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Well, you can't really call this an article, can you? Lucha-Method (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I have changed his name from Sergi to the correct Sergio. Catalan fundamentalists please do not change back - if he was Sergi why would he choose to have SERGIO B. on his shirt. Carlito777 (talk) 12:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
In English we do not say Spanish League or Spanish Cup or even Spanish Super Cup. But we call them La Liga, Copa del Rey, and Supercopa de Espana. Also when watching a football game from Spain in the English language commentators, on Sky Sports, ESPN, BBC, ITV, FSC, Gol TV, etc..., refer to these competitions by their correct names. Therefore I ask you keep my revision of the honours section. Rupert1904 (talk) 16:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
This is due to
1: his shirt name being SERGIO B. [2] 2: FC Barcelona's website NOW stating his name as 'Sergio Busquets Burgos' where previously, and incorrectly it was Sergi [3]
we do not need anymore proof that this is the way his name should be. please do not change this, as there is no logical reasoning for it, 99% of people will refer to him as Sergio upon seeing his shirt name and official site name.
XTomScottx (talk) 17:17, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I think some man utd or madrid fan changed the page.
Sergio is pronounced as in Spanish, [ˈserxjo]. In Catalan it'd be Sergi [ˈsɛrʑi]. People in Catalonia as in the Balearic Islands and the Land of Valencia may also have their names in Spanish. So following that a person from Catalonia whose name's Jaime is pronounced [ˈʑajmə]? I don't think so! Catalans can have Spanish names as loan names, so the real pronunciation should be [ˈserxjo β̞usˈkɛts]. Many thanks! Jaume87 (talk) 20:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
i see that an IP has objected to this section repeatedly. I would like to know policy based reasons they want it removed. It passes WP:N, (right now, it's pretty much the biggest thing he's done in his career), it is sourced (WP:RS), and is not unduly negative to the subject. (WP:BLP). The only reason it seems like they'd want it removed is because it's embarrassing to Sergio B, and in which case I would have advised him not to exaggerate the push in the first place. SirFozzie (talk) 20:49, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
First of all, WP:N guidelines are only used to determine whether a topic can have its own separate article on Wikipedia and do not govern article content. And further, it is ridiculous to claim that one minor incident is “pretty much the biggest thing he's done” in the career of a player who has started in and won both a UEFA CL final and FIFA WC final.
In regard to WP:RS, sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made, which is not the case here. There is a clear issue with neutrality (WP:NPOV). An article and its sub-articles should clearly describe, represent, and characterize all the disputes within a topic, but should not endorse any particular point of view. The referee sent Motta off for violent conduct. That is the fact, and to claim Busquets “exaggerated a push which caused” Motta’s sending off is endorsing a biased point of view. There is nothing to support the claim that Busquets’ reaction caused the red card. Motta’s action, in and of itself, contravened the rules of the game regardless of Busquets’ reaction. And it is nothing but speculation to claim that Busquets was peeking “to see if his simulation was being believed”.
As for the ad hominem claim that someone would want this removed because it is “embarrassing to Sergio B”, I would answer that this is clearly not the case here. I can’t speak for others, but I’m not Spanish (or Catalan) and I’m certainly no fan of FC Barcelona. I am however a fan of accuracy.
Jimmacol (talk) 06:09, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
It was an incident that ultimately has little relevance. Do we know include these details of suspected foul play in every WP article about certain footballers? Is there a list of dives and cheats performed by the likes of Ronaldo, Nani, Steven Gerrard and Didier Drogba on their profiles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.157.114 (talk) 22:50, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
This wasn't even a dive though. He was hit in the face and went down. I really cannot for the life of me understand why this incident needs to be mentioned when hundreds of other football players get involved in similar matters and no remark is made on there profile. And if a player whose career achievements cast a massive light over the irrelevant incident, does need thisto be mentioned then it needs revising in the interest of neutrality. It also needs to be addressed that it wasn't a dive as actual contact was made by Motta's arm and Busquets face.
It would seem that there is an agenda by some to smear and discredit this person, possibly due to jealously and bitterness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.157.114 (talk) 00:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Exactly how relevant is this incident in the context of his career? His achievement by far and large overwhelm this incident. I presume you're a bitter Man Utd fan as they do seem to have an incredible problem with Barcelona and their players after the humiliation they suffered at their hands in the 2009 CL final.
Your edit and slant of this incident is a discredit to WP, and your attempts at suggesting it was a clear dive are not in the interest of neutrality.
There was definite contact, Busquets appeared to feign injury. There was no dive so the suggestion should not be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.157.114 (talk) 21:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
It's clear now that their is an element of bitterness and bias regarding Caddocktm's contribution and views on this incident. It was, on the whole, an irrelevance in the context of his whole career, and we're talking about a multiple league, a World Cup and Champion's League winner here, yet this incident, which received moderate exposure needs to be mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.157.114 (talk) 01:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
It's becoming more and more evident that Craddocktm is incapable of allowing this article to remain unbiased and neutral, instead he seems to be pushing for it to remain incorrect and negative.
Deleting sources is unacceptable and resorting to lies is not what WP is about.
Motta made contact with Busquest's face, not neck. The video replays clearly how this and the media articles note it too. There was no "writhing" either, which I presume is merely your exaggeration of the events. Is this inaccuracy really relevant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.157.114 (talk) 20:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Firstly, try reading Jimmacol's point above, and understand that WP is about facts, not opinions. Your subjective and deliberately biased additions to this article are frankly, disgraceful and the repeated suggestions from you that this insignificant event (in the context of his career) has any place in this article is embarrassing and speaks volumes about your intentions. However, if it is necessary that it remains, then it needs to carefully worded without language that appears the author has any bias and that the facts are clearly made out.
Secondly, the video replays clearly show contact was made to Busquets face, further backed up by the media reports of the match, not the opinion pieces you've provided.
And finally, unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that Busquets wasn't injured and did deliberately intend to have Motta sent off then it should not be speculated at as you continue to do so.
The facts are this: Motta raised his arm, made contact with Busquets face, Busquets went to the ground clutching his face as if injured. Speculating at the motives of either player reagrding this incident is not in the interest of neutrality.81.104.157.114 (talk) 05:11, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
No one is making personal attacks, accept for you, your continued accusations of such are merely attempts to divert attention away from your subjective and factually incorrect additions to this article.
I will not be making any apology as there is nothing to apologise for. Your contribution to this article is a matter of concern and needs to be addressed.
I cannot make you see things you do not wish to, but you're arguing with video evidence and as a result is obvious that your deliberately trying to make this article about opinions rather than facts. It's a shame as WP is not about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.157.114 (talk) 17:11, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
First of all, I'm just a typical American with no interest in "football" or "soccer" as we call it, so I think my opinion is pretty fair in that regard. I would say the incident is not worth noting at all, in the context of this article as it currently exists. The main reason being that despite Motta being ejected, Internazionale won the semi-final. In fact, they won the final. In other words, there were no real consequences of the incident except two guys, two teams, and/or two teams' fans trading comments after the fact. The inclusion of that information appears to only be related to Busquets' character, as there is no other relevance for the incident that I can see. Further, since there is no section on his character in the article, this bit of information doesn't seem to fit anywhere here. I would recommend removing it and just replacing it with something that states he was on the team that made it to the 2009–10 UEFA Champions League Semi-Final, and that's only to add something to that section's last paragraph.—Bark (talk) 15:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC) |
Bark, you post a lot of sense, just as Jimmacol did before. However, Craddocktm is adamant that this irrelevant incident remains and any attempt to remove it is met with his threats. 81.104.157.114 (talk) 16:49, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Hi Bark. I note your arguments and appreciate your help in giving a third opinion. However, I do have a few points to raise:
Unfortunately, SirFozzie, like Craddocktm, is now resorting to lies.
Quite why some people believe a player whose career has involved winning the World Cup, Champion's League and multiple league titles feels this incident has as much significance as those events is doing nothing but to confirm their bias and intentions.
Three people have now questioned the relevance of this addition, against the two of SirFozzie and Croddocktm who for some bizarre reason feel it should remain and insist on dramatising the incident s much as possible.81.104.157.114 (talk) 06:13, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that's a sensible solution, Bark. Thanks for you input. 81.104.157.114 (talk) 19:43, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Now, be reasonable. It is a fact that Busquets was criticized for feigning injury. This is a piece of fact, as evidenced by the Times, the Telegraph and the Independent which include criticisms of him. It is disingenuous to ask for sources when already a number of them are provided. The existence of such criticisms are facts, not opinions. However, to assert he feigned injury (without using the words criticized by blah blah blah) would be an opinion. Do you grasp this distinction? Also, Wikipedia has adopted policies that approve of opinions published by reliable sources: see WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV and WP:OPINION. It is standard practice on Wikipedia is say someone was criticized for blah blah blah in the absence of endorsement of the criticism. It is perfectly ok to say Busquets was criticized for feigning injury because the criticism may be sound or unsound: see WP:ENEMY. You are free to include defence of Busquets' action, provided the defence is published by a reliable source and no undue coverage is given. By the way, you should discuss things on here, rather than repeatedly making edits without answering my objections or without giving any justifications. Again, you have failed to explain why you do not like the word writhe, which is the word used by the Telegraph: [7]. You have also failed to answer my question as to why you insist including reference to the area of contact.Craddocktm (talk) 05:35, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Let's stick with the facts rather than opinions and attempts to waiver fairness and balance. 81.104.157.114 (talk) 05:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
That's not an answer to my questions. The existence of criticisms is a fact. Fairness and balance is achieved by adhering to the rules on Wikipedia, not to your own rules.Craddocktm (talk) 06:29, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
If you do not engage in constructive discussion here, but continue to hide behind meaningless labels like fairness and balance without giving any reasons, I will revert your edit.Craddocktm (talk) 07:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
You've made it clear you're not interested in debate though, Craddocktm. Three people here have raised questions about the necessity and validity of this addition as well as the content of it. You have ignored their comments and instead firmly set your sights on promoting your heavily biased and factually incorrect piece.
I personally do not see why it needs to be mentioned at all, it's a mere insignificance in the context of his whole career, something again, you ignore, yet feel it has place in this article. Do you feel it right additions are made to Cristiano Ronaldo's, Steven Gerrard's and Wayne Rooney's WP articles regarding their cynicism, what about Patrice Evra when he did the same as Busquets against Bayern Munich last season?
This existence, and particularly the wording, of this addition strikes me as being included for reasons other than the need to present a fair and balanced article. I suggest you being a Man Utd fan are incredibly bitter and jealous of Barca and their players, so look to slur them wherever the opportunity presents itself.
Bark suggested conflict resolution, which I agree with, yet you seem not to have mentioned or even acknowledged. Perhaps that is a wise course of action as you're never going to be happy with this article remaining neutral and unbiased. 81.104.157.114 (talk) 10:23, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
I have made it clear I am trying to reach consensus here, something you have disappointingly refused to acknowledge. Three people have raised questions, and by my submissions above I have responded and refuted most of them. It is you, however, that have refused to respond to any of my comments. I did exchange words with Bark and Jimmacol, responding exactly to each of their points. Are you trying to be selectively blind?
The point is that Bark's comments are restricted to the question of whether the incident should be mentioned, and do not go to how the incident should be written.
Do not hide from the thrust of my submissions here. You have again refused to respond to my points. I have no choice but to revert your edit coz you have again refused to respond to my questions or give justifications for your edits.
Where did you get the idea that I am a Man Utd fan? Did you imagine it? I suggest you retract it coz I do not support Man Utd. However, by your wording alone it is clear you support Barca and your very words smell of POV pushing for me.
Your wording of the edit suggests to me that you are not interested in making this article neutral and balanced. You have consistently tried to present the incident in favour of Sergio Busquets, and any attempt to make it neutral as been branded by you as "biased".
Disciplinary matters and playacting have been mentioned in the articles of a number of footballers. For example, Paul Scholes is criticized for his disciplinary record. Another would be Sergio Ramos, who is said to be the most sent off player for Real Madrid. As for specific fouls, Maradona's hand of god is mentioned in his article. Drogba is similarly criticized for specific dives in his article. It is important to realize that Busquets is not getting some special treatment. I would agree that, if there is a significant number of reliable sources that devote significant coverage on Ronaldo's or Gerrard's or Rooney's gamesmanship, I would say yes to their inclusion.
I am actively considering dispute resolution. It is just that I am not yet sure which mechanism is the best for the current dispute.Craddocktm (talk) 11:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
You've purposefully ignored the succinct comments by Jimmacol, Bark and myself, instead, have concentrated on pushing through your biased agenda.
You're only interested in smearing a person because of your intense jealously and bitterness. Perhaps you should try a football forum to express your concerns rather than vandalising WP.
I object to this addition, especially the amateurish way it is written and tacked onto the end. I ruins the flow of the article and simply looks like an attempt to smear Busquets rather than provide an informative piece. However, if it stays then it is important it remains as neutral and unbiased as possible; detailing verifiable facts and allowing the reading to make their own conclusion from the sources provided.
Deliberately omitting important information and using provocative language, as you have done, simply negates the purpose of WP. 81.104.157.114 (talk) 12:13, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Again, you are not responding to anything specific. How did I ignore the comments? I respond to every one of them. Disagreeing is not the same as ignoring. It's a very simple distinction that I should not be required to educate you of.
How is my edit amateurish? You did not say. The only difference between your edit and mine is (1) the difference between the area of contact; (2) the word "apparently", which is needless; and (3) writhe. I don't see how my edit is biased or amateurish or ruins the flow of the article. Which word of my edit contains provocative language? Again you cannot say. How did I omit important information? How is the area of contact important? Your accusations are groundless and you are a person who simply cannot be reasoned with.Craddocktm (talk) 15:59, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm responding to your points on the whole, but because they're not the answers you want, you ignore them, just as you did with Jimmacol and Bark.
How about you inform me of you objection to the balanced and neutral addition I've made. I've explained that yours in biased and provocative and have amended it as so it is now fair.
I could delete the needless addition altogether and argue from the viewpoint that it is wholly unnecessary, but given your agenda I feel that would be simply too much for you to cope with. 81.104.157.114 (talk) 10:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Your so-call "responding on the whole" is not a response at all, because my queries are specific. They are not even answers to my questions; then so course I do not want comments which do not address live issues. You are misrepresenting my editting behaviour here, which I see as an appalling behaviour:
The fact is, you have never explained how my edit is biased and provocative. The only reason you have given for saying my edit is biased is that you think it is biased. Nothing else is offered. The only issue on which you have given some reasons is your view that the incident is irelevant. But then we have proceeded on the matter assuming it's relevant. Since then you have given no reasons to justify your writing up of the incident. If you feel your actions are justifiable, there should be no difficulty to answer my questions specifically. Isn't your failure to answer my questions specifically a very good indicator that you cannot justify your edit? Craddocktm (talk) 07:48, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
I can't decide if it is hilarious or sad that you continually ignore my answer to your points whilst simultaneously forcing your views down other people's throats and deliberately ignoring the valid points others have made regarding this issue.
You fail to explain your issue with the contribution I have made instead simply think you have the authority to undermine me as if your opinion has more validity.
Try practising what you preach as you're coming across as a bit of a hypocrite. 81.104.157.114 (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Very disappointingly, you have continued to distort facts and dodge issues which you clearly cannot answer. I refuse to respond to you any more unless you start to discuss here in good faith.Craddocktm (talk) 16:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
You fail to explain your issue with the contribution I have made instead simply think you have the authority to undermine me as if your opinion has more validity.
Try practising what you preach as you're coming across as a bit of a hypocrite81.104.157.114 (talk) 01:05, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
And i am the first (well, maybe the tenth...) to say i think Busquets clearly feigned the injury - there WAS contact - but it happens in sport (lots of teams/players) and he should not be crucified for that. Motta is not a nun himself...All in all, i think the current version is quite accurate, does not take sides at all (the Brazilian did criticize the Spaniard and urged UEFA to take action). Busquets is quite probably THE BEST defensive midfielder in the world right now, that incident does not shadow his career at all ("The Hand" did not do that for Diego Maradona, the drugs did more in my opinion).
Attentively, to all the parts involved - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 02:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
How about you explain your objection SirFozzie? Craddock is reluctant to do so, so maybe you have the courage to, instead of deliberately trying to exaggerate and smear?
It's not that difficult is it?81.104.157.114 (talk) 00:11, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
A) Notable. (it doesn't have to take over the article, but it needs to be covered) B) Covered in a neutral fashion (if anything it bends backwards too much..) C) Reliably Sourced (The three papers I noted and the stories are reliable sources).
Let's put it this way.. VascoAmaral above has a good comparison. Diego Maradona's Hand of God goal. I'm not claiming that a Champions League game (even a knockout stage game) compares to a World Cup game, but it is a big part of what people think of, when they think of Maradona. It is covered both under the Hand of God entry (which redirects to the match report), but also in Maradona's article, where it is part of the article. And as for the so-called exaggeration of you repeating yourself:
Try practising what you preach as you're coming across as a bit of a hypocrite. 81.104.157.114 (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
and
Try practising what you preach as you're coming across as a bit of a hypocrite81.104.157.114 (talk) 01:05, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
SirFozzie (talk) 02:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm talking about your deliberate exaggeration and attempt to smear Busquests, *NOT* me. Please make an effort to understand what I post in future. Thanks.
You, like Craddock, are incapable of explaining your objection to what I see as a fair removal of inflammatory and provocative language that is not in keeping with the neutrality. We've already established that Craddock is letting his bitterness as a Man Utd fan cloud his judgement here. What's your excuse? 81.104.157.114 (talk) 08:27, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
TO THE IP USER: READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN IN THE LINKS PROVIDED. ALL MY REASONS ARE IN THERE. IF YOU REFUSE TO READ MY REASONS, THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM.
AND Which part of the language is inflammatory and provocative? I think the only person who is being smeared is me. Craddocktm (talk) 11:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
So it seems to me that a third party came in to settle the dispute, he said to take it out, and people more or less ignored it and kept it in. I think it should go but I'm not going to take it out right away, I'd like to hear the reasoning for ignoring the third party who was supposed to solve the dispute.
I think all of your examples are flawed. Spygate has happened all of one time in the history of the sport. The Hand of God goal (a goal being scored with the hand) has happened how many times in a World Cup? None other times that I can think of. Maybe a few more times. But a perceived dive or exaggeration of a foul in a football game? My god, it happens probably once per game. 69.244.70.13 (talk) 22:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
References
Is in Guardiola's starting XI because he can take a fall.
Is it a conspiracy when the entire football world acknowledges that this man has a particular tendency to roll on the ground in agony in reaction to the slightest challenges? I don't think so.
Commenting on this phenomenon on the man's own wikipedia page is surely not biased, or an attack on his character- it's something that's been noted by those who call the game, those who play the game, those who watch the game. Realize that this post is NOT criticism- falling has a tactical advantage, and when Busquets does it, he helps his team. Falling is a tactic. A tactic Sergio Busquets excels at. Noting that in an objective way on his wikipedia page is not a personal attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.134.156 (talk) 19:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Whatever your team bias, it seems strange that last season's accusations of racist abuse are not included in this article. Busquets was eventually cleared by UEFA, but it was a hugely noteworthy event. Medusalith Boltagon (talk) 05:23, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
It surprises me that there is no reference to one important fact in his life: he's Carlos Busquets' son, a former FC Barcelona goalkeeper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.131.136 (talk) 08:36, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I've just added this piece of information, instead of the "obscure player" part, which was rather a gratuitous statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.131.136 (talk) 08:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I am aware that this has received extensive discussion above. The section In the Champions League semi-final against Inter Milan at Camp Nou on 28 April 2010, he went down to the ground after Thiago Motta had raised his arm and supposedly pushed Busquets in the face. As a result of this action, Motta was shown a second yellow card and sent off, and Busquets was subsequently criticised by the media for apparently feigning injury"" continues to be removed as "biased" "unfair" a "one-off incident." etc. The section is notable enough for inclusion in my opinion, is well sourced and represents what the sources say. Flat Out let's discuss it 23:34, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Would appear you are biased and only advocate this inclusion as it offers nothing to the article on this individual, but suits your own personal agenda.Panhead2014 (talk) 00:03, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Still no explanation from Flat Out as to why this comment should remain and what its inclusion offers to the article. Panhead2014 (talk) 11:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
That was a major and widely remembered incident in Busquets' career, removing it would be an unbalanced description of the footballer. The sentence is plainly written and supported by sources, it's not blaming nor assolving Busquets. It's simple like that. I guess only FC Barcelona fans would disagree. P.S: I want to point out that I'm not Flat Out, I'm the IP that reverted similar deletions a couple of times in the past. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.246.0.76 (talk) 12:08, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I have happily discussed this issue on the talk pages as evident by my contributions, so I am at a loss as to why Flat Out feels the need to blatantly lie. Furthermore, Flat Out himself has still not offered any valid reason or explanation as what this comment adds to the article. He, and Chris troutman have attempted to have me blocked from contributing to this article and have made attempts to deliberately mislead the admin with smears and lies as evident here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Panhead2014 reported by User:Chris troutman (Result: ) Panhead2014 (talk) 13:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello? I just told you it was a major incident. Football fans around Europe (maybe the world) remember the scene. It's not like one needs to offer you an explanation to convince you that the paragraph should stay, you're not the owner of this page. Till now, you have been accusing others to have some hidden agenda to smear Sergio Busquets, as if merely mentioning this incident, even shortly, was some horrible slander. You even seem to imply that I'm Flat Out posing as someone else. Ask some admin to check, you'll find out that I'm really another person. Seeing as there's not been a real discussion but just groundless accusations, I think the paragraph should simply be re-inserted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.59.121.81 (talk) 11:44, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The necessity in claiming that there was supposedly contact is what exactly? If the argument that this incident, in the scheme of his illustrious career, is important to the article, then dressing it up in ambiguous and, frankly incorrect language needs to be addressed. And as Motta did make contact with Busquets, then why the need for the "supposedly" inclusion, which only succeeds in painting a picture designed to further discredit Busquets over this matter. I refer to this brief video www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkvCr3ys_So as proof contact did happen and therefore removing the word from the article is important in maintaining the neutrality of it. Panhead2014 (talk) 01:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I suggest you watch this video [17] where the scene is more detailed. Motta raised his arm and touched Busquets' face, but there was no clear push (and the sentence says "supposedly pushed Busquets in the face", not "supposedly made contact"). That could have been a light push or no push at all, we don't know, so we write "supposedly". And please stop it with the discredit thing, this is getting ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.49.159.166 (talk) 11:29, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
What is clear is that Motta made contact with Busquets' face, as is evident in both your video and mine. The inclusion of this ambiguous language is simply to add to the agenda of smearing the man rather than to offer a neutral and unbiased observation of the incident. Likewise, why no mention of if Motta intended to deliberately hurt Busquets' by raising his hand to his face? I cannot understand why such an irrelevant event is included in this article, but the consensus argues it should stay. It should therefore be appropriately rephrased in the interest of WP's guidelines on neutrality. Panhead2014 (talk) 19:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Actually it's your revision that is both badly written and not neutral. First, saying that contact was made means nothing, because in football there's a lot of contact between players, it could be normal contact or a foul and it's not clear if it's written like that. Second, the whole point of the controversy, and the reason that the incident it's notable enough to be reported here, is that the vast majority of the media talked about this incident as a simulation by Busquets, and, as you can see by reading the sources, they didn't simply write that "contact was made", but that, even if there was contact, that most probably wasn't a foul. So the previous version was balanced enough.
And give it a rest with your conspiracy theories, there is clear consensus about reporting the incident, as this discussion shows. You are the only one against it, but instead of accepting the outcome and getting over it you keep accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of having an agenda, you seem hellbent on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.49.159.166 (talk) 22:11, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
If we are to understand the reason for the criticism he received for the antics he displayed then we must be clear in addressing the facts that led to them. Adding "supposedly pushed in the face" is ambiguous and presents the reader with an incorrect picture of the matter. Are you disputing there was contact despite the video evidence clearly showing there was, because if you are not then I struggle to see why you insist on removing it. And I did revise it so it was clear that contact was made to Busquets' face, something you have conveniently chosen to ignore. Panhead2014 (talk) 22:25, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
And to add, another thing you have conveniently ignored, is that I can see the consensus that argues for the inclusion of mentioning this incident, as I have now declared twice. What I feel is inappropriate though, is your insistence on bias. As Motta was disciplined for his actions and there was clear contact, we cannot therefore present the case insinuating Busquets was insincere and not genuine, nor can we assume that Motta did not have any intentions in committing the foul by raising his hand to Busquets' face. I propose that making it clear in the article that there was contact between Motta's hand and Busquets' face is appropriate as this action, by the letter of the law, is considered violent conduct and is justified by being disciplined by the referee. Panhead2014 (talk) 22:43, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Nope, "supposedly pushed in the face" is not ambiguous. "Supposedly made contact" would have been a false statement, but contact and push are not equivalent. There was contact, but that doesn't mean that there was a push. On the other hand, writing "made contact with the face" is misleading, because it could mean a simple brush, a slap, a punch, a pinch, a scratch, a carress, it's not like every time a player touches another player's face the referee calls a foul. A push in the face is clearly a foul, however we don't know if there was a push, so we write supposedly. Hell, this whole incident is reported here because it had a massive coverage, and it had such coverage because almost everybody (and I mean media too) believed it was a blatant simulation, omitting the objections moved by the media would make it seem like the referee's decision was correct and there was no doubt about that, and that would be a case of undue weight. The only reasonable compromise I can think of would be rewriting the sentence with even more detail, stating that there was contact, but it was not clear if there was a foul/push, something like "made contact with Busquets and supposedly pushed him in the face". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.49.159.166 (talk) 00:32, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
It was never edited to "supposedly made contact" though, I have no idea why you persist on lying about that. The word "supposedly" was removed entirely. Nothing in the sources that have been added supports the use of such an ambiguous phrasing so I presume your desire to include it confirms my original suspicion.
Also, "made contact with the face" is not misleading at all, that is exactly what happened and by omitting it you are removing an important fact in the decision that was made to dismiss Motta. By your own admission Motta raised his hand and made contact with Busquets' face and by doing so was guilty of violent conduct, hence the sending off. This is fact, and should be included in the reporting just as it was in the media.
I would further point out to you, that not one of the articles linked to this incident actually express a personal view from the author/writer on the incident, but reiterate the condemnation expressed by Motta himself.
It also needs to be addressed that Motta actually received a red card for the offence, and not a second yellow. I have included this and cited it with a link to a BBC match report, which also supports the edit I have made regarding the inclusion that contact was made. Panhead2014 (talk) 03:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
It seems you don't understand that making contact doesn't necessarily mean that there is a foul. Yes, the referee decided this way, but what gave the incident all this clamor is that many believe he was wrong and misled by a simulation on Busquets' part. So we need to state explicitly why the referee decided like this and no, it's not simply because there was a contact, but because the ref believed it to have been violent contact (a push). Your revision makes it seem like the simple fact that Motta made contact with Busquets' face was a foul, that the referee made the correct decision and all the media blaming him were wrong, almost as if you wanted the reader to think "oh well, there was a contact, so then the ref was right, all the criticisms by the media are baseless".
As if this was not enough, you read the sources as you seem fit. The BBC does say that Motta made contact with Busquets'face, but adds that "the decision was contestable", and that the "straight red card was a harsh decision" which you conveniently omitted. The first Telegraph article writes in its first lines:
Motta was sent off after 28 minutes when, having already been booked, he raised his hand and appeared to push Busquets in the neck.
However, the Barca midfielder went down theatrically holding his face and writhed on the ground in apparent agony between glances at the referee.
Motta said: "He always does it, I have seen it on TV and he is holding his face and then looking at the referee - it is terrible behaviour."
Only the part in bold is Motta's words, the rest is the journalist's opinion, so it's neutral. The second Telegraph article does not report a single word from Motta. The only article that does mostly report Motta's opinion is the Independent one. However, if it's still not enough for you I can link some of the sources I found that I linked here. I did not add all of them before because I thought it was not necessary, but if you still insist in deforming the facts as you like I will.
In the end, I proposed a compromise but you kept on doing whatever you want like before: you are still accusing others of having an agenda (I could say the same about you seeing the way you act, but I don't want to turn this into a verbal fight any more than it already is), you are still doing your edit wars (even though this time you avoided doing 3 reverts in less than 24 hours, I guess you did learn something from your blocks). So I will rewrite the sentence the way I proposed before. It plainly states the facts like they happened:
I will correct the yellow card thing and leave the link to the BBC. And note, neither other editors nor I never even mentioned his infamous peekaboo, or his theatrical rolling. Yet you still cry it's unbalanced. --95.239.158.103 (talk) 14:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
First point. Raising hands to an opponents face and making contact is considered violent conduct. That is a fact and is what has occurred he that resulted in Motta's red card. It should be noted. We can't prove either way if Motta intended this or not. Nor can can we prove that Busquets wasn't hurt by the action. Your contribution only paints one side of the picture.
You are omitting facts that are important in this incident. Why? What gives you the right to decide they are not worthy of mention?
And accuse you and the other anonymous IP of having an agenda because your only contributions to WP are to this article and to painting a biased picture of the incident ignoring important facts regarding what happened and what has been reported. Panhead2014 (talk) 21:01, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I propose the following: "In the Champions League semi-final against Inter Milan at Camp Nou on 28 April 2010, he went down to the ground after Thiago Motta had raised his arm, and appeared to push Busquets' in the face. As a result of this action, Motta was shown a straight red card and dismissed for violent conduct. Busquets was subsequently criticised by Motta and the media for apparently feigning injury".
It addresses the facts and reports in the cited sources: 1. That Motta raised his hands and made contact with Busquets' face; 2. That Motta was shown a straight red card for violent conduct (the previous yellow he received is irrelevant); 3. That Motta himself is quoted criticising Busquets' actions in the reports.
Everything here is supported by the citations. Panhead2014 (talk) 22:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Reply to the first message of 21:01: (sorry, edition conflict) No. Touching an opponent's face is not foul per se, even though you seem to ignore this simple fact. Check the rules if you wish. It's up to the referee to decide if it is, and in this case most people believe Busquets' behavior has influenced that decision.
And again no, I'm neither painting just one side of the picture nor omitting facts, what I wrote just states what happened. Let's review it:
In the Champions League semi-final against Inter Milan at Camp Nou on 28 April 2010, he went down to the ground (it doesn't say neither imply that it was on purpose, it doesn't mention the rolling and the peekaboo that made this incident famous) after Thiago Motta had raised his arm, made contact with Busquets'face (no doubt about that, and again it's neither accusing nor assolving Motta) and supposedly pushed him. (again, it's supposed, it could have been a push or not, it's not for us to decide)[10] As a result of this action, (here we say that the ref decided it was a foul) Motta, who had already received a yellow card, was shown a straight red card and sent off, (nothing wrong here) and Busquets was subsequently criticised by the media for apparently feigning injury. (here we say that the media blamed Busquets)
About your conspiracy theories, first, you've been accusing everyone who disagreed with you, not just me, and you started much before I came into the picture. Second, you can't possibly know what other pages I've edited, since my IP is dynamic. I've been editing sporadically for a couple of years on various pages, I started editing this page after you started your edit war, in case you didn't notice. --95.239.158.103 (talk) 22:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Reply to the second message of 22:20: It seems good to me, but it's similar to what I wrote before, what was the point in arguing then? --95.239.158.103 (talk) 22:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Gringoladomenega talk 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Gringoladomenega You have been asked to explain why you insist on deleting a credible source of information regarding this incident (BBC link). You also need to explain why you have deleted the fact that Motta received a straight red card for this incident. You have deleted and reverted edits without explanation and only now contribute to the discussion after I reported you. 95.239.158.103 has discussed this and we seem to be in agreement with what should be wrote.
Also, without getting personal, look at your own behaviour on WP, you have received multiple 3RR warnings and cautions for deleted articles and templates unnecessarily. Panhead2014 (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
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Busquets hasn't joined Inter Miami yet so we must keep it like it is right now. 212.52.246.35 (talk) 14:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
To anyone editing this page take notes that only league appearances count stop changing busquets from 0 to 1 SubmachineOP (talk) 04:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
102.88.62.7 (talk) 08:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
sergios toral apps for barcelona is 719 and not 400