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Now Fannie Buten is a pretty uncommon name. I found a 1930 census record of a Fannie Buten here [1] saying that she was living in Delaware, Pennsylvania at the time with her husband named Mathie and says that she was born in about 1901. Here [2] it says that Mathie was born in about 1900. According to here: [3] Buten moved from Austria to America in 1915.
And here [4] is a Fannie Buten at the time living in New York, New York that imm(em)igrated to the U.S. from somewhere. It may or may not be her. I figured that I'd just throw that in there.
Robert Young said that US Search isn't a primary source, meaning that it doesn't validate a person's age. But her age did change when she turned "claimed" 109 on February 1st. Is she disputed because of the census record? --Nick Ornstein (talk) 00:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Using citations from WOP should only be used where no other is available. It is unnecessary to update a previous citation just because it's mentioned on WOP, a citation that the claimant has celebrated a birthday is sufficient they are assumed to be still alive and awaiting verfication until they are either verified, debunked, die or are not reported to still be alive after the following birthday. WOP is not the ideal source as it is a messageboard forum and not an independent news authority (it may be regarded as a reliable authority because it includes information from GRG researchers but I'm not sure wiki should make such an exception), I think it is very close to coming under WP:SELFPUBLISH. It would be nice to find a more definitive statement on such sources (I'm sure I found one some time ago). DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 02:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Please note that the GRG has received documents validating the case of Rosalind Hill, born in St. Kitts in 1899 and died in NYC in 2010. Though not "high income," a valid case came from there (note that likely false cases have come from another Caribbean island, Dominica).
Therefore, I propose that the UNvalidated section on this list include:
All unvalidated, claims to birth that would result in the person being 110+ (such as born Feb 9 1900, alive on Feb 10 2010), requiring a citable source, for which the person is believed to be alive, and for which a claimed date, month, and year of birth are made, except those claims to 113+ (which are featured on the longevity claims page).
In my opinion, if someone says "I'm 110" but there's not even a date of birth or month of birth claimed, it cannot be put in proper order, and there is a strong suggestion that the age claim is based on oral, self-reported ages rather than a documented age.
It seems that most would agree. I note that exceptions (cases validated at age 113+) are extremely rare, and if they are validated they can be added to the validated list. Right? Another option is to use a cutoff of "anyone claiming to be older than the current oldest living recognized person." Ryoung122 02:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
With all due respect Mr Young, I don't agree with this. The Soledax Mexia and Rosalind Hill cases have been brought up before in these discussions but lets face it, they are the EXCEPTION and NOT the rule. Out of over 1000 cases verified by GRG only about 10 or so have come from non high-income economies. In the future I'm sure this number will increase greatly and we will have to re-evaluate it at some point but as of now the high-income economy criteria should he used. In fact, I'd say the current criteria is not strict enough. We shouldn't list people who immigrated from a non high-income economy country to a high-income economy country later in life. Obtaining early life records are a necessity when it comes to validating super-c cases. As such, it doesn't matter where a person lives now but where they were born. For Example, in this 111th birthday story for Elizabeth Buhler it specifically states that all of her early life records from the Ukraine were destroyed. The fact that she lives in Canada now is irrelevant. She cannot and will not be verified. I would like to say that I don't think claims from non high-income economies should be totally ignored by Wikipedia. So I would recommend that they be moved to the longevity claims page with an explanation on why they are unlikely to be verified.Tim198 (talk) 13:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I called my suggestion a "compromise" because there are many people that favor no standards. Having standards, but requiring them to be fair and impartial, is a sensible compromise to either "no standards" or "tough-to-qualify" rules.
The purpose of the second list is actually multiple, not one. First off, it provides a "waiting list" of cases of super-c claims that "just turned 110" and are likely to be verified. Fine. But a second purpose is to list people whose age appears possibly true, but unvalidated (such as this lady from Canada):
http://www.winklertimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2445989
The purpose of this page is to provide a list of "living" supercentenarians. However, there has to be some standard...right now, the List 1 includes "verified" cases. List 2 includes "unverified but likely verifiable" cases. What about a third list, "likely true but unverifiable" cases? This would include only those claims to age 110-112 with dates of birth. That is a fair standard that can be applied equally. I'm sure that most would be willing to include the "high-income economy" rule so long as a third list was included.
Remember, one of the core tenets of Wikipedia is that of pluralism...multiple major viewpoints should be presented, and LET THE READER DECIDE!Ryoung122 02:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
Wikipedia policies on NPOV state that multiple, major viewpoints should be included in an article (this is called pluralism). It is not the job of Wikipedia to present just the most-dominant point of view, then: it is Wikipedia's job to present multiple major viewpoints.
Clearly, List 1 (the validated list) presents the skeptics' POV: that is, we cannot know if unvalidated cases are true, so only validated cases should be listed.
List 2, currently, seems little more than a "waiting list." Supposedly a list of unvalidated cases, we have excluded:
A. longevity myths (130+) B. longevity claims (unvalidated claims to 113-130) C. claims missing month and day of birth, as well as year (even if the claim is "just" 110)
I agree with the above exclusions.
Next,
D. claims to 110-112 from nations that are NOT "high-income" economies
I will admit there is a correlation between income and literacy, but we have seen, for example, nations such as Saudi Arabia with "high" incomes but still lacking documentation, even for the birthdate of the Sultan. Right now, "high-income" is a proxy.
A better measure are nations "with a system of compulsory birth registration in place for 100+ years." That could include places such as St. Kitts (a British colony) but wouldn't help with Mexico. That could get complicated.
The real question is: with List 1 already expressing a skeptic's view, list 2 could be a little more nuanced. If we take the POV that a lot of people claim to be 110+, but just don't have documents (such as the "111" year-old woman in Canada who was born in the Ukraine), then where is that POV expressed? Where does a case cross the line from being at least 50% likely to be true to being less than 50% likely to be true? A study of American supercentenarian claims found that although 90% of Caucasian-American claims to age 110+ between 1980 and 1999 could be verified, just 50% of African American claims could be. That means, in reality, that we have outside-source, journal-article material to suggest there is a marked difference in the relative validity of claims, within America. Further, nations such as France have shown that immigrant claims are notoriously unreliable, with questionable claims from places such as Algeria, Polynesia, and China. So, simply living IN a "high-income" economy does no make a case likely to be true.
It has been suggested that immigrants born outside the "high-income" country should be excluded if they are "late-life" immigrants. I would go further and say that except for immigrants within a 20-year "early-life" window, those who migrated after 20 should not be considered for list 2 in its current form. The current rules of validation say that "early-life" documents are those issued within 20 years of the birth event (for example, Sarah Knauss was 19 when recorded in the 1900 census).
Now, we could argue that list 2 then serves the purpose as a "pending" list of cases likely to be validated.
Should we have a third list, however? The problem arises from cases from places like Poland, Singapore, etc. It is true that Poland has a history of dubious claims (recently, they have been mostly male; likely these men inflated their age to avoid war service). However, Poland has also recently started efforts to track centenarians, and they identified cases, such as a woman born Aug 5 1897, which seems not to be motivated by "personal" glory, but is instead a "national-list" type case. For cases like this, or Elena Bordeian of Moldavia, etc. I suggest we could make a third list. I would like to note that, by starting a list at age 110 (ground-up approach), and limiting it to under 113, we already cut off the vast majority of questionable cases. Most false claimants are going to start a claim with a ridiculous age. That's not true with Cuba, of course.
These are just some thoughts on where this page might go next.Ryoung122 04:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
The year of birth in her article has recently been amended to 1898 on the basis of this article from which much of her article has been taken/copied. The citation used for this article is this one which I would not consider to be a sufficiently reliable source. In her article many of The Straits Times citations (unfortunately not on the web), especially the earlier ones, imply 1899 or 1900 as the year of birth. Given the conflicting citations I would suggest that her year of birth is sufficiently unreliable to have her removed from the unverified list (at least until something more definitive is forthcoming). DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 00:47, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
So...can we begin here on the discussion as to whether or not that we can add the Low Income Economy country supercentenarians? Possibly talk about the advantages and disadvantages (pros and cons)? Or however you guys would normally discuss it? As we all know, it's breaking a Wikipedia rule. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 21:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 23:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The suggestion from me to include only claims from countries which had previously validated claims was not found to be a POV suggestion. And that's because the only function of the unvalidated list (and the reason for the 113-year cut-off) is to list claims which may be validated. I agree that the HIE criterion is POV. What was a constant critique was the "previously validated" criterion which would deny claims from tiny countries. No, it would simply omit those claims from the waiting list as said country (like Slovenia) had no previous validation and therefore had no track record of verification. There was NEVER a suggestion that those claims not on that list were "untrue," just that there was little chance for validation. Your complaints notwithstanding, there's nothing POV about that. Canada Jack (talk) 01:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Then we should simply state in the intro to the section that, owing to the large number of claims, and large number of claims which are neither verified nor disproven, the list is limited to people from countries who have previous verified claims. And we can also state that this is no way presupposes that listed claims are therefore likely to be verified or that non-listed claims are not true or will not be verified. And... Based on recent history, very few verified claims will likely emerge which have not already been on this list. In my books, we either do that, open the door to all claims, or move the list off the page. Canada Jack (talk) 18:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
My main problem is that "HIE" is deceptive. Juanita Alejandro was born in Mexico yet lives in the U.S. So she's listed now (as living in the USA) but not if she was born in Mexico? I suggest we can move all "born outside HIE countries" to list three.
I disagree with Siamese Turtle that we cannot make any judgment at all about the relative validity of a case. Like a weather man, we can have some idea that, for example, Grace Jones is going to be verified and that Saro Dursun is not. Dursun is a Turkish immigrant who has not even been seen in a media picture, only reported in a news story. Did she die years ago and no one updated it, because she moved back to Turkey?Ryoung122 20:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
From the GRG tables (as of Aug 2 2007):
age | number | surviving | mortality rate | |
Yearly | Cumulative | |||
123 | 0 | |||
122 | 1 | -1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
121 | 1 | 0 | 0.00% | 99.90% |
120 | 2 | -1 | 50.00% | 99.90% |
119 | 3 | -1 | 33.33% | 99.80% |
118 | 3 | 0 | 0.00% | 99.70% |
117 | 5 | -2 | 40.00% | 99.70% |
116 | 10 | -5 | 50.00% | 99.50% |
115 | 23 | -13 | 56.52% | 99.00% |
114 | 62 | -39 | 62.90% | 97.70% |
113 | 126 | -64 | 50.79% | 93.79% |
112 | 265 | -139 | 52.45% | 87.37% |
111 | 510 | -245 | 48.04% | 73.45% |
110 | 998 | -488 | 48.90% | 48.90% |
Cumulatively, among verified cases, of 998 persons reaching age 110, about 49% were dead by age 111; 73% by age 112; 87% by their 113th birthday; by their 115th birthday 98% were deceased. From this, I think we can see that the VAST MAJORITY of REAL supercentenarians die between age 110-114. Meanwhile, the vast majority of age claims to 115+, worldwide, are false or unverifiable. That means I think it is a good idea to split the "not verified" list into two sections. Probably the vast majority of the currently listed cases (aged 110-112 on list 2) will eventually be verified. In all likelihood, 99% of the claims on the longevity claims page will not be verified. The Maria Capovilla case was an extreme exception.
The reason I proposed a "list 3" on this page is that we have cases, like Josef Kowalski of Poland, that are tracked well before they turn 110. As such, it seems reasonable to give the case a three-year window. After three years, 87% of these claimants, if the age claimed is true, will be dead. For the remainder that are not, their continued survival makes the case statistically less and less likely. I note that Pawel Parniak of Poland claimed to be 116, but research showed that he was likely 111 and added five years to his age in an attempt to avoid war service in WWII (it didn't work). But even for a man like that, apparently 111 but claiming 116, he belonged in longevity claims. Adding even just five years makes the case stand out, a lot. Remember, from 998 cases at age 110, by age 115 only 23 are left (not inc. data after Aug 2 2007).Ryoung122 09:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia recognises him as a living World War I era veteran (see article on WWI veterans) and cites Polish reports from 2009. Should he not be added to the unverified supercentenarian list? ----englishadam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.217.244 (talk) 14:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Yes he should. To be put on the verified WW1 era list 3 years ago he had to produce discharge papers proving his birth date his start date of service and his discharge date of service. If these were not produced he would not be on the verified veterans list . All the checking on him was done 3 years ago. Why the experts dont have him at least on the unconfirmed 110 year old list is beyond me. Maybe the experts lost his paper work ? The man is still alive simply ask for another copy of his military records. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.70.179 (talk) 18:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
robertdouglasyoung@yahoo.com
Or check out the www.grg.org website.
The current criteria excludes cases like Kowalski because he comes from a non-HIE country (that is, not a "high-income economy"). While I agree that criteria should be amended, I would also point out that Poland has had men inflate their age, either to avoid war service or to sign up. Even the U.S. did. Frank Buckles claimed to be older than he was in order to join, as did John Babcock. In fact it was quite common for boys of 14, 15, 16 to claim to be older so they could join the service. This man looks old, but can you tell if he is 109 or 110 based on looks? Yakup Satar of Turkey claimed to be 110, but research suggests he was 109. Close, but no cigar.Ryoung122 06:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Your high income economy discrimination vs the non high income economy has no value. Germany is a high income economy but records from 1945 and before were mostly patched together guess work. During WW2 records were destroyed by bombing and at the very end shredded by the Nazis. To say records from Germany are correct and complete would be a joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.70.179 (talk) 16:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
76.17.118.157 (talk) 00:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Kowalski, Józef 01900-02-02 2 February 1900 110 Poland Polish Army 22nd Regiment Ułanów Last Polish-Soviet War veteran. Took part in September Campaign in World War II and later held in concentration camp. Poland's oldest man. Lives in Tursk, near Sulęcin.[12][13][14][15] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 12:52, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
Just checking this page here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/World_Bank_income_groups.svg
Note that SAUDI ARABIA is listed as a "HIE". Yet, it is a nation with such a poor track record of recordkeeping that even the birth records for many of the Sultans born in the 20th century are nonexistent.
This shows to me that "HIE" is an UNtenable position. It does not accurately divide the "reliable" from the "unreliable" or the "verifiable" from the "unverifiable." Standards of literacy and systems of recordkeeping do a far better job of that than income level, which may be influenced by such factors as an "oil strike."
One option is to delete the second list, and move a list of potentially verifiable claims to the "talk" page, where the standard should be "any claim to 110-112" with a citation and birthdate, from anywhere in the world.
I suggest we have another vote round.
I suggest we have a "elimination" system where we drop the two proposals with the fewest "ivotes" and then have a final round between the top two vote-getters.Ryoung122 20:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Proposal 2. Canada Jack (talk) 15:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I vote for proposal 4. I've already explained why I don't like options 2 and 3. Option 1 also has its flaws, most importantly that it's based upon criteria against NPOV and it would not be possible to explain the split in the article. Where is the justification for separating claims by country? Not all countries are listed by the World Bank, and with the global economy as it is we could see people flipping between the lists. SiameseTurtle (talk) 16:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Well, it seems that Proposals 1 and 4 have the most support.
I'm going to suggest a final discussion, either create a "list 3" or drop the HIE requirement.
Please note that here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_national_longevity_recordholders
We have listed AT LEAST 11 "living national recordholders" whose age has not been internationally verified, including cases from Eastern Europe and the Caribbean. If anything, I think we need someone like Derby to be more strict THERE. A lot of the "recordholders" represent little more than fanboy wishes (for example, the man listed as India's oldest man hasn't been cited as India's oldest person in a reliable source). If anything, unvalidated cases there should be marked with a different coloration (perhaps a reddish background) or deleted altogether.
Since I like both the list 1 and list 4 options, it's like to hear what option Derby would like to use, if he had to pick one.Ryoung122 22:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Proposal 4. We can't go with #1 as even if we have a LIE list, the HIE criterion is still arbritary. Canada Jack (talk) 04:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
An Outside View: I am not a member of this group, but I use these lists all the time. Please THINK CAREFULLY before you change it. The system you have is NOT TOO BAD, even with its attendant unsatisfying elements. You have a standing verified list and an unverified list - a sort of waiting room of supercentenarian candidates. This fits the scientific method: a hypothesis is put, it is tested and either rejected or accepted; or awaits further testing. The issues you are trying to address with the LIE and HIE criteria are the three subsets of: bona fide claims (no documentation), false claims (persons claiming years far in excess of their actual age) and exaggerated claims(those genuinely old but with a few years tacked on.) If you go down this path, you could end up with lists everywhere. Best to use the Keep It Simple principle. If I was voting I would probably chose 'proposal 4' (with maybe notes on the side or colour (color?) coding for fine tuning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.170.126 (talk) 07:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
I change my mind. I want proposal 4 instead. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 22:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Proposal 4. As we base the claims list on having a reliable source stating their claimed date of birth, there's no issue with WP:Verifiability. SiameseTurtle (talk) 23:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Personally I like the idea of a third list because that supports the pluralistic viewpoint, but others don't, so I think we should simply go with Proposal 4 and drop the HIE requirement.Ryoung122 12:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Like the big-state, small-state controversy (solved with a bicameral legislature), sometimes the best way to achieve consensus is to let each side have something.Ryoung122 05:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I think we should have three lists if the separation between the 2nd and 3rd list were something that could reflect the probabilty of validating an extreme age claim. The HIE/LIE criterium doesn't correspond to that. Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea are HIE countries while Poland and Hungary are not. Do you believe that is more likely to validate a Saudi claim than a Polish?(Maybe is my eurocentric POV talking)Japf (talk) 17:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1515205
The results of the matched records for the residual file indicate that over 90% of the whites were accurately reported as supercentenarians, but only half of the blacks appeared to have attained age 110.
I suggest we simply make a note at the beginning of list 2, indicating that cases from nations with compulsory birth registration and a long history of recordkeeping (100+ years) are far more likely to have claims validated than those from nations without a history of central government birth registration. Comments such as these are certainly NOT "original research." No need to add color codes, as everyone in the list is unverified, according to outside sources.Ryoung122 23:34, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Having these non-HIE countries included makes this article inconsistent. If the verified cases are in the HIE nations and the unverified can be from any country, this makes this article very weak. This needs to be separated into 2 articles to have any credibility.— Preceding unsigned comment added by IARXPHD (talk) 05:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC) Sorry, I didn't mean to be an un-signing stalker... I have seen how to do it now.IARXPHD (talk) 18:48, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that the correlation of HIE countries and validated claims and LIE countries with unvalidated claims is not perfect. The previous status quo was saying that if a person comes from a HIE country his/her claim had more likehood to be true. Although this statement is true, when you apply it to each specific person, this only may be called discrimination, and goes against wikipedia rules. Japf (talk) 19:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
She claimed to have been born on February 20, 1900 in Spain. Here is an update on her 109th birthday http://www.lavozdegalicia.com/galicia/2009/09/27/0003_7997654.htm . Did she make it to 110? --Nick Ornstein (talk) 23:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Greetings,
Part of the point of having an "unverified" list is to provide a different perspective from the "validated" list, which includes stricter requirements (such as proof of being alive in the past year). I think a two-year window is reasonable...part of the rationale of having a list with somewhat less strict requirements is to "cast the fishing net wider." Sometimes, people are still alive even without a birthday report (Edna Parker was featured at age 109 and again at age 111, but not at 110; same with Gladys Hawley of the UK), and listing them for a second year would do better, in my opinion, than deleting without proof of death, either.
Besides, if we make the criteria too strict, we are simply "validating" this list. Right? I think a moderate approach would be a good idea.Ryoung122 21:41, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Spain's oldest person died this week.
This is an example of why I consider the three-list system better. Here's a solution aside from the "original research" problem of HIE: cases that are listed on the GRG with "at least one validating document" could be listed in a "pending" list in the middle.
http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/639055/0/muere/anciana/reus/
Ryoung122 23:54, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
What I wrote for the "unvalidated" section is NOT "original research" but a summary of what we know about the likelihood of supercentenarian cases to be accepted.
There is plenty of research already published:
www.springer.com/sociology/population.../978-3-642-11519-6 - Cached
www.demogr.mpg.de/books/odense/6/08.htm - Cached
www.supercentenarian.com/semi-supercentenarians.html - Cached
www.medscape.com/viewarticle/547228_4
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0531556500002503
biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/63/11/1201
Let me also say this: we know that the mortality rate at age 110 is higher than at age 95. So, if someone is 95 and claims to be 110, they are less likely to die than a real 110-year-old. More than that, suppose we have four persons who claim to be 110: two are 110; one is 109; one is 95. If the 95-year-old lives 10 more years, they would be "120" on paper but 105 in reality. Meanwhile, those who really were 110 likely died off well before reaching 120. Even the 'off by one year' case is far more likely to die first than the person who adds 15 years to one's age.Ryoung122 20:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Robert, you only need to put the right reference on the right place. If your statement was just common sense no one would believe Maria Olívia da Silva 130th birthday claim. People have to be convinced that is extremely difficult to reach the 110th birthday and the mortality rate is very high. So you need to put the references you put here in the text. Japf (talk) 21:11, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I do think that we could use adding citations, and I did list some articles for further reading. I don't think I should have to do all the work (and some of the articles include my name, so it would be better for a third party to do the citations).Ryoung122 04:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
So you're admitting selection bias in favor of the "oldest cases first"? Yes, but research into memory shows that we often remember the beginning and the ending of a sequence. Cases just over 110 also are more likely to be validated because they "just turned 110" and both the family and validators are more likely to give the case impetus. Cases are also more likely to be verified near a birthday. Yes, there are minor fluctuations in observation bias and selection bias. However, I doubt if that bias is enough to overcome the general trend that the higher the age claimed, the less likely the case is to be verified, or that cases that have had more than two years to be verified, but still aren't, are more likely to be cases where the records simply don't exist or are difficult to locate. Further, the beginning/ending bias tends to cancel each other out.
As for real numbers: if you read some of those papers I mentioned, they have real numbers. For example, 90% of Caucasian-American claims in the SSA study were validated, but only 50% of African-American claims. Thus, we can cite actual, documented, scientific research that showed that the level of validation varied within the U.S. Other reports, from Europe for example, have similar notations. I agree that the question of validation for countries with little or no records is an issue, but the real point is that "less than 10%" chance doesn't make that seem impossible. We have seen isolated validations from Colombia, Mexico, Ecuador, St. Kitts, etc. However, the vast majority of claims from those nations have NOT been accepted, such as the "142" year-old man from Ecuador that turned out to be only 96.Ryoung122 21:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Why has Margaret Fish been deleted from this list. She was numner 45 2 days ago and is still alive and well. Her family are actually gathering in Wilstead, England to celebrate her 111th birthday on 7 March 2010. B. Hartgill121.44.231.36 (talk) 23:44, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
http://oldestinbritain.webs.com/oldestlivingbritons.htm
Ryoung122 12:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
The above comments have actually astounded me. Some anonymous source in the government declares Margaret Fish is dead, and you guys beleive it???? Then you guys want to wait for the press to dispute the claim???
Sounds like a spy thriller to me. I think you people want to get your act together - Pronto. Suffice to say the Fish family are dicusted. B. Hartgill121.44.231.36 (talk) 13:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_premature_obituaries
On the other hand, Wikipedia has regularly had false reports on death. For example, the Kama Chinen article was vandalized last week. If you check many articles on oldest living persons, they are often regularly vandalized by anonymous IP addresses claiming the person died, only for everyone to find out that was not the case. So, yes, there needs to be precautions taken to ensure that the information is correct.Ryoung122 13:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
http://keenesentinel.com/articles/2010/03/07/news/local/free/doc4b93e9d20eee1839489847.txt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.89.41 (talk) 00:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I suggest locking Neva Morris' and Mary Josephine Ray's articles until the media attention begins to die down. Ray and Bailey passed away yesterday. And for the most part so far, Mary Jo. Ray has received a heck of a lot of media attention ever since. Alot of articles say Neva Morris is the new oldest American. Can we do that? We already had one vandilizer on her page so far. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 23:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
What does the J stand for and why does it need to be initialised? BrendanologyContriB 11:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I understand a lot of this stuff now that I have been doing my research, but the one thing I can not figure out...Why would someone pretend to be 111 when they're really 109?? (or something like that) Do they just want publicity? Do they really not know how old they are? I just don't get it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.88.163 (talk) 02:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, thank you for your help. I guess even at that age you might still lie, I just thought they were such good people that they couldn't lie but they are people like everyone else. By the way, this is the same person that wrote the first comment, I just wasn't signed in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdisnard (talk • contribs) 13:57, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
i think she needs an article, shes the oldest person in louisiana, the oldest african american, and not to mention, the last surviving child of slaves, plus there are articles about her. 65.0.27.97 (talk) 16:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
This text was removed from under the headline "Other cases" by user:Frank as unhelpful and unencyclopedic : " It should be noted that some cases come from nations (such as the United Kingdom) with compulsory birth registration and a central government register of documents; these cases are more than 90% likely to be eventually verified.[citation needed][original research?] Others come from nations that, historically, have had few or no verified cases, and thus one can infer that their likelihood of verification will be small (less than 10%).[citation needed][original research?] Since cases of persons just turning 110 are often less likely to be processed, the reader can infer that cases nearer the top of the list are less likely to be verified.[original research?] For example, if someone is now listed as age 112, the case had more than two years to produce sufficient evidence of age. In addition, studies have shown that the validation rate for cases decreases, the higher the age claimed (in part because the true cases, if younger than the false/exaggerated claims, will be more likely to die first).[citation needed] Thus, this list can be viewed, inferentially, as a sliding scale of believability.[original research?] "
I think there are some interesting statistics there & some of it may perhaps be used, if rewritten in a more encyclopedic way. It looks like original research, but someone may be able to find verifications somewhere - if not now, then perhaps when the Max Planck Institute's book on "Supercentenarians" is out in July. Hepcat65 (talk) 08:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
A video of Maria Virginia Pestana was released here: http://cosimoderondo.blogspot.com/2010/04/111-maria-virginia-pestana-fundou.html
--Nick Ornstein (talk) 02:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Lets actually leave it up this time. 12.177.224.253 (talk) 16:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree with SiameeTurtle. Someone found the report about Jeanne Gagnard. That person whoever (s)he is doesn't have the obligation to follow Mrs. Gagnard case. The case became known to the Wikipedia, and now anyone can look for the confirmation that she is alive or not. If the person that found these case didn't put it on the list, this case could have been lost. Remember that Wikipedia may be a guide for the GRG or oldest people discussion group, since we try to find new unverified cases independently of them. I see no arm to a list of almost 110-year-olds.Japf (talk) 00:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I'd say let's be practical here. This is a subject where numerous disparate sources are at play, many not obvious or easy to find. If there is no similar compiled list elsewhere on some public forum, I'd say we should keep this here, despite the qualms about it being outside the normal bounds of wikipedia. Derby, I think you are right in the technical sense that such a list is outside the scope of a wikipedia discussion page. However, the practical reality is there is no similar list elsewhere to inform people of who is near 110 and who therefore to watch for when their 110th birthday approaches. Or, at least, no easily accessible list which a casual reader might find. The list therefore keeps many who otherwise might not be aware to keep an eye out. Given the broad international nature of readership here, this is an enormous tool for improving and keeping the page as accurate and up-to-date as possible.
If we extend the baseball analogy, there are numerous people keeping track of sports stats, but there are only a relatively narrow range of things to keep track of. Some thirty teams or so, in the case of major league baseball. So there is little need to have, in a discussion page, lists of player stats or what have you as they are readily available and are easy to find elsewhere. We need not, for example, list the number of game won and lost by the San Diego Padres so the main page can be updated at the end of the season: such information is readily accessible elsewhere. Not so on this subject, where cases can and do pop up literally anywhere and often have scant or one-off coverage. The more people are aware of 108-and 109-year-olds out there, the closer these cases can be tracked. And wikipedia seems to be the place to go for those most involved in the subject, like Robert, and others more casually involved, like myself. Canada Jack (talk) 22:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Let's face it, we have four years until Ms. Masters is in contention for the world title, at earliest. I detest the relentless focus on Wikipedia for "immediate updates of everything" which does not give time or proper space to, for example, historic cases from the past.Ryoung122 20:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Link for Gail Stites http://www.dailyiowegian.com/people/local_story_338115522.html Tuyvan (talk) 08:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I won't discuss the fact that it would indeed take four years until Ms. Masters will be in contention for the world title, the point is that the list of 'unverified' claims seems to get longer and longer and the only 'accepted' source is the Gerontology Research Group, which isn't updated that much. When it comes to verification, if it involves people from countries like Britain or the Netherlands (where I live), you can be absolutely sure that the person in question has indeed reached the age of 110. That is something which can't be said for - for instance - the USA, where they don't seem to have any birth registers. My point is that the list of 'verified' claims has (at the moment) 78 people on it. Someone who sees that list, could be mistaken and think that there are 'only' 78 supercentenarians alive, while the correct number could easily be (somewhere around) 140 or 150. (And with such a long list of unverified claims you would almost tend to think that all of these people on the list are frauds. ;-))
I believe you are OFF for several reasons.
1. The "unverified" list on this page is meant to be a list of potentially validatable cases. The length of the list does not mean that "most" of the cases listed are false or true. It means that the number of claims that Wikipedia has identified is growing.
2. The GRG list adds a disclaimer that the primary purpose is to provide a list of validated candidates for the world's oldest person title (and other titles, such as 'oldest man'), not to provide a statistically valid sample (which tends to require cohort extinction first and relying on sources other than news reports to ensure that all cases have an equal chance of discovery) and not to provide a real estimate of the world's supercentenarian population (note the estimate is 300-450 on the Table E list). However, I do think the GRG list serves as a hedge against unrealistic claims. For example, in the year 2000 it was claimed that Lottie Elliott, 109, was the "world's oldest person" (from England, as usual!). With a list of 78 verified persons aged 110+, I think most people will realize that age 109 is not old enough to be in contention for the world's oldest person title, based on this information.
3. Regarding Ms. Masters: you are probably from the UK. The GRG list already leans heavily in favor of the UK, Italy, and Belgium (due to these countries having both easily-accesible systems of public recordkeeping and a public tradition of reporting on their oldest persons). In France, records are fairly easy to get but there is less interest (the French have Jeanne Calment to look up to; who cares that a French lady is 110, some may think) and thus France is underrepresented. Germany has historical issues problems...its top 3 oldest persons were born in what is now the Ukraine, and records are difficult to come by. The plethora of historical boundary changes amongst the German Empire, Austria-Hungary, the Russian Empire, etc. is a big mess. German cases from western Germany may be easier, but they also suffered huge military and civilian casualties in two wars.
4. The GRG is not the "only accepted source," the www.recordholders.org site, which hosts Louis Epstein, is also used as a backup. But Ms. Masters isn't on that yet, either.
In the U.S., birth registration was not compulsory for all states until 1933 (though some states, like Massachusetts, had complete records in the 1870s). Records for Southerners and African-Americans, in particular, are more difficult. More than that, however, the US has no central registry of centenarians (like the UK, Belgium, Germany, etc. do) and so researchers must rely on either news reports and family reports (both of which can be checked for census matches) or records that become available after death. This means that the U.S. information can become fairly complete after 4-5 years, but not initially.
So, I do question where there is a value in creating a list overloaded with cases from "easy to get" countries. You mentioned Catherine Masters, born Nov 23 1899. Catherine Carter of Kansas was born Nov 22 1899 and there's a 1900 census match listing her as born in Nov 1899. So which Catherine should be done first? Why are you concerned about one Catherine, but not the other?Ryoung122 20:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
In response a few answers from me. I don't want to take part in this discussion, I just asked one simple question why it would take so long for one person to become validated. And I do have some problems with the GRG. I think their working method of validating supercentenarians is not that well done. For instance, the GRG works with country correspondent volunteers and not every country does have one. So there you go, supercentenarians from those countries aren't going to be recognized that easily.
Then, regarding Ms. Masters. No, as I stated earlier, I'm not from the UK, I'm Dutch. But your point seems to be that you don't want the list to lean to heavily in favour of some countries. In that case you could almost discount all the Japanese or Americans, because the list also leans a lot in those directions. Speaking for myself, I don't care if loads of people from the same country are on the list, as long as they deserve to be on the list. I asked about the case of Ms. Masters because I'd read earlier about her, seen her on the BBC News and found it strange it took some time for her to get on the list. I agree you have to be very sure if you validate a supercentenarian, but the argument you don't want the list to lean to much in one direction doesn't make sense to me.
For all the rest, it was just one simple question and I don't wish to take part in this discussion, I would leave that to others. Thank you. - Guidje. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.159.72.206 (talk) 12:52, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm reinstating the limbo cases list. Just because someone doesn't have a birthday report doesn't mean there dead. This is particularly true for Japan where it's become very rare to get information on super c's outside of the respect the elders day in September.Tim198 (talk) 12:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
is Manuela Fernandez Lopez 20 February 1900 F &0000000000000109.000000109 years, &0000000000000360.000000360 days Spain still alive, if not then prove it. 74.249.144.205 (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
dont remove her name, is she alive or not, at least tell me why that name keeps getting removed!!!!!!!!!!!!! 74.226.167.135 (talk) 21:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I was wondering, where do you get all these names from? And yes, could we please remove people who have been on the list for >1 week(?) past their 110th birthday. I notice the list is starting to get clogged up with people who have no 110th birthday reports. BrendanologyTalK 13:00, 18 February 2010 (UTC)