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This page apparently has been named 'Safavids' which is not a good spelling for the correct pronunciation. I guess the best spell for the word would be 'Safavies'('Safavi' as for single). I have changed the spells in this page and the page for 'Isfahan'; but we need to change the page’s name as well or somehow mirror the information from 'Safavid' page to 'Safavi' page. This is very important because nobody with proper history knowledge would look for 'Safavid'!! ; Especially the Persian users. I ask from the experienced guys please do this and make it right.
P.S. I come from Isfahan, Iran and I'm currently living in England
(the below from my user page)
Hello Camembert
This is about the 'Safavid': Seeing everything back to what it was so quickly was much unexpected. As about 'Safavies' I made it from 'Safavi' according to English language. The count for 'Safavi' in Google is 8230 and for 'Safavid' is 10800. I appreciate what you are saying but you have to understand that there is no pronunciation of ’d’ in the word. I guess the mistake comes from the foreign writers which have not been familiar with Farsi. Anyway as we all trying to develop the encyclopedia it's better to teach people the proper spell and pronunciation of the word. As I said before there is no need to delete 'Safavid' we can have that in the 'safavi' page as an alternative spell so people can get to the page with both spells but they learn the right one.
If you want to discuss this matter please leave your note on Safavid or this page. Thank you
Thank you Camembert
Just one question, did anyone consider "Safavieh" Dynasty...It has 506,000 hits on google.Think Elizabeth, Elizabethan.--Gyve Safavi
The pronounciation issue is explained in Wikipedia Article Safavi
I changed some points in the article. Because what was mentioned is in my opinion contradictory to the historical facts. The word Turkic when applied to a people means they are of Turkic (=Mongoloid) stock, while the Safavid soldiers where people of mosly Iranian stock who were linguistically Turkified. That's why the designation Turkic-speaking is more correct for them. Qizilbash is a Turkic word used in Azerbaijani and Uzbek etc. and not in (Istanbuli)Turkish. The (Istanbuli)Turkish for that word is Kizil-bas. Turkic means "related to the family of language spoken by the Turks" and does not mean (Istanbuli) Turkish at all.
It is a well-established fact that the standard and official language of the Safavid government was Persian. There is not even one single official document of the Safavid times found to be written in any other language than Persian. I have been studying the documents of that period and I know what I am talking about. Azerbaijani was not official at all. It was only used by the Safavid kings to talk to some of the military officiers who might have not learned Persian yet. But all the official correspondences were done merely in Persian.
Azarbaijan is the area to the south of the Aras River and is not divided by Turkey and Iran or others. It is in its entirety a part of Iran as always. If you want to refer to Aran, the newly forme republic to the north of Aras, it is a new forgery to call that area "Azerbaijan" too. The historical reference here is about the real Azarbaijan not the new fake one. --Mani1 11:13, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
POV and citing of hearsay are not helpful.
Just to add something: The best source on the Safavids is Iran Under the Safavids by Roger Savory, Harvard University. This is the only major work on the Safavid dynasty. In it the author shows that the Safavids were of Iranic and non-Turkic extraction who were later turkicized. A good proof of this is also the Taati poems left by Shaykh Safi-ad-din Ardabili according to two sources. These poems are in the Safwat as-Safa. There is no works of Turkish from him. Also the Shaykh Safi-ad-din was of a Sunnite Shafi'ite extraction whereas all Sunni Turks are of Hanafite extraction. Finally I did not find the refrence mentioned by Tabib on "ganj-turk" or "pir-turk" in the published Safwat as-Safa. If such statements did exist, there would indeed be no dispute in the scholarly world about the Safavid origins. So in reality Shaykh Safi-Ad-Din was a Sunnite Shafi'ite of Iranic extraction, but two centuries after him, the Safavid family became turcophones. This is also mentioned in the book by Roger Savory.
I regret that I am being dragged into this kind of dispute. I did my best to avoid conflict by initially trying to incorporate some of Pantherarosa's remarks. However, I cannot accept such flagrant lies and propaganda.
1. Pantherarosa writes,
2. Pantherarosa writes,
3. Pantherarosa writes,
4. Pantherarosa writes,
In summary, I want to reiterate, Safavids were ofd Turkic origin. The official and palace language of the state, especially in the early period (during Shah Ismail I and Tahmasb I) was a Turkish dialect that is today being called Azeri(Azerbaijani) language. This is a well-established historical fact. Many European travellers who visited Safavids in medieval period testified that Safavid kings spoke Turkic language. Persian language was also widely used as an official language but Persian language, along with the Arab language was sort of lingua franca in the medieval Muslim Orient and was widely used in official level and as a language of literature and science. This is largely a case in all the countries throughout the region independently of their ethnic origin and native language, even in the Ottoman Empire. And I hope, nobody would seriously claim that Ottoman Empire was not a Turkic state either...--Tabib 14:56, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I do not want to waste my time to prove what is already obvious. I protest against continuous reverts and flagrant pan-Persian propagandan waged by Pantherarosa. Below, I give further evidence to Turkic belonging of the Safavids.
Searching the internet, I came across an interesting political article by [Masoud Kazemzadeh ], PhD, US scholar of Iranian origin, who criticizes past and present Iranian pan-Persian ethnic policies and advocates so-called pan-Iranian approach comprising all the ethnicities of Iran. Below is the excerpts on Safavids published in US-based [Iranian National Front] web-site:
As to Pantherarosa's alleged "Safavid" origin, I dont comment on that but, anyway, this statement doesn't present him as a neutral objective party either.
As to petty "K" vs. "Q" (Ak Koyunlu-Ağ Qoyunlu) issue, I have searched Google and found 2,750 and 1,370 results for Ak Koyunlu and Kara Koyunlu respectively, and only 664 and 680 results for Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu. Therefore, my choice of splling was correct. Refer to Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things
--Tabib 11:37, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I can't stop marvelling at how user Pantherarosa deliberately denies all the evidences that contradict his biased POV, and at the same time, contrives to do that without actually citing his own sources, which would testify that the Safavids were of "Kurdish" or "Persian" (in a sence of ethnicity and not geography) origin.
Pantherarosa writes,
This is your *claim* and it has no relation to the subject matter of the present discussion. But you know what, I do NOT believe you...
Pantherarosa writes,
Teymur? We are talking about Safavids! Of course, everyone familiar with history knows that Timur invaded Iran in early 1380s. I checked the sources I cited in my earlier message (namely [Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th Edition], [Encarta Dictionary ], [Encarta Encyclopedia], [Friesian School website ] and Iranian (!) author Shapur Ghazemi's article from [Iran Chamber website] and found no reference to your "thirteenth century comment". Instead, here's what Ghazemi's article writes,
In short, don't distract the discussion from the major point, i.e. Turkic belonging of the Safavids. The sources I have brought (Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta etc.) are rather respected and trustworthy. I twice cited even Iranian authors, who themselves recognize that Safavids were Turkic-speking (!).
I want to stress that User Pantherarosa in his "reply" did not even attempt to comment on these sources. Seemingly, his personal POV is more credible than the sources I named. We go on...
Pantherarosa writes,
It appears that it is user "Pantherarosa" who has a problem with portraying history as it is. The real question is: Why deny the Turkic roots of the Safavids if Safavid kings spoke Turkic, if Shah Ismail I himself entered the history not only as the founder of the Safavid State, but also as the author of wonderful poems written in (Azeri-)Turkic?!! Why allege that user Tabib has a "problem" with Persians, whereas himself allowing for a number of insulting remarks as to the race (see earlier message on Turkic "Mongoloid" remarks by Pantherarosa), and ethnic belonging of present-day Turkic Azeris of Iran (whom the current Persian nationalist propaganda brands "Turkified Persians")?
As to Ak Koyunlu & Kara Koyunlu vs. Aq Qoyunlu & Qara Qoyunlu, I have already substantially answered this question and have no desire to further discuss it. Google gives twice (Kara Koyunlu) and trice (Ak Koyunlu) as much results for my variants of spelling. So I can't add more than what I've already said. Refer to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Btw, this issue has no direct relation to Safavids either, so, I urge Pantherarosa not to distract the discussion from the major issue.
Pantherarosa writes,
Pantherarosa means to say that I intentionally avoided answering this point (despite his repeated failure to answer my arguments). I will stay on this last point in detail.
The sentence in question is as following:
Initially, I added Tabriz and Kazvin before Isfahan, in order to show the consecutive change in the state's capital cities and state more explicitly that Isfahan was not the only capital of the Safavid state. I want to stress, that previous version gave the impression that Isfahan was the only capital of the Safavids, it mentioned Tabriz as capital at one place, but it was really an episodic mentioning, Kazvin was not mentioned at all.
Initially the capitals were the Azerbaijanian cities of Tabriz and afterwards Kazvin. But due to Safavid-Ottoman wars the Safavid kings had to gradually move the capital to the inner parts of the empire, first from Tabriz to Kazvin and then to Persian city of Isfahan. This is a very important historical detail, which facilitated to the gradual transformation of the Safavid state from originally Turkic-dominated to predominantly Persian-dominated state. Unfortunately, this detail didn't suit Pantherarosa's nationalist agenda and he deleted this part, along with the Turkic origins of the Safavids.
Isfahan, being the third and last capital of the Safavids bears the most prominent samples of Safavid architecture indeed. This is certainly not to say that Tabriz and Kazvin do not have Safavid architecture. For example, Sadeqiyeh mosque in Tabriz completed in 1657 during Shah Abbas II is one example. But certainly, Isfahan as the last and most long-standing capital of the Safavids has more Safavid-period building than earlier two capitals, which moreover, were occasionally captured and razed by the Ottoman troops during Safavi-Ottoman wars.
Considering all the stated above, I have reverted Pantherarosa's biased editions omitting Turkic origins of the Safavids and also, I have made the following edition to the aforementioned part on Isfahan and Safavid architecture.
"Fine arts, poetry and sciences flourished under Safavid patronage. Shah Ismail I himself wrote poems in Turkic (present-day Azeri), as well as Persian and Arabic languages. In this period, literature, architecture and handicrafts such as tilemaking, pottery and textiles developed and great advances were made in bookbinding, decoration and calligraphy. XVI c. Tabriz evolved as the center of carpetmaking and miniature painting of the period. Isfahan, being the third and last capital of the Safavids bears the most prominent samples of the Safavid architecture."
If Pantherarosa has some objections on the substance, I call him to argue directly on the subject matter, and not distract the discussion with various unrelated comments.
All recent contentions were in response to user TABIB and therefore admissible as relaying to this discussion.
No matter what: The Safavids were of Indo European/Iranian/Kurdish ethnicity, a fact that will surely not be altered by ignorami of any creed or calling Pantherarosa 16:45, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Outstanding! So many titles of the books and NO single mention of "Kurdish Persian" origin of the Safavids!
I want to stress that up untill now, Pantherarosa did not comment on the sources I cited, including world-wide known online resources and even Iranian authors themselves.
Pantherarosa points that "People speaking a Language other than the one of their own creed does not render them of the ethnicity of that language". It is an axiom and this axiom is also the key to understanding why Safavids used Persian language so widely (even more so than Turkic Azeri language) in official correspondence and culture. Any more or less familiar with history of the Middle and Near East person would tell you that Persian language was a language of poetry, science and largely, official correspondence, a sort of lingua franca, as I noted in my previous messages. Persian language was used not only in Safavid court but even in Ottoman court and official correspondence and Indian (Moghol) court. I suppose nobody would argue that Ottomans and Moghols were Persian.
But, Safavids were native Turkic speakers, and not native Persian-speakers precisely because, they continued to use and to promote Turkic language in official correspondence, poetry and science despite the fact that Turkic did not enjoy the same high status as Persian did.
As to Pantherarosa's remarks as to the race, yes, I do consider them insulting because they falsely, and perhaps intentionally, equalled Turkic with Mongoloid ("Turkish/Mongoliod stock").
I wonder, if there is ANY point of further discussing with Pantherarosa, when he constantly sets forth claims and contrives not to bring any single argument supporting his own view. It seems to me that and there is no single Wikipedian who would interfere to stop this crazy revert war and I am completely left alone to waste my time with this pointless discusion.
I have nothing to add to the discussion, sinnce I've already brought enough facts to which Pantherarosa came up with no single concrete responce.
User "Tabib" is apparently not capable of dealing with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
--Pantherarosa 18:32, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First of all, to those arguing about origins. It's the language that establishes the uniqueness of ethnicity. I.e. the Persians, Turks look alike Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, etc., but what makes them unique is language. So, please, don't try to measure the head to determine so called "Iranian origin" or "Mongoloid" origin. To put it correctly "Mongoloid" is a definition of human type with specific physiological features, as opposed to "Europeoid" (not "Iranoid", as there is no such meaning). Turk, just like Persian, Italian, etc. is a definition of unique language groups or ethnicities.
It's interesting that Shah Ismail's origin was recorded in encyclopedias and books for years if not decades, and still our Persian neighbors choose to argue and rewrite history in their own way. Isn't it enough my friends? After all, what difference does it make if Ismail Safavi was Turk, Azeri, Persian, Kurd, or whoever? The man built an empire, converted everyone to Shia and was a deep religious believer in his ideology. Are you going to change his language or maybe the poems he wrote in Turkic, or maybe the letters he wrote in Turkic to Ottoman Sultan Selim. The person chose his ethnic belonging by speaking certain language as his own tongue.
To confirm his Turkic origin for yourselves, read Bernard Lewis (Prof. Princeton University) book named "The Middle East". It's only 10 bucks on Amazon, for those wishing to read their own history from authoritative Western source, and wishing to stop allegation that end up in no use.
And what difference does it make if it's "Istambuli" or Anatolian Turkish to put it correctly or Azeri Turkish, it's just dialects. Is there a difference between Persian spoken in Khorasan and Shiraz, just because some words are not used in other dialect? Come on. This is not serious, and you're only wasting your time. Don't think about changing/faking past, think about working for better future.
Just an Azeri TURK
What business do you have, deleting other people's comments? Tabib's views were far more balanced and void of the nonsense that ehnicity is based on language! Americans of Turkish descent (e.g.), speaking hardly any Turkish, are still considered ETHNICAL TURKS, I would presume. Cut the ....... and behave human!
Someone please revert! Do'nt know how myself, yet --Deli-Eshek 10:32, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
User "Deli-Eshek" (?!) we are not trading emotions on Wikipedia, or are we? Ethnicity is surely not chosen by anyone , but destined before birth. Any sentiments with regards to one's ethnicity are at everybody's fancy, will however not change the creed, which one was borne into, one would reckon. --Pantherarosa 15:41, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Abraham Lincoln, (attributed) 16th president of US (1809 - 1865)
When I was informed about the discusions in this respectable forum about the origins of Sheykh Safi-al-Din and his descendant Shah Ismail Safavi I, I remembered the above-mentioned words of Abraham Lincoln. Indeed there has been agenda of the certain circles in IRI and previous during Shah regime to falsify the history and in this aspect, the historical personalities whom ethnic minority (shal we say powerless majority) in this country, namely Azerbaijani Turks, have built their vision on. By "designating" Babek (Anti-Arab rebel of 9th century), poet Nizami Gandjavi and now Shah Ismayil Safavi I, as Talish, Farsi, or Kurd, the politicians in Shah Persia and IRI, have not just tried to kill the devotion and interest of the Turkic people in this country to their ancestors, but also have ignored and closed their eyes on the major historical data about the Turkic origins of these historical figures in the world libraries. Below I will provide major and credible sources of the wolrd-known scholars and encyclopedias which have indentified Shah Ismayil and his ancestors being Turk (Turkman, Turkish and etc). My postings will be in as many parts and as many sources that can extinguish the great imagination of the opposite thinkers.
1)
"The establishment of the Gajar capital in Tehran at the end of the eighteenth century was merely the last manifestation of what may well be a permanent tendency in the life of Iran. There are manifold reason of this phenomenon. Moreover, the Turkish and Mongol origins of the earliest dynasties certainly played a major part in causing the capitals to be situated in the north, and especially along the main invasion route following Alburz into Azarbaijan. The princes of these basically nomadic states were anxious both to be near their tribes and to avoid the excessive heat of the climate farther to the south. This helps to explain the evolution of Tabriz, which, despite all the vicissitudes, was the capital successively of the Mongols, the Qara Qoyunlu, the Aq Qoyunlu, and finally the Safavids, all of whom stemmed originally from the Turkmen tribes of the north-west from the thirteenth to the sixteenth centuries. Tabriz was abandoned only for short periods, and always for other cities in the same region: Maragheh, whose, fertile pasture land had attracted Hulagu, Ardabil, the cradle of the Safavids; and Sultaniyeh."
The Cambridge History of Iran (in eight Volumes). Volume 1. The Land of Iran. Edited by W.B.Fisher, Cambridge at the University Press, 1968. Page 434.
2)
"Who was Ismail, who made such an impact on the Persia of his time and whose influence was still felt centuries later?…We have already met his father, Shaikh Haidar, and his grandfather Junaid as notable enterprising characters in Turkmen history, politically ambitious representatives of the Safaviyya, a widespread sufi order centered on Ardabil in the south-western coastal region of the Caspian Sea….
In this respect Shaikh Safi was a typical religious leader, a representative of Folk Islam far removed from the official theology, whose spokesmen viewed his career with grave suspicion. But in no other regard: for even his origins as a member of a respected family which had lived in Ardabil for generations, are by no means typical of the religious leaders of the time, who normally came from the lower classes."
The Cambridge History of Iran. Volume 6. The Timurid and Safavid Periods. Edited by Peter Jackson and late Laurence Lockhart. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1986. Page 190-191
Posted by Ulvi Ismayil --Ulvi I. 09:34, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
The following sources also claim Shaikh Safi and Safavids as etnically Turkic, sometimes mixed with Arabs and Creeks of course for known reasons. Both Shaikh Safi and Shah Ismail Safavi I, claimed to be from the Prophet Muhammed's family (i.e. Seyyid) and grandmother of Ismayil was of course a Greek Princess of Trabzon.
Thus sources 3 and 4.
3) "Safavid Period
Early in the fourteenth century Rashid al-Din, the Il-Khanid Vazir, wrote a letter to Shaykh Is’haq Safi al-Din in which he expressed great respect for this revered head of a Sufi order at Ardabil to the North of Tabriz.
Safi al-Din claimed to be a descendant, twenty generations emoved, of the Imam Musa Kazem, and hence, still farther back, of ‘Ali, son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad. After his death in 1334 at age eighty-five, his descendants became the traditional heads of this Safaviyya order. Sadr al-Din, his son and successor, was visited by Timur who freed a body Turkish prisoners at his request: settled in the region these Turkish families became the power base of the Safi family. A grandson of the founder Junayd, married a sister of Uzun Hasan, and his son, Haydar, married Marta, daughter of the Greek ruler of Trebizond. Marta gave birth to three sons, one of them Isma’il. These details of genealogy are given to suggest the complex ethnic origins of the dynasty. Originally Arab, it underwent Turkish and Greek infusions. Throughout the fourteenth century the family spoke and wrote Turkish. …Menaced by the Ottoman Turks who were of the Sunni sect, he (Isma’il) took the bold step of proclaiming that the Shi’a sect was the faith of his state. By so doing he employed religious unification in an attempt to achieve political unification. His decision was warmly supported by the seven strong Turkish tribes of Azerbaijan called Qizil Bash, or “Red Heads,” after the color of their turbans."
Wilber, Donald N. By, Iran. Past and Present. Ninth edition. From Monarchy to Islamic Republic. Princeton University Press, Princeton New Jersey 1981. Page 60.
4)
"The Safavids
As we have seen, the Turkish tribes accepted Islam with great zeal and fanaticism and were loyal to its institutions. Perhaps because the discipline, devotion, and obedience to the leader practiced in the Sufi orders were similar to the life in the tribes, the Turks were attracted to these orders. Gradually the coming of the tribesmen added an economic and military dimensions to the life of the orders. In addition to the spiritual leader, there were “lay” brothers who took care of the economic needs of the order. There were also warriors who protected the community and fought for the advancement of Islam. There were quite a number of these orders in Asia Minor and Azarbayjan (4). As the Ilkhan kings became Shi’i, a number of the Turkish tribes did the same and there came into being Sufi orders, which were Shi’i….
One of these orders, which had a large following among the Turkish tribes, was called Safi or Safavi, in honor of the first leader Sheykh Safi who died in 1334….
It was apparent that the Safavi dynasty founded by Esma’il was not just another principality established by the adventurous ambition of a warrior. From the very beginning the dynasty was established on two foundations. One of these was Shi’ism and the other Persian, and Esma’il was concentrated more on the first than the second. His hatred of the Sunnis knew no bounds and his persecution of the Sunnis was ruthless. The alternative for the majority of the Persians, who were Sunnis at the time, was either conversion to Shi’ism or death.
The Ottomans, who had had extraordinary success in Europe and had sealed the fate of the Byzantine empire by the capture of Constantinople, were eager to go eastward and occupy the raditional lands of Islam. Indeed, Bayezid II (1481-1512) was in touch with the Uzbek chief Sheybak Khan in an attempt to nip Esma’il’s ambitions in the bud. Eventually the Ottomans did conquer Arabia, the Ferile Crescent, and the North Africa, and the would have extended their empire to the Central Asia had it not been for the Safavids. In his letter to Esma’il, Bayezid gave him “fatherly” advice and asked him to refrain from shedding Sunni blood and asked him to refrain from shedding Sunni blood and desecrating Sunni graves and cautioned him to be wary of the Persians because they “are a people who will not obey a king who is not one of them”(6). This reference to the fact that Esma’il was not a Persian when he was claiming that he was a descendant of the Sasanian kings, must have cut him to the quick. When Esma’il defeated and captured Uzbek leader, he had his skin filled with straw and sent it to Bayezid."
Armajani, Yahya. IRAN, The Modern Nations in Historical Perspectives. Prentice-Hall, Inc. Englewood, Cliffs, New Jersey. 1972 Page: 91-92
(4) The founder of the Ottoman Empire, Osman, was a ghazi warrior in one of these orders.
(6) Nasrollah Falsafi, Chand Maqale-ye Tarikhi, (A new Historical Essays_ (Tehran: Univesity of Tehran Press, 1962), p. 6.
Posted by Ulvi Ismayil and to be continued.
--Ulvi I. 09:35, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello Nariman,
Thank you for your posting. I will respond to all your questions in these days, but we have to finish with Safavids first. I would aslo request you to post your messages separately in the future and not over my messages, to avoid the confusion.
Thanks,
Ulvi
First, I call other users not get distracted from the topic. We’ll talk about Nizami Ganjevi (Azerbaijanian poet btw,) and others next time in another talkpage. There is also no need for long quotations from books, unless they are directly linked to the origin of the Safavids.
I would also call user Pantherarosa to refrain in the future from ill-concealed abusive statements (see, his last message addressed to me). Second, my protracted silence should by no means be considered as my acceptance of Pantherarosa’s fabricated statements (Pantherarosa, apparently hurried to remove label disputed from the Wikipage). Unlike that person, I take every argument of my opponent seriously and try to find out the truth as it is.
Anyway, I spent my limited free time these days finding out the truth about Safwat-as-Safa chronicles, Safavids origins as well as the picture of Shah Ismail I (the FIRST- !), all of which are principal questions.
Anyway, let’s go again point by point to expose once again Pantherarosa’s “deeds”:
1) PICTURES and Pantherarosa’s baseless accusations on my “copyright violations”
Pantherarosa writes:
First, I want to stress that I had not only RIGHT, but also permission to use this picture of Shah Ismail the FIRST and the map of the Safavids state by the time I put it in the page. I got permission to use the map of the Safavid State ([2]) from Steve Hoge, copyright holder of the map from W. W. Norton & Company.
I also contacted Mr. Toni Zahedi the creator of the http://homepage.mac.com/zahedi/ web-site which contains the picture of Shah Ismail Safavi. Btw, Mr. Toni Zahedi is NOT the descendant of Safavids, as Pantherarosa incorrectly (or intentionally-?) notes. He is the descendant of Sheikh Zahed (XIII c.), spiritual teacher of Sheikh Safi who was of Kurdish origin. He has no direct link to the Safavid family, but Sheikh Safi married in XIII c. Sheikh Zahed’s daughter. This makes Zahedi family members the RELATIVES but in NO WAY “DESCENDANTS”, as Pantherarosa states!). Mr. Toni Zahedi, a very kind and noble man by the way, is not the actual copyright holder of this image, but I still contacted him and got the permission to use this image downloaded from his web-site. However, I want to underline that this same image can be found in a number of other web-sites as well. E.g. Iranian historian Shahbazi’s web-site ([3])
Most importantly, I learned the pre-history of this image, which was one of the reasons why I did not respond for so many days. The person portrayed in this picture is Shah Ismayil the FIRST, the founder of the Safavid State. The picture was created by an unknown Venetian author (arguably in XVI c.) and the original is kept in the Uffizi Gallery museum in Florence, Italy. Any historical catalogue of book which have this picture, describes him as Shah Ismail the FIRST!
Moreover, Shah Ismail the second was in power for very short period of time from 1576-1577 (before that he was kept in prison and also was a drug addict) and, no foreigner traveled to the Safavi court during his time. Therefore, it is impossible for any European to make his portrait. And certainly, nobody would make this portrait afterwards, given that Shah Ismail II did not leave a “prominent place” in history of Safavids (to put it mildly).
It is also quite possible that this picture in question was drawn afterwards when Shah Ismail I was not alive, on the order of some Safavid shah, who wanted to have his forefather’s picture. But in any case, this couldn’t be Shah Ismail the second, who wasn’t famous at all and who as I already said did not receive any foreign guests in his court. In any case, belonging of this picture to Shah Ismail I is a fact and needs no further disputes.
Therefore, before erasing pictures and accusing me in “copyright violations” Pantherarosa should first clarify the issue.
2) Safwat as-Safa and allegations of “Kurdish” origin of the Safavids and Pantherarosa’s half-truth
Throughout the whole discussion Pantherarosa used one single argument in favor of his claim that Safavids were allegedly of Kurdish origin. He constantly referred to Safwat-as Safa, a XIV c. chronicle written by Tevekkul ibn-Bazzaz and later in XVII c. reproduced in Silsilat-an-Nasab-i-Safaviyyeh, written by Sheikh Husein ibn Sheikh Abdal Zahedi (a descendant of the Kurdish Sheikh Zahed of XIII c., the spiritual teacher of Sheikh Safi). (Btw, Pantherarosa, falsely writes that “Silsilat” was written on orders of the early Safaviyyeh Sufi Masters, before the dynasty's founding”, whereas it was written much later when Safavid State was already in place)
In one of the versions of “Safwat-as-Safa” (XIV c.) Firuz-shah mentioned in the family tree of the Safavids is really named as “Al-Kurdi-al-Sadjani(Sagani) Piruz-shah Zerrin Kulah”, which is later reproduced in “Silsilat-an-Nasab-i-Safaviyyeh” (XVII c.). However, and this is of utmost importance, in that very same chronicles, Sheikh Safi is numerously referred as “Turkish/Turkic saint” (“Pir-i-turk”) and “Turkic young man/Young Turk” (“Genj-i-turk”)!
The Turkic belonging of Sheikh Safi was later documented in XVI c. chronicle “Djahan array-I shah Ismail Safavi” – one of the major sources on Safavids written during Shah Ismail I.
I consider the fact that Pantherarosa’ having access to these resources concealed them and told only the half-truth as an attempt to fabricate history and promote his pan-Persian nationalist agenda.
Moreover, Safwat-as-Safa written in XIV c. and rewritten several times afterwards, is a hagiographic chronicle containing lots of historical inaccuracies. It underwent several modifications as a result of the Safavid dynasty’s deliberate actions to promote their ancestry from the Arab line of Imam Ali, cousin of Prophet Muhammad. These inaccuracies are widely documented by Western, Azerbaijanian and Persian historians, including those referred by Pantherarosa himself.
In short, speaking of "The Safavids", traced all the way to the EPONYM, Safi ad-Din, it would seem legitimate to attribute the ethnic link to HIM. All the historical sources recognize Sheikh Safi and his descendants were Turks. The whole history of the Safavid State shows that this was an Iranian state headed by a Turkic-speaking dynasty. Even if we assume that a XI c. ancestor of the Safavids was not of Turkic origin, this doesn’t mean that Safavids themselves were not Turks by the time of Sheikh Safi and certainly, by the time of the Safavids coming into power in Iran. Safavids were Turkic-speaking and this historical fact should be spelled out in the relevant Wikipedia article(s)!
Below, I attach excerpts from several Western scholars specializing in medieval Muslim Orient whom I contacted for an expert opinion:
--Tabib 08:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Users Ulvi and Tabib obviously wish to adhere to hearsay and insubstantial QUOTATIONS, which they do not scholarly analyze.
It is now up to Wikipedia Admin staff to avert another instance of disinformation, for which Wikipedia seems to be increasingly growing notorious, due to the activities of "overzealous amateurs".--Pantherarosa 10:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I hereby notify that I see no further point in arguing with a man who stubbornly refuses to accept the facts, and labels the authoritative Western, and even Iranian sources as “hearsay” and arguments of “Turkish zealots”. I want to re-state the sources mentioned throughout the discussion that testify that Safavids were Turkic-speaking once again:
Medieval chronicles: Safwat-as-Safa (XIV c.), “Djahan array-i shah Ismail Safavi” (XVI c.), Silsilat-an-Nasab-i-Safaviyyah (XVIIIc.) (list far from being complete!)
Western sources: Cambridge History of Iran (in eight volumes). Vol 1. & 6., books by Donald Wilbert, Bernard Lewis, Yahya Armajani and many others, including expert opinions of Western scholars (see my previous message).
Iranian authors: Shapour Ghazemi, Masoud Kazemzade, indirectly Nasrullah Falsafi,(see his quote of sultan Bayazid's letter to shah Ismail). Btw, Falsafi, described by Pantherarosa as "the most eminent historian in the field", tried in vain to prove that Safavids were not Turkic and even not Kurdish, but PERSIAN (!)
Authoritative Internet sources: Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta, Friesian School web-site etc.
In short, if Cambridge History of Iran is a product of “Turkish zealots” and “hearsay”, then I do see how we can move forward with the discussion. Therefore, I see no other way but to resort to arbitration.
Other minor details: Zahedis and Safavids: Mr Toni Zahedi, who as I said is a very kind and noble man is not “descendant” but relative to the Safavid house through (as I already said) intermarriage back in XIII c. This relation is through Sheikh Safi’s daughter who married Sheikh Zahed’s son. (As I said, Sheikh Safi himself was married to Sheikh Zahe’d daughter). Zahedi family has no lineage to Safavids from father’s side. This is why I state that Zahedi’s are not descendants of Safavids (in Iran and in most parts of the world, lineage is followed from father’s side and not from mother’s side. So simple.)
Shah Ismail I picture: whether “idealized” (possibility of which I already explained in my earlier message) or not, seemingly, Pantherarosa doesn’t try to claim any more that this is Shah Ismail the second and not the First. That’s already positive. We don’t know how most of the historical figures looked like, but that doesn’t mean we cannot use historical pictures to visualize them.
--Tabib 12:58, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I just added the page numbers to the Part II for everyone's convinience and highlighet the major points of the sources brought by myself.
In this part we will witness that not only the British, American and Iranian National scholars identified Shaikh Safi and Safavis as Turkic (Turkmen and Turkish), but so did the French. Here what prominent French Scholar Furon Raymond says:
5) "Chapitre IX I. – Les Séfévides. Les rois turkménes régnaient sur l’Azerbaidjan. A Ardébil, vivait une famille pieuse, prétendant descendre d’Ali. C’était la famille des Séfévides, du nom de son chef Séfi ed’Din. Sa reputation était si grande qu’elle finit par inquiéter les rois turkménes qui la persécutèrent."
Source: Furon, Ramond. L’Iran. Perse et Afghanistan. Payot, Paris, 1951. Page 100.
Translation: "Safavids. The Turkmen kings that ruled over Azerbaijan. In Ardebil there lived a family that claimed to descend from Ali. This was the family of Safavids, whose name came from its chief Sefi ed’Din. The reputation of this family grew so much that it ended up bothering (other – U.I. ?) Turkmen rulers and they started to persecute this family.“"
Another participant in these discussions, I think Nariman asked a question: “The Safavids claimed to be the descendants of Sassanids as far as I know. If they were Turkish, they sure were unique Turkish clan.”
Indeed this sounds exactly similiar to this:
6)
"As Johannes Cuspinianus relates, he proposed greatly in his policy, both in Europe and in Asia, through not without a rival on the side of Persia, for here Uzun Hasan was now king, who has already been mentioned as a descendant of Hasan Beg, one of the early Turkish Amirs of Asia Minor. He ever opposed Sultan Muhammad valiantly, being the chief enemy whom the latter had now to compass among the many potentates who were his neighbors. This Uzun Hasan was indeed as much a Turk, by blood, as the Sultan himself, but he prided himself greatly in being of true Persian nationality, and not an Asiatic Turk (as was the Ottoman Sultan)…”
…When Isma’il found himself thus master of Tabriz he elected to proclaim himself the Grand Sophi of Persia; and he took as his title to be styled Isma’il Shaykh Ardebili Qizil Bash Ithna-ashariy (10) and what these names signified was as who should say, “Great Ismai’il, Restorer of the cotton or woolen Cap or Turban of Twelve colours””
(10) Page 110. In the text given as Ysmael Syach Arduelino Cuseluas Nazarij” The words, a mixture of Arabic and Persian, taken literally mean: “Isma’il, Shaykh of Ardebil, him of the Red Bonnet of Twelve (points)” "
Source: Don Juan of Persia. A Shi’ah Catholic 1560-1604. Translated and Edited with an Introduction by G. Le Strange. George Routledge & Sons, LTD Broadway House, Carter Lane, London. 1926. Page 97, 110.
Note: Don Juan was Uruch Beg (Oruj Bey), from Bayat tribe of Turkmens, who was one of the four secretaries of an Ambassador sent by Shah Abbas Safavi I to Europe in 1599. Uruch Beg later remained in Europe and converted to Roman Catholicism.
Thus this and other explanations clearly show what kind of “Turk” did Uzun Hasan and later his grandson Isma’il may have identified themselves. Second paragraph shows that, in opposite of what Iranian historians claim, Isma’il on his inaguration have never titled himself as the founder of the Sassanid State.
The next message will be about what Minorsky said about the origins of Safavids and critics by Azerbaijani Safavi scholar Oqtay Efendiyev about the biased interpretation of “Saffat as-Safa” by Iranian authors.
Posted by Ulvi Ismayil and to be continued --Ulvi I. 09:36, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Ulvi, why can't you follow Tabib's basic example and bring valid argumentation? Your point (5): The fact that some french writer is stating that Safavids proclaimed themselves descendants from the Prophet (through the latter's daughter and her husband Ali) proves nothing and is far fetched, as the Safavid founder Safi Al-Din was Sunni and would have N E V E R claimed such a heretical thing. Silly argumentation in face of so many better proofs, in this context. It was people, trying to lend more legitimacy to their leader, who made such contemporary claims.
(6): Every sensible reader knows that Uzun Hassan was Turkoman!! What is this "Part III" thing supposed to prove, with regards to Safavid's origin? Qizil Bash means RED HEAD, why state nonsense related to 'woolen' or 'cotton' 'cap', or 'turban' ?! btw, the Qizil Bash head gear consisted of a RED felt cap around which a WHITE turban was wrapped. The cap had 12 edges, representative of the 12 shiite Imams (Saints), the Ithnashereen. Ithnasher is Arabic for 12.
The 'Don Juan of Persia' quote is silly in itself as no one would claim himself 'of the red bonnet' (little red riding hood?). There is also nothing at all Arabic or Persian about that quoted (pseudo Italian) gibberish! Any Donkey should know better. Either Ulvi or the editors of such bibliographic text goofed it.
Tabib, you tend to bring a good string of arguments, but sometimes contradict these in the same sentence. This goes for the Kurdish Firooz Zerrinkulah story and the assertion, that at the same time the Safawids were Turks. This does not hold. You should maintain that the Safavids may very well have been Persian, or more precisely Kurdish, until they mixed with Turks (Sheikh Junaid Safavi) and adopted the Language and culture of the Turks. Junaid's son Haydar was naturally very much turkified and his son, Isma'il I Safavi, in turn obviously considered himself a Turkoman, as he spoke Turkic, wrote innocent poems in that language and introduced it as the official court language. He was an ESTABLISHED TURK!!! So, everybody: Why waste our time with claiming the Safavids having had Turkish background, while the first Safavid king was fully turkified by the time they grabbed supreme power. Be they what they may prior to the dynasty coming to power, not a single argument above proves actual Turkish origin but every one proves a Turkish end result! --Deli-Eshek 00:28, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Not to interrupt the little ethnic love-in here, but I thought I'd just say that my understanding was that the Safavids were of Turkish origin, although their background was so obscure that nobody was completely sure of it. Certainly it is more important to note that by the time they enter the clear light of history they were largely Turkish in language and culture. I am unfond of all these competing nationalisms - the question of whether people were ethnically pure Turks or Persians or whatever is simply absurd - Turks and Persians and whatever are, essentially, linguistic groups. Furthermore, trying to appropriate modern ideas of ethnicity and the nation into a discussion of the 14th century is inappropriate. But whatever, I generally support the arguments which Tabib and others have been making, and Pantherarosa's reasoning, in particular, seems intensely specious. john k 16:53, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Sigh...Tabib cites sources like the Cambridge History of Iran and Encarta, not obscure internet sources. john k 07:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For the sake of intelligence, if not dignity, this discussion should end with grace. While everybody agrees that Ismail i Safavi had actually attained a Turkish culture, both by birth and by learning, it has been established and stated by all parties, who contributed to the article, that his forefathers were indeed Kurds (Firooz/Pirooz Zerrin Kulah). it would be wise therefor to make this dual perception the foundation of the statement, with respect of the SAFAVID's very nature.
At this moment the discussion looks as tainted with heavy Turkish bias, which is in no ones interest, especially not in the interest of our sincere Turkish cause! It makes us look like people who are pushing their own agendas. Aloof of learning and heritage. The worst possible impression created, when actually trying to make a valid point. Please gents, give yourselves a push.--Deli-Eshek 08:07, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia, an international platform, which is neither concerned with petty ethnical causes, nor adolescent POV. We want knowledge here and not a heap of unreflected quotations and personal interpretations. Who cares about your personal problems on this platform? If you have something to bolster your contributions with, in a pertinent fashion, quote your bibliographical sources with precision and hold the quotations against a contester's, saving the Wikipedia reader from your own sentimentalism. This is going too far. L. I. GERASIMOVA --LIGerasimova 23:24, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is a mess! Safavids do not seem to have felt all that Turkic/Turkoman after all. They rallied under the LION AND SUN coat of arms (un-Tukic, but very Persian) and even used indigenous Persian names such as Tahmasp. Why lable them Kurdish?? The Kurdish people are widely considered Persian/Iranian! NPOV measures overdue. Seems Wikipedia is descending to a below zero level of personal vendettas and happy POV posting, here.
It strikes me that Britannica is notably reluctant to go into the Safavids' ethnicity in any way. In the Safavid Dynasty article, they call them an Iranian dynasty, and simply note that Ismail attracted Turkmen support. The Isma'il I article says nothing about his ethnic background. The article on Safi od-Din is equally obscure and unclear.
Columbia says nothing about their ethnic origins, but notes that they were Turkic-speaking. Encarta notes them as the most prominent of a group of "mostly Turkish" dynasties in Northwestern Iran. It seems to me that Safi al-Din's ethnicity is up in the air. I would suggest that we avoid mention of ethnicity so far as possible, and simply note that by the time of Ismail, they were speaking a Turkic language. john k 08:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I discovered that Tabib seems to try to pull a fast one on us all: He apparently attempts to rigg this discusson with the help of some "buddies", one of them a certain "Parviz". Everybody, please check Tabib's "contributions" list. He tried to corrupt the editor Deli-Eshek (another "Turkish Cause" poster, above) and asked him to get in touch by email! He may also be using the editor aka "Ulvi I." as a sock-puppet, as could be suspected from his message to Deli-Eshek on the latter's Personal Page. Foul game should not be tolerated here. I have a big big questionmark as to possible "Turkish" motives on the SAFAVIDS article in general. A real shame! --LIGerasimova 09:29, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is heartening to see people concerning themselves with reason, on this page. I shall be following users LIGerasimova's and John's postings, as they seem to promise a final solution --Pantherarosa 13:47, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Despite of repeated attempts, the content lacks depth, especially with respect to plausible proof of Turkish origin of Safi Al-Din, which seems to have been the main obstacle for arriving at a universally acceptable consensus. Erratic, and apparently unreflected kludge of bibliographic patches does not measure up to appropriate standard. The diction is rife with patriotic undertones, which applies also to the peripheral talk and communication between the "editors". Not particularly an example for objectivity. The style is rudimentary and requires revision.
Do some fervently patriotic, youthful spirits really believe they can rewrite history amongst themselves? Who are John and Tabib? It is poor judgment to presume the question posed can be settled among two kids and some Pantherarosa or Deli-Eshek (Nomen est Omen?) characters, by bickering and cackling over them. Picking up bits and pieces here and copying "generalist" encyclopedias (without claim to in-depth information) there and throwing around shallow argumentation on basis of that, cannot be regarded as presentation of valid analytical results. This is nursery school level! So far no proof has been established to the contrary of the perception that the Safavid ancestors, prior to Sultan Jonayd, were Persian. Any Safavid family tree starts off with Firouz(-shah) Zarrinkolah (nisbed "Al- Kordi Al-Sangani), this in itself does not lend any credibility at all to "Turkification" attempts! As the origin of the family has been at dispute, any Engelbert Kaempfer, Adam Olearius or brethren Sherly recitations are out of context, having been uttered some 500 years LATER!!!
Hello all,
What exactly is being fought about at this point? The question of what ethnicity Safi al-Din was appears to be a) largely unanswerable; and b) largely irrelevant. Some indication of the dispute should be at Safi al-Din. Here it isn't particularly necessary, since this article should be largely about Ismail and after, when the Safavids were actually significant.
That said, the article itself isn't particularly good. Instead of arguing about what language some 14th century mystic spoke, why doesn't everybody try to work on improving the article? john k 16:32, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You see, Pantherarosa, this is where we differ - in my view, any issues relating to Firoozshah Zerrinkulah are, in fact, insignificant. The history of the Safavids before Ismail is of only rather minor significance, itself. The article is bad because there isn't very much on the history of the dynasty when it was actually ruling Persia. Your version, which includes lots more irrelevant details about the ethnic background of Safi al-Din, doesn't make that any better. I will admit to you that I have no idea what the ethnic background of Safi al-Din is. This page has convinced me that there is a lot of dispute about this. This dispute seems significant enough to me that it should be discussed in an NPOV fashion in the Safi al-Din page. However, despite his status as the eponym of the dynasty, Safi al-Din himself should not be especially prominent in this article, and an arcane nationalist dispute about his ethnic background should certainly not play a role in this article, which should focus on explaining why the Safavids were important, which has little to do with whether Safi al-Din was a Turkoman or a Kurd (or an Arab!) john k 20:34, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
How much longer is this dispute going to fester? Somebody should restore to sensible version--Deli-Eshek 20:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What are you even talking about? john k 22:23, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Oh yes, grotesque indeed. Sorry about that - I looked very superficially. john k 02:01, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
i don't claim to know anything about the safavids or otherwise... but someone just screwed up the page. some...person... edited the page so that practically every informational word was replaced with somehting about DANCE!!! >.< i'm trying to use this page for a HISTORY REPORT for the past 2 days... so this is recent... could someone PLEASE FIX THIS IMMEADIATLY?!?!
and stop screwing around with the page and just leave whatever is definitely factual in and take everything else OUT!
A real pity that this fascinating topic is buried under such a mess and on top of that presented in such poor style. As a reader seeking info on the subject, I am appalled by what I am offered here! --StuffedTurkey 20:30, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This seems like a great list for contacting academics who study the Safavids. Maybe the concerned parties should ask these professors for their opinions, as their understanding of the issues seem to be at a more sophisticated level.--Confuzion 17:53, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC) [7]
With respect to the patchwork by User Tabib, in which he apparently hurriedly and crudely pasted together copied oline texts, sometimes badly out of context, this topic would deserve a far better rendering! However, vandalism (as constituted, e. g.,by User 84.154.62.233's sarcastic "correction") or reverts to prior versions, do not pose a solution either.--StuffedTurkey 10:21, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This has been protected against vandalism for ages. I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So what do we need to do to take the "disputed" tag off this page?
Seems like the dispute was all about whether the 'orginal' Safavids were 'Turkic' or 'Persian'.
Geneologically/genetically...
Starting in the 8th century there were a number of Turkic migrations from central Asia to southwestern Asia. Iranian Azerbaijian, the area south of the Aran river, had been at the crossroads of a number of these migrations and invasions. By 1500 semi-nomads were living in the plains around Ardebil and moving their livestock into the highlands for parts of the year. The Safiveyeh in Ardebil were more settled but also cosmopolitan city-dwellers. Thus they were probably intermixed with Mongols and Persians and Kurds and Armenians and Assyrians. It's really not a big deal: at least 50% of today's Europeans/Asians are probably descendants of Ghengis Khan (20,000 children, 35 generations you do the math).
Culturally...
The Safiveyeh started out as non-Shi'a Sufis. At some point in the 14th century they switched over to Shi'ism. The rest of Persia in 1500 was non-Shi'a (the main Shi'a population at the time were the Arabs of southern Mesopotamia). Despite that they were in the same cultural sphere as the Persians - Persian culture was the oldest, most revered culture in the area.
Linguistically....
Likewise, Persian was the lingua franca across the eastern Islamic world from the Tigris to the Indus, from Daghestan and Samarkand to Bahrain. Ismail's mother tongue was Turkic, sure. But anyone as intelligent and politically acute as him was fluent in Persian too (and maybe a few more languages).
In either case, if the origins of the Safavids continue to be disputed we should just make a "Origins of Safavids" page, move some of the geneological material off to there and let that page be disputed and leave this Safavid page free from disputation.
(I'll check back in a month or so to see what people's thoughts are.)
-slava May 3, 2005
As hearsay peddling and self-congratulatory POV pushing seems to prevail, in the face of easily comprehendible facts to the contrary, the public needs to be duly warned! SAFI EDDIN was Arian just like his Master Zahed Gilani, both staunch SUNNIS, too. Both with clearly established KURDISH roots (on top of that), a fact continuously negated by zealous amateurs, pushing piteous ethnic agendas. Turks of any breeding simply were not there yet, when Arian civilization had already thrived for some 15 centuries , prior to Seljuq invasion of the realms of the ancient PERSIAN EMPIRE. --Pantherarosa 19:58, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Editors: User:Fadix apparently provokes me to a conflict with him by his edit [8] disregarding the whole discussions we had above and by advancing groundless POV accusation directed against me. I want to warn him that such groundless accusations can be construed as a personal attack, or at least violation of the Wikipedia principles of Civility and Wikiquette, to which Fadix has already been asked to obey by me and by many other editors.
Fadix has tried in the past to discredit me, by advancing similar groundless accusations and slanders too. I am categorically against turning this talkpage to a personal discussion forum, similar to Talk:Armenian Genocide, where Fadix has been particularly zealous in his "contributions". I believe that we should keep personal discussions to userpages. However, I cannot close my eyes to such disruptive actions and accusations and therefore, I find it necessary to inform you about my past (unpleasant) history of relationships with User:Fadix.
Fadix’s first attack on me started in Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh yet in March [9]. He started to support User:Rovoam, currently, a well-known vandal who’s been punished by ArbCom for his disruptive actions and personal attacks on me. (see, ArbCom case Baku Ibne et al.: Final decision). Then I have sufficiently responded to his claims and exposed his real intentions in my posts here, and especially here and here. Later, I also occasionally noticed that he has been advancing slanders against me in Talk:Armenian Genocide in my absence [10]. So now, he obviously, decided that he can intrude into other pages that I contributed to, including Safavids, and Urartu, where my contributions have been rather NPOV and I even got a thank you message from User:Isomorphic for my edits [11] (see, diff of my edits (labeled “POV” by Fadix here [12]; and here’s Fadix real POV edit removing reference to Turkey [13]).
Whatever Fadix’s intentions, I call him to avoid such actions which may cause tension and even renewed edit and revert war. Also, before making substantial changes to the Safavids entry, let alone, with such unscientific allegation as to Safavids “Kurdish origin”, one should read through the evidences I and other editors have brought which prove that Safavids were Turkic speaking indeed and this is an indisputable historical fact.
I very much hope that Fadix will stop such actions in Safavids and Urartu, will not spread these actions to other pages and will avoid the mistakes that User:Rovoam has made in the past. --Tabib 13:24, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
THE ABOVE OPINION IS A VERY VALUABLE CONTRIBUTION! WIKIPEDIA HAS TAKEN GREAT DAMAGE FROM POV PUSHERS AND PSEUDO-ADMINISTRATORS HELPING SUCH POV TO PREVAIL.--Tab-ib-ne 10:04, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Rovoam has gone beyond the pale and is reverting simply to make some kind of point [15]. Because he is virtually unblockable and rather obsessive, I have protected this article and quite a few others. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:12, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be good if those who are currently working on this article would add a couple of subsections/headers to the 'Rise of the Safavid state' in order to enhance readability. SouthernComfort 01:50, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk changed the language from Turkic to Altaic. This seems to be a misapprehension. Turkic is not the same thing as Turkish. Turkic is a family of languages. Per a UCLA website:
Azerbaijani is a member of the Turkic branch of the Altaic language family. Specifically, it belongs to the Oghuz Seljuk sub-group (Akiner 1986), along with (Osmanli) Turkish and some dialects of Crimean Tatar (Campbell 1991). Other well known members of the Turkic branch include: Uzbek, Kipchak, Kyrgyz, Tatar, and Kazakh. The Turkic languages closely resemble each other and form a complex of mutually intelligible dialects. The other two branches generally presumed to make up the Altaic family are Mongolian and the Manchu Tungus languages. [16]
Let's let the linguists rule on this one. Zora 6 July 2005 11:57 (UTC)
I see youre following me around again looking for new edit wars to keep you busy :) Even your text says it is Altaic. And btw, I speak the language. Therefore I'm much more closer to the level of expertise on this matter than you are. But I wont insist on the Turkic vs Altaic thingy either. As long as we make clear that Turkic is not the same as Turkey, and that the languages (Azeri and Turkish) are different.--Zereshk 6 July 2005 14:09 (UTC)
Altaic is unnecessarily vague, and is not believed to actually exist by some linguists, according to our own article. Turkic is both more specific and completely correct. BTW, how different are Azeri and Turkish? If all of the Turkic languages can be mutually comprehensible, I would have to assume that Turkish and Azeri must be pretty similar ot each other. john k 6 July 2005 15:37 (UTC)
Azeri and Turkish are sufficiently different to be considered separate. We have 460 free satellite channels here in Tehran. A good bunch are Turkish. Native Azeris like my father have a very tough time understanding anyhting in Turkish. Turkish has both a different script and vocabulary. Azeri and Turkish may overlap alot, but they are different languages today.--Zereshk 6 July 2005 22:48 (UTC)
Hmm...interesting. As a native English-speaker, I always feel like I've missed out in not having any languages that are closely related and might be comprehensible with only a slight effort (or with no effort at all). Well, there's Scots, I guess, but real Lallans is almost dead, I think. john k 6 July 2005 23:51 (UTC)
Is the factual accuracy still debated? What do we need to do before that tag can be removed? – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 13:45, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
Hello. There is a lot of back-and-forth discussion, but I guess what I need is a list of the specific things that need to change in the article so that you no longer consider it "inaccurate". Thanks, – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 17:27, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Any answers? Isen't it important, the ethnicity of the founder? And this even in its own entry? Name conventions in history are there for something, Azerbaijan is a deviation of the Arabic term(Conversion to Arabic prunciation, the Persian term). History convention requires that we name a region, with the name it was called in the period we are covering it. What is called Azerbaijan in the text, is the province of Aturpatakan(in Persian). In Armenian writtings, Atrapatakan, originating from the Persian , which in its turn was a deviation of the term Atropatena. I don't know of any historical writings of the period, which the term Azerbaijan was ever used to refer to the region, and since it was an "Iranian" dinasty, I would think that the name convention would require, that we name the region the way it was called, which is the province of Aturpatakan. A Persian here would be of much help, as to the exact pronunciation. Besides, this Aturpatakan, which became Azerbaijan, because of the Arabic pronconiation, has nothing to do with the North of Arax river. For this reason, the text is entirly misleading and a product here again, of Tabibs POV pushing, as to suggest, that Azerbaijan was an entity before 1918. And I also find it funny, that when the Turkish origin is deleted by some Iranian nationalists, people are quick to revert it, but I guess it is OK that the founder of the dinasties ethnicity, even in its own entry is entrly hidden, and this, thanks to Tabibs actions. And then, one wonder why there seem to be problems in those entries with Persian nationalists reverting them backs. Either we use name conventions or not, and I thought, Wikipedia was using them. Fadix 18:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
The origin of the Safavis is mentioned in the Safavat as-Safa, a collected chronology of the Safavi origins, and it is clearly stated that the very first Safavids were Kurdish-speaking, having their origins in Khorasan (today's Afghanistan and Central-Asia). Only because they spoke Turkish, it does not mean that they were Turks. Ahmad Shah Durrani, the founder of modern Afghanistan, was a Pashtun by ethnicity, but he wrote countless poems in Persian. The Moghuls of India were Chagatai-Mongols by ethnicity, but they were Persian-speakers and great supporters of Persian literature. The last king of Afghanistan, Muhammad Zahir Shah, was a Pashtun by ethnicity and Persian by language - he does not know a word Pashto! Does that make the Pashtun kings of Afghanistan Persians? Ismail Safawi might have written letters and poems in Turkish, but that does not make him a Turk. The Safavids were living in Azerbaijan, a region inhabited by Turkic people. They had direct contact to Ottomans and other Turkic peoples in the region. Of course they were influenced by Turks and Turkish. But since their IRANIAN origin is well documented in their OWN chronologies, I see NO reason for proclaiming them "Turks" or "Azeris". May I remind everyone in here that the Seljuks were Persian-speaking?! They even invited Persian poets and schollars to their kingdom, like Rumi or Attar. Would anyone in here proclaim that the Seljuks were actually "Persians"? Of course not, because the origins of the Seljuks were well-known. The same goes to the Ghaznavis - Persian by language, but Turkic by heritage. In case of the Safavis, it's the opposite: Turkic by language (although we do not know for sure, since Persian was their official language) and Iranian by origin! Case closed! -Tajik 23:12, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
john says: Can we give this nonsense up? As to the Seljuks being Persian-speaking, I have never heard that anywhere before - Persian was a court language perhaps, but the early Seljuks certainly spoke Turkish among themselves.
john says: Which is, BTW, exactly the same situation as the Safavids. Every historical source I have ever seen on the Safavids says that they were of Turkish origins.
john says: Whether or not their patrilineal ancestor was in some distant past a Kurd seems ultimately unprovable, given the obscurity of Safavid origins, but by the time they actually enter history, they were fully Turkicized, and their center of power, Tabriz, was a Turkish city (it had been the center of the Ilkhanate, for God's sake).
john says: I'm sick of all this nationalist garbage on wikipedia.
john says: Find a reputable non-Iranian source which says that the Safavid legend of Kurdish origin is definitively true, and then maybe it can go into the article.
I also add these books to it:
john says: BTW, how can they be both Kurdish and from Khorasan?
john says: Khorasan was never a Kurdish area, so far as I am aware. john k 00:53, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
-Tajik 09:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
To make things clear for John and Tajik: There are over one million kurds living in north east iran (Khorasan) as you see in the map. However, They are not indigenous people of Khorasan, rather they are descendants of the exiled kurdish tribes who were deported by Shah Abbas from Kurdistan to Khorasan, after the Battle of Dimdim, in early 17th century. See [[17]] Heja Helweda 22:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The best source on the Safavids is Iran Under the Safavids by Roger Savory. In it the author shows that the Safavids were of Iranic and non-Turkic extraction. A good proof this is also the Taati poems left by Shaykh Safi-ad-din Ardabili according to two sources. Also we must remeber that the Shaykh was of a Sunnite Shafi'ite extraction whereas virtually all Turks are of Hanafite extraction.