- The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
- This move proposal has been closed since it had turned into a sock circus and there is clearly no support for the move from bona fide editors. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:20, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Support: There are many international organization in wihch North Cyprus is a member and the "North" is used in official web pages of these organizations. Gercekkaynarca (talk) 08:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Support: I support this logical offer. Happy19April2009 (talk) 23:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Support: The offer is correct: Republic of Cyprus is used for Greek Cypriots, and North Cyprus is used for Turkish Cypriots. Elderbrother45 (talk) 23:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment: In general, Wikipedians do not vote. Further, when a number of new accounts register to participate in a discussion, the prospect of vote stacking is considered. —C.Fred (talk) 23:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Support: Zlerman's support for removing this part is not ethical. The banned user disproven Zlerman's proof for Northern Cyprus. If one disprove my idea or reasoning, this does not make me angry towards him/her. Also, the suggestion to change NORTH is in Talk Page! Sisamvleda (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- How can a comment written by Sisamvleda on 12 April 2009 refer to a support statement of mine made on 7 May 2009 (see below)? Looks like sheer falsification of talk page content. As to actual facts, the banned user did not disprove my "proof": the name as it appears on the home page of the Office of the President is Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, so if we accept this as the long name, then the short name is obviously Northern Cyprus. No need to go through further contortions. To get to "North Cyprus" in his "disproof" the banned user had to click on one of the secondary tabs which opens to a heading "About Cyprus" (!) and reads like a standard tourist pamphlet, including sentences like this: "North Cyprus is a paradise island in the Mediterranean with its untouched natural beauties and unique historical wealth. Cyprus (!!!) is unmatched with its friendly people, clean and untouched nature, kilometers-long coasts, etc." This is the justification for changing the name of a political entity from "Northern Cyprus" to "North Cyprus"? Get real. --Zlerman (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Sisamvleda's comment is on Zlerman's contribution in 8 February 2009 (06:30); not on 7 May 2009. Zlerman gave that arguement in 8 Feb 2009 for the first time! Zlerman: "If we accept Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as the long name, then the short name is obviously Northern Cyprus". Zlerman's this reasoning is false: Zlerman's idea based on the thinking that "Short Form must be a part of Long Form". Such a generalization cannot be made in abbreviations and shortenings. Also, 1': In http://www.kktcb.eu/index.php , Look at the MAIN MENU in the website: You can clearly see that the abbreviation is NORTH CYPRUS in the main menu president-presidency-pressoffice-documents-NORTH CYPRUS-edirectory. Hence, Zlerman's proof is disproven. There are many proofs in various areas for NORTHERN CYPRUS as well: 2: The Country registers itself as NORTH Cyprus in membership to international organizations; 3: In official web sites of the country's organizations and ministeries, NORTH is used; 4: The Country Registers itself as NORTH Cyprus in international sportive tournaments and championships; 5: The Country's officials use NORTH Cyprus when international communications and writings; 6: Countive proofs (GOOGLE etc. not official proofs, but giving enough idea). Even, in 2009 European Billard Championship in MAY 2009, the name NORTH CYPRUS was used. SpeedyKostas (talk) 13:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Zlerman's reasoning is so weak! It even cannot explain "Xpr for Christopher"; "Bob for Robert"; "Sasha for Aleksander". You made me laugh Zlerman :) AlterEnta1 (talk) 13:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
ZLERMAN IS CLICKING (NORTH CYPRUS > ABOUT CYPRUS) IN http://www.kktcb.eu/index.php , AND SAYING ABOUT CYPRUS IS A SECONDARY TAB! HEY ZLERMAN, DO NOT CLICK ON (ABOUT CYPRUS) IN (NORTH CYPRUS) TAB OF MAIN MENU. MAIN MENU IS PRIMARY MENU OR TAB IN A WEB PAGE. NORTH CYPRUS EXPRESSION IS ON MAIN MENU (FROM WHERE YOU ARE REACHING YOUR SECONDARY TAB ABOUT CYPRUS). SustainedLifes (talk) 09:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I'm not going to "vote" either way right now because it appears likely that the current voting process is being driven by a banned user via sockpuppets. I will note, however, that there do in fact seem to be substantially more Google hits on the phrase "North Cyprus" than on the phrase "Northern Cyprus". I'm not sure what this means, or if it really is significant or not. It does seem reasonable (to me, at the moment) to acknowledge all widely used names in the opening (lede) section of the article — including both "Northern Cyprus" and "North Cyprus" — and perhaps change subsequent references within the body of the article to "the TRNC". But I'm not going to support the idea of making any major change right now, at least not until we can get a handle on the disruptive activities of the banned user. (And the banned user needs to accept that any activity by him/her on Wikipedia is an unwelcome disruption by definition, regardless of the merits of what he/she is saying, and that the only legitimate way for him/her to return to any sort of participation here would be to convince the "powers that be" to reverse the original ban — something which no one is likely to consider as long as he/she continues to act in brazen defiance of the ban.) Richwales (talk) 16:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Support: In almost all of the cases, North is used. Also, there are no rule/regulation etc. in TRNC that says that the SHORT abbreviation of "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" is "Northern Cyprus". In official representations, country uses North Cyprus! The last such usage is European Billard Championship in 2009! Hence, the Northern Cyprus expressions must be changed to North Cyprus, except in the LONG name of the country. SustainedLifes (talk) 09:43, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Support: LONG FORM: TURKISH REPUBLIC OF NORTHERN CYPRUS. SHORT FORM (abbreviation): NORTH CYPRUS. NicestParadisers (talk) 09:49, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
"In almost all of the cases, North is used. Also, there are no rule/regulation etc. in TRNC that says that the SHORT abbreviation of "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" is "Northern Cyprus". In official representations, country uses North Cyprus! The last such usage is European Billard Championship in 2009! Hence, the Northern Cyprus expressions must be changed to North Cyprus, except in the LONG name of the country. SustainedLifes (talk) 09:43, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Neutral: I am very concerned about what User talk:Richwales stated above: "...it appears likely that the current voting process is being driven by a banned user via sockpuppets.". I am also concerned that many 'supporters' have a POV attituted to the issue. The "TRNC" self-identifies as 'North Cyprus'; having said that, there are no 'official' occasions since it is recognised only by Turkey and there its official name is TRNC. For instance, in the UK, the EU, the UN, 'official occasions' mean meeting with the representatives of the Turkish Cypriot community, not with the 'president', 'ambassador', etc of North/ern Cyprus. I remain neutral because I cannot see the reasons why the article was first named and remained as 'Northern Cyprus'. More arguments please because I am inclined towards 'support' . Politis (talk) 13:44, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Support: There are no reasonable for "Northern Cyprus". The only proof that was given by the user Zlerman had already been disproven. In the opposite direction, there are myriad numbers of proofs that justifies North Cyprus. Some users above listed proofs of North Cyprus. It is clear that the above proofs are very reasonable in every respect. Also, in the above section where the proofs of North Cyprus are given, references are given clearly. SpeedyKostas (talk) 14:03, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Fiasco and travesty: this "voting process" is a travesty of Wikipedia consensus-seeking procedures. In addition to being driven by a banned user Gercekkaynarca, all the support votes come from users who have registered since April 2009 and have fewer than 10 edits to their record. This ridiculous agenda-pushing has to stop immediately.--Zlerman (talk) 03:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I have a strong suspicion most, if not all, of these "users" are socks of the banned initiator of this farcical poll.--Athenean (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
I suggest we remove this section due to the concerns expressed. I leave it up to my fellow regular and bona fide editors to decide but, in principle I would agree for temporary deletion. Politis (talk) 08:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
This comment was removed from the talk page contrary to Wikiquette in subsequent reverts.--Zlerman (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly support the suggestion made by Politis. --Zlerman (talk) 08:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Neutral: I neither support North nor Northern. I think a voting process should continue one or two months. At the end, a decision can be made. I also think that voting process is in vain since the article is locked. Hence, the result of the voting cannot affect anything. It seems people are discussing in vain, at least for me... UsefulOxygen (talk) 09:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Oppose: UsefulOxygen's reasoning is plausible. AccountOfForever (talk) 09:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Support: There are many cited proofs listed above for "North". Also, the reasoning of UsefulOxygen is not relevant to the issue covered here! I think, the best thing to do is what Politis suggests: Let us see the reason why the article was first named and remained as 'Northern Cyprus'. We can put a warning mark in the user talk page of the creator of the article, s/he can answer why s/he chose Northern instead of North. We can ask whether there is official regulation or sth else that makes the use of Northern compulsory etc... I will put her/his answer on this voting page. I will wait for 1 week for the answer.SustainedLifes (talk) 10:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Support: The article Northern Cyprus was created in 14:52, 18 July 2003 by Roadrunner. I am putting a question mark to her/his talk page to learn the reason why s/he chose Northern instead of North!SustainedLifes (talk) 10:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I put the related info to the talk page of Roadrunner. He may return back to us in 1 week, I think. SustainedLifes (talk) 11:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Neutral: I asked in the web form N.Cyprus's Presidency that: "What is the short form of your country". Message Number is:OPRH-453. I will share the reply from presidency with the voters here. In http://www.kktcb.eu/index.php?men=34&submen=0 of the webform address, anybody can ask the short form of the country as well. AlterEnta1 (talk) 06:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Support: Kuzey = North. Kuzeli = Nothern.
Northern is an adjective. North is a noun. The name of the country in Turkish uses the NOUN KUZEY. The proper translation of this is NORTH The adjective in Turkish is Kuzeyli, BUT the official name of the country is Kuzey Kıbrıs Türk Cumhuriyeti. Notice the use of the word Kuzey and NOT Kuzeli. WillMall (talk) 10:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- Comment: We don't give a damn what the official or Turkish name is. This is the English wikipedia, and we go by the most common English usage, which is "Northern Cyprus". --Athenean (talk) 00:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- re comment: Athenean, You should watch your tone. Consider this a warning. Next step is to report you. Read Wikipedia:Civility. WillMall (talk) 02:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Oppose: Since (as far as I'm aware) a considerable body of English-language sources refer to this place either as "Northern Cyprus" or the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", I don't see a compelling argument for changing the article's title to "North Cyprus". If anything, we should probably change the title to "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" (which currently redirects here), and let both "Northern Cyprus" and "North Cyprus" be redirects. WillMall's argument about the Turkish name is interesting, but I really don't feel it helps us here because whatever the official Turkish name says, the official name's English equivalent has always used "Northern". I'm also still concerned that many of the votes in favour of changing the name look suspiciously like sockpuppets — though I'll happily drop this worry if admins (including possibly someone with checkuser privs) come to the conclusion that I'm mistaken. Richwales (talk) 07:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Support: Disprooving Richwales
- A considerable body of English-language sources refer to this place either as "Northern Cyprus"/"Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus": Just Google "North Cyprus" and "Northern Cyprus": "North Cyprus":1.050.000 Hits and "Northern Cyprus": 711.000. Your Sockpuppetry Claim is invalid since In Wikipedia may be sockpuppetry works, but for thousands of Web Servers all around the world are protected from others. Only web masters can edit the info in Web Servers!
- No compelling argument for changing the article's title to "North Cyprus": There are! :
- In http://www.kktcb.eu/index.php (presidency of TRNC), NORTH CYPRUS is used for Short Form!
- TRNC registers itself as NORTH Cyprus in membership to international organizations: European Countries Biologists Association (ECBA); European Pool Championships. But YOU CANNOT SHOW AN ORGANIZATION IN WHICH TRNC REGISTRED ITSELF AS "NORTHERN CYPRUS"! Show only one "Northern Cyprus", if you can prove! But, we can show you many "North Cyprus" in memberships to international organizations!
- In official web sites of the TRNC's organizations and ministeries, NORTH is used: TRNC's easykart federation web site; TRNC's Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry.
- TRNC Registers itself as NORTH Cyprus in international sportive tournaments and championships: World Easykart Champion; International Bocce Friendship Tournament.
- TRNC's officials use NORTH Cyprus when international communications and writings
- Countive proofs of Google!
- We should probably change the title to "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" (which currently redirects Northern Cyprus), and let both "Northern Cyprus" and "North Cyprus" be redirects: Absolutely No! True Form of Short Form must be used. In fact, in registration to membership to international organizations, mostly the Short Form "North Cyprus" is used, as if it is the only form as well!.
- Official name's English equivalent has always used "Northern": Explained many times: Long Form: "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus"; Short Form: "North Cyprus". Also, in membership to international organizations, mostly the Short Form "North Cyprus" is used, as if it is the only form as well!.
Sockpuppetry Claim: In any voting in Wikipedia, one of the sides with less reasonable proofs can claim this to reduce the credibility of the voting.! AlterEnta1 (talk) 09:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: In Wikipedia, none of AlterEnta1's arguments are valid. They may be valid in the real world, but in Wikipedia, only common English usage prevails. None of the external factors that he/she cites are valid reasons to choose one name over another here. Only WP:NAME applies, specifically the most common English term. The difference between "North" and "Northern" in English is virtually zero, so there isn't a question about changing meaning by choosing one or the other. The only question for Wikipedia is which is the term that English speakers use and recognize the most. Personally, I always use "Northern Cyprus", but I'm a data set of one. What do English speakers use? That's the proof you need to be gathering and the only proof you need to be gathering. External political factors don't apply here. (Taivo (talk) 11:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC))
Support: Taivo says in Wikipedia, only common English usage prevails. You are right Traivo. But notice that common English usage is NORTH CYPRUS, as understood from Google etc. Also, TRNC registred itself as NORTH CYPRUS in membership to international organizations. There are MANY organizations in which NORTH CYPRUS is a member. There is NO NORTHERN CYPRUS in international organizations.
There are only NORTH CYPRUS and TURKISH REPUBLIC OF NORTHERN CYPRUS in international organizations. What you use personally does not care Wikipedia. What English speakers use is NORTH CYPRUS as well: This was proven above already in the section above. "You seem not to read the around info". Also, for those who support/oppose/neutral/comment to the voting, please put the relevant icons yourself! SinceAdamAndEva (talk) 14:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Support: Those who oppose use ambiguities like common English usage/personally/what English speakers use. Those who oppose CANNOT disprove the proofs of NORTH CYPRUS. In opposite, those who support CAN disprove NORTHERN CYPRUS easily. As I understood, sockpuppetry claims etc, this voting converted to be a football match, not the exchange of ideas more healhty. SustainedLifes (talk) 14:32, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: SustainedLifes is right: Voting is not a football match. This is exchange of ideas. Please, support your reasonings with references/proofs etc. Also, please obey Wikipedia rules: Some participants oppose, but write comment at the beginning. Do not hesitate to put oppose icon if you think so. SinceAdamAndEva (talk) 14:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
NOTE There is obvious sockpuppetry being used to influence the outcome of this 'vote' for consensus. Further some have !voted three times or more. Nja247 15:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
All Most of the "North Cyprus" supporters (except one, User:AlterEnta1) have now been blocked as sockpuppets. I propose again that we delete the entire section and move on to more important issues. --Zlerman (talk) 16:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
In an attempt to make it easier for people to find the legitimate votes/comments, I've crossed out everything in this section that was signed by users who are currently blocked "indefinitely". If I made a mistake with any of these, please accept my apologies and feel free to make corrections as needed. A few genuine votes (on both sides) and comments do remain, and presumably they can/should be considered on their own merits. Richwales (talk) 18:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Neutral: First, I oppose the cencorship of the thoughts of some users. What Richwales do is not suitable to me. Second, even though I indicated a neutrality, just as now, I found that (and wanted to share with you as well):
- It doesn't matter one whit what the president of the TRNC says. All that matters here is common English usage. The most common English term is the appropriate term to use here and this is the first place I've seen "North Cyprus". Everywhere else in English atlases, etc. all I've seen is "Northern Cyprus". I don't have hard numbers, though. (Taivo (talk) 02:29, 10 May 2009 (UTC))
Oppose. I've never, ever heard this place called "North Cyprus". I've always heard and read it as "Northern Cyprus". Common English usage trumps any other argument in Wikipedia. And for me the most common English usage (indeed, the only English usage) is "Northern Cyprus". (Taivo (talk) 04:13, 10 May 2009 (UTC))
- I would agree I've never heard it said North Cyprus. Further it should be noted North Cyprus redirects here already, so I urge everyone to try to get on with building an encyclopaedia rather than circular arguing. Cheers regardless, and please feel free to report any further suspected sock to me, or WP:ANI. Nja247 06:39, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Comment: As far as common usage goes: Google returns more results for North Cyprus rather than Northern Cyprus. Try it yourself and see. WillMall (talk) 04:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm honestly confused here. If (as seems to be the claim) Turkish Cypriots strongly prefer the name "North Cyprus" (not "Northern Cyprus") — and if the Turkish name for the TRNC strictly translates as "North" (not "Northern") — then why did these same people apparently approve and promote "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" as the official English translation of "Kuzey Kıbrıs Türk Cumhuriyeti"?? Richwales (talk) 05:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Support:
- Answer To Richwales:
FACT 1: Kuzey = North; Kuzeyli = Northern
So, the direct translation of Kuzey Kıbrıs Türk Cumhuriyeti is equivalent to Turkish Republic of NORTH Cyprus.
The expression Kuzey was translated to Northern in country name wrongly, but on purpose, considering the following facts:
1. If North was used for Turkish Cyprus, then there remains West-East-South to Greek Cyprus. To prevent such a comprehension, Kuzey was translated to Northern to indicate that there are also NorthWEST and NorthEAST parts of Turkish Cyprus as well.
FACT 2: But, since the name of the country is so long, after a while the Short Form "North Cyprus" was adopted. In presidency page of TRNC (http://www.kktcb.eu/index.php), you can see North Cyprus, even in the home page. Also, The Country registers itself as NORTH Cyprus in membership to international organizations:
- European Countries Biologists Association (ECBA)
- European Pool Championships
- World Easykart Championship
- Bocce Friendship Tournaments etc.
You can never show an instance of Northern Cyprus in membership to an international organization.
In this official letter, TRNC abreviated to "North Cyprus" 6 times! You can never see "Northern Cyprus" (alone) in official documents, as it is the case in the above reference.
Also, in membership to international organizations, you can see many North Cyprus. But, you can see NO Northern Cyprus.
Also, The followings are for Taivo:
- 1) Most popular English-language encyclopedias:
Found 138 results: Books: 34 | Journal Articles: 11 | Magazine Articles: 9
Newspaper Articles: 82 | Encyclopedia Articles: 2
- 2) English-language maps and atlases:
- 2a: [National Geographic]:
- 2a1. Do Ctrl+F (write “North Cyprus”) to see North Cyprus in the page.
- 2a2. In the article, you can see “The United Nations has long advocated creation of a federal state consisting of two politically equal communities, rejecting the North’s continued demand for sovereignty.”
- 2b: [Rand McNally] , write “North Cyprus” in Search box (on the left-upper corner) to see that “We found 41 results for North Cyprus in our PRODUCTS and TRAVEL PLANNING.” It mentions about the country North Cyprus in these 41 links.
- 2c: : [Hammonds] : write “North Cyprus” in Search box to see that there is NO “North Cyprus”. Search for “Northern Cyprus” results with 0 occurrence(s) as well.
- 3) English-language news media:
North Cyprus: 114 Hits
Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus: 41 Hits
Northern Cyprus: 124 Hits. (124 – 41 = 83 Hits; Northern Cyprus ALONE)
NOTICE: THOUGH THE PHRASE “NORTHERN CYPRUS” IN THE SAME WEB SITE OCCURS MORE THAN “NORTH CYPRUS”, THIS COMES FROM THE FACT THAT THE PHRASE “NORTHERN CYPRUS” IS INCLUDED IN THE LONG FORM PHRASE “TURKISH REPUBLIC OF NORTHERN CYPRUS”! HENCE, IT MISLEADS THOSE WHO THINK THAT THERE ARE MANY “NORTHERN CYPRUS” AROUND. THE PHRASE NORTHERN CYPRUS ALONE IS LESS THAN NORTH CYPRUS.
North Cyprus: Your search for "North Cyprus" produced 115 items.
It is a fact that there is no official use of “Northern Cyprus” alone in international organizations, but there are many official use of “North Cyprus” alone.
Also please note that the creator of the article is Chinese origin (as understood from his User Page clearly), and he may not know the usage of the Country's name. That is natural. TheMoreEnergyTheMoreAction (talk) 21:06, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: The banned user who is continuing to create more sockpuppets (such as this latest one, TheMoreEnergyTheMoreAction) is simply going to need to accept the fact that he is not welcome to contribute to Wikipedia — period — unless and until he can convince the "powers that be" to lift his ban and reinstate him. Evading a ban (such as by making socks) is only going to antagonize others. No matter how valid your arguments might be, people are going to reject whatever you say irrespective of its merits — and even if some people might agree with what you're saying, they're not likely to support your view, because they'll be concerned that it would look like they're going along with your inappropriate editing tactics.
Stated another way: No matter how good your arguments might possibly be for changing this article's main name to "North Cyprus", no one is going to even consider making such a change as long as the main proponent of this change is someone who is openly defying the rules as you are doing — because supporting your proposal would, in most people's view, be seen as an approval of your ongoing misbehaviour.
Ideally, perhaps your comments ought to stand or fall on their own merits, without regard for who is making them or how they are being posted — but, in reality, the only reasonable thing you can do right now is to stop evading your ban and hope that (after the dust has had a chance to settle) maybe the rest of us will go back and take a look at this issue. For the sake of the position you want to promote, please stop now. Richwales (talk) 22:16, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment: Although (as I indicated earlier) I'm not going to support the idea of renaming the article, I do think it's reasonable to consider a new section mentioning the various names applied to the TRNC. Such a section could cite several sources using the name "Northern Cyprus" — as well as the sources (evidently some do exist) which use "North Cyprus" — plus, of course, the formal "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". A section of this sort would also be an appropriate place to talk about names used by officials of other countries which do not want to be seen as acknowledging the legitimacy of the TRNC as a legal entity — such as "the north", or "Turkish-occupied Cyprus", or even (as I believe I've seen) "the 'TRNC'" (with quotation marks around the name itself to mark it as being so-called). I'm not in any way suggesting this as a sop to the banned user or his sockpuppet avatars, but I'm willing to acknowledge verifiable source material even if I don't approve of its provenance. Richwales (talk) 21:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.