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We are all aware that Pristina is still within Serbia, officially speaking, however I think the section listing the Macedonian embassies should have Pristina within Kosovo because being within Kosovo does not exclude it from being in Serbia at the same time it very well emphasizes that there is an embassy in Kovoso too. mentarm
In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Southern Europe at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Southern Europe whose scope would include the Republic of Macedonia. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Surely this line is FYROM propaganda, but everytime someone tries to alter the line it is reverted, LOL.
Here is the latest general good relations - the same as before - from ERT News today!
Greece accuses FYROM of 'falsifying' history in Alexander the Great row
ATHENS: Greece on Thursday reacted angrily to a decision by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to rename its capital's main airport after Alexander the Great, the famed warrior-king of antiquity that Greece considers an integral part of its own cultural heritage.
"History cannot change, or be falsified, 2,000 years on," Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said in a statement. Bakoyannis was responding to an announcement by her FYROM counterpart Antonio Milososki that the Skopje international airport is to be renamed 'Alexander of Macedon', the foreign ministry said.
"With its announcement today, (FYROM) once again seeks false supports in the past," the Greek foreign minister said. "Alexander the Great is a leading figure of global appeal...(a) Greek conqueror who established himself in history by spreading Greek culture across the entire known world," Bakoyannis added.
Greece is also at loggerheads with its tiny northern neighbour over its name, blocking the former Yugoslav province's efforts to gain international recognition as "Macedonia" after breaking away from Belgrade in 1991. Skopje wants the name Republic of Macedonia, as laid down in its constitution, to be used globally.
But Macedonia is also the name of a northern Greek region which was the seat of power of Alexander the Great, remembered for his conquest of Asia as far as modern-day India in the fourth century BC.
Athens threatens to block FYROM's ambitions to join the European Union and NATO unless it agrees to a compromise in a dispute over its name. "This behaviour is incompatible with (FYROM's) obligations for good neighbourly relations..and its pledges to the EU, and does not further its Euro-Atlantic aspirations," Bakoyannis said on Thursday.
In 1994, Athens imposed an embargo over the issue that cost FYROM some 2.2 billion dollars, according to Skopje's estimates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Reaper7 (talk • contribs) 22:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC).
The example of not generally good trade is a line above your comment remember - the two year blockade?, not being allowed in EU in the future unless they alter their name is also not generally good relations, Greece having made sure they change their name before aswell, - is all not good relations, and all this and the country has only been around less than 2 decades. Nothing is generally good. England and Turkey's relationship is generally good - Greece and Fyrom? Not.Reaper7 00:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
A few days ago while reading about the naming issue I noticed a quote of the agreement signed by the two countries which allowed Macedonia to join the UN as FYROM which stated that Greece could not block Macedonia's entry to any international organisation under the FYROM name. Unfortunately I didn't save the link to the site or the quote, so would anyone with a better knowledge of the agreement or a link to the agreement be able to confirm this? Trampoline Man 14:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- C. INTERNATIONAL, MULTILATERAL AND REGIONAL INSTITUTIONS
- Article 11
- 1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part(Greece) agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part("FYROM") in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).
- ""...the Hellenic Parliament, under any composition, will not ratify the accession of the neighbouring country to the EU and NATO if the name issue is not resolved beforehand.""
Interesting link. Thanks Trampoline Man! See this nice article that applies to some recent developments:
- Article 7
- 1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.[1]
- 2. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the Second Part shall cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag prior to such entry into force.[2]
- 3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.[3]
...comments yours... NikoSilver 22:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Now, now, please, your comment above may well be taken as complete lack of WP:AGF and possibly WP:NPA from your part; which I definitely don't deserve having been the major editor of the (only) featured article for the region: Macedonia (terminology). I have already cited above what the Greek government perceives as a violation of all these articles, as clearly officially stated here ("deep displeasure" and "taking backward steps and insisting on distorting the past") and also criticized here by the mediator himself (Mathew Nimetz: "Οι προσπάθειες διαμεσολάβησης για το ζήτημα της ονομασίας των Σκοπίων επηρεάζονται, και μάλιστα όχι θετικά, από την απόφαση της ΠΓΔΜ να μετονομάσει το αεροδρόμιό της σε Αλέξανδρος ο Μέγας"/"The effort to mediation on the name issue of Skopje [RoM] are affected, not positively of course, by the decision of FYROM to rename its airport to Alexander the Great"). Feel free to study all that. NikoSilver 16:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
For the first part, you're right, though it was unintentional, as I presumed you'd notice the third citation. However, when in doubt, please don't take the wrong path of insinuating nationalist response spakings and the like.
For the second part, my and your opinion count zilt; it's what we can come down with sources that matters. (like my "unhelpful" Nimetz source above). If you do want my personal opinion, then <initiating nationalistic rant> I think that the whole country is built on the notion of being the rightful heir and descendant to Alexander the Great (some users here know I have extensive experience on the issue; but that is all WP:OR of course). Fortunately the facts state otherwise:
Now, as I don't see France claiming Leonardo Da Vinci, Julius Caesar, the Leaning tower of Pisa and the Colosseum; I expect the same from my neighbors. Had those "desires to honour a significant person in the region's history" (which is fallacious because the region is Macedon) been so frequent; I can't imagine what the names of the airports would be across the world! </end nationalistic rant> :-) NikoSilver 17:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
But Alexander was not "from the region" at all; his association with what is now the FYROM is a much later projection. Skopje lies in what was the ancient region of Dardania, roughly corresponding to modern-day Kosovo. Dardania and Macedon were separated by the ancient kingdom of Paionia, roughly corresponding to the rest of what is now the FYROM. In other words, Alexander's homeland lay a full two countries away. If the Skopjan authorities insist on using a name from classical antiquity, that of an illustrious Dardanian would be much more appropriate. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Please read your source fully. Article 7 that I quoted has been violated, so theoretically Greece can do whatever she deems necessary (and that's why I quoted it).
Furthermore, the 7 year period for which Athens was forced by that treaty to not deny on the name issue alone has expired and only needs a 12 month notice, which is too short for either EU or NATO accession (art.23-2). NikoSilver 16:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
There are numerous examples of what Greece considers a violation of the treaty, while there is no explicit definition within the treaty as per what constitutes a violation of art.7. We can freely suppose that Greece can stall or even deny the accession on what Greece defines as a violation of the treaty. Moreover, nothing prevents Greece from withdrawing from the treaty with a 12 month notice (art.23.2); while we know very well that accession to either organization takes significantly longer than that. Given these, I'm afraid that saying that "Greece's threats are invalid since she will be violating the treaty if she blocks FYROM accession", is just as WP:OR of an interpretation as it would be to say that "FYROM has violated article 7 numerous times". To quote you, they are both "completely up to interpretation".
If you feel appropriate that all this legal analysis helps the article, then we can include it. My view, however, is that all this belongs to the talk-page, since it constitutes a WP:OR interpretation of both treaty violations. Things would change significantly if you had a WP:INDY source that calls those threats moot, or if I had a source that calls Skopje Airport renaming and other attempts as violations. For now, all we have is Nimetz's quote that it "affected [the mediation attempt] and not in a positive way"...[2]
On a personal note, I find it really funny you think that FYROM "is simply giving an airport a more mainstream name for commercial reasons". The precedent of Skopje Airport being renamed to International Airport "Alexander the Great" (<-mouseover that one) would be equivalent to the following "cultural exchanges" of the sort:
All I can say is LOL :-) NikoSilver 11:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad you find it funny, but the "commercial reasons" statement was not my own. I was pointing out the two stated opinions of both governments, not my own opinion.
"I was informed that this is a commercial decision -- that the renaming had more of a commercial goal," Nimetz added.
To my knowledge Greece has made no motions towards leaving the treaty, and as such is bound by its terms. For now, and in the forseeable future, they are members of the treaty, and as blocking EU accession based on the non-conclusion of the naming dispute would be in violation of the treaty, it is very relevant to point out that Greece does not have a legal basis for the threat that it made.
As has already been stated, determining a violation of Article 7 is difficult and again, as already stated, I have no interest in debating it. However, determining a violation of Article 11 is very black and white. There is simply no way Greece can use the ongoing name dispute as the basis of blocking RoM's EU accession without being in violation of the treaty.
I do not see how this can be seen as original research. The following counts as original research:
What I'm talking about does none of that. My source for my claims is the treaty itself, which I believe is enough? Trampoline Man 13:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I am sure FYROM used to put Salonika on its money for 'commercial reasons' aswell. Greece will block FYROM from the EU despite what the PM of FYROM is saying recently to calm his people and not scare them with the reality that his policies will end in no EU. [4]Reaper7 10:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to nitpick, but is it actually a treaty? I've only ever encountered references to an "interim agreement". ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
This article's title is inaccurate. The official name of this country used internationally is the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia according to the agreement they signed in 1995. Because Wikipedia is a international setting the international name should be used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LieutenantBoom (talk • contribs) 08:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
No, FYROM is the officially recognised name, and even that is only so in certain quarters. The constitutional name is the Republic of Macedonia and it is recognised as being such by many strategically important states: namely all five other former Yugoslav republics; all countries which were previously a part of the Warsaw Pact including new states created since the end (eg. Slovakia, Belarus etc), and also Albania plus Bulgaria both of whom have had some form of dispute with the country, particularly Bulgaria over the name; and three of the five permanent members of the security council, the USA, China and Russia. The only significant states not to recognise the name are Greece, the UK, France and the rest of the pre-2004 EU countries including Cyprus and Malta. Even so, Macedonia is widely accepted as being the short form however the long form is; asides Greece, when the country was making headlines in 2001 during the war with Albanian rebels, all reporters and presenters spoke only of Macedonia.
en.wikipedia on the other hand is dedicated to the language and not just the UK. As such, one is free to use American, Australian, or any form of English they choose, and in turn, it serves all English speaking communities. So on the whole, the constitutional name is less harmful than the name which will in time be forgotten by everyone. Only Greece and Cyprus are likely to refer to the FYROM. Evlekis 14:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
You don't have to be the Greece to not recognise their sef appointed name, you can also still be Nato, EU, or the UN ect who still call the country FYROM and are not taken into account either with the naming of this article, I spose what really counts is what the US says, and since FYROM kindly gave some troops for Iraq and Greece didn't the US said they can have the name Macedonia, and to be honest, only the USA counts. Reaper7 20:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The views of the USA or any third country are not important in this. Even if all countries in the world except Greece recognize the self-decided name, the name dispute is something that is not going to go away. This is because of Greek control over their Euro-Atlantic aspirations. No one can force Greece to allow them in under their self-decided name and frankly I don't think any third country really cares. User:LieutenantBoom
I think it is ridiculous of wikipedia to refer to FYROM as "Macedonia", since the UN has recognize it as FYROM. No country has the right to monopolize a name of a region that belongs to more than one countries. There is Slavic Macedonia, Greek Macedonia and even Bulgarian Macedonia. They do have the right of having as part of their name the term "Macedonia" but they do not have the right to monopolize it. Historically, they have never been self-identified as "Macedonians" before the 19nth century. They only did so in order to stress their separation from neighbour nations as Albanians, Bulgarians and Grecomacedonians. Let me give you an example. If Portugal was separated in two countries like former Yugoslavia did, would the northern of it have the right to be called "Galicia"? No, because there already would exist a region of a neighbour country with that name. So, dear citizens of FYROM and dear editors of wikipedia, change this country's name on this site. My suggestions are: either refer to it as FYROM and to its citizens as FYR Macedonians or refer to it as Slavomacedonia and Slavomacedonians. This is the fairest choice, although you could also use Northern Macedonia and Northern Macedonians. These sollutions would be fair to both sides Greek Macedonian and Slavomacedonian and they would also be justified in historical, political and other terms. You always care about FYROM's right to self-identification, what about the right of 2,5 millions of Greek Macedonians to identify themselves as Macedonians as they have so for thousands of years and they did not just "remember" they were "Macedonians" during the last few decades like the Slavomacedonians did. (Dionysios 16:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC))
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brest (talk • contribs) 07:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
Editors of this page may be interested in the Turks in Macedonia article, created 10 days ago. Best regards, Evv 18:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Does the country have a motto? If so, it needs to be included. Politis 14:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
[[5]]-- Avg 01:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
There is an ongoing discussion in Talk:Slavic language (Greece) and Talk:Macedonian language about this controversial article with a controversial heading. Please take a look. --Michkalas 14:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, 'South Serbia' should not redirect here. What is now the country called 'Macedonia', was known as 'South Serbia' between the world wars, at the same time as its poulation was subjected to a campaign of Serbianisation. The term 'South Serbia' now is more often used to refer to Kosovo and the areas around it, or (particularly in the Serbian press) to the Albanian-inhabited municipalities of Preševo, Bujanovac and Medveđa, discussed in Wikipedia under Preševo Valley. Mattwhiteski 10:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
During the Ottoman rule, the territory of the contemporary Republic of Macedonia was divided into two administrative regions, the Villayet of Bitola comprising the southern part of the country and the Villayet of Prizren comprising the northern part of the country as well as Kosovo. Therefore, there was no Macedonia as an single administrative unit in the Ottoman Empire and there was no partition between the four neighbouring countries.--SOLEMN 12:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
"however it should be noted that the name "Republic of Macedonia" is not used in any international relations to which Greece or any other country not recognizing that name is a party." A few checks of embassy web sites appears to show that the quoted statement is not entirely accurrate. Officially the EU countries do not yet recognize Macedonia under it's constitutional name. However the following embassy websites of various EU countries show them referring to Macedonia by its constitutional name.
http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1047661274821 (refers to country as "Macedonia")
http://www.nlembassy.org.mk/ (refers to country as "Macedonia")
http://www.swedenabroad.com/pages/start____48938.asp (refers to location as in "Macedonia")
http://www.ambafrance-mk.org/ (French, refers to embassy as "Ambassade de France en Macédoine")
On none of these embassy web sites could I see the term "FYROM" or any variation of it. In fact I gave up looking for an example when it appeared that the greek embassy in Skopje didn't have a presence on the web.
If the quoted statement from the article:
"however it should be noted that the name "Republic of Macedonia" is not used in any international relations to which Greece or any other country not recognizing that name is a party."
Were true I would expect these countries to use FYROM since they do not yet recognize Macedonia by it's constitutional name. They do not. Therefore I mean to change the sentence to reflect the fact that currently "FYROM" is only used where Greece is a party to the discussion or where Greece is a member of the forum in which discussion would take place.Zebulin 19:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Precisely! so the quoted text from the article which says that all countries not recognizing Macedonia by it's constitutional name all use FYROM in all discussions or in all international relations is incorrect. Perhaps this ambiguity should be emphasized in the relevant portion of the article.Zebulin 21:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)