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I removed the sentence about George Allen because it was POV at best, was poorly written, did not fit where placed in the article, and really didn't serve to further the understanding of the term Macaca as a racial slur. Beatdown 01:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove citation needed tag unless a verifiable reference is added to resolve the issue of different pronunciations for the two different words. The word macaque doesn't automatically equal the word macaca any more than homo equals human ... or equals ape, or equals chimp. Still need a cite. - 69.19.14.31 04:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Verification is the editors' burden, and there's a week without needed citation on totally unsupported macaca=macaque wording.66.82.9.54 05:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Need a citation suppporting the first sentence that macaca is also spelled macaque. Please add a citation that macaca (pronounced mə-kä’kă), is also written as macaque, pronounced mə-kăk’ or mə-käk’.69.19.14.19 14:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Albert Gore and Hillary Clinton made comments this AM that George Allen was a man of character and wit and THAT HIS COMMNENTS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT given his years of working for good of the minority. They suggested that his comment was to have included the word "mohican" and he was just tired from the many hours of service in the pursuit of good government. If its good enough for Al and Hillary, then its good enough for me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.104.205.42 (talk • contribs) 10:41, 3 September 2006.
The white supremacy code-word section contained no valid citation. The attributed link (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-ethnic-slurs#M) contains nothing about white supremacist code-words. Someone find a source if you want it to go back up. Edbanky 02:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Something needs to be said about "macaca effect" phrase in high tech. Included the following:
Although the phrase "macaca effect" originally had a political meaning in the Virginia Senate race, it now has taken on a new meaning in the world of high tech. Liz Davidson writes:
What is the "macaca effect"? First of all, what is a macaca? A "macaca" is a racial pejorative to refer to someone either from or with ancestry from India or Pakistan. And the "macaca effect" is pejorative used by people in high tech to refer to East Indians driving down the wages of American and British workers. In many fields (computer programming, engineering, medicine, nursing, accounting, etc.) companies are faking labor shortages to acquire an H1B visa and hire East Indians, with the net effect of driving down the wages of American and British employees. Thus, one hears disgruntled employees talking about the "macaca effect."[1]
http://www.magic-city-news.com/Guest_Column_89/What_is_the_Macaca_Effect10562.shtml
References
Request for comments: I put the nationmaster definition and the blog source info back in substantially rephrased and in the 'Usage' section, rather than in the more definitive top section, because the blog source particularly was one of the first to research the word and demonstrated current use in the racist community. I thought it was probably more germane than how Captain Haddock uses the word, so I was suprised to see it gone again. I'm going to post this message in the talk section and ask for comments about reinstating the info. I'm suprised to be accused of 'flinging links' because checking the history of this page will show that I have provided nearly all of the sources on the origins and usage of the word other than the Edgerton references in footnotes 2 and 3, and I believe that the are all legitimate, scholarly, and valid. Richardjames444 12:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
The references were: Nationmaster.com list of ethnic slurs and Jeffrey Feldman on racist use of Macaque/Macaca in online forums
Since they're descriptive of usage rather than addressing definition, I think that they should be added back in. Richardjames444 12:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but was this page created specifically in reference to the Allen controversy? I see lots of claims about how macaca is used as an ethnic slur, but absolutely no citation. If Allen's "inside knowledge" of French prompted him to use this "slur" that "no one else will understand," (not that knowledge of a language brings with it knowledge of all the slang and insults used in that language) why didn't he use the real slur: macaque? The first edit I can see for this page ever was after the Allen controversy broke. Let's not go around creating controversy, eh? If this is really a commonly used slur, find the citation. Otherwise, all you're doing here is making up a story that doesn't exist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Datroy (talk • contribs) .
Or could it have been that there's simply no story here? People heard Allen call a kid an odd name. They claimed he was singled out because of his race, yet it is clear from the video he was singled out because he was from the opposition and videotaping the event. Afterwards, people were absolutely certain that, even though no one had ever heard of this word, it was a very bad word. So they created a story where none previously existed.
So if it was a white kid he would have both a) used an obscure racial slur and b) said "welcome to America"?
Like the idea of the article -- but to convince people of its accuracy, doesn't it need some linkage to credible sourcing? At the moment, readers more or less have to take our word for it. --GGreeneVa 12:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree, there is no documentation at all, and I've had a hard time finding any. This is a particular blatant NPOV problem, especially given the fact that it doesn't mention the most obvious meaning, "stooge" or "puppet" ("dancing monkey").
Yes, we need to work on sourcing, but I don't think anyone can deny that this term does exist and is in usage (especially given the latest). If nothing else, there should be newspaper articles out of Virginia on what the Senator said. --Cyde Weys 13:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
If this is a pre-existing racial slur, there ought to be documentation. If there is no documentation that it has been used before as an obvious slur, then saying that it is a slur in the article seems to be taking one side of a political disputation. KevClark64 14:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Read the Washington Post article already linked - it talks about the slur somewhat. And no, it's not a political dispute that macaca is a racial slur. --Cyde Weys 15:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Um, screw the Post (I'm sorry but they messed up on this story). The New Republic's blog, The Plank, is much better. I, however, am an editing neophyte, so if someone knows how to make that look a little better, please, be my guest.ClumsyMohel 16:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Oh, and the "speaks French" addition may be the cause of the neutrality dispute, but it is true that Allen speaks French. That should be included in that section somehow. ClumsyMohel 16:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
For people who doubt this is a real slur: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-ethnic-slurs#M Note that the "last updated" timestamp (at the time of writing this) is two months ago, so they obviously didn't just add this after the Allen story. ChaunceyMo
The word "nigger" is used in the translation, when the only insult I heard the Belgians used for the Congolese, and the one which Lumumba found so hurtful, was "sale macaque" which translates as "dirty monkey". Lumumba related to me that on the day he obtained his hard-won certificate from the Belgian government designating him an "evolved African" he was walking down the sidewalk in Leopoldville dressed in a suit and tie, when a passing Belgian woman sneered "sale macaque" at him, and in that moment Lumumba realized there was no hope for a Congolese under Belgian rule.) - review of THE ASSASSINATION OF LUMUMBA by Ludo De Witt Want some more, NPOV guys? "macaque" is the French/Belgian "N-word"
Interesting side note--it is a term which originated in French Tunisia--and guess where George Allen's mother is from???? Drum roll please . . . French Tunisia
-- Here's some more information on the Brazilian connection:
from: Racism in a Racial Democracy: The Maintenance of White Supremacy in Brazil - Page 70; by France Winddance Twine "While Miguel reported that in the past he had been called derogatory names such as macaca (monkey), he continued to frame his failure to win public office exclusively in terms of his socioeconomic status."
footnote: rhesus monkey :: Macaca mulatta; mulatto (from OED, draft revision 2003) 1. A person having one white and one black parent. Freq. more generally: a person of mixed race resembling a mulatto.
**Now chiefly considered offensive.** {new to the draft revision!}
Tsuwm 21:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It's kinda hard to document when some nice person named User:James_Kemp deletes it immediately without any sort of explanation or discussion..
"If this is a pre-existing racial slur, there ought to be documentation." Urban Dictionary[2] makak: Racist word in Belgium for people from coloured origins, and Immigrants. retrieved by Google on Aug 13, 2006 Rsquid 12:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Starting with the first sentence "Macaca (also written as macaque) ..." there are no cites. In both English and French dictionaries "macaque" (pronounced mə-kăk’ or mə-käk’) rhymes with "a back" or "the sack". In all other Franco-English words (plaque, opaque, plaque, antique, unique, clique, bisque, toque, baroque, oblique, and torque) the -que is a "k" sound; making all further references to "macaque" irrelevant.
Of the references to columnist Taki Theodoracopulos, #8 is unavailable for verification and #9 has no connection to the alleged slur. Reference 13, The Chicago Tribune's Swamp Blog, like most other blogs, fails Wiki's reliable, published sources and neutral point of view policies.
I'd discuss this further, but Wiki's founder wrote,
Article material solely using references 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 13 will be removed. Wikipedia's burden of evidence lies with the editors, and outlandish claims beg strong sources. 66.82.9.56 17:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The Allen bit seems neutral enough to me - it's the source material that disputed. Did he mean it as a slur? What is the French connection? How can mohawk become macaca? I'd axe the bit about him speaking French, and just because something comes from the Washington Post does not mean there's a liberal slant. The man said something that is potentially racist, and making up excuses for why he said it smack of similar "that's not what I meant" dances by Trent Lott and Ross Perot. Stick to the facts. 808 16:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Whether Allen speaks French or not seems completely irrelevant. I speak fluent French and was unfamiliar with this particular slur until the news hit. I'm also not sure that the general focus of this article makes sense - this seems to be more about Allen and a particular news event than about the slur itself. If this slur really is something worth writing about, I would think it should stand on its own, with just a section mentioning the Allen incident and linking to an article about Allen. Melsod 18:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This article really seems to me to be more about George Allen than anything else. I would favor slimming the article down to just basically the first sentence and then one or two more sentences explaining how the word caught the attention of the American public and linking to the controversies section of the George Allen article for anyone who wants to read further. The words connection with George Allen is definitely notable, but this article should primarily be about the word itself, and right now it isn't. modargo 19:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the page. If anyone has a good reference for prior use of macaca as a slur, it would be good to add it to the first or second sentence, as while this word does seem to be a genuine ethnic slur, it seems to not be in high enough use that it is generally known. So it would be nice to provide some independent confirmation of its use, beyond only the article. modargo 20:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This word has taken on some interesting connotations. George Allen certainly started it, but why did James Webb use it later? I've added his use at the debate where it got instantly reverted by Mareino. The article is about the word macaca, not about one political view. Reverting to eliminate James Webb's use constitutes a deliberate attempt to introduce bias. - 66.82.9.73 05:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Complete reworking to take the focus off the Allen incident and onto the word itself. I'm not sure that ref #1 is good enough for where it has been placed, I had tracked it down initially and situated it in a less critical spot. Richardjames444 17:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the additional info about the George Allen incident. THe emphasis of this article is on the term itself, rather than Allen's use of it. There is plenty of room in George Felix Allen and Virginia United States Senate election, 2006 for expanisve critiques of Allen's racism. Richardjames444 21:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/4125006.html Mathiastck 14:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Doubtless no one present knew what "macaca" meant, but subsequently, those three syllables have caused a tectonic shift in the political plates. Literally, it's the name of a monkey common to North Africa and Asia; figuratively, it's a racial slur in some parts of the world.
And in the United States, effective last Friday, it's an eponym for "major political boo-boo."" http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/4125006.html Mathiastck 14:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Please do not move this page to Macaca without a discussion. The main meaning for Macaca is the genus Macaca. The common name for this genus is Macaque which is why Macaca redirects there. Furthermore the slur is derived from the main meaning of the word. Joelito (talk) 16:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The new revision is obviously biased and has absoultley no citing information, just partisan hackery. The use of "Macaca" as a racial epithet is somewhat well documented on the internet and throughout the recent coverage of Allen's use of "Macaca" in a campaign rally. I'd prefer not to edit this myself because I'm realitivley inexperinced with Wikipedia and due to the touchy nature of the subject I'd like to see someone with a bit more experince fix this one up. zcflint05
I am against protecting this article. Mathiastck 13:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
In the George Allen section, it says, "Immediately following his second description of Sidarth as 'Macaca', Allen said, 'Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia,' which some interpret as highlighting Sidarth's race and national background. Alternatively, some interpret the comment as referring to a contrast between Allen touring rural Virginia and Webb visiting a 'bunch of Hollywood movie moguls.'"
There is no citation for the secondary interpretation, which is not found in either the George Felix Allen or the related election article. (There's a real question of whether the "welcome to America" part of the incident belongs in the Macaca article—it currently is not mentioned in the Allen article.) In any case, without a link to a credible source (i.e., not a partisan blogger), I believe the interpretation should be removed.--RattBoy 10:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
MR. RUSSERT: But why would you say to someone “Welcome to America, welcome to the real Virginia”? SEN. ALLEN: Because he was the cameraman for, for Jim Webb. He was following us around all over, all over the state. And we were going to small towns and rural areas and places that, while my opponent that week was out in Hollywood raising money, and I was talking about Virginia values. And so the point was, as you’re talking to the cameraman, to talk to Mr. Webb, to say, “Hey, here’s—welcome to the real world of Virginia,” as opposed to Hollywood, which is a world of make-believe.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14815993/page/7/
--Patchouli 02:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Improve the article certainly but it is a word (meaning monkey) and there was at least an alledged slur which can be discussed and the main points of view can be introduced.
One question regarding the use of Macaca or Macaque by Senator Allen was how would this aw-shucks son of a popular football coach know this little-used Belgian-French epithet?
The answer may have become apparent with recent reporting from Channel 9 CBS News in Washington DC. The Senator would have become familiar with that slur because his mother was of Algerian-Jewish ancestry and that community used the term when referring to poorly behaved persons of color. I first heard in used in Toulon France in 1976 while at the Naval Shipyard there by my girl-friend referring to some of my friends (of any color) who were not behaving correctly. She said it originally meant negroes but was expanded to include any one who did not conform to accepted norms. I do not know if the Senator was using the word as the French and Belgian overlords used it or if he used it in the sense that my girl-friend did when he referred to Mr. Webb's cameraman but in any event it did show how we'll react to any nuance-bone the media throws us.
"*The word is still occasionally used in Belgium (both in Flanders and in Wallonia) as a racial slur, referring not to Congolese but to Moroccan immigrants or their descendants.[citation needed]" Which word? Macaca or Macaque? --Gbleem 05:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
How do we explain the implied meaning behind Macacawitz? Allen is not Jewish but his mother's family is. How do we explain why it was offensive? --Gbleem 00:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
We have another one (User: Lence)
This seems to refer to te Turkish name for Hungarian language in fact, nothing to do with Macacas. LHOON 22:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
George Allen is weeks away from being removed from office...All due to his racism comment.
I removed the citation that was mentioned here: ( http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/07/word.of.the.year/index.html?eref=rss_topstories) about "macaca"/"macaca moment" being the runner-up in the American Dialect Society 2007 Word of the Year vote. If you read the press release on the ADS site here ( http://www.americandialect.org/Word-of-the-Year_2006.pdf ), "prohibited liquids" clearly edged out "macaca" in the tally.
I think the confusion lies in the fact that the American Name Society had selected "Macaca" as a runner up to "Pluto" (NOT "plutoed", which ADS voted to win). Mariana 07:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Watching FUNNY LADY last night, near the end of the movie the Billy Rose character mocks the Fanny Brice (Streisand) character's radio show, calling it "that macaca radio show." Hmmmm... Was that a specific slur vs. the owners or others on the radio show? A phrase Rose himself used a lot? A phrase used in the Jewish or Yiddish speaking community that has some unknown or other meaning? Or another example of the slur-ish use of the word described here? Just thought it was interesting enough to mention here. Carol Moore carolmooredc18:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
'Sup, guys.
I noticed that this article already has a mention of the GOP and their attempts to avoid another "macaca" moment, but didn't notice a source. I found a good source on this, complete with relevant excerpts from a GOP handbook in PDF form.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/06/14/gop-issues-rules-to-avoid-another-macaca-moment/
--Ferrarimanf355 22:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Hey folks... I was driving through Fairfax, VA and snapped a picture of a vanity license plate with MCACAS on it. I have the picture but if you wanna get a quick looksie, check this out. Could/Should this be in the article? Just wonderin. Qb | your 2 cents 19:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone really needs to add something about the phrase "macaca effect" and how it's used in high-tech. I just heard it referenced this way the other day on Comedy Central. While the phrase "macaca effect" originally referenced the Virginia Senate race, it has taken on an entirely new meaning in the high-tech industry. Journalist Liz Davidson writes:
What is the "macaca effect"? First of all, what is a macaca? A "macaca" is a racial pejorative to refer to someone either from or with ancestry from India or Pakistan. And the "macaca effect" is pejorative used by people in high tech to refer to East Indians driving down the wages of American and British workers. In many fields (computer programming, engineering, medicine, nursing, accounting, etc.) companies are faking labor shortages to acquire H1B visas and hire East Indians, with the net effect of driving down the wages of American and British employees. Thus, one hears disgruntled employees talking about the "macaca effect."
http://www.magic-city-news.com/Guest_Column_89/What_is_the_Macaca_Effect10562.shtml
--Ramesh0909 (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I googled it and there are many references to "macaca effect" in high tech by various authors. I added one in external links. I agree that there should be a section on "macaca effect" in high tech. I've heard this phrase used a few times recently in engineering. --Luther77 (talk) 18:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I concur the section should be added. I'll put it back. --Bhadraksh (talk) 21:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Anybody else read this article [3] about our "macaca" entry today? Don't know that I necessarily agree with any of this guy's analysis, but I thought contributors to this article might be interested to see it all the same. -- Khazar (talk) 05:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I came here after reading the slate article as well, I don't agree with its the assessment. Cataloging Racial slurs has never been a priority on Wikipedia. The entire argument is based on the article creation date falling after it's usage. Another way to look at it could be that it wasn't notable enough before this, there are many obscure, new and local slangs that are added everyday, if their entries didn't exist before it doesn't mean that they weren't used. I understand its hard to find reputable third-part sources to verify, but I suppose that's the nature of racial epithets. Did we not know what 'truthiness' meant until it had an article, it was added to the English dictionary subsequently. It was only a matter of time until it got enough media attention. 59.180.26.147 (talk) 10:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Let's not mince words -- this article is about the George Allen incident more than the term itself. That makes it a WP:COATRACK article and that is a big problem. Not only does it mostly talk about Allen, the rest of the article exists only to say that the central disputed fact of that incident is not disputable. Stripped of Allen, all this article says is that the term has a definition and gives a few anecdotal uses of it or a cognate. By that standard every word in every language would have a Wikipedia article. To the extent it is true, it is just a regional variation of the sadly common European slur that Black people are "monkeys". I'm sure every English speaker here has heard that one yet it isn't even mentioned on the monkey disambiguation. Our own slur for the macaca-hurlers is most commonly "frog". It gets a mention on the dab at least but no article. But then why would it? An article about a term should only exist if there is content beyond merely cataloguing of it. Allen aside this is a dictionary article at best and a disputed one at worst. It shouldn't exist here. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Per discussion above, can we have concurrence for removing the weakly-sourced reference to macaca as a racial epithet from this article? Editors? Ratagonia (talk) 04:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree as well, upon review of this article, the sources are very very weak supporting this term as a slur.. I've spent the last half hour looking online and cannot find definitive evidence that the term is indeed a slur, or is anything other than a french word for monkey. I have found many articles alleging it is a slur, but not anything that is in the least bit scholarly or offering true research on the subject - its all just conjecture and tertiary sourcing from what I can tell. Both of which I would note are violations of WP:OR. Unless we have an authoritative source that says "Macaca is a slur" (which we do not have) then we should not say such in this article. The most I think we could say with the current sources given is that "macaca is alleged to be slur by X", then balance that out with the number of source that argue it is not a slur. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for the concurrence and the changes, which work fairly well. I'd like to suggest that the proper title for the article would be Macaque (slur) since this is the word that is actually a racial slur, and that the bulk of the article is about. Redirect from Macaca. The Macaca Incident listed as related but unclear... as currently written. A pronunciation note on Macaque would help. (I am a recovering Wikiaddict and am not proficient at doing some of these things. Also, this is a visible and sensitive article, so I seek concurrence before making significant changes, to avoid both edit warring and hurt feelings (mine?)) Ratagonia (talk) 16:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
This entire article now reads like a promotion of George Allen, taking the media to task for victimizing a poor old man who routinely makes up words that don't mean anything. It's a load of shit and everyone who helped fudge this particular project should feel ashamed of this kind of behavior. 208.118.163.99 (talk) 20:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
I'll put a more detailed description here later today of my reasoning behind the tags so we can come to a consensus/get this done, heading out now. --Padenton (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I suggest this sentence be modified. I find it impossible to believe there is any data to support this assertion as fact. Is somebody credible going to conduct a poll about the usage of the word "Macaca" among Portuguese who self-identify as racists? (talk) 20:49, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
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