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Elizabeth line[edit]

As a (generally) non-geeky non-Londoner - like most readers - I would have expected to find in this article some mention of other lines that are closely related to (not part of) the London Underground. Readers should not be having to scratch their heads wondering why a new line in London is not covered, or even mentioned to any significant extent, in an article where many would expect to find it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should be listed in See Also, along with the Overground, DLR etc. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 08:59, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but I'm not sure that's enough. A paragraph on the Underground's relationship with other lines would not go amiss. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:03, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The history of the London Underground is inextricably entwined with other railways. The first London Underground line - the Metropolitan - began as a link between other railways: its line from Bishop's Road (where it made an end-on connection with the Great Western) to Farringdon and Smithfield Market included a link to the Great Northern at Kings Cross. One paragraph is far short of what would be required: whole books have been written on, for example, the routes between Finsbury Park, Highgate, Edgware and Barnet. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:06, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As an example, the Paris Métro article goes into some reasonable detail about the RER development and how that impacted the Métro. Turini2 (talk) 11:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How about something like this in the TfL era section - some summary sentences, but enough to interest the reader to click further for more.
Under TfL, London's public transport network became more unified with the creation of London Overground in 2007. Throughout the late 2000s and 2010s, existing suburban rail lines across London were upgraded and rebranded, with the former East London line became part of the Overground network. Many Overground stations interchange with Underground ones, and Overground lines were added onto the Tube map.
In the 2010s, the Crossrail project was built at a cost of £XXbn to connect two mainline railways with a new east west tunnel under central London, similar to Paris' Réseau Express Régional. Designed to increase rail capacity and reduce cross London journey times, the line opened as the Elizabeth line in May 2022. Although not part of the Underground, the line connects with many stations, with the project rebuilding and expanding several central Underground stations including Tottenham Court Road.
The history section also needs some more on the 1970-80s malaise (collapse in ridership, spiral of decline, lack of maintenance etc) and the 2000s/2010s resurgence in ridership & upgrade works (including more on the PPP, accessibility etc) Turini2 (talk) 12:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So I made these edits - and some more about recent TfL era stuff. Tried to be succinct - but made sure to cover the major stuff (PPP and upgrade work, record ridership, 7/7 etc). Still needs more on the 1970-80s malaise (collapse in ridership, spiral of decline, lack of maintenance etc) to be an actual history section rather than just events. Turini2 (talk) 18:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Bazza 7 Sorry, I forgot we'd actually talked about this and sought consensus on Overground/Elizabeth line inclusion (at a cursory, explanatory level). Sorry about that. Turini2 (talk) 18:40, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Tbh, the DLR could be mentioned, but it would be a bit of a shoehorn. Perhaps in the JLE bit? The Jubilee Line Extension also further connected the Underground to the Docklands Light Railway, which first opened in 1987 to serve the Docklands redevelopment in east London. or in the "TfL has integrated everything" bit. Turini2 (talk) 18:44, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I agree with Murgatroyd49 - only needs to be in See Also. If it's not part of the Underground - and that's made expressly clear in the article - why does it need to be there? The article makes out the EL (and Trams, LOL, DLR) are not part of the Tube/Underground, so any mention of them is (imo) superfluous and a waste of space. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 18:50, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And if there's some discussion about it, feel free to send a link... Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mattdaviesfsic Ah, but I think it's relevant to the history of the Tube - given the whole purpose of the EL is to reduce overcrowding on the Tube and improve the transport network generally. It gives enough information and context to allow readers to explore further, without going into super detail. As I mention above, the Paris Metro article has a good way of discussing the RER - why it was built and how it impacted the Metro. That's what I was going for!
The Overground gets mentioned because it was part of the Tube, of course. The case for mentioning the DLR ... less so. Turini2 (talk) 21:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but I don't think it needs quite the same emphasis, is what I was/am trying to say. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 21:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Turini2 No problem, and I understand the need to mention the EL poaching LU passengers. But I do think that the detail about the cost and being similar to Paris is off-topic for the LU article. (And "connects with many stations" suggests a lot more than "several" which might be more accurate.) Perhaps In the 2010s, the Crossrail project built a new east–west railway tunnel under central London.[1][2] By increasing rail capacity, the line aims to reduce overcrowding on the Tube and cut cross-London journey times.[3] The railway opened as the Elizabeth line in May 2022.[1] Although not part of the Underground, the line connects with several Underground stations, and the project involved rebuilding and expanding several central Underground stations including Tottenham Court Road and Whitechapel.[1][3] Bazza (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Bazza 7 That looks good - the reason I left the cost in there was to provide some context about scale of the project - it's not an easy £50m thing, it's a multi billion pound megaproject. Again, just to provide enough information/context to be useful without being overly detailed. Turini2 (talk) 09:25, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Turini2 Glad we agree. I've changed the article to use the text above with the addition of the cost, and a reordering of the sentences to place project first, aims second, and result third.
I haven't looked into the figures, but if the EL has indeed resulted in the anticipated shift of passengers, then a final sentence to reflect that might usefully be added. Bazza (talk) 10:33, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Bazza 7 Great - I think we might have to wait a little for that :) Turini2 (talk) 17:30, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One option - the absolute minimum necessary, it seems to me - would be to have a subsection in the "See also" section, that lists the other lines (like the Elizabeth line) which link with, and by non-experts are easily confused with, the London Underground. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There should be more than that. The EL, DLR, Overground, Tramlink and even Thameslink these days appear on the tube map, so a brief section noting what they are is IMHO essential so people new to the tube or looking at the map for the first time know what's going on.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b c "Elizabeth line: What is Crossrail and when does it open?". BBC News. 24 May 2022. Retrieved 8 August 2022.
  2. ^ "Elizabeth line: almost 50 years in the planning for Crossrail – timeline". the Guardian. 2022-05-20. Retrieved 2023-01-10. Proposals for east-west train route across London, first mooted in 1974, inspired by Paris RER
  3. ^ a b "Elizabeth line: Crossrail complete after decades of struggle". the Guardian. 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2023-01-10.

Inclusion of additional lines[edit]

there are also other lines and types of train lines which are available and are listed on the so called "tube map" like DLR, district line and Elizabeth aren't they part of the metro system which allows people to commute daily? The Duke of Mars (talk) 16:07, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make, but things like the DLR and EL are just part of the wider TFL network, not the London Underground. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for making that clear I understand why they are not included. The Duke of Mars (talk) 17:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Waterloo & City Line[edit]

Why did they make the waterloo and city line if it only has 2 stops with none in between the terminals? Imadethis123 (talk) 10:58, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To link Waterloo station with the City of London, the clue is in the name. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 11:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But why not add more stations, not just Bank to Waterloo? Imadethis123 (talk) 11:30, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why? Murgatroyd49 (talk) 11:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So it would be more like a proper underground line not just a short 3 minute link Imadethis123 (talk) 11:45, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you read the history of the line to understand the rationale behind its construction. There is no where useful you could add another station. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 11:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
thank you. Imadethis123 (talk) 12:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Map Mistake[edit]

There is a mistake on the map!

Because of the new Battersea Link it shows that Kennington is closer to Elephant & Castle than Borough, but in fact Borough is much closer. That illusion is there because they had to add the Battersea link Imadethis123 (talk) 11:52, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Imadethis123: There are several maps in this article, which specific one do you mean? But assuming that you mean the well-known Tube map, it's a Topological map - the spacings between the stations bear no relation to reality. Instead they are mostly drawn at even intervals to allow all the names to fit in, particularly in the central area, and to make it nice and neat. --Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 18:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about the ones you get at the ones you get at stations.
Tube map Imadethis123 (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Imadethis123 As Redrose64 explains above, the Tube map is not an "accurate geographic map" - more of a diagram of Tube lines. Another example of how the map distorts reality would be Lancaster Gate tube station, which is very close to Paddington station in real life. If you want a geographical map, they are available on Wikimedia commons here London Underground geographic maps Turini2 (talk) 18:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

add template:Rapid transit OSM map[edit]

I noticed the Bilbao metro page has an interactive slippymap based on OSM data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilbao_metro#/map/0

it'd be great to set this up for the underground page too ^-^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Rapid_transit_OSM_map Endim8 (talk) 10:49, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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