get approved? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.244.236 (talk • contribs) 03:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting to note your 'advice' above Cordless Larry. The UK Home Office rarely verify documentation by contacting the source. In addition, they do NOT accept copies of degree certificates and payslips but instead insist upon original documentation, except in very rare and exceptional circumstances. Decisions are primarily made solely based upon the evidence provided and the format of such evidence. I also wonder why the link to HSMP Guidance Notes goes through uk.sitestat.com and not directly to the workingintheuk.gov.uk website? Spooky69 11:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Home Office guidance makes clear that original documents are required and that photocopies are not acceptable. With all due respect, I think it is always important to only advise on matters when you understand them. People might read such advice, believe it to be true and then waste several hundred pounds on a Home Office fee for an application that simply will not be approved. Spooky69 10:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
You interpreted the Home Office guidance, as they say that they "may seek to verify" and "can be ... verified" - entirely different to saying that they do or will. These are significant differences and the devil is in the detail, to coin a phrase. Anyway, this is probably not the place for discussions relating to the detail of such matters, suffice to say that I felt your initial response stating that "the Home Office will check and verify by contacting the source" could give people a false sense of security and your comment was a misinterpretation of the rules. Again, I am not trying to be awkward about this, but a small mistake can be very costly for people whose career relies on a correctly made application. I have no doubt that you were simply trying to be helpful, but this could result in someone not putting in suitable evidence on the basis that they think the Home Office will call their previous employer or University and check their claimed points, when the reality is that this is unlikely to happen and would usually result in refusal. As an example of the way that things currently work, a US citizen or Australian citizen must prove their English language ability in order to apply for the HSMP, but a Romanian citizen does not have to prove this. This is not something that you will find in HSMP guidance notes - it is buried much deeper. 62.49.218.194 09:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyone relying on Wikipedia to fill out their applications is probably asking for trouble. I'm suprised that no one has put up a link to the organization of lawyers which are accredited to work with the Home Office. Oh wait, that's commercial. Dr Vlach 22:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Of course! Follow those and you are bound to be approved, right? Sorry, but guidance notes simply do not tell the whole story. It is the difference between what someone says they will do and what they do in reality. Oh, and there is no self-assessment points calculator on the Home Office site... oh well, never mind... Spooky69 14:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't wish to be awkward about it Larry, but to say this is not supposed to be a guide to getting a visa seems a bit odd considering that you were the one giving incorrect 'advice' relating to making an application at the beginning of this section. I only posted my first comment in this section to ensure that people did not think such advice should be followed, as it would absolutely result in refusal. No offence intended, but it is probably best not to make comments about subjects unless you have a thorough understanding of them. In this way the content can be factual instead of simply guesswork or supposition. Anyway, I would not think that anything further needs to be added to this section. Spooky69 12:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
My issue was not with the "documentary evidence" aspect of what you said but with the "copies" statement, as I thought you were already aware. You have no need whatsoever to take my comments personally. I assumed you do not have a thorough understanding based upon your statements, which are not correct. Again, you stated above that you were answering a question about how the system works, but I will guess that you might have read some notes but have no experience of how the system actually works, again based upon your previous comments. Nobody with a thorough understanding of the subject would make such statements, hence I believe this to be a reasonable assumption. Nothing personal was meant by my comments - it was a simple statement of fact. Can I suggest that we leave it there? Spooky69 09:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I took down the link to a free HSMP calculator because when completed it led to a commercial site - looks like its a device to drum up business and therefore advertising. No thanks. --Spartaz 12:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, now I am confused. It was previously accepted that a link to an HSMP points calculator was of value to those reading the article. Are you therefore saying that I can completely re-write an article to ensure it is up to date and providing correct information, but I must link to any HSMP points calculator other than one on my website? I do not understand the logic in having again removed the link. It would also seem that the section on the MBA points provision links to a Financial Times page, whereas it really should link to the relevant page on the Home Office website. I will now go and correct this. With regard to the link to the HSMP points calculator, there are NO conditions on people using this on my website - no charge, no personal details required, no membership required - nothing. It seems odd to remove what is a popular and useful resource simply because it happens to be on my website. It is also worth noting that the points calculator on my website was the first on the internet to be updated to reflect the new rules, by which I am saying that anyone following a link to my points calculator from this article is assured of it reflecting the current situation - others on the internet took nearly a month to be updated. The link relating to conflicts of interest simply state that it should be 'avoided' but also make mention of the exception being links that would otherwise be considered as being useful - this is such a link and others here have said that it is a useful link. Or perhaps you are saying that people should not be provided with a useful link that requires nothing from the user if the provider of the article has anything to do with the site that the link points to? Are we suggesting that if I had come here and pretended to be someone else it would have been ok to leave the link there? This does seem somewhat ridiculous.Spooky69 11:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
No idea why this keeps getting removed - it is not in breach of the conflict of interest guidelines and, in fact, is in the interests of the readers of the article. It seems to me that there is a determined effort being made in this area and I have now spent more time discussing this than I did writing the original article which, incidentally, updated a hopelessly incorrect and out of date original article. Others have said the link is useful and the guidelines clearly state that the exception is where the link would otherwise be deemed to be useful - they have and it is - can we just leave things alone now? Spooky69 08:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Which would be fine if it were not for the fact that the only person that seems to be taking an interest in this is yourself and you seem determined to remove the link despite your previous comment - "perhaps I was a bit over-eager in removing the link to the points calculator. Cordless Larry 23:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)". So you were "over-eager" in removing the link but continue to do so? Sorry Cordless Larry, but I am entirely confused by this. Either you agreed that the link was useful and that you were "over-eager" in removing it or you think it is of no value to the readers of the article, OR you think that a link to a points calculator would be useful as long as it was nothing to do with the person that made the effort to write the article. Which is it? Spooky69 09:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, so you don't particularly have a problem with the link being there just as long as I don't put it there (?!) and I assume you will not put it back there, so we wait until 2020 until someone happens to come along and thinks it is a good idea? Perhaps you could revert it to where the link was in place - if someone else then comes along and thinks that the link is of no value then that can be discussed. The problem is, if it is only the two of us sitting here with differing views then nothing will happen, which does not seem reasonable. Again, the online assessment tool is an extremely popular and free resource, very useful to those reading the article and absolutely relevant to the article - it should be there. Spooky69 08:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The link is decidedly worthwhile. The HSMP calculator is free, and if someone really wanted to be fair there are a number of competing ones which could be listed. I fail to see how Spooky69 adding it is breach of any guidelines, as Cordless Larry's explanation would prohibit those who own copyright on a lot of (even potentially) commercial material from posting it on Wikipedia. Instead, it would have to be posted by someone else, who doesn't own the copyright, which would violate an even bigger Wiki No-No. Dr Vlach 22:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
So now we have to wait for 'experienced' editors? Do we have to have a certain number of people say the link is useful and should be placed before it goes back? Honestly, this seems to have been made into such a big deal. It has certainly put me off contributing further and I think the contributions that I have made provide some value and I know they are certainly accurate.
Having looked at the below post, perhaps if Dr Vlach or someone else were to put the link back then Cordless Larry would be happy with that? That would be in line with the advice given below...Spooky69 14:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
To confirm, I have no knowledge of Dr Vlach and find the allegations made by Cordless Larry to be rather offensive. An independent view was asked for and when one eventually comes along the only response forthcoming was to cast doubt on the poster of that view. Perhaps the wrong point of view was expresssed? Honestly, all this fuss over a link that most would agree provides a useful resource. I wonder what would happen if Dr Vlach were to place the link? Would it remain there for long...
Had to come back and make one more point. I am truly disappointed that there is such a focus on WHO has placed the link rather than whether or not the link is relevant to the article and is a useful resource to those who are interested in reading the article. Logic would suggest that the link should be there (in the absence of the magical non-commercial site to provide the resource). Spooky69 10:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's the link.
I recommend leaving it here on the talk page and waiting for uninvolved editors to evaluate it. If they decide it's worth having in the article they'll paste it there. If not, the page will eventually get archived. Best wishes. DurovaCharge! 15:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Most websites have some commercial aspect. I do not consider the link as being an advertisement - it is a resource and, for your information, it produces very few Client's compared to the large number of people that use it. It really is somewhat naive to think that you will get someone who truly knows the subject to provide a points calculator (and keep it updated with changes in law) and then simply place it on it's own little website without any commercial aspect simply to make people here feel happy - it is simply not going to happen... yet you would prefer people are without this resource. I truly do not understand what on earth the problem is. Spooky69 10:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought it may be wise to try and make the point in a more concise manner. It seems to me that the only people objecting to the link are those that have no real interest in the subject. Those that are interested in HSMP will benefit from the link and be interested in the free resource it provides. A link to the UK Home Office is deemed to be acceptable even though it is confusing for many and even though they charge quite high fees themselves (commercial?). This seems unreasonable and I think the reason for removing the link is fundamentally flawed. I see this as a point of principle, having spent time writing the article, hence the energy and time being spent arguing for why the link should be put back. Please also remember that Durova stated that the link could be replaced by someone other than me, but comments by yourself and Cordless Larry would indicate that it would be removed regardless. Spooky69 13:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
That was not the idea at all, but thank you for addressing my points and concerns... Spooky69 15:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I have read through article and the comments above. I myself am not affiliated with any of the companies and personally think that any calculator leading to a commercial website should not be included. I will try to find one online that is free with no commercial purpose or will host one free calculator somewhere. Regarding the legal advice I have added a section detailing the OISC and a link to OISC's website that list all of registered advisers. Feel free to edit or add to it. --Webkami 10:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Good luck, but I genuinely worry about someone outside of this industry trying to put up their own points calculator - updates and changes will no doubt be integrated immediately to reflect current policies on an ongoing basis? In my view, opinions expressed by those without serious experience (industry experience) are more often than not simply opinions, assumptions or worse, and certainly when it comes to matters of law. For an encyclopedic site I would think that facts are of more value. I would suggest that no link is better than a link that either is, or will eventually be, inaccurate. Spooky69 16:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Further to the above, the OISC already have a page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_the_Immigration_Services_Commissioner - this asks for links from relevant articles to be added. No idea how to do that, but it would seem to me that the legal section would be better served by a brief sentence and a link to the OISC wiki page. Perhaps CordlessLarry or someone else might know how to correctly apply the required edit. Spooky69 16:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Entire text of this page comes from one or two copyrighted publications that are found at the workingintheuk.gov website. The content seems to be entirely cut and pasted, and there is no visible permission for its use. Editing from Cordless Larry also seems to ensure that changes which are made have attributions and footnotes removed. Page should be collaborative effort that is not lorded over by one editor and attributions must be kept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RobFrancisEsq (talk • contribs) 17:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
This was NOT a cut and paste job. I have been in the immigration sector for many years and I wrote that article by hand, with some parts such as earnings points tables copied from MY website, which I WROTE. It is also worth noting that the previous content was incorrect in many areas and substantially out of date. This is NOT a copyright infringement in any way whatsoever. Even aside from this, the article was an expert interpretation of PUBLICLY AVAILABLE INFORMATION and NOT simply copied. I spent a lot of my time writing that article, which is an area of significant interest for a large number of people. Additionally, I do not view the link to the HSMP points calculator on my site as being linkspam - it is an extremely useful tool for people interested in this visa and does not require anything from the user - no personal details are required for the purposes of self-assessment on what was the first points calculator on the internet under the new HSMP rules. This was updated on the day of the changes being made and it should be seen as a useful resource that will always be kept up to date.Spooky69 11:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
EDIT TO THE ABOVE: It would appear that someone has over-written the article that I wrote with copied content from the Home Office. From the links contained in this, which do not go to the official UK Home Office website, I am guessing this was Cordless Larry. I have not read the article carefully as yet, but I hope that he is not providing any 'advice' or insight in the article, as he has already shown above that he does not have the knowledge to do so. No offence intended, merely an observation. So, what was wrong with the previous article that I wrote and why has it been over-written with text that does have a copyright attached? Spooky69 12:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The comments above are appreciated and possibly I was a little quick to jump. Simply put, this is a subject about which I feel strongly. And yes Cordless Larry, I should have checked thoroughly before making any comments - I should probably also have not left my previous comments there with a strikethrough. How does the article get taken back to a previous revision? Spooky69
Without wishing to open up old debates, I'm still concerned that this reads more like a guide to applying to the HSMP rather than as an encyclopedia article. I've done some copy-editing to remove what sounded like advice (i.e. the use of "you" when talking about the application process) but would like to get other people's opinions on this. Cordless Larry 18:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Now that the scheme is closed, do we need so much detail on how points were allocated? Per WP:NOTDIRECTORY, "Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed". If no one objects, I'll condense the information into a much shorter section. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I must say, whoever wrote this article is a complete idiot. How can you write an article on visas while leaving out the most important detail, the duration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.229.112 (talk) 05:19, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
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