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People, you might like it or not, but Portugal and its colonies were never part of the spanish empire. When Philip II of Spain was acclaimed Philip I of Portugal (legally, so it was not an invasion [although some portuguese didn't want the new dynasty and fought]) one of the conditions was remaining Portugal separate, as a personal union. So when that happened Portugal was not absorved into Spain, Portugal and Spain remained two independent separate countrys, just with the same king and obviously politics. So, Spanish empire never had the portuguese possessions but the spanish king had both empires. That's the diference that people seem to confuse. When Philip IV of Spain and III of Portugal wanted to absorb Portugal into Spain there was a war for DYNASTIC INDEPENDENCE, not for separation of the two countries. Of course we might not neglect the pro-spanish thinking of the kings, they were spanish in origin, so we might say that Portugal was under spanish influence, but independent.
That map shows not the spanish empire but the possessions of the king of Spain AND Portugal. You can call it the Philippine empire, the Portuguese-Spanish empire, etc, but with the lands included it is NOT ONLY the spanish empire.--Câmara 15:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The legend in the portuguese empire page is good. It shows the same map but it says: "An anachronous map showing the Portuguese possessions ruled by the Habsburg kings (1580-1640) jointly all Spanish colonies (1492-1975), shown together simultaneously and at their maximum extent."
Depends how you define this empire - see the "Definition". Also read the "Empire" article on the heterogenous nature of the organisation of empires. You are right about the Dynastic Independence - in a technical legalistic sense, yet in reality it was one empire, as it was effectively under one ruler - and Portugal was conquered and occupied by Spanish forces. For an analogy think about how the Warsaw pact was in reality part of the Soviet empire, inspite of the official independence of its member states. Of course it might be better to call it the Spanish-Portuguese-Aragonese- Bergundian empire - all a bit of a mouthful. As it was the "Spanish" part that was the dominant one its easiest to call it the Spanish, but in our nationalistic era this seems to cause misunderstandings. Maybe we should clarify these issues a little more in the Definition, so that people understand better the nature of this distinctly Renaissance era empire, with its diffuse authorities and its evolving nature. But lets not get lost too much in technicalities, we could go on and on Provocateur 23:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
after reading the first few discussions i wondered to my self...... do any of you go to a university that teaches about the Spanish empire? i do go to a university that teaches exactly this which i have the benifit to be able to obtain relevant books on this topic at the library. Spain was truly a global empire, someone please pick up a book and read it first - preferably one by the leading academics in this field such as Henry Kamen, Hugh Thomas and of course Geoffrey Parker. i am pretty sure that Henry Kamen explains how large the spanish empire really was in his book 'Kamen, H, Empire: How Spain became a world power: 1492 - 1763' though i cant be bothered at the moment finding it but i will post it up here later when i have time. but i think i will add something very interesting to this discussion. according to the book "the Grand Strategy of Phillip II" by geoffrey Parker the very words "The world is not enough" comes from the Latin words of "non sufficit orbis" which was inscribed on a bronze medal (coin) in 1583 commemorating the creation of Phillips global empire. This is shown on page five and if anyone has the book you will see the medal has a picture of phillip on one side and a picture of the world with a horse on top of it on the other with the words "NON SUFFICIT ORBIS" situated around the world. Truly, spain was one of those empires that was enormous but i will try and get exact details on how big it is compared to the roman empire which i think is in another book i have.
I think you will find also that there were movements by the catholic orders to promote equal treatment of native Indians and laws were passed though its been a long time since i read about that so i can only be very vague about it as i also have to read up on it. unsigned comment by User:203.206.255.133 on 09:52, August 2, 2006
===>Thanks? That's not helpful. If you have some actual evidence to cite, please do. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 14:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Many academics are partial... Xyzt1234 21:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Western Sahara was awarded to Spain in 1884 at the Berlin Conference, so the sentence
"Spain lost all the colonial possessions in the first third of the century, except for Cuba, Puerto Rico and, isolated on the far side of the globe, the Philippines, Guam and nearby Pacific islands, as well as Spanish Sahara (mostly desert), parts of Morocco, and Spanish Guinea."
must be rewritten. Same applies to "parts of Morocco", which weren't Spanish until 1906 (Algeciras Conference), unless you consider that these "parts of Morocco" are Ceuta and Melilla, which is even more controversial.
I have made this small addition: , "enacting the most extraordinaty epic in human history, in the words of the prominent French historian Pierre Vilar", but user Merc has reverted it. What is wrong with that?.Veritas et Severitas 03:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am ging to be very rigorous with my sources:
Pierre Vilar Histoire de L'Espagne 21st Edition ISBN 2 13 051585 1
Page: 33.
Original text in French: ...la plus extraordinaire epopee de l'histoire humaine.
So I am introducing this small addition again.Veritas et Severitas 18:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The flag reported as the flag of New Spain is not so. This flag is known as "Cruz de Borgoña" (Cross of Burgundy), and, according to Santiago Dotor, from Flags of the World, was the Spanish military flag from the 16th century up to 1843, when the colours of the 1785 War Ensign were adopted for use on land too. So it may have been used in New Spain as well as in any territory within the Spanish Empire as flag of the Army. Archael Tzaraath 14:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
FYI, for anyone interested there are two AFD discussions going on at
The best of Spain undisputably dominated Amsterdam, Belgium, Rome, Sicily and the most noteworthy Peru empire and Aztec empire at the same timeline. It took at least 3 super powers and 2 centuries ago to stop them
The best of Britain and France are not close that good
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.34.61 (talk • contribs)
The Best of Spain dominated Portugal,parts of France ,Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Italy , Holy Roman Empire , England & Ireland Crown consort , Incan/Aztec empires , and southern USA ,
it took England & France & Ottoman & Holland & revolts EVERYWHERE and 2 CENTURIES TO STOP THEM
France or UK never got so close , once Spain dominated 1/3 of europe t —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC).
madrid did win the best sport club of the 20th century so colonialism is not the worst thing to be proud of. For example U.K should give Gilbratar back to Spain, that is the worst hing to be proud of
Gibraltar is a part of the UK's Empire, but come on, that happened 300 years ago, Gibraltar in Spanish
liberated?the town was occupied and the spaniards expelled--84.232.107.40 22:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Woe to those whose ego and national pride depend on their countries' fallen empires, for their unwarranted self importance will make them collide with each other... (And for some reason this seems rather typical of both Spaniards and Brittons, while denizens of other countries avoid revelling in the shameful fact of European colonialism of the world, for the most part) One wonders what's the gain of these. It's not like they'll get a governorship of Peru or India for their armchair patriotism, right? --217.127.191.232 (talk) 14:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't the empire at its territorial height between 1580 and 1640, when it had control of Portugal and its empire? During that period it ruled basically the same areas it did in 1790, except for the central and most of the western US, which area was surpassed by that of Brazil and other Portuguese territories, probably. SamEV 23:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Since it is commonly stated that the Empires of the Modern Age include the possesions of the Sovereigns of those Empires and not the territories effectively administered by the metropolis, it is not wrong to say that Portugal was a possesion of the King of Spain, and therefore a part of the Empire of the King of Spain. In other words, Portugal, Brazil and all the territories of the Portuguese Empire were, for 60 years, part of the Spanish Empire.
Maybe you are right but then it is not even wrong to say the Spanish Empire was part of the Portuguese Empire for 60 years either since King Felipe II (I for Portugal) was the son of a Portuguese princess and he ruled which much love the country of his mother. What historians sometimes denied is that both countries fought side by side in several battles to protect both colonies Spanish and Portuguese against the Dutch, English and the French. (Filipe)
Camara, you're in denial... The Spanish king took over Portugal. And Spain DID have control over it, in fact Portugal's rebellion was due to the heavy taxation brought upon it by Philip III of Spain. It wasn't a union, such as that between Aragon and Castile. There was no Portuguese monarch, just the Spanish king. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.176.9 (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure. A Raised-in-Portugal-Grandchild-of-the-King-of-Portugal-and-favored-by-the-Portuguese-nobility Spanish King. Oh, and his father was German. ;p --217.127.191.232 (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for my horrible english, but part of "God is Spanish" say that the piracy was dangerus for the Emperie economi. I have was study that information and I haven't found any author who say that (spanish and no spanish). Some pirates, like Drake, sometimes could get a few important ships; but that was a exception no the rule. That idea is more from Hollywood movies that History investigations.
w:es:Usuario:Zósimo I'm agree. I'm spaniard, and doctors told me the same at the university. Piracy could'nt take anything because the Armada was always with the galeones during the trip from Hispanoamérica to España. Doctors told me also that most of piratas come from G.Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.118.208 (talk) 22:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I rather suspect that there might have been a few Dutch ships more than inclined to opportunisticly join in too, (at least untill that was covered in one of the peace deals between the Dutch and the Spanish. And anyway, I rather thought Drake and co. were carrying state issued paperwork, therefore they weren't pirates (perhaps "commerce raiders" would be a more appropriate modern termMariya Oktyabrskaya (talk) 04:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Both the page for the Portuguese Empire and the Spanish Empire say they were the first global empire. What's up with that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.28.245.188 (talk • contribs)
Allright but did the spanish forget the 60% of all the spanish territories in Europe were lent by marriage with the habsburg family and they were protected by Portuguese soldiers. historical facts and archives in Antwerp Belgium proofs those facts, as well in Reggio Calabria in Italy. Regards from a Portuguese that lived in Antwerpen and Calabria in Italy !!!!
===Semiprotection request===
Hi The Ogre, I noticed you are keeping reverting anons on this page, I just wonder if you would agree if I asked for a semiprotection request here. --Andersmusician $ 23:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I really think this is a stupid debate only interesting for portuguese and spanish national-"chauvinistes". Portugal and Spain (Castile) compited in 15 and 16 centuries, and now some portuguese and some spaniards seem to be very concerned about it. But who was the first? Who knows? Was the Guinness World Records there? Say (here and in the Portuguese Empire) that Spain and Portugal compited to be the first and it will be true. What you say, The Ogre and the others, is not more than an oppinion, not the truth. Saludos. --Ignacio 22:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
yeah bud just because its on another wikipedia article doesnt mean its right. Which it isnt. Spain was the worlds first truly GLOBAL empire. Portugal was establishing colonies before spain but not across the pond. Im sure you've heard of Christopher Colombus? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.226.67.23 (talk) 05:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
We heard about Christopher Columbus wich serve Portugal before Spain. You heard about Bartolomeu Dias, Nicolau Coelho etc., Vasco da Gama and Pedro Álvares Cabral joining Americas to Asia and to Africa and Europe - and Far East to Europe?
The first Global Empire was Portugal.
In 1500-1501 - the first one in 4(or 5) Continents and the first one spread by some more Subcontinents - and with the first Establishments in the Moluccas, Ceram and Banda Islands in 1512-1513 the first in 5(or 6) Continents - in fact already in the Australian continental plate - and proclaiming nominal domain on west Papua (New Guinea) in 1526.
Let us respect the Truth and history.
Of course Spain and Portugal joined in 1580 to 1640 had formed wider a double truly global empire.
In other way You could write that the Spanish empire with the Portuguese, was one of the first global empires. Became better historical justice. Portugal was the first. In your way, you could say that it was the British, more late, but with the eventually first oficial claims and some missions-establishments in Antártica?!
A user is unilaterally changing the Spanish empire map with another. That map has been there long as a result of consensus. In any case, this user seems to ignore that for a long time (1580-1640) Portugal and its empire were also under Spanish rule and the Portuguese broke away in 1640 with a fight. The deleted map is more complete and this one now also ignores other areas controlled or claimed by Spain. I leave you with this guy though, who seems to make changes on his own and personal point of view. I will respond no more. Tired of this type of users. Good luck. 65.11.114.84 02:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ogre and Camara , im tired of seeing this historical revisionism and i would like to add some of my life's work to you biased knowledge
The Spanish Empire was a multi-global enterprise and in EUROPE (European Spanish Empire) was created mostly by DYNASTIC UNIONS and not conquer , the branch of the Austrians and Spanish Hasburgs were separated after the abdication of HRE Charles V or Charles I of Spain , this basically means WHATEVER land was given to Phillip II of Spain ; the italians (not all) , dutch , belgium , luxemburguese , german and french lands (Burgundy) among many others WERE SPANISH , like it or not , that is undoubtable .
So when Portugal was acquired after the death of the young Portuguese King in North Africa , Phillip gained control of Porugal and the Portuguese Empire , which at the same time made Castille/Aragon the first global superpower and ALSO halted portuguese expansion and power
Portugal became just like Naples , another dominions of the spanish KINGS... While Phillip agreed not to ANNEX Portugal to Castille/Aragon and respect its laws, this was mostly to satisfy the portuguese nobility who SAW Phillip as a FOREIGN PRINCE and it even took Phillip an invasion of Portugal to get the throne, the invasion however was supported by a POLARIZED "pueblo"
So we can say Portugal became part of "Spain" but not a annexed kingdom , unlike the spanish lands in europe , i say Portugal and Spain union were "SUI GENERIS"-EuroHistoryTeacher
Hello Onofre Bouvila! I am sorry to say but the present map, the one you've just added is completly POV! The Spanish Empire never included the Portuguese Empire! They were two different empires ruled by the same dinasty - the Habsburgs! And there is already a map showing the extent of both empires at the exact time of the Iberian Union. This map is wrong because it implies that the Portuguese Empire was Spanish, and because it mingles an anachronous view of the Spanish Empire with the Portuguese possessions between 1580-1640. I really am not disussing the details regarding the exact borders of the Spanish territories, but a map of this sort, and first of all the firts one to appear in the article, should not emply the communality of Spanish and Portuguese possessions. I'm not reverting you just now, but this needs to be discussed and changed. The Ogre 18:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Portugal was under Spanish rule for 60 years. The Portuguese only got independence through a rebellion. Anything else is sophistry, and I am tired of sophistry here. Just learn some basic history. Many areas of Spain have always retain a lot of independence in many respects, still they were and are part of Spain. Not all situations in the dominions under Spanish rule were the same: The Americas, Holland etc, possessions of Italy, Portugal, etc. The Spanish empire was huge and therefore complicated, but to say that Portugal was not under Spanish rule for 60 years and that they did not achieve independence through a rebellion against Spain is simply so ignorant of History, so full of manipulation and twisted lies that I will not comment anymore. As to the areas it is explained in the map. Some were colonized, others claimed. This discussion was already held long ago. According to this type of sophistry the Canadians should redefine their map, because in fact most of the country has virtually never seen a human being. But I am not going to go over discussions that were held time ago. Good luck here with the types of contributors that we all can see. Bye. 65.11.114.28 19:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
This is my last word here. Tired of Portuguese nationalistic fantasies. I have already seen in other places some Dutch claim that Holland was not under Spanish rule, going around the issue with the same type of fantasies. But this is Wiki, a heap of garbage. Definitely goodbye. 65.10.51.251 19:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to add a word here - Empire - read that article very carefully, especially the first two paragraphs and also the section on the heterogenous organization of empires. If there is any justification for calling the Spanish Empire "Spanish" it is because what was crucial to holding this whole empire together were Spanish forces, though the contributions of others within the empire were, nevertheles, important. When said Spanish forces failed Portugal broke away. I think part of the cause of disputes here is the confusing of the Spanish Empire with the Spanish colonial empire that was administered from Seville. It is true that the Spanish and Portuguese colonial empires were kept legally and administratively seperate. Provocateur 04:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Retrived from Talk:Hispanic, Talk:Spanish people#Map_again and User talk:Ramirez72#Map of the Spanish Empire
User The Oger, a Portuguese, goes around deleting the Spanish Empire map that obviously includes Portugal and its empire because, as anyone knows versed in history, Portugal and its empire were part of the Spanish Empire from 1580 to 1640, when the Portuguese broke away with a fight. I am growing tired of lies and manipulation by some users for nationalistic or other issues or just plain ignorance. 65.11.70.234 14:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
You can talk all you want to this user called The Oger. He will not listen. Just follow his history. He goes around Wiki deleting the consensus map from Wiki everywhere. 65.10.51.251 20:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Portugal and its empire was part of the Spanish empire from 1580 to 1640. But it seems that some users want to hide another fact too badly. I do not care. I am more and more convinced that Wiki stinks with so many people lying and manipulating. 65.11.70.234 13:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The posted map looks fine to me. It states clearly that the two empires remained separate. --Burgas00 21:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Portugal was under Spanish rule for 60 years and in Modern History, if that is not a historical link related to the Spanish state(and therefore to its people) I do not know what a historical link is (apart from many others)During this period most Portuguese writers wrote in Spanish and Portuguese, etc, in the same way as in the middle ages most Spanish poets wrote in Calician-Portuguese, etc. The Portuguese only got independenc from Spain through a rebellion. Anything else is sophistry, and I am tired of sophistry here. Just learn some basic history. Many areas of Spain have always retain a lot of independence in many respects, still they were and are part of Spain. Not all situations in the dominions under Spanish rule were the same: The Americas, Holland etc, possessions of Italy, Portugal, etc, more recently Morrocco, etc and on and on: All different situations. The Spanish empire was huge and therefore complicated, but to say that Portugal was not under Spanish rule for 60 years and that they did not achieve independence through a rebellion against Spain is simply so ignorant of History, so full of manipulation and twisted lies that I will not comment anymore. As to the areas it is explained in the map. Some were colonized, others claimed. This discussion was already held long ago in the Spanish Empire map. According to this type of sophistry the Canadians should redefine their map, because in fact most of the country has virtually never seen a human being, etc. But I am not going to go over discussions that were held time ago. Good luck here with the types of contributors that we all can see. Bye. 65.11.114.28 19:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello¡¡ I m totally agree
Hello Ramirez72! Yes, the new map (Spanish Empire-World Map.png) is good. Good job! But why do you add new maps, instead of uploading a new version of the existing ones? You see, by adding new maps you are multiplicating the number of maps on the same subject, wich is a bit confusing... Just check the list of maps available on the Spanish Empire!
By the way, you should check all the pages that have some of these maps and correct the links, I'll try to do the same. Thank you! The Ogre 16:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
There were several paralel discussions about this issue, I've diverted them here. Also, I'm placing a request for participacion in the discussion at Talk:Portuguese Empire, Talk:Evolution of the Portuguese Empire, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portugal, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spain. The Ogre 13:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Ive just spend a hard time adding an infobox to the article, also adding some other pics, please tell me if it's ok or not. --Andersmusician 03:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I 've just reuploaded this to a version without contemporary country borders in south america. --Andersmusician 19:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Well it's a long period so maybe first toledo and then seville, so if you bring us dates we can edit capitals designment --Andersmusician $ 05:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Capital: Seville???? Common!
No Portuguese territories? They were part of Spain. What's with all the revisionism here? It's against the site's policy. If Portugal wasn't part of the empire, then there can be none...you see Spain was construed by many former independent entities. Portugal was in the same status as the rest. In fact Portugal seperated half a century later because of the taxes imposed by the Spanish king. Spain had complete control over it. I changed the map to the only correct one of the above. It is a good map, and is even precise enough to include the Spanish occupation of northern Taiwan (which lasted 17 years), which not many know about. Mainstream history dictates that Portugal was indeed annexed by Spain, which is what Wikipedia should keep to, not revisionism.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.176.9 (talk) 21:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Common!
somebody (the nationalistic anon(which is not bad to be so)) added the king phillip II's coat on the infobox, but I don't know whether we should use that one or the old one. Then Ignaciogavira (talk · contribs)added the Charles I's coat --Andersmusician $ 21:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
--Andersmusician $ 21:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Any of those coats are correct in one or another period of the spanish empire. I have added finally the only coat common to all the period, as resumed coat of arms of the spanish monarchs, representing the Crown of Castile. The first one belongs to the San Francisco Presidio National Park, in the USA, but it is not representative of a spanish coat of arms.
--Ignacio 10:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion this stuff [1] is an instance of WP:LISTCRUFT and WP:FLAGCRUFT, not to mention misleading. The Spanish Empire was not "succeeded by" the Netherlands or Puerto Rico, it withered away until it was put out of its misery by the USA in 1898. If anything, as the ruler of a set of colonies once held by Spain, one could argue that the USA "succeeded" it. Details like these should be left to the text of the article, where there is no ambiguity. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
The spanish american war didnt end the spanish empire. god. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.151.44 (talk) 22:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former Countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of now-defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). In order to avoid any confusion that might linger it might be worth while to point out that the project also applies to former empires with their various subdivisions and colonies.
The project exists to improve the articles within its scope, and one of the ways is this is managed is to introduce common structures in the articles in order to make the content more readily accessible to the reader. An important part of this common structure is the infobox, which collates certain features and facts for an easy review but this does not replace the need for an in-depth explanation in the text of the article.
Issues related to the article should be raised here on the talk page, but issues related to the WikiProject should be raised on the talk page of the project. Removing information and material such as the infobox that is supported by the project from the article is not very considerate, not to mention counter productive to establishing a common structure for similar articles, in this case former empires.
Anyone who is interested in and wishes to influence the project is encouraged to join. -- Domino theory 19:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok, this is from Encyclopedia Britannica...it doesn't get any more official or mainstream as this. And I quote: "During the short reign of Sebastian's old uncle, King Henry (1578–80), Philip carefully prepared his ground in Portugal by intrigue and bribery. Nevertheless, when Henry died, the opposition to Castile was still so strong in Portugal and the attitude of France and England so threatening that it was necessary for Philip to send Alba with an army to conquer Portugal in 1580." The privileges enjoyed by the Portuguese were no different than those applied to the Catalans. It was the exact same case. Spain still had total control over the territory. In fact heavy taxation on the Portuguese is what caused the seperation in 1640! The arguments used by Portuguese revisionists here is totally contradictory and should be put to an end, along with their vandalization of the article.
Source http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-70402/Spain
Therefore Portuguese territories SHOULD be included in the anachronous map, theone in use is misleading and historically incorrect. I suggest this article be disabled for editing by unkown users.
Anon editor is reverting to the (misleading) map showing Portuguese and Spanish colonial possessions. To quote Henry Kamen, "Empire: How Spain Became a World Power, 1492-1763" [2]: "After the union of the crowns of Portugal and Spain in 1580...Spain found itself in the difficult position of having to respect Portuguese primacy in major areas of commercial enterprise. Philip II promised the Cortes at Tomar in 1580 that he would scrupulously preserve the independence of his new realm. The monarchy, he stressed, was a union of free and autonomous states that operated separately. There is no doubt that the King did his best to maintain the autonomy of Portugal. In practice, however, the interests of Spain and Portugal became closely intertwined, thanks in good measure to the Portuguese financiers who entered the service of the Spanish crown." Just to repeat: Philip II promised the Cortes at Tomar in 1580 that he would scrupulously preserve the independence of his new realm. The monarchy, he stressed, was a union of free and autonomous states that operated separately. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Your source says union of states.....
Are you even reading your own quotes? Talk about not being well read...
Maybe your effort in belittling me could be put to better use.
And Philip was the king of Spain, therefore Spain conquered Portugal. This isn't original research or whatever you would like to dress this as. I was taught this in World History, no research needed. And I use this source because it encompasses neutrality. It doesn't get any more non-POV than Encyclopedia Britannica.
Also: con·quer (kŏng'kər) Pronunciation Key v. con·quered, con·quer·ing, con·quers
v. tr.
To defeat or subdue by force, especially by force of arms. To gain or secure control of by or as if by force of arms: scientists battling to conquer disease; a singer who conquered the operatic world. To overcome or surmount by physical, mental, or moral force: I finally conquered my fear of heights. See Synonyms at defeat.
68.179.176.9 02:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I would like to add another source that backs me up:
There was never any question of the institutional incorporation of Portugal into the Castilian system of government. The union of crowns was carried out strictly on the basis of the system that prevailed in the Spanish Habsburg empire, the Aragonese federative system of separate principalities. Felipe II swore not to interfere in the laws, customs, or system of government of Portugal and not to appoint Spaniards to Portuguese offices. This pledge was largely respected during the reigns of Felipe II and Felipe III, and even afterward under Felipe IV, so that the kingdom and its overseas [244] empire remained completely separate and essentially autonomous under the Hispanic crown. - Stanley G. Payne (reknowned Iberian historian FYI).
http://libro.uca.edu/payne1/payne12.htm
According to this Portugal was under the same autonomy as the other states. So if you insist on this I'm afraid the Spanish Empire simply never existed then, eh? Also, note how he says ...essentially autonomous under the Hispanic crown. This means Portugal was not an equal, it was subject to Spain. You see, autonomy doesn't exactly equal independence, as shown by the heavy taxation that in the end led to Portugal's seperation.
68.179.176.9 04:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Wow, dear Lord. So I looked into your source, and guess what? Clearly biased.
http://hnn.us/readcomment.php?id=9646
Sorry Red, but you need to do better than that. It's starting to become obvious that you are pushing an agenda here.
68.179.176.9 04:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
IMHO, this second choice seems more appropriate as it includes all territories under the personal rule of Philip II. --Victor12 04:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, look here Spanish_Empire#.22God_is_Spanish.22_.281596.E2.80.931626.29. The map showing the two countries' empires during the union is on the page, just not at the top. This should be enough for you. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 10:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
That is NOT original research! Please tell me this isn't the only moderator here! This site is a wiki, and here we are having someone's beliefs imposed on us because he's a moderator, despite having 2 much more reliable, non-POV neutral sources that CLEARLY back up what we are saying. Original research? If you read the article on Kamen, he is criticised by a wide array of reputable historians, including the royal academy of history in Spain. We can't have a guy widely being accused of rubbishing the history of Spain as a source on the Spanish Empire. Please Red, do what is right. I also find it very funny that the only ones asking for Portugal not to be included have Portuguese names. And by the way, Stanley G. Payne's excerpt is from a book.
Here's some background on him, funny you say he's "any old source": http://history.wisc.edu/people/emeriti/cv/payne_cv.pdf
Encyclopedia Britannica is a great source as well, you can't deny that.
The Encyclopædia Britannica is a general English-language encyclopaedia published by Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., a privately held company. The articles in the Britannica are aimed at educated adult readers, and written by a staff of 19 full-time editors and over 4,000 expert contributors. It is widely considered to be the most scholarly of encyclopaedias.[1][2] 68.179.176.9 14:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
For the second time - I'll put it in bold and in capitals and in large letters - THE MAP SHOWING THE TWO EMPIRES IS ALREADY ON THE PAGE! With a much less controversial colouring scheme and legend, I might add. Spanish_Empire#.22God_is_Spanish.22_.281596.E2.80.931626.29. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 10:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick. You do not seem to understand what we have at hand here. Two non-POV neutral sources which support that Portugal was incorporated into the Spanish Empire. You have one source, which states the same (albeit much more vague), but can't be used anyway because there is controversy surrounding the work, and claims of bias from other historians.
What you are trying to do is throw us off. We're not stupid, that map shows the Portuguese territories as if they weren't part of the Spanish empire. Not only that, these territories are not in the anachronous map. The map that I put up, on the other hand, is perfectly accurate.
68.179.176.9 11:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I've been looking at the article in more detail and I find it very troubling that Henry Kamen is basically the main source for everything. This has to be changed according to wikipedia's rules. I suggest using Stanley G. Payne' work, as there is no controversy surrounding it and the author is a well known Iberian historian.
68.179.176.9 11:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
More quotes:
What is abundantly clear from these quotes is that (a) historians consider by this stage the two political entities to be "Spain" and "Portugal", not the various sub-realms of the monarchy and (b) the two empires were administered separately. The pair of you are engaged in original research, and I'm now fed up of arguing about it. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 22:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
You keep labeling it as original research. I smell denial in the air, considering the sources we have and the ones you lack. 68.179.176.9 01:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Sources I lack? I'll repeat two of them for your benefit that spell it out in english simple enough for a ten year old to understand:
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Repeat? You never revealed them.
And again that doesn't state that Portugal was independant, it was autonomous. This means nothing as Spain was made up of autonomous entities. And as my source stated, its status was no different than any of the other viceroyalties. And yes Portugal had a viceroy as Victor was kind enough to point out. In fact what you are doing here is interpreting autonomous and seperate as independant. The only one doing original research here is you:
Original research (OR) is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. The term also applies to any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."
68.179.176.9 01:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
You're supposed to keep arguments civil...
And you must have edited those in after I read the original message, I never saw them.
68.179.176.9 01:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Actually you were right. I saw one of victor's posts end similarly and I thought that is where I left off. Still your behavior in unacceptable. 68.179.176.9 01:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Ok, now that I've read this I'll comment firstly that the second source you quote is from an author with a Portuguese name. That could easily be a biased point of view. Just as Spanish historians should be kept from being a source as much as possible.
Secondly, the Spanish Habsburgs are what historians refer to as the Spanish empire. They were the political entity uniting Spain. The Spanish Habsburgs spoke Spanish, had their government based in Spain, and had a majority of Spanish administrators and generals. Hence why they are called the Spanish Habsburgs. Portugal became one of the territories of the Spanish empire when the Spanish king took the crown (which needed an invasion army to secure it). Red, seriously even your sources are agreeing with this, you are just interpreting autonomous in the incorrect way. 68.179.176.9 02:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Oh dear...first of all everything I have claimed is sourced, I'm not conjuring this up on the spot. I am only commenting on a fact that could disagree with wikipedia's policies, simple as that.
Anyways, look at this quote of yours: Portugal was left with substantial control over its own administration and its own overseas empire...While continuing to govern their own empire, the Portuguese . How is this backing you up? All your sources simply claim it was autonomous. Notice how it says Portugal had substantial control over its territories. 68.179.176.9 02:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Original research...? All historians dealing with "Spain" under the Habsburgs understand "Spanish Empire" as the domains of the "Spanish kings", nothing else. Not one of them tries to prove that Spain existed as a nation in the 16th and 17th centuries. But as you'll probably won't believe my words, I'll try to hit the library tomorrow for sourcing. Please be patient, more is coming :-) --Victor12 02:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Again, seperate or autonomous don't equal independent. We know that the territories themselves were continued to be run by Portuguese people (except under Philip IV), however as the sources say it was under the same political freedom as any other Spanish state. You're interpreting seperate and autonomous incorrectly. 68.179.176.9 13:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Again, and again, seperate doesn't mean independent. As the sources say, administratively it was identical to the other states making up the Spanish empire.
Here's another source on the subject, from the library of congress: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+pt0040)
Good example of the power Spain held over the Portuguese. It says the Portuguese refer to this period as the time of Spanish captivity.
I might also like to add, though this is a bit off topic, that the Spanish empire was the first global empire because it had territories on every continent unlike Portugal (Portugal never had any territories in Europe, north America, and I think they hadn't any in Oceania either). 68.179.176.9 13:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
1. He was also King of Naples, King of Aragon, etc etc.
2. Portugal wasn't an independant state. It was under the same administration as the rest of the states making up the Spanish empire.
3. The map should reflect all the territories making up the Spanish empire, no matter how autonomous they were. All those running the Portuguese territories were ethnically Portuguese, but were ultimately Spanish subjects.
4. As far as I know Victor is doing exactly that today, according to his last post. Still the sources I have given, though not containing a map, back us up quite strongly. And these are good sources. I have given books: Stanley G. Payne, and Encyclopedia Britannica. Plus the books you have sourced ironically back us up as well. 68.179.176.9 14:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Uh, goes against the standards of academia? Are you not acknowledging the sources all of a sudden? Also, anything from your reading is original research. 68.179.176.9 15:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
If I am understanding your proposal correctly, I find it vastly impossible. Because where exactly is the standard set? 68.179.176.9 15:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I read the Wikipedia policy you linked to. It basically says there isn't a problem if the source is acceptable. Guess what, all the sources mentioned are more than acceptable. I don't know if you're just grasping for straws or what, it doesn't make sense. 68.179.176.9 15:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Your style of argument reminds me somewhat of trying to have a rational discussion with a religious person: they will always rewrite the groundrules of the discussion such that it is impossible to refute what they are saying. I provide a source from a published author, your response is to not address the author's points, but to attack the author (an ad hominem argument). I provide sources from other published authors, your response is to say that I am interpreting them incorrectly. It's a pointless exercise debating with you, so I rather feel I am wasting my time. At least Victor is attempting to find some published material that backs up his point of view, as I have done. I look forward to seeing what he comes up with. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 15:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
You can belittle me all you want. It wont affect me. I haven't "attacked" any of the authors without reason. Or are you saying that I'm incorrect in my judgement of them? Isn't it policy in wikipedia to avoid controversial or possibly biased sources? I have no problem with the majority of your sources. But unfortunately those sources don't back what you claim.
I claim that Portugal was just another state making up the Spanish empire. All of the sources posted back this. All of the sources are 100% acceptable. If you have any problem with my sources be free to tell me what the problem is. I don't know how many times I have to post this.
And I'm afraid if you can't refute the statements that message of yours was responding to, you've already lost this argument. 68.179.176.9 20:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Spanish Empire Imperio Español | |
---|---|
1492–1898 | |
![]() | |
Capital | Toledo (until 1561) Madrid (after 1561) |
Common languages | Spanish |
Religion | Roman Catholic |
Government | Monarchy |
Monarch | |
• 1516-1556 | Charles I |
• 1886-1898 | Alfonso XIII¹ |
Regent | |
• 1886-1898 | Maria Christina |
History | |
1492 | |
• Conquest of the Aztec Empire | 1519-1521 |
• Conquest of the Inca Empire | 1532–1537 |
• Spanish-American War | 1898 |
Currency | Real, Escudo |
ISO 3166 code | ES |
¹ Queen Maria Christina of Austria served as regent during the minority of her son Alfonso XIII until 1902. |
Hi, just wanted to leave clear that this infobx helps a LOT with many key data, do we really have remove it because they don't have either at other empire pages?--Andersmusician VOTE 04:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The start and end date on the infobox are wrong and very controversial among other things. better just leave the infobox out. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.252.205.33 (talk) 06:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
There is evidence that the Spanish Empire is still around however meager. If the infobox is added it will just start edit wars on the dates and then the same ideas might be applied to the other empires articles such as the british empire starting more edit wars. Dont add it please.--71.252.205.33 06:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)Skidbladnir
It seems to me our current problem with the map stems from a lack of clarity about what is understood by the term "Spanish Empire". Does it include all the territories dominated by Spanish kings or only those dominated by "Spain"? If it's the former, then Portugal and its colonies need to be included in the map, if it's the latter, they shouldn't. IMHO, to solve this problem we need to look at books dealing with the "Spanish Empire" and its character rather than books about colonialism or Portugal as the latter only provide a partial view of what the empire was.
I've been rereading some books on this for references purposes, so far most of them are from Spanish authors or Spanish translations. I'll try to find more books in English on Monday or Tuesday, they were at another library :-( In the meantime I have some interesting quotes from one of the leading historians of "Imperial Spain": John Huxtable Elliott
As for the character of the Empire:
One of the greatest empires in world history is known to us as the Spanish Empire but this is not the name by which it was known to Spaniards themselves (...) Their monarch was not an emperor but a king ruling over an agglomerate of territories known as la monarquía española ("The Spanish Monarchy") and consists of Spain itself, the possesions of the king in Italy and northern Europe, and his American territories, known to Spaniards as las Indias. John H. Elliott, Spain and its world, 1500-1700: selected essays, (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1989), p. 7.
As for what the Empire consisted of:
In mentally and physically breaking out beyond the confines of the Pillars of Hercules into a wider world, the Spaniards were conscious of achieving something that surpassed even the feats of the Romans. They were on their way to a universal empire which was genuinely universal, in the sense of being global. This global advance can be simply plotted by a series of dates: the 1490s and 1500s, the conquest of the Caribbean; the 1520s, the conquest of Mexico; the 1530s, the conquest of Peru; the 1560s, the Philippines; the 1580s, the annexation of Portugal and the consequent acquisition of Portuguese Africa, the Far East, and Brazil. From this moment the empire of the king of Spain was indeed one on which the sun never set. John H. Elliott, Spain and its world, 1500-1700: selected essays, p. 8.
As for the status of Portugal within the empire:
Portugal was united to Castile in 1580 in exactly the same way as the crown of Aragon had united to Castile a hundred years before, preserving its own laws, institutions, and monetary system, and united only in sharing a common sovereign. John H. Elliott, Imperial Spain, 1469-1716, (Middlesex: Penguin Books, 1963), p. 274.
From this quotes it seems clear to me that:
I'll try to post more sources in English over the next days. Please be patient, no libraries here until Monday. In the meantime please try to consider the point I made on the first paragraph, that in order to solve this dispute we need to focus on what the Spanish Empire was as a whole rather than on studies of its constituent parts. --Victor12 22:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah, those are excellent. They are very clear and directly address the issue at hand unlike the sources posted before them. Thank you Victor.
As for the definition of the Spanish empire, I think it would be everything under the domain of the King at the time for a few reasons:
1. The Spanish Hapsburgs were based in what is currently part of Spain (Castile).
2. They spoke Castilian (the most prominent Spanish dialect).
3. Most of the administrative positions were held by Spaniards (meaning Basques, Catalans, Castilians, etc.)
4. Most of their military commanders were, again, Spaniards.
5. And last but not least, the simple fact that they are labeled as Spanish Hapsburgs. 68.179.176.9 22:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Red, the fact that he states Spain annexed Portugal pretty much overrides that. He could simply call it Portuguese because it was still run by ethnic Portuguese people. That doesn't change that fact that the Spanish empire was sovereign of those lands. What you claim is just an interpretation of the adjective Portuguese. Just as my interpretation above, which is equally as valid as yours. The fact he states, as I said, overrides both. 68.179.176.9 22:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Unfortunately I'm busy with Fluid Mechanics and Strength of Materials, I certainly don't have time to spend in the library this weekend. But I'd be happy to look for one during the week, I'll hit any historical atlas available there. 68.179.176.9 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I haven't been to the library yet, will probably do so towards the end of the week. However I was looking at one of my books and a different map describes Portugal as part of Spain which I thought should be added to the list of sources. It's a map describing the revolts in the Iberian peninsula from 1520-1652, and with Portugal it reads: inherited by Philip II of Spain, 1580; in revolt against Spain from 1640; recognized as independent 1668.
The book is: The Times Complete History of the World, edited by Richard Overy. Anything related to The Times is a good source in my opinion.
As I said then I'll look for an actual map of the empire later in the week. 68.179.176.9 12:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Was in the library today for a few minutes and I managed to look into a couple of historical atlases. I wasn't able to find any map of the Spanish Empire between 1580-1640. But I did stumble upon a map with Portuguese colonies in India and southeast Asia and it was labeled 1498-1580. I'll try to go to another library next week (very busy, one test on Friday and another on Monday).
The historical atlas with that map was simply titled Historical Atlas, and it was by William R. Shepherd. The map is on page 112.
68.179.176.9 16:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Spain refers to everything possessed by the Spanish Hapsburg at the time. We have several sources stating that the autonomy of Portugal wasn't unique within the empire. And you want us to ignore this because some sources refer to a king of Portugal (which I don't recall seeing)?
I'm hoping once I get this map you'll accept reality once and for all. 68.179.176.9 20:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Here's some more. I'm enjoying this.
I rest my case. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 20:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'm not sure where you will find this magic map, but you don't just have to find one map. You will have to show that it is the consensus of historians to draw maps of empires at the time with Portuguese colonies labelled as Spanish. You will have to show that it is the consensus of historians to not refer to the "Portuguese" and "Spanish" empires between the years of 1580 and 1640 - just to the "Spanish" empire (as though the "Portuguese" one mysteriously disappeared for sixty years). You'd have to provide quotes from historians such as "the Spanish colony of Brazil" or "the Spanish colony of Macau". Had you done much reading on the subject, you'd know that historians do not do this. They don't do this because it wasn't the case. The colonies remained Portuguese, in language, culture, religion (Jesuit vs Franciscans), defence and adminstration. You don't have to go to the library to find this out: try books.google.com. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 21:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
So you're denying he is referred to as King of Portugal? What have you read, beyond a Times Historical Atlas? Try this book The Grand Strategy of Philip II By Geoffrey Parker [11] "At his coronation as king of Portugal in 1581...". Or this book, The Colonial Spanish-American City: Urban Life in the Age of Atlantic Capitalism By Jay Kinsbruner, [12] "he was also the king of Portugal". In the index pages of England and the Spanish Armada: The Necessary Quarrel By MR James McDermott [13], "Philip II, as King of Portugal". Let's move onto Philip III of Spain and II of Portugal, if that is not enough for you. Portuguese Oceanic Expansion, 1400-1800 By Francisco Bethencourt, Diogo Ramada Curto [14] "the King of Portugal, Philip II (Philip III of Spain)". I know you strongly believe in your own original research - you're free to write it on your own website or in your own book - just not at Wikipedia. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 20:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I was talking about the quotes you have listed so far in this discussion. I thought it would be obvious.
Also, what I meant is he wasn't known as the king of Portugal first and formost, he was known as the king of Spain. Those quotes just comfirm that he inherited the crown.
I'm afraid we're going to need mediation for this in the end. You keep derailing this argument. All of your reasoning is very superficial, whereas we are basing our arguments on the facts of the administration of the empire rather than what adjective is used when describing territories.
How many maps will it take for it to be considered consensus by the way? Because obviously I can't count them all up.
68.179.176.9 20:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I only had half an hour between classes to do it last time. But after my test on Monday, I'll be free to go the the library downtown. The fact is I simply couldn't find any map of the empire in this period at all, so I haven't found anything that contradicts me either. Anyways, I'd say 3 maps should be enough to show it's consensus. 68.179.176.9 13:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I had enough time to go to the library between classes today and I found another source.
In 1580-81, Philip II of Spain, claiming the throne, conquered Portugal and acquired its empire, but national sovereignty was restored by the revolution of 1640 and the accession of John IV, founder of the Bragança dynasty, to the Portuguese throne. Worldmark Encyclopedia of the Nations, Europe, Tenth edition, Gale group. 68.179.176.9 16:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Have you two checked out the introduction to the Spanish Empire at Encarta? [18]. "At its greatest extent", the second paragraph begins - so we'd expect the Portuguese territories to be included, if you two are right, no? "in the Americas, Spanish territory stretched from Alaska through the western United States, Mexico, and Central America to southern Chile and Patagonia, and from the state of Georgia south to the Caribbean islands, Venezuela, Colombia, and Argentina." (No mention of Brazil!) "In Africa, at various times Spain occupied territories in the Western Sahara (present-day Morocco), and along the coast of what is now Equatorial Guinea, including the offshore island of Fernando Póo (now Bioko)." (No mention of the territories that would later become Guinea-Bisseau, Cape Verde, Mozambique, and Angola) "In Asia, Spain ruled the Philippine Islands, which the Spanish named after King Philip II in 1542." (No mention of Malacca, Macau, Goa, East Timor or Diu) Yet more evidence that the academic consensus is that, if we are to draw an anachronistic map of the Spanish Empire, which by definition shows its greatest extent, THE PORTUGUESE COLONIES SHOULD NOT BE INCLUDED!!!!!!!! The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 21:20, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't find any maps within the period at all. Also, that article seems to refer to a certain date when the Spanish empire was at its largest (under Charles III of Bourbon), it isn't anachronous. Don't worry, I'll find a map of the Spanish empire between 1580 and 1640 eventually, but I'm very busy. 68.179.176.9 23:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
How dramatic. I looked into 5-6 historical atlases, and I didn't find any map in the period at all. What makes you think it's non-existant? Tomorrow I'll try to go to the larger library downtown. 68.179.176.9 14:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I saw that same map (it was one of the atlases I looked at), and you ignored a very important part of that caption. It says that the Portuguese territories could be considered part of the empire. The author clearly contradicts the other sources by referring to Portugal as a special territory under Philip II, which it clearly was not. Needless to say I discarded the source, not only is he contradicting the other sources but he doesn't seem to be sure whether or not to include the territories in the first place.
And by the way, your indisputable sources claim it was distinct. Well, so were other parts of the empire. It's not a valid argument. 68.179.176.9 17:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I'm not rubbishing him. I'm pointing out was he says in the caption, which you chose and are choosing to ignore.
Here's another source for the fact that the Spanish empire in this time was made up of multiple dynastic unions: http://www.gencat.net/catalunya/eng/historia/historia4.htm Portugal wasn't special. 68.179.176.9 18:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
It states that during this period it was in a dynastic union, just as Portugal was. Sorry if that is too broad a concept for you to take in. 68.179.176.9 18:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I believe Victor is correct in his approach to this argument. We need to find a consensus for the definition of the Spanish empire. Was it everything ruled by the Spanish Hapsburgs? 68.179.176.9 18:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
The only author I (and many historians as I have showed) have a problem with is Henry Kamen. He has a controversial point of view of the empire, even going so far as to say the traditionally named Spanish Netherlands weren't part of the Spanish empire at all, among other things. So before it was original research, now it's synthesis? Right. 68.179.176.9 18:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Except that most of my arguments are backed by published sources (the latest one is the only exception) which have been quoted to no end. 68.179.176.9 18:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward 68.179.176.9 18:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Your argument is based on synthesis just as much as mine is. Neither of us have a source saying explicitly that the Portuguese territories were part of the empire, nor that they were independent. We are both using reasoning that leads us to conclude so. 68.179.176.9 18:28, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
My argument is based on the following quotes, each from different authors, look further up the page if you want the names and titles:
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 18:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
You know, it's funny. I'm looking at the articles on the Spanish empire in other languages and they seem to agree with us. Look at this map in the German version: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/0/0c/Untergang_der_Armada.png 1580-1640 zu Spanien The Spanish and Italian versions also comply. I'm trying to check the others as well. 68.179.176.9 18:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
And by the way, those quotes don't say Portugal was independent. They say it was seperate, legally distinct, run by Portuguese. The first two argumets are countered by our own, which state that it was common throughout the empire. If you were to go by that argument, the Spanish empire wouldn't even exist. You see the problem here is Spain as we know it wasn't a unified country in this time period. It was more of a confederation of states under an absolute monarchy. Now we go back to the question victor proposed: what was the Spanish empire during this period? Because you just as well know that historians do refer to a Spanish empire.
And I know they (the other articles) can't be used as a source. I simply said it amused me. 68.179.176.9 18:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I kept looking for Spanish armada maps (never thought of it). Found one by Shepherd: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/europe1560_shepherd.jpg. This is probably taken from a published source, I'll look into it. Now I'll know how to get maps of the period. It's safe to say that if they include Portugal as part of the Spanish empire they back our case. 68.179.176.9 19:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Uh, yeah. Then we'll just add Portugal to the map in that case ;) 68.179.176.9 19:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
The Age of discovery 1340-1600 [22]; The Spread of Colonization, 1600-1700 [23] - both maps span the period of the union, not even a hint that the Spanish empire consumed the Portuguese for 60 years. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 19:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The map I provided is more specific. The first maps you provided convey a large swatch of time in which it could easily be deemed not necessary, plus they're from the same author as the one I first posted. Are you saying he suddenly changed his mind and decided Portugal wasn't part of the empire? The last two are questionable, they don't exactly look very up-to-date if you know what I mean. We need modern, accurate maps here not contemporary of the period.
I just came back from the library. Only took me half an hour to find 5 maps, and I barely even touched into the subject.
Map 1: Map of the world c. 1600 including Portuguese overseas territories in the Spanish empire, plus Portugal itself obviously. Page 64, Atlas of World History, by John Haywood, Ph.D.
Map 2: Map of Europe c. 1618 including Portugal as part of the Spanish empire. Page 65, Atlas of World History, by John Haywood, Ph.D.
Map 3: Map of Europe including Portugal as part of the Spanish empire. Page 142-143, A History of the Modern World, by R.R. Palmer and Joel Colton.
Map 4: Map of Europe includng Portugal as part of the Spanish empire. Page 56, The History of Spain, by Peter Pierson.
Map 5: Map of Europe including Portugal as part of the Spanish empire. Page 91, The History Atlas of Europe, by Ian Barnes and Robert Hudson.
I'm guessing this wont be enough to convince you though, I'll go back tomorrow if that is the case. Now that I have the maps I'll see if I can find any accompanying text to add to our source list.
Funny, even the Portuguese version of this page includes the territories. 68.179.176.9 22:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
It's an atlas written by a Ph.D.
And what kind of child reads a historical atlas? Just because it has plenty of images?
Oh, and so according to you we can add in Portugal but not its territories? Fine by me, it's a step. 68.179.176.9 22:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Here it is: http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6528/spanishempireworldmapop0.png Verdict?
Oh and I could do without the childish comments. I've already put up with multiple attacks on my person during the entire discussion. 68.179.176.9 23:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I'm not saying it ceased to exist, I'm saying it was incorporated into the Spanish crown which is as you can see what historians refer to as the Spanish empire at this time. And I'm glad you're coming to a reasonable agreement. However there's a problem: how do we deal with Castile and Aragon? They were in a dynastic union. Philip the II was the first Spanish Hapsburg, and he inherited Castile and Aragon as seperate crowns among the other territories. I don't see why you have an issue with the map I put up in the first place: it describes the Portuguese territories as ruled jointly under the Spanish sovereign. 68.179.176.9 23:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
You just said you would accept adding Portuguese territories in a shade described as gained through inheritence. Or do you mean just Portugal should be added in that shade? And Spain as you describe it wasn't really so until the Bourbon dynasty. As far as I know there is no title such as King of Castile or King of Aragon in this day. 68.179.176.9 23:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Nevermind, there are such titles. Still it doesn't really affect the argument. 68.179.176.9 23:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
OK, I reread your post and realized you meant European territories. Well, I suggest we keep it simple. If the map that is already up is acceptable my version of it should be too. 68.179.176.9 00:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Remember what he says in the caption of the first map. I don't remember exactly but it's something along the lines of: more could be added to this map since Philip II inherited the Portuguese crown. Then he goes on to say (as you quoted) that it retained its administration of the empire. So obviously it is a matter of opinion according to him, or he wouldn't state the possibility of those territories being included. And if it's OK for the Netherlands, the Burgundian lands, etc to be shown in the same shade now, why is it all of a sudden an issue if we include Potugal in the map? 68.179.176.9 13:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I still think McEvedy's map isn't exactly as clear as you put it. Either way, as for the map you suggest, I still think the definition of Spain in this time needs to be cleared. 68.179.176.9 17:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Yes, and another issue with the map is there are territories that are missing as well: the northern portion of the Netherlands wasn't always independent. Plus some short-lived territories are also missing that are in the other map. Northern Taiwan was Spanish for 17 years (they had two forts there, and a few geographical features even have Spanish names), and part of New Guinea also shows up in some maps I've come by. Genoa wasn't part, but it was a very small territory and it might be tough to seperate it from Milan and make it look presentable. As for Rome, that can easily be fixed (just remove the top-left corner of the Italian shaded area). 68.179.176.9 17:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Let's clear some ideas. Philip II's army entered Portugal to secure his position as heir to the Portuguese throne (as the Council of Governors of Portugal, that ruled Portugal after the death of king Henry, appointed, against Anthony and other pretenders). So, it was not an invasion of Portugal by Spain, it was a pretenders war, in this case a pretender that was king of another kingdom (half portuguese, remember Philip's mother was portuguese and he was educated in the portuguese way too). Philip won the war and was acclaimed Philip I of Portugal. The Cortes of Tomar clearly stated that Portugal and the other iberian kingdoms ("Spain") would remain separated, two crowns, one king. So, it was not an annexation but a personal union of two countries. So, de jure Portugal and Spain were never united. In Portugal vice-kings were created not to rule Portugal from Spain but to rule Portugal as an extension of the king's power, i.e. vice-kings were part of the Portuguese hierarquical system but not of Spain, the same way counstries and enterprises today have vice-presidents, they are part of the country/enterprise system and have nothing to do with other countries/enterprises. In particular, they were created to substitute the king in Portugal as the king lived in Spain, to fill the gap that portuguese people felt without a resident king. Now let's see the de facto. Spain (I mean Castile+Aragon+Navarre) had an empire, Portugal another. When the personal union began, both country interests are respected, as it sould be. Portuguese empire was administrated by Portugal, not by Spain, and Spanish empire was administrated by Spain, not by Portugal. So, both empires were de facto separated, as none of the countries had power to control the other empire. It is an error call it Habsburg empire, because it was never an empire, but two (it did not have a centralised rule nor one part of it controlled the other). That way Iberian empire is also incorrect. Even worst is called it Spanish empire, as Spain, once synonymous of Iberia, now (XVI century) started to refer only to Castile+Aragon(+Navarre), other personal union that started a century before. And also because today Spain is clearly different from Iberia. So, Portuguese empire was not part of the Spanish empire. Of course Portugal, who ruled its empire, was also not part of the Spanish empire. You can't rule a territory independently if you're controlled by someone else. Câmara 20:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
First in response to Red: I can't see any map in that link. Tell me the page in the book and I'll check it out later. And to Camara, as has been shown through the multiple souces that are probably way up there by now, Portugal was in the same condition as any other Hapsburg territory. It retianed its laws, and administration of the territories. Secondly, you need sources for what you claim. Most of what I read there is opinion. Also, the maps I provided clearly contradict your view. I'm sorry if it hurts your national pride, even Red admits that at least Portugal should be added. You say that Portugal was seperate because it was in a dynastic union. Well, sorry to say that Portugal isn't unique in that regard either. All the sources are posted in the long discussion we have had. I'd recommend you read it if you haven't already. 68.179.176.9 21:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Also in regard to Taiwan: http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/history/tw04.html. If you want a better source I'll get one, shouldn't be hard to find.
68.179.176.9 21:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Here's some more evidence that points out just how unique Portugal was (i.e. not unique at all): Legally, Spain's overseas empire was Castile's. Subjects of the Crown of Aragon were excluded, along with all other Europeans. The History of Spain, by Peter Pierson. 68.179.176.9 21:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. So now you're saying that the map should just have Castile? And by the way, this quote is taken from before Portugal was part of Spain, this is under Ferdinand and Isabella. The Hapsburgs weren't even in the equation yet. This quote makes two points in our favor: Spain was made up of the territories of the Hispanic monarchy, and Aragonese territories were in the same position as Portuguese territories. This remained that way until the Bourbon dynasty. And so that you can see how your argument is out of context, this is what comes before that quote: While Ferdinand focused on Italy, the American discoveries took on a life of their own and became the envy of Europe. 68.179.176.9 22:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
That's not a definiton of the Spanish empire. As I said you took the quote from out of context. The only territories at that moment were Castile's. Deny it all you wish, it's very obvious. Secondly, I provided one map that includes all of the Portuguese territories in Asia, Africa, and south America and 4 that include Portugal as part of Spain in Europe. And it doesn't constitute as original research, I have published sources backing me (you like slapping that on everything you can't refute don't you?). I'll check the other two maps of Colin McEvedy, but the first one states it is plausible to include Portuguese territories on the map. 68.179.176.9 22:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Easy, under the Bourbons Spain was a unified country, therefore from then on those territories belonged to all of Spain. I just gave you the quote. And as for the map, so you're saying the caption for the map is irrelevant? Also please stop using all caps, just use bold letters. 68.179.176.9 22:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Another quote that illustrates my point: Bourbon Spain was no longer a union of crowns but had become a unified kingdom. There you have it, a clear definition of Hapsburg Spain, a union of crowns. 68.179.176.9 22:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
"Spanish Empire, overseas territories in North and South America, Asia, Africa, and Oceania that were colonized and administered by Spain". Given that the Portuguese colonies were neither "colonized" nor "administered" by Spain - as per the quotes above - this hardly warrants inclusion of Portuguese colonies, does it? (Nor Portugal, either - but mind you, that's consistent with the legend of my proposed map, if you read carefully). The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 22:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
"Spanish Empire, overseas territories in North and South America, Asia, Africa, and Oceania that were colonized and administered by Spain". Exactly, it says it's all the territories administered by Spain. And what was Spain? Hint: read the quote I just gave you. 68.179.176.9 22:46, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
He was king of Castile, king of Aragon, king of Portugal, etc. All this together was Spain at that time, as you can see from my source. Spain was the union of these crowns. 68.179.176.9 22:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward 68.179.176.9 22:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
I have to leave now, I'll continue this discussion tomorrow afternoon if I can. 68.179.176.9 23:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Edward
Does anyone else see discussion of Portuguese colonies at the Spanish Empire article at Encarta? [34] Cos I don't. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I thought I'd just summarise my position and evidence again. The key point is that my position is not based on original research or synthesis - it's what can be found out there in reputable sources.
Red and I have agreed to include just Portugal itself in the map. However we are still discussing what shades to use. Meanwhile I'm simply uploading the simplest version of the map available. 68.179.176.9 13:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Edward
The map showing the possessions of the kings during the Spanish Golden Age and the Iberian Union is buried deep in the article. The strictly Spanish Empire map in the infobox doesn't inform enough about the worldwide power of Spain at that time. So mostly as a demo, I went ahead and editted it to show both maps, but only one image shows. My hope is that it becomes possible to show both. I thought the change could only be justified by explaining it in the image caption, which made it more verbose than would be necessary if both images were visible. SamEV 21:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Me and Red have already discussed this to death. Unless you can find a significant amount of maps that show the Portuguese overseas territories as part of the empire it can't be changed since it is considered synthesis. We have already agreed however that Portugal itself should be included as it is in several maps mentioned in the discussion above. Please leave the article as it is unless you have the necessary means to verify it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.176.9 (talk) 19:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Portugal was no more seperate from Castile than Aragon. This has already been cited in the discussion above. And that's all I'm saying, I'm out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.176.9 (talk) 21:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the kind of map I advocate for the introduction. The maps of the two empires can be verified reliably, both are clearly identifiable in this map, and the period and degree of Spanish control over the Portuguese is clearly stated and verifiable. So how is it synthesis? SamEV 17:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
To repeat them (you can find the authors and texts above) -
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
On whether the current map should show the Portuguese colonies.
You could check the spanish version of "Spanish Empire" and you can check the map, as well i wanted to add that Philip II governated in all those territoris from Portugeuse kingdom, and under the Spanish king, so that it means that was part of Spanish kingdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.43.120 (talk) 09:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
This just sounds as pure spanish propaganda...The spanish version of "Spanish Empire" is biased.Portugal was not under the spanish flag,the portuguese kept there own flag during that time.Philip governed Portugal and it's empire totaly separate from Spain.Johnn Dorian (talk) 01:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Why the map shows that Portugal belonged to spanish kingdom, and not the portugeuse empire? it has no sense that Portugal is and its empire not
"Although Spain and Portugal were united in a "personal union" between 1580 and 1640, a period now referred to as the Iberian union, the crowns of Portugal and Spain were kept separate: Philip was Philip II of Spain and Philip I of Portugal. Portugal remained a separate state[1] and the Portuguese empire was administered separately from the Spanish Empire"
Where does it say that Portugal or the portuguese empire were part of the spanish empire?Johnn Dorian (talk) 15:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
You can check it here --> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperio_Espa%C3%B1ol
I'd just like to add that you can't compare the union between Hannover and England to the unions that made up the Spanish empire. The fact is historians recognize a Spanish empire in this period, and if you were to discount unions of crowns it wouldn't exist at all until after the war of Spanish succession. Also I'd like it if Castile were seperated from Aragon in the map, as it is now it is very incorrect. Also northern Taiwan and the spice islands should be included.
http://www.colonialvoyage.com/spainmoluccas.html
http://www.colonialvoyage.com/remainspain.html ~Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.176.9 (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Here's the new map I propose: http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7371/spanishoverseasempireanhw5.png ~Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.176.9 (talk) 17:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The opening line clearly states that the Spanish Empire 'was the largest in history'- which is not true. Would it not be prudent to change this piece of inaccurate information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.250.218 (talk) 16:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I've attempted to rectify this error twice, however 82.186.100.114 seemed adamant that the Spanish Empire was the largest in history, despite the fact that it isn't and a reference was added to support this.--82.3.144.97 (talk) 16:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Well it says one of the largest, not the largest. Jandemorepeichen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.153.32.131 (talk) 19:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Why is Portugal in the map and not its empire. Was the empire independent during that time?. John. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 10:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes,but that is not true.Portugal and its empire were under the Spanish sovereign and therefore under Spanish rule, that is why Portugel rebelled in 1640 and Spain did not rebel. Portugal rebelled against Spain for some reason. We have quite a mistake here. Jandemorepeichen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 12:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
That is a mistake. Portugal and its Empire were under Spanish rule until 1640, when Portugal rebelled against Spain.You just have to see basic books about the history of Spain. But who cares, this is Wikipedia. Jan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 11:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Don't pay attention to Hat, he is clearly biased. He refuses to acknowledge the Spanish presence in Taiwan and the Spice Islands, and the border between Castile and Aragon (which as I have verified with more than one citation had the same status of autonomy as Portugal). But it's just as you say, it's Wikipedia so don't make a big deal of it, no one really takes this site seriously.~Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.218.58.130 (talk) 18:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, and this Hat happens to be a Portuguese. What a coincidence! Anyway, have no time right now. When I have time I will provide on-line sources to prove what any beginner in Spanish history knows, that Portugal and of course its colonies were part of the Spanish empire from 1580 to 1640, when the Portuguese successfully rebelled agaisnt Spain just after another rebellion had taken place in Catalonia with the same purpose. Having to prove these basic things makes one think what a serious academic place this is. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 08:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Ad hominem's like the ones you threw at me during our previous discussion here?
I have already cited various works backing the Spanish presence in Taiwan and the Spice Islands. I'll show some again this instance, probably only to be ignored yet again.
The Dutch and Spaniards established more lasting settlements, the Dutch at An-p'ing in southwestern Taiwan in 1624, the Spaniards in 1626 at Chi-lung in the north. Until 1646, when the Dutch seized the Spanish settlements, northern Taiwan was under Spanish domination, the south under Dutch control.
Britannica Online Academic Edition
The Spanish, not to be outdone by the Dutch, sent a fleet north from Manila, drove out the Japanese pirates, and established forts and a mission at Keelung and at Tamsui. The Dutch attempted to evict them, and in 1642 their second expedition eliminated the Spanish interests.
George H. Kerr, Far Eastern Survey, Institute of Pacific Relations.
Thus, after the Dutch had seized the main Spice Islands in 1605, the Spanish, based on the Philippines, hit back and recaptured Tidore and part of Ternate.
Peter Brightwell, The English Historical Review, Oxford University Press
Also I happened on something else in that article, which I am not going to discuss now, but I will include it none-the-less:
In 1580, after seizing the opportunity provided by a disputed succession, Spain also acquired the Portuguese monarchy and the overseas empire which went with it. This gave Spain an Atlantic seaboard much more extensive than the one she had previously possessed; and the importance of this acquisition in strategic terms can best be expressed by noting that the provisional decision to send the Armada against England was taken soon after Philip got back from Portugal; and that much of the preparatory work was done at Lisbon, whence the Armada eventually sallied.
I have more sources with similar quotes in a document I have been saving, but as I said I wont get into that now.
The first detachment formed the nucleus of the strong expedition which Don Pedro de Acuña, Governor of the Philippines, directed from Manila against the Moluccas in the spring of 1606. There the Dutch fort on Tidore and the western half of Ternate were recaptured by the Spanish.
Engel Sluiter, The Pacific Historical Review, University of California Press.
And last but not least, this very informative site which goes into greater detail on the case of the Spice Islands: http://www.colonialvoyage.com/spainmoluccas.html
~Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.218.58.130 (talk) 23:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not discussing that subject now, as I have pointed out in that post. I'm merely pointing out the territories which are missing (as I have verified earlier). I requested you to add them months ago. ~Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.218.58.130 (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't really requesting you to add them, but rather I was making sure you agreed with it. ~Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.218.58.130 (talk) 14:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, it will take 4 days till I can upload the map. Unless of course you would be so kind as to upload it yourself. I provided a link to the image above long ago, so it is there if you choose to do so. 65.218.58.130 (talk) 15:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by PSTool (talk • contribs) 15:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I think you have provided verifieble sources to include the Portuguese colonies in the Spanish empire, something I fiond incredible that some people want to ignore. So please, add those territories to the anachronous map. Otherwise it has a huge mistake. Jan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 11:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The Portuguese empire must not be included in the Spanish Empire because it was never a part of it. It was only a personal union, the portuguese remained formally independent as stipulated at the Cortes of Tomar in 1581, in which King Philip promessed to rule the portuguese and their empire totally separate from the spanish. In fact, it would be the later attempts by king Philip IV to break the rules of the union stipulated at the Cortes of Tomar that will cause the revolution of 1640. Johnn Dorian (talk) 12:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. According to that argument we could just as well justify not including the Spanish empire of the Hapsburgs at all, since it applied to all of its territories. Going back and looking at the previous discussion we had months ago, we have 2 sources explicitly stating that Portugal and its colonies were a part of it. You guys however have that same argument over and over. In fact, among the sources I have said I accumulated, I have one that states Spanish garrisons were present in Brazil (and if I recall correctly, the author was Portuguese or Brazilian). Anyways, right now I am very busy with finals. But perhaps during June I might have some time to spare for this. But I can tell you right now I have 14 sources.
And by the way, as Johnn Dorian says, even if you were to use that argument, Philip II's successor's didn't adhere to his policies towards Portugal at all. So even then you could say that argument is void when applied to the end of this period.
And I quote from Encyclopedia Britannica Academic Edition: Portuguese resentment against Spanish rule was exacerbated by the failure of these kings to visit Portugal, the appointment of Spaniards to Portuguese offices, the loss of trade as a consequence of Spain's foreign wars, and the levying of taxation to sustain these wars.65.218.58.130 (talk) 22:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 22:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This is a discussion about a map, and so there is only one type of "evidence" which will really settle the issue: maps. Given that I have provided maps of three authors that do not show Portuguese colonies during this time as Spanish [54], the onus is now on you to provide some maps that do. If you can, then at best all we have demonstrated is that there is a divergence of opinion in academia. In that case, the present state of the article is the best compromise, because the first map shows colonies that are unarguably Spanish, and later on in the article there is a map of the colonies of the Iberian Union. Another option could be a non-anachronous map of the Spanish Empire from a specific year outside of the period 1580-1640. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
If I find a source that explicitly states Portugal and its colonies were part of it, that is just as valid a source. Who are you to say what type of source is required?
Red I suggest a better compromise that I would agree with. Have two maps, one under the Bourbons and one under the Hapsburgs. The Hapsburg map should clearly show the entities that made up the Spanish Hapsburg empire as autonomous, with different colors, including most importantly the crowns of Castile, Aragon, and Portugal.
And if you don't agree with this, at least put up just the map of the empire at its height under the Bourbons (Charles III to be exact) until the issue is resolved (which will likely be never). Even the article itself states there is a great amount of debate as to what Hapsburg territories are to be included. 65.218.58.130 (talk) 23:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 23:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Sir I have looked at many books and it is in fact very hard to find a map specifically dated to this period. Furthermore, your maps aren't as impressive as you make them sound. At least one of your maps (I believe the one from the Penguin Atlas of Modern History) in fact suggests that the map could show Portuguese colonies, and thus could be either way. Another of yours spans much more than the period of union (1600-1700), and then you have contemporary maps of Brazil labelled as Portuguese, which isn't exactly very useful because it just shows Brazil. What if those same cartographers mapped Mexico or Peru as Castillian? Then it wouldn't contradict my point at all. 65.218.58.130 (talk) 23:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 23:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, there you go. One of them states having Portugal on the map is also correct, and the other shows Portugal and Spain as one political entity. 65.218.58.130 (talk) 00:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 00:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Felipe de España terminó siendo reconocido como rey de Portugal en las Cortes de Tomar de 1581. Mientras tanto, la idea de perder la independencia dio lugar a una revolución liderada por el Prior de Crato que llegó a proclamarse rey en 1580 y gobernó hasta 1583 en la isla Terceira de las Azores. El Prior de Crato terminaría derrotado debido principalmente al apoyo a Felipe de la burguesía y de la nobleza tradicional.
Para conseguir tales apoyos, Felipe se comprometió a mantener y respetar los fueros, costumbres y privilegios de los portugueses. Lo mismo sucedería con los que ocuparan los cargos de la administración central y local, así como con los efectivos de las guarniciones y de las flotas de Guinea y de la India. En las cortes estuvieron presentes todos los procuradores de las villas y ciudades portuguesas, a excepción de las de los de las Azores, fieles al rival pretendiente al trono derrotado por Felipe II, el Prior de Crato.
Este fue el principio de la unión personal que, sin grandes alteraciones, dominaría hasta cerca de 1620 (...).
(...) Los reinados de Felipe I y Felipe II de Portugal fueron relativamente pacíficos principalmente porque hubo poca interferencia española en los asuntos de Portugal, que seguía bajo la administración de gobiernos portugueses. A partir de 1630, ya en el reinado de Felipe III de Portugal, la situación tendió a una mayor intervención española y a un descontento creciente. Las numerosas guerras en las que España se vio envuelta, por ejemplo contra las Provincias Unidas (Guerra de los Ochenta Años) y contra Inglaterra, habían costado vidas portuguesas y oportunidades comerciales. Dos revueltas portuguesas habidas en 1634 y 1637 no llegaron a tener proporciones peligrosas, pero en 1640 el poder militar español se vio reducido debido a la guerra con Francia y la sublevación de Cataluña.
La gota que colmó el vaso fue la intención del Conde-Duque de Olivares en 1640 de usar tropas portuguesas contra los catalanes que se habían declarado súbditos del rey de Francia. El Cardenal Richelieu, mediante sus agentes en Lisboa, halló un líder en Juan II, Duque de Braganza, nieto de Catalina de Portugal. Aprovechándose de la falta de popularidad de la gobernadora Margarita de Saboya, Duquesa de Mantua, y de su secretario de estado Miguel de Vasconcelos, los líderes separatistas portugueses dirigieron una conspiración el 1 de diciembre de 1640. Vasconcelos, que sería defenestrado, fue prácticamente la única víctima. El 15 de diciembre de 1640 el Duque de Braganza fue aclamado rey como Juan IV, pero prudentemente se negó a ser coronado, consagrando la corona portuguesa a la Virgen María.
No. Portugal was just another kingdom under the Portuguese Habsburgs! And if the Spanish colonies were under the Crown of Castile, the colonies of Portugal were under the Crown of... Portugal! The Empire, was a Spanish-Portuguese Empire, not a Spanish one that devoured the Portuguese one. The Ogre (talk) 02:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The union of the Crowns of Aragon and Castile therefore led to neither a political and institutional union nor to an economic integration of the Iberian Peninsula.
Sorry Ogger,but your position is pure sophism. Because you are Portuguese you think the Portuguese case is special. Just pure sophism, as said. According to you Spain does not exist even now, taking into account the deep autonomy of oall Spanish regions that in some cases go beyond Federalism.Come on! Will you also say the sameabout Hollad, and Belgiumor most of Italy at the time? They were all also special cases, all are special cases, not just Portugal and its empire. Leave your Portuguese nationalism aside and be objective, for Gods`sake. anyway, thius si Wiki, with a lot of personal issues and the Anglo establishment with their continuous manipulation of history in relation to the Spànish.
By the way, why do not you erase also Portugal? Why do not you erase the entire Spanish empire. I am sure you can cherry pick links in the Net for any purpose. If you keep repeating the same lies, you know, as they say, they become true. How some people hate the real extent of the Spanish empire! But that is history folks, no matter what the century old envy agaisnt Spain tries again and again with their Anglo propagandists and numerous acolytes. And do not complain of my personal attackts. Anyone who knows the inside of European history and the century old Anglo, Portuguese, Dutch etc propaganda (due to the magnitude of the empire for cuenturies) knows too well how an article like this is pure propaganda again in the hands of said people. Newcomer.
Well, keep a cool head Newcomer. You may be right but that is no way ahead. I think the map must include the Portuguese colonies, stating that it was the result of a personal union 1580-1640 or explaining it somehow. But right now, to include only Portugal but not its dependent territories is an obvious contradiction that should be solved. But I leave you alone here. Do as you wish. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 09:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm Portuguese and therefore I may be biased. Anyway, for any Wikipedia reader, (1) it should be clear from the map that the Spanish Habsburgs once ruled over Portugal (and its colonies) and (2) that the Portuguese empire was not built under the Spanish nor remained with Spain after the 1640 rebellion in mainland Portugal. I suggest that the Portuguese colonies and trading posts appear on this map with a different colour and an appropriate caption. Velho (talk) 12:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I still say the best result is to have TWO maps: one under the Bourbons and another under the Hapsburgs. The Spanish Hapsburg map should clearly have all the crowns that made up their empire (Castile, Aragon, Portugal, Naples, etc) in different colors. Red, having Spanish Hapsburg realms in orange would be pointless because the entire map would be orange.
And I'm glad we have a Portuguese poster here who I can agree with. 65.218.58.130 (talk) 13:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 13:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Ogre I didn't even respond to what you said. That was someone else. And you kind of flew off the handle yourself with the post you made in response to mine, so no complaints there. I will reply to your latest post when I have time (right now I must go to a class). 65.218.58.130 (talk) 14:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 14:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The Ogre is right in that there is already a map showing the realms and colonies during the Iberian Union! I didn't notice that before. I think that makes this whole discussion a bit pointless... Let me make a new suggestion: change the order the maps. Put the map with the Iberian Union at the beginning of the article and the anachronous map where the other one presently is. Velho (talk) 16:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, first of all Ogre, you said Spain existed in its modern sense at this time. That is absolutely false. I have already proved that Aragon was in the same situation as Portugal (numerous times). The map you guys point to is very POV since it gives Portugal special treatment, it recognizes its autonomy and has no respect for the autonomy of Aragon or any of the other kingdoms in the Spanish Hapsburg domain. The map would be correct if it outlined these appropriately in the legend, or if the entire map was labeled with one color, which I'm sure you wouldn't want (obviously). You say that Aragon must not be included because it didn't have an overseas empire? That isn't a valid point I am afraid.
One thing is clear gentlemen, we can't have an anachronistic map of both empires because of how different they were. We need two, as I have said, because Spain underwent a drastic political and administrative change under the Bourbons.
May I ask Ogre why you are against having one map labeled as the empire of the Spanish Hapsburgs which clearly distinguishes the autonomy of all the crowns which composed it? 65.218.58.130 (talk) 17:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 17:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
May I ask what is fair about neglecting a historical fact, such as the autonomy of a territory? If Portugal is shown in a seperate color, there is no reason Aragon shouldn't. Tell me what is unreasonable about that? 65.218.58.130 (talk) 22:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 22:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
How about we add to the legend of the current map: "Not shown: Portuguese colonies during the period of the Iberian Union (1580-1640)." Reader can click on the Iberian Union link to see what that is all about. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 20:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
May I ask that you first comment on my suggestion? The only drawback I see is having to create a new map. One under the Bourbons, which wouldn't be hard to create (just erase the Spanish Netherlands, the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, the Duchy of Milan, etc. from one of the maps already uploaded). The Spanish Hapsburg map could be the current "Iberian Union" map, with Aragon in a seperate color, the other European crowns in other colors, northern Taiwan added under Castile, include the Spice Islands as governed by both Portugal and Castile (Ceuta as well, but it is too small to single out). I only have one problem with this approach, and that is the status of the smaller European states, namely Luxembourg and the Franche-Comté. 65.218.58.130 (talk) 22:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 22:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Don't you think the stark differences warrant two seperate maps? Each one can be anachronistic for their respective timeframes. Unless you can think of a way to incorporate both in the same map. For example the one now has Spain in orange, which is labeled as being a Hapsburg territory only (quite ridiculous). Not to mention the border with Aragon isn't included. On the other hand, maybe we could have Spain in red without distinguishing Aragon and Castile, but have a caption stating how Aragon and Castile were unified under the centralizing reforms of the Bourbons. Then have the remaining Spanish Hapsburg territories with a caption stating they were lost by 1714 or before then. 65.218.58.130 (talk) 01:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)Ed65.218.58.130 (talk) 01:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the Ogger on this one.An animation would be right. A Lusitan from Merida. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 09:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I think my solution is simpler, but if you guys want a go at an animation go ahead. It will be very hard though, a lot of territorial changes occurred. It would be a large file. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PSTool (talk • contribs) 22:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
And what do you think of my solution: adding the colonies in orange, and providing a caption explaining how Castile and Aragon were unified under the centralizing reforms of the Bourbons in 1716. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PSTool (talk • contribs) 01:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Portuguese colonies while under the Spanish Hapsburgs, so basicaly add the blue of the Iberian Union map into this map, but in orange. Then make Spain red, but provide a caption explaining the unification of Castile and Aragon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.218.58.130 (talk) 17:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Adding it in orange would be basically the same map we have now...it would still say it is a Spanish Hapsburg realm, except it would actually include the entire realm and not just part of it. Completely reasonable and the best solution at hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.218.58.130 (talk) 17:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
So you're saying Portugal was a seperate nation from its colonies? If Philip II was king of Portugal, did his sovereignty not extend to his kingdom's colonies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.218.58.130 (talk) 17:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I already have an account. PSTool (talk) 18:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I have provided maps with Portugal which is the same thing. There's a point to which your original research claims are completely unreasonable. PSTool (talk) 18:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
In fact it isn't original research at all. All I need to verify, to add in Portuguese colonies in orange, is that the Crown of Portugal was indeed a Spanish Hapsburg realm. No where does it say the source must be a map. In fact, many of these anachronistic maps wouldn't be found in published sources. Does that mean that all these maps are original research? Again, you're being completely unreasonable.PSTool (talk) 18:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Look, the bottom line is this: if you are suggesting Portuguese colonies should be present on the headline map of the Spanish Empire then produce maps that show this. The present red/orange distinction is actually really Europe vs the overseas colonies. Note "in Europe" and "overseas" in the legend. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 19:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
And on what basis do you include just the Spanish Hapsburg realms in Europe? By your own preference?PSTool (talk) 02:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't change the fact that all of Portugal falls into the category of Spanish Hapsburg realm. But fine, give me a couple of months and I'll bring you such maps.
I have added the statement to the legend that the colonies of Portugal are not shown on the map, without any claim that they were ever Spanish. The Portuguese Empire spanned 1415-1999, not 1415-1580 and 1640-1999. It did not cease to exist from 1580-1640. [55] [56] Histories of Brazil, Goa or Macau do not say that they were "Spanish" colonies for eighty years or that they changed hands from Portugal to Spain to Portugal in the way that Québec or Mauritius were French colonies and passed from French to British hands (and where, incidentally, they still speak the language of their ex-colonial masters). History is not going to be rewritten and readers confused. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 15:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
No, it didn't cease to exist. But it was a Spanish Hapsburg realm, just like the Burgundian territories, the Duchy of Milan, and Aragon and Castile themselves. What you have on this map is hypocritical, and is is giving Portugal special treatment. Don't tell me I'm trying to rewrite history, what a nerve. Learn to respect other's arguments. I will look for those maps, and this time I will search Spanish sources as well. PSTool (talk) 15:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
And I would like to upload this map for now: http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7371/spanishoverseasempireanhw5.png
Let me know if you have any issue with it.PSTool (talk) 15:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Except you couldn't do that because of the maps I provided showing Portugal in that manner. And as for Taiwan, the Dutch map is like that also. And it isn't all of northern Taiwan, just the tip. I don't see you complaining about the "Iberian Union" map showing all of western India as Portuguese, plus large swathes of African coastline. EDIT: Okay, it is all of northern Taiwan. But again, doesn't change what I said about those other maps. PSTool (talk) 16:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
What is hypocritical is to include every Spanish Hapsburg realm but Portugal (well, the entirety of it). And if you are willing to change those maps, then I will agree to make the changes you suggest. I would also like to raise another issue: the Portuguese Empire map includes "claims' and "areas of influence", while those for the map of the Spanish Empire were removed (Pacific Northwest, parts of Brazil). In fact if you were to go by claims you could include a lot of territories. Frankly I think they shouldn't be included. PSTool (talk) 16:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I reduced it by a bit more than half: http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1107/spanishoverseasempireanoi8.png PSTool (talk) 17:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I was just pointing out that other maps had glaring defects (while we were on the subject), which were much more important than something so minor as northern Taiwan being in red. I'm not trying to bargain anything. As for the sources, I listed a ton a few days ago. They even have a museum in Taiwan dedicated to one of them, and a cape in the vicinity has a Spanish name as a legacy to their presence in the area.PSTool (talk) 03:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I changed the caption of the flag [57] for the information on Talk:Spanish_Empire#The_Flag. The actual flag of the empire would probably be this banner on 1580-1700 and this other banner on 1700-1759. I'm not sure about uploading them and using them under a ((Non-free use rationale))
. Someone should provide a free-use version for them, or find the ones already used on wikipedia --Enric Naval (talk) 10:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Various alterations to the Dutch Empire map have been made, with no sources provided for these alterations. Would appreciate comment on the Talk:Dutch Empire page. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
As the one above me has said, we are having a dispute. He claims this site is an unreliable reference despite the fact that they list where they got every single piece of information from. http://www.colonialvoyage.com/ (Red4tribe (talk) 23:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC))
The map now makes reference to the Iberian Union, instead of inlcluding directly those territories. Read the Iberian Union article. If that is not Portuguese-centric I do not know a thing. I think this part of the article is being ruined by some users with a lot of Portuguse propaganda in their minds. No wonder that with a few more contributions Spain is going to end up having been a colony of Portugal. Risible. All risible. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 09:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Please let's get it started. I will do an example with Portugal, Castille and Aragon. Ok 3 kingdoms separated. Now call Castille+Aragon Spain. Doesn't we have Portugal AND Spain? So, obvioulsy, we have a Portuguese Empire (Portugal) and a Spanish Empire (Castille+Aragon). I don't know exactly when the definition of Spain being Castille+Aragon was "established" (probably around Charles I of Spain), as before that Spain meant the same as Iberia, but even if in the times of the Iberian Union they used "Spanish Empire" in the same meaning as we use "Iberian Empire" (I think they did) we can't use now Spanish Empire for that "Iberian Empire" because it now have a different meaning, for the Spanish Empire now we are reffering to the Empire of "modern Spain". Anyway an Iberian Empire did not exist because the Portuguese and Castillian (only Castille and its colonies) Empire were administrated in an independent way.Câmara (talk) 12:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The map is not correct:
1) In case of showing only the strictly CASTILLE´s possesions, it´s recommended to show the real viceroyalty of Peru, wich was over the most part of the actual Brazil during the Spanish Empire
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virreinato_del_Peru ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viceroyalty_of_Peru ;
2) It´s recommended to show in other color the Iberian Union ( http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperio_espa%C3%B1ol , http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imp%C3%A9rio_espanhol ), wich had a very important historical integration: military, economic and politic were included; resulting in a homogeneous nation and today still being a present hope-idea. Here are some wiki references of the past union:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberismo , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberism , http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperio_espa%C3%B1ol , http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imp%C3%A9rio_Portugu%C3%AAs , http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperio_Hispano-Portugu%C3%A9s,
and maybe the most important (history of Felipe I of Portugal and second (II) of Spain):
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Rey_de_Portugal
"El gobierno mediante Consejos instaurado por su padre seguía siendo la columna vertebral de su manera de dirigir el estado. El más importante era el Consejo de Estado del cual el rey era el presidente. El rey se comunicaba con sus Consejos principalmente mediante la consulta, un documento con la opinión del Consejo sobre un tema solicitado por el rey. Asimismo existían seis Consejos regionales: el de Castilla, de Aragón, de Portugal, de Indias, de Italia y de Países Bajos y ejercían labores legislativas, judiciales y ejecutivas"
-> GOOGLE TRANSLATION (sorry, no time)
"The government through councils established by his father remained the backbone of his way to lead the state. The most important was the State Council which the king was the president. The king was communicated with their Councils mainly through consultation, a document with the Council's view on a topic requested by the king. Also there were six regional councils: that of Castile, Aragon, Portugal, India, Italy and Netherlands and efforts exerted legislative, judicial and executive."
(POLITIC AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRATION)
and
"Felipe II también gustaba de contar con la opinión de un grupo selecto de consejeros, formado por el catalán Luis de Requesens, el castellano duque de Alba, el vasco Juan de Idiáquez, el cardenal borgoñés Antonio Perrenot de Granvela y los portugueses Ruy Gómez de Silva y Cristóbal de Moura repartidos por diferentes oficinas o siendo miembros del Consejo de Estado."
-> GOOGLE TRANSLATION (sorry, no time)
"Philip II also liked to have the opinion of a select group of advisers, consisting of the Catalan Luis de Requesens, the Castilian Duke of Alba, basque Juan de Idiaquez, Cardinal borgoñés Antoine Perrenot de Granvelle and the Portuguese Ruy Gomez de Silva and Cristobal de Moura spread by different offices or being members of the State Council. "
(POLITIC AND SOCIAL INTEGRATION)
and
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalla_de_la_Isla_Terceira ; http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitio_de_Ostende ;
"La flota española estaba mandada por el gran marino militar Álvaro de Bazán, Marqués de Santa Cruz y Capitán General de las Galeras de España. Mandaba dos galeones del rey, 10 naos guipuzcoanas, ocho portuguesas y castellanas, 10 urcas flamencas y una levantisca, así como cinco pataches. Pero dos de las urcas desaparecieron en la noche del 24 de julio, tres naves se demoraron en Lisboa, la levantisca llegó tarde y uno de los pataches había sido apresado, por lo que, en el momento del combate, sólo tenía 25 bajeles de guerra.
El mando de la flota francesa lo tenía Felipe Strozzi, hijo de Pedro Strozzi, Mariscal de Francia, y le secundaba Charles de Brisac, Conde de Brisac, también hijo de Mariscal de Francia. Se encontraba en ella D. Francisco de Portugal, conde de Vinioso. Llevaban 60 navíos con 6.000 a 7.000 infantes y arbolaban la bandera blanca con la flor de lis dorada.
..En marzo de 1582 se refuerza la isla de San Miguel con cuatro naos guipuzcoanas que lleva Rui Díaz de Mendoza, y quedan a cargo del almirante portugués Pedro Peijoto de Silva, que estaba allí con dos galeones y tres carabelas.
En mayo nueve naos francesas atacan San Miguel. El ataque es rechazado por las naos guipuzcoanas, que tuvieron 20 muertos..
..Por parte de los atacantes, los tercios del Imperio español estaban compuestos por soldados reclutados en todos los dominios de los Habsburgo, españoles y portugueses de la Unión Ibérica, italianos, alemanes, valones, suizos, borgoñones, flamencos leales a España.."
-> GOOGLE TRANSLATION (sorry, no time)
"The Spanish fleet was commissioned by the large marine military Alvaro de Bazan, Marquis of Santa Cruz and Captain-General of the Galeras Spain. Mandar two galleons of the king, 10 naos guipuzcoanas, eight Portuguese and Spanish, 10 urcas Flemish and a levantisca, as well as five Patache. But two of the urcas disappeared on the night of July 24, three ships were delayed in Lisbon, levantisca arrived late and one of the Patache had been arrested, so that at the time of combat, only had 25 bajel war.
The command of the French fleet was what Philip Strozzi, son of Peter Strozzi, Marshal of France, and he supported Charles de Brisac, Conde de Brisac, also son of Marshal of France. He was in it D. Francisco de Portugal, Count of Vinioso. Llevaban 60 ships with 6,000 to 7,000 infants and trees the white flag with golden fleur-de-lis.
.. In March 1582 reinforces the island of San Miguel with four naos guipuzcoanas leading Rui Diaz de Mendoza, and left by the Portuguese admiral Peijoto Pedro de Silva, who was there with two galleons and three caravels.
In May naos nine French attack San Miguel. The attack was repulsed by the naos guipuzcoanas, who had 20 deaths ..
.. On the part of the attackers, the Spanish-thirds of the Empire were made up of soldiers recruited in all domains of the Habsburgs, Spanish and Portuguese Union of Ibero, Italians, Germans, Walloons, Swiss, Burgundians, flamingos loyal to Spain .. "
(MILITARY INTEGRATION) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.44.137.116 (talk) 01:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The new map that was just put up is really bad quality, and that's why I reverted it. I am not disputing it's accuracy, but the quality is definitely not good. Kman543210 (talk) 16:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
It says from to 1898, on the anglo-spanish war and lose of Cuba, Philippines, Guam, Puerto Rico and etc. The date isn´t correct because the Western Sahara was leaved from Spain in 1976 and Ecuatorial Guinea on 1968. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Ecuatorial http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1hara_Occidental
I proceed to change it to the last date (1976). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emiliojcp (talk • contribs) 16:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't aware that people say that the British Empire still exists today. But regarding the maps, see the 2 side by side below. The color on the one on the left looks blotchy, and there is a faint color line that goes down through Brazil. It just looks blurry and a lower resolution than the one on the right. Kman543210 (talk) 02:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC) thumb|350px|leftthumb|350px|right
Having looked at
Therefore I disagree with the proposed new map, because:
As far as I'm concerned, the present map is absolutely fine. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 12:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Emilio. He haspresented sources, the ohters just opinions. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 08:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
you guys are all wrong. brazilian states of santa catarina and rio grande do sul were effectivelly occupied by spain. those should be included in the map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.216.0.158 (talk) 08:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
The map shows that the Crown of Aragon its delimited on white from Castille. That division never happened, at least from 1469. Before that date, didnt exist Spain. Spain was created with the fusion of Castille and Aragon. I recomend to change the map for the last. Undo please to last contrib Emiliojcp (talk) 03:21, 14 June 2008 (UTC)emiliojcp
I support your changes. You have demonstrated more knowledge on Spanish history than some other users here who seem to stick to some kind of weird agendas without respecting Wiki rules and the sources that you are provinding. Go ahead and change the maps.Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 09:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
By the way, according to some simplistic and child-like comments here, I guess we have the right to erase Alaska as part of the US, right?. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 09:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I had a look at reference (1) at the end of the article. Looks like an amateur website apparently claiming to be authored by a Finnish person with an MA in Politics.
Hmm.
This is hardly mainstream, or peer-reviewed material.
Couldn't find a reference to Parker anywhere on it either. (With apparently 32 books to his name, Parker is not exactly a minor historian).
I mean, if a reference of this quality is OK, I could write my own piece under a pseudonym, big it up on a few websites, and then quote from it to my heart's content.
That would be freedom of speech, alright, but it would also be WP:OR, just jazzed up a bit to disguise it.
What do you all think?
Mariya Oktyabrskaya (talk) 04:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
1. It is unclear and overall inaccurate to put one part of the Spanish empire in red, and another in orange. The distinction between the "Habsburg realms" and the overseas territories is not relevant to an article on the "Spanish Empire". All other Wikipedia articles on "Empires" use the same colors for all territories, no matter what administrative differences there were.
2. The Line separating the former kingdom of Aragon (including Cataluña, Valencia and the Balearic Islands) from the rest of Spain is equally irrelevant.
3. The map should also include North Borneo or Sabah which was under Spanish control in the 19th century. (The Philippines still claims this territory, which was part of the former Spanish East Indies). See Sabah Dispute
JCRB (talk) 13:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 12:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I have incorporated a serie of arguments in commons:Image talk:Spanish Empire.png supported with several sources, including international treaties, but they are in Spanish language due to its great length and my little skill and knowledge of English language. It is a material that could be taken into estimate, but I dare not translate if I use inadequate terms. However, I summarize the main points here:
Trasamundo (talk) 23:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
The Oger will go to all lengths and interpret all just the way he wants to avoid Portugal and its empire in the same map as the Spanish empire. Sad. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.12.158.241 (talk) 19:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
First of all: greetings Ogre! We haven't talked in many months. Second of all, and briefly, about your position, that the PE cannot be included because the concept of "Spain" did not exist ca. 1600: If that's so, then there's no reason for a "Spanish Empire", or "British Empire", or "History of Germany", or any such article that "anachronistically" covers periods of history that fall before or after the specifically named polity. For example, we'd require an "English Empire" article for the period before 1707, and then, for the period after 1801 we'd need a "United Kingdom Empire" article. SamEV (talk) 00:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) "It is impossible to represent both points of view on the same map, isn't it? Something can't be coloured in and not coloured in at the same time." No, Pat. What I and many others have proposed and continue to propose is for the two empires to be colored differently and for the caption to mention the substantial Spanish control exercised in Portugal from 1580 to 1640. SamEV (talk) 21:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
No, no, it's a significant view, from important scholars, Pat; so WP:UNDUE doesn't apply. Nice try, though. SamEV (talk) 22:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
After reading this paragraph written by The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick: Reliable sources also say Brazil, and the Portuguese Empire, was administered separately to the Spanish. Which is the reason I insist on it. Also, I ask you this - what happened to the Portuguese colonies when the union dissolved in 1640? If Brazil etc was "Spanish", why did it revert to Portuguese rule without even a fight there?; I understand that Pat Ferrick: a) has not read the discussion from commons:Image talk:Spanish Empire.png, or b) did not understand the discussion from commons or c) has not wanted to understand the discussion of commons (I don't hope this latter).
A Pat Ferrick's mistake is that he confuses the reality with the utility. Distinguish a Spanish State and a Portuguese State as separate and independent countries is useful for releasing and it is easily understandable to the reader to follow the historic evolution. However, in reality, this conception is correct since the eighteenth century, but is not quite proper for the XVI-XVIIth centuries. I have released reliable sources about how Spain was an ideological aspiration of recovery from the Visigoth and Roman Hispania for contemporaries of the XVI-XVIIth centuries, and therefore is wanted to include Portugal. The important issue to emphasize is that European chancelleries acknowledged Spain as a global power, and not as a collection of independent kingdoms. In fact, there was not an ambassador for the Crown of Aragon, nor an ambassador for the Crown of Castile, but there was a Monarca Católico's ambassador, the Spanish ambassador, and when Portugal joined the Catholic Monarchy, did not retained an independent special ambassador.
If you say that Reliable sources also say Brazil, and the Portuguese Empire, was administered separately to the Spanish, you are insinuating that only Portugal had a different administration in respect of a Spanish government, and if I follow this misconception, for example in Aragon, there was not a distinct administration, and therefore, you do not know the administrative reality of the Catholic Monarchy, and this is the wrong position that displays the map m:Image: Iberian Union Empires.png. However, if the sentence would have written like this: Reliable sources also say Brazil, and the Portuguese Empire, was administered separately in the Spanish Administration, it indicates that Portugal, such as Aragon, as Castilla, as Flanders, had its own administration; but they were not independent, since territorial councils were settled in Madrid as the Council of Portugal, and above all the councils, was the Councils of State and of War, which encompass the entire Monarchy. In this way, there was a Spanish government (other than that specifically Castilian) for the entire monarchy, which was included in Portugal.
And here, the second error of Pat, he confuses Castilian with Spanish. While the burden of the monarchy was Castilian, there was an administration in Castilla which did not affect the other territories of the monarchy. When Pat Ferrick says Also, I ask you this - what happened to the Portuguese colonies when the union Dissolved in 1640? If Brazil and so was "Spanish", why did it revert to Portuguese rule without even a fight there?, we could talk also about Ceuta. But I want that you understand that Brazil, like India and other Portuguese territories were Spanish territories, because they belonged to the King of Spain, and when they rose up and stopped belonging to the king of Spain, they ceased to be Spanish. I put in commons a book of Portuguese diplomatic treaties where it appears that the ruler of Portugal was the King of Espanha. The problem is terminological, we can not say that Brazil belonged to Castilla, because Portugal has never been Castile, and did not belong to the administration of Castile, but Brazil as Portugal was Spanish for 60 years, as part of its polisinodial administration.
I have already tried this issue with The Ogre, and we agreed to establish an animated map, so, I do not understand to continue spinning about the same issue without taking into account the profitable discussion about the map in commons. It is true that we have communicated in Spanish and Portuguese for ease, but with the Google translator I do not think that there were much problem in reading that discussion. But of course, it is easier to use arguments as valid as Brazil was never a Spanish colony. End of story, than engaging in reading the historical sources of the XVIth and XVIIth centuries, as I added. Trasamundo (talk) 17:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I will try to offer an analytical perspective from my limited English.
I think sometimes that Pat Ferrick, whom I see great presence in this discussion page, looks like a photocopier without considering consequences of what has made.
If we take a paragraph of Pat, we read: «Because it's an article about the Spanish Empire, not the Habsburg realms. The quotes I provide clearly demonstrate that historians distinguish the Spanish Empire from the Portuguese Empire during the time of the union of the crowns. Ergo, the Portuguese Empire should not appear as part of the Spanish Empire on a map.» I reply: I do not understand the difference between Spanish and Habsburg Empire realms, it's like to differentiate between Angevine Empire and House of Plantagenet realms. Afterwards, in the next sentence I would have said: The quotes I provide distinguish the Spanish Empire from the Portuguese Empire during the time of the union of the crowns but they did not explain in detail the structure of the Habsburg Monarchy ergo it is necessary to provide sources that indicate how the monarchy was constituted to make a map accordingly.
The following paragraph is even more surprising: «Whatever the technical details of the union of the crowns, historians distinguish Spain v Portugal and Spanish Empire vs Portuguese Empire. You are free to deny the usage of the term "Spain" during this era in spite of its usage by historians, but thankfully one of the founding principles of WP is that editors' own original research is not allowed to pollute articles».
And at another place he repeated: «Note that also historians - English language historians, at least - refer to "Spain" and "Portugal" in this period. They don't split hairs about the nature of the relationships between the various kingdoms» y «The two countries were not formally united, and it was specifically agreed that the two colonial empires should remain administratively separate».
Well, if we adopt that there are two realms: the Kingdom of Portugal and Spain (??), this viewpoint indicated that each kingdom had its own jurisdiction-independent administration, which is false (there is no single independent jurisdiction for Spain), this viewpoint does not explain how a Council of Portugal could exist in the Court of Madrid, however, when Felipe II was king of England there was not a Council of England in the Court of Madrid, because England was a kingdom completely independent, this viewpoint does not explain how the king of Spain appears as ruler of Portugal in relation to other nations in international treaties, nor why the Dutch attacked Brazilian territories of a separate Portuguese Empire.
Pat Ferrick relates a period of Spanish history and does not care to analyze the political structure at the time, with the exception of Portugal, which is the only territory that seems to be having the privilege of this analysis, others not. Well, that's the logic of Pat, worrying an area particularly and ignoring everyone else. If some historians do not split hairs about the nature of the relationships between the various kingdoms, Pats said amen and finish of the discussion.
That viewpoint is not logical, since we will find that a serie of sources fit for an article, and for another article of the same epoch and place, other different sources fit to it, and it seems that no matter whether the issues might be contradicted, so, I want to say that it does not seem to be coherent to demonstrate that in an article the Spanish monarchy included in its structure to Portugal, and in another article that the Portuguese empire was not forming a part of this monarchy, or even to say that Portugal was forming a part of the Spanish monarchy, but not the Portuguese empire. Anyway, all of this is very strange, and I wonder why it would not be permitted to expand and complete the Spanish Empire with legal and administrative input about how to rule? Were not ruled the territories?. It seems so scarce adducingthat the overseas empires of both nations remained separate.
But I am going to penetrate into this matter about the constitution of the Spanish Monarchy, and subsequently about its empire. First I will take the relation between Castile and Aragon. In Historia de España directed by es:Manuel Tuñón de Lara Ed. Labor, ISBN 84-335-9425-7 (page 201), places us in the es:Alteraciones of Aragon:
«Las Alteraciones de Aragón ponen de relieve los límites del poder real fuera del territorio castellano, así como los sentimientos de los aragoneses, que consideraban a los castellanos como extranjeros. El poderío de Carlos V y, mucho más, el de Felipe II es impresionante y, sin embargo, llama la atención la falta de coherencia de aquel cuerpo inmenso, formado por varias naciones que no tienen la imprensión de pertenecer a una misma comunidad. El lazo lo constituye el monarca, asesorado por los Consejos territoriales: Consejo Real o Consejo de Castilla, Consejo de Indias, Consejo de Aragón, Consejo de Italia (separado del anterior en 1555), Consejo de Flandes, Consejo de Portugal... Existen organismos comunes: el Consejo de Guerra, el Consejo de Estado, pero que están vueltos más bien hacia los asuntos diplomáticos y militares.La gran política, la política exterior, es cosa exclusiva del soberano; a los pueblos solo se les exige que contribuyan con los impuestos» (The Alterations of Aragon emphasize the limits of the royal power out of the Castilian territory, as well as the feelings of the Aragonese, who were considering the Castilians as foreigners. The power of Carlos V and, much more, that of Philip II is impressive and, nevertheless, it calls the attention the lack of coherence of that immense body, formed by several nations that do not have the imprensión of belonging to the same community . The link is constituted by the monarch advised by the territorial Councils: Royal Council or Council of Castile, Council of The Indies, Council of Aragon, Council of Italy (separated from the previous one in 1555), Council of Flanders, Council of Portugal... Common organisms exist: the Council of War, the Council of State, but they are turned rather towards the diplomatic and military matters. The great politics, the foreign policy, is an exclusive issue of the sovereign one; only is demanded from the peoples that they contribute with the taxes). And this is not an original research. Every kingdom had its particular administration, and this was not an exclusive matter of the Portuguese territory. Aragon was composed by several united kingdoms and it did not lose its jurisdictions (Fueros) nor its institutions up to the Decretos de Nueva Planta in the 18th century, and it did not have colonies in America. Then, why is indicated so stubbornly that Portugal had its own administration and Aragon did not have it?, why this inequality?.
Nevertheless, there is a terminological confusion between Castile and Spain, and there is an appellant contrasts of Portugal opposite to Spain. Pat pronounced: «Historians do not go to great lengths to spell out his full title, or to describe "Spain" as a patchwork of substates, one of which is Portugal from 1580-1640. Historians use the terms "Spain" and "Portugal", "Spanish Empire" and "Portuguese Empire". The article should follow the standards of the academic community, not the original research of well intentioned authors who wish to be "absolutely correct". Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."». Well then, continuing this logic: if certain historians use the term catalano-Aragonese Crown to refer to the Crown of Aragon, and there exist other historians who justify their opposition to this term, then, according to Pat Ferrick's reasoning, there would be necessary to use irrationally catalano-Aragonese Crown, because he has read it just like that, and ending of the discussion.
What I wonder is how it is possible to justify a terminology in sources that they do not treat specifically a subject matter of administrative and organizational type, this is like to try to justify knowledge of botany in very good books of kitchen recipes. The reliables sources that Pat has presented, seem that they offer a good information of economy, trade, religion, conflicts and battles, but they limp on having explained conscientiously the organizational structure, but this does not want to say that there should be no books nor historians that explain that issues.
In the bookEspaña en Europa by John Huxtable Elliott and Rafael Benítez Sánchez-Blanco, University of Valencia (2002), there is talk of a composite monarchy ( but not independent kingdoms), in which each constituent kingdom retained its identity, pages 79-80 «Una parecida buena voluntad a aceptar disposiciones constitucionales e institucionales ya existentes había informado la política de Felipe II ante la unión de Castilla con Portugal. Siguiendo el tradicional estilo de los Habsburgo, esta unión de coronas de 1580 fue otra unión dinástica, aeque principaliter, cuidadosamente planificada para asegurar la supervivencia de la identidad portuguesa, así como la de su imperio» (A similar good will to accept constitutional and institutional already existing dispositions had informed Philip II's policy before the union of Castile with Portugal. Following the traditional style of the Hapsburg, this union of Crowns of 1580 was another dynastic union, aeque principaliter, carefully planned to assure the survival of the Portuguese identity, as well as that of its empire). Hereby, the Portuguese empire ceased to exist during this never swindles (1580-1640) and become subsumed into the Castilian kingdom ever (and his(her,your) colonies), but I will indicate later that both territories Castile and Portugal, with Aragon belonged to the Spanish Monarchy, with its Empire.
More specifically, Elliot reports of what the Catholic Monarchy consists: page 73:
«Dado que el absentismo real era un rasgo ineludible de las monarquías compuestas, era probable que el primer y más importante cambio que experimentase un reino o provincia anexionado a otro más poderoso que él, fuese la marcha de la corte, la pérdida de a categoría de capital de su ciudad principal y el cambio de monarca por un gobernador o virrey. Ningún virrey podía compensar la ausencia del monarca en estas sociedades de la Europa moderna, donde su presencia se consideraba decisiva. Sin embargo, la solución española de designar un consejo compuesto por consejeros autóctonos al servicio del rey palió en gran medida el problema, al proporcionar un foro en el que las opiniones y agravios locales pudieran manifestarse en la corte y el conocimiento local fuese tenido en cuenta a la hora de determinar una política. A un nivel más alto, el Consejo de Estado, compuesto en su mayor parte, pero no siempre en exclusiva, por consejeros castellanos, se mantenía en reserva como última instancia, al menos nominal, de toma de decisiones y de coordinación política atenta a los intereses de la monarquía en su totalidad. Esto no existía en la monarquía compuesta inglesa del siglo XVII» (Since that the royal absenteeism was an unavoidable feature of the compound monarchies, it was probable that the first one and more important change that was experiencing a kingdom or province annexed to other one more powerful that it, it was the develop of the court, the loss of to category of the capital of its principal city and the monarch's change for a governor or viceroy. No viceroy could compensate the absence of the monarch in these societies of the modern Europe, where his presence was considered to be decisive. Nevertheless, the Spanish solution of designating an council composed by autochthonous counselors to the service of the king relieved to a great extent the problem, on having provided a forum in which the opinions and local damages could demonstrate in the court and the local knowledge was had in account at the moment of determining a policy. To a higher level, the Council of State, composed in its most, but not always in sole right, for Castilian counselors, it was kept in reserve as last instance, at least nominally, of making of decisions and of political coordination observant to the interests of the monarchy in its entirety. This did not exist in the compound English monarchy of the 17th century). With regard to the above mentioned, Pat Ferrick has affirmed, with respect to Portugal: It was a union of the crowns, like James VI of Scotland and I of England, not a "takeover"; nevertheless, Elliot denies this similarity, probably Pat, you also do personal research. Also, it would be necessary to ask if Portugal was not forming a part of Spain, according to Pat Ferrick's conception, pero how we explain that the Council of State was dealing with the whole monarchy including Portugal?.
Elliot also presents the origin of the confusion between Castile and Spain, page 78: «Los castellanos, al poseer un imperio en las Indias y al reservarse los beneficios para sí mismos, aumentaron extraordinariamente su riqueza y poder en relación con sus otros reinos y provincias. [...] La posesión de un imperio de ultramar por una parte de la unión de la unión hizo que esa misma unión pensase en términos de dominación y subordinación, contrarios a la concepción que alentaba la supervivencia de una monarquía compuesta unida aeque principaliter.
Allí donde una parte componente de la monarquía compuesta no es sólo obviemente superior a las otras en poder y recursos, sino que también se comporta como si lo fuese, las otras partes sentirán naturalemente que sus identidades se encuentran cada vez más bajo amenaza. Esto es lo que ocurrió a la Monarquía española del siglo XVI y principios del XVII, cuando los reinos y provincias no castellanos se vieron en clara y creciente desventaja con respecto a Castilla» (Castilians, on having possessed an empire in the Indies and on having saved the benefits for themselves, increased extraordinarily their wealth and power in relation with their other kingdoms and provinces. [...] The possession of an empire of overseas on one hand of the union of the union did that the same union was thinking about terms of domination and subordination, opposite to the conception that it was encouraging the survival of a compound united monarchy aeque principaliter. There where a part component of the compound monarchy is not only obviously superior to others in power and resources, but also, it behaves as if it were, other parts will feel certainly that their identities are increasingly under threat. This is what happened to Spanish Monarchy of the 16th century and beginning of the XVIIth, when the kingdoms and provinces not Castilians were in clear and increasing disadvantage with regard to Castile).
And also shows that Portugal was part of the Spanish monarchy, page 190 «Cataluña, Portugal, Nápoles y Sicilia eran sociedades gobernadas por control remoto desde Madrid, y de modo más inmediato por los virreyes, que no podían compensar plenamente la ausencia de la persona regia. Todas ellas resultaron víctimas de las exigencias fiscales y militares de la Corona española» (Catalonia, Portugal, Naples and Sicily were societies governed by remote control from Madrid, and in a more immediate way for the viceroys, who could not compensate fullly the absence of the royal person. All of them they turned out to be victims of the fiscal requirements and military men of the Spanish Crown). page. 88 ¿Cómo se mantuvieron cohesionadas durante tanto tiempo uniones tan artificiales en origen y tan flexibles en organización? La contigüidad, como afirmaban sus contemporáneos, era indudablemente una gran ayuda, si bien resultó insuficientemente a la hora de mantener a Portugal dentro de la Monarquía española (How were such artificial unions kept united during so much time in origin and so flexible in organization? The contiguity, as its contemporary ones were affirming, it was undoubtedly a great help, though it proved insufficiently at the moment of retaining Portugal inside the Spanish Monarchy); page 182 «Durante 1640, las clases dirigentes en Cataluña y Portugal se mostraron dispuestas a apoyar una revuelta contra la autoridad real o participar en ella. Las precondiciones de este propósito parecen hallarse tanto en la estructura constitucional de la Monarquía española, con su incómoda combinación de gobierno centralizado y realeza absentista como en la politica seguida por Madrid en los veinte años precedentes» (During 1640, the leader classes in Catalonia and Portugal proved to be ready to support a revolt against the royal authority or to take part in it. The previous conditions of this intention seem to be situated so much in the constitutional structure of the Spanish Monarchy, with its inconvinient combination of centralized government and royalty absentee as in the politics followed by Madrid since twenty previous years).
I want that anyone understand that there was no opposition between the kingdom and Portugal and the kingdom of Spain during 1580-1640, but that the kingdom of Portugal, the kingdom of Castile, the kingdom of Aragon ... belonged to the Spanish Realms, which was recognized as an international entity but lacked a strong central administration. Each kingdom remain administratively separate, and in this way, Brazil or Goa were a colonies of Portugal, which belonged to the King of Espanha [60], As the sovereign of the spanish realms. Pat argues that as the overseas empires of both nations remained separate therefore this means that they were both two independent countries, but I already have mentioned how Tuñón de Lara indicates that the Aragonese saw the Castilians as foreigners. In relation to this, again Elliot in La Europa dividida, ISBN 84-323-0116-7, focuses on the Castilian term, since in the end Castilians had the territories in America, not the Aragonese, and when he uses Spanish, he refers to the whole monarchy as a whole: (page 284): «Se acordó también que las instituciones políticas y representativas de Portugal deberían permanecer intactas, y que los castellanos tampoco debían ser autorizados a participar en la vida comercial de Portugal ni en la de su imperio. Estas concesiones de Felipe significaban que, aunque la península ibérica se había por fin unido en persona de un solo monarca, Portugal continuaba siendo incluso más que Aragón y cataluña, un Estado semiindependiente, asociado, no incorporado, a la Corona de Castilla [...] [Felipe] Consiguió también, y sin lucha, un segundo imperio imperio ultramarino: la India y África portuguesas, las Molucas y Brasil. Esto significaba un enorme aumento de poder para la monarquía española, la cual aparecía ante sus rivales como un coloso invencible montado encima del mundo» (It was also agreed that the political and representative institutions of Portugal should remain intact, and that Spanish should not be authorized to participate neither in the commercial life of Portugal, nor in that of its empire. These grants of Philip meant that, although the Iberian peninsula were finally joined into a single person of an alone monarch, Portugal continued to be, even more than Aragon and Catalonia, a semiindependent, associated, unincorporated to the Crown of Castile [...] [Philip] got also, and without fight, a second overseas empire: the Portuguese India and Africa, the Moluccas and Brazil. This meant a huge increase in power for the Spanish monarchy, which appeared before his rivals as an invincible colossus mounted over the world).
From this issue, we extract that the Portuguese empire continued existing, its language, its administration, but it was not independent, but a part of the realms of Spain as Spain was understood in the epoch of the 17th century. John H . Elliott refers this in Spain and its world, 1500-1700, but Pat seems disagreed because in the page 235 this author distinguishes the Spanish and Portuguese Empires. Well then, in a book quoted by Pat Asia in the Making of Europe: A Century of Advance (Donald F. Lach, Edwin J. Van Kley) indicates in its page 22, that Portugal belonged to the Spanish Crown: «Before the end of the year, the secession of Portugal from the Spanish crown had been proclaimed and at Lisbon the Bragança duke was crowned King John IV».
Enrique San Miguel Pérez España y sus Coronas. Un concepto político en las últimas voluntades de los Austrias hispánicos. Cuadernos de Historia del Derecho nº 3. págs. 253-270. Servicio de Publicaciones Universidad Complutense de Madrid, quotes Philip II's will (and others kings) [page 264]: «que los dichos reynos de la Corona de Portugal ayan siempre de andar y anden juntos y unidos con los reynos de la Corona de Castilla, sin que jamás se puedan dividir ni apartar» (That the above mentioned kingdoms of the Crown of Portugal exist always of going and go together and joined with the kingdoms of the Crown of Castile, without they could never divide nor separate ).
I already indicated that Castile was not the same thing that Spain, I will pass to reflect what the contemporaries of the 17th century understood on what it was Spain. es:Juan de Palafox y Mendoza quotes in Juicio secreto e interior de la Monarquía para mí solo: «Felipe II perfeccionó la Monarquía con agregar la Corona de Portugal, y sus Indias Orientales á los restante de España» (Philip II perfected the Monarchy adding the Crown of Portugal, and their East Indies to the remaining Spanish). It seem that it is a primary source, but this is also quoted in Escritos seleccionados by José María Jover Zamora, Marc Baldó i Lacomba y Pedro Ruiz Torres, Universitat de València (1997), pág 79, where is indicated: «enseguida tendremos ocasión de comprobar que es precisamente el problema de la unión entre las tres Coronas de los reinos peninsulares y ultramarinos de España lo que centra el interés, la inquietud y la angustia de nuestro escritor». En la página 81 dice «La experiencia de 1640 deja todavía intacto el concepto de España como realidad peninsular; de nación española como gentilicio de aplicación común a castellanos, catalenes o portugueses» (we will soon have occasion to verify that it is precisely the problem of the union between the three Crowns of the peninsular and overseas kingdoms of Spain which focuses the interest, the concern and the distress of our writer). In the page 81 says «La experiencia de 1640 deja todavía intacto el concepto de España como realidad peninsular; de nación española como gentilicio de aplicación común a castellanos, catalanes o portugueses» (The experience of 1640 makes the concept of Spain still intact as peninsular reality; of Spanish nation as(like) national of common application to Castilians, Catalans or Portuguese).; y en la page 88 ndicates this wide conception of Spain: «En fin, el proceso iniciado con la Restauración portuguesa de 1640, formalizado jurídicamente en 1668 con el reconocimiento de la independencia de Portugal por Carlos II, queda consolidado tras la guerra de sucesión y el establecimiento de una nueva dinastía. España ha dejado de ser definitivamente la expresión geográfica e histórica , comprensiva de toda la Península, arragigada en una noble tradición clásica; España ha pasado a ser una entidad política que comparte, con otra entidad política llamada Portugal, el solar de la Hispania del Renacimiento» (Al last, the process begun with the Portuguese Restoration of 1640, formalized juridically in 1668 with the recognition of the independence of Portugal by Carlos II, stays consolidate after the succession war and the establishment of a new dynasty. Spain abandoned definitively the geographical and historical expression, comprehensive of the whole Peninsula, ingrained in a noble classic tradition; Spain has become a political entity that shares, with another political entity called Portugal, the lot of the Hispania of the Renaissance). Inside the same book, page 77 and other historians as Elliot [61] appears Count-Duke's conception of Spain of institutionalizing and centralizing the monarchy, as well as explained in a memorandum addressed to King Philip IV: «Tenga Vuestra Majestad por el negocio más importante de su Monarquía el hacerse Rey de España; quiero decir que no se contente con ser Rey de Portugal, de Aragón, de Valencia, conde de Barcelona, sino que trabaje por reducir estos reinos de que se compone España al estilo y leyes de Castilla sin ninguna diferencia, que si Vuestra Majestad lo alcanza será el príncipe más poderoso del mundo» (For Your Majesty the most important business of State is to become King of Spain. I mean, Sire, that you should not be content to be King of Portugal, of Aragon, of Valencia and Count of Barcelona but you should direct all your work and thought, with the most experienced and secret advice, to reduce these realms which make up Spain to the same order and legal system as Castile, that if Your Majesty reaches it will be the most powerful prince of the world). In the page 77 of Jover's book, we read «Su audaz arbitrio apuntaba a una especie de consumación del movimiento renacentista encaminado a la reconstrucción de la España visigoda, centrada en torno a Castilla, fundiendo en un solo molde las tres Coronas destinadas a fundamentar la monarquía. Lo prematuro de tal propuesta quedará reflejado, cinco años más tarde, en unos párrafos de la Suplicación dirigida al mismo monarca por el portugués Lorenzo de Mendoza, allí donde alude a la unión de Reinos y Monarquía de Vuestra Majestad, que principalmente depende de estas tres Coronas de Castilla, Portugal y Aragón unidas y hermanadas» (His bold freewill pointed to a kind of consummation of the Renaissance movement directed to the reconstruction of the Visigothic Spain, centered around Castilla, merging into a single mold the three Crowns destined to support the monarchy. The premature of such will be reflected, five years later, in a few paragraphs of Suplicación "Suplicación" addressed to the same monarch for the Portuguese Lorenzo of Mendoza, where he alludes to the union of Kingdoms and Monarchy of Your Majesty, who principally depends on these three Crowns of Castile, Aragon and Portugal joined and related).
Therefore, it is necessary to notice that the authors who treat the juridical and governmental content of the Monarchy, use a precise terminology according to the primary sources, whereas other authors label what Spanish is and what Portuguese is, as a useful way of including long temporary processes of economic or military type; but from the specifically juridical area it is necessary to enter the issues as they were, and not and not as they may be more understandable for the reader. What I come to say is that a historian who treats on trade and economy in his book, he is not going to offer juridical details so precise as another author who analyzes the government of the Monarchy. Why are rejected some sources that use a terminology adapted to the original sources, as opposed to others which we do know the origin of terminology?. Perhaps Pat Ferrick should notice that you are using Bias
Finally, in the Historical World Atlas (its original title is DTV - Atlas zur Weltgeschichte) by Hermann Kinder and Werner Hilgemann, Ediciones Istmo (1986) ISBN 84-7090-005-6, in the page 258, appears a mapentitled as «El Imperio mundial hispano-portugués h. 1580» where in appears with of the same color all the territories of the king Philip II. Nevertheless, it has copyright and I do not be how to announce it.
Bye. --Trasamundo (talk) 01:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
«You'd have to provide quotes from historians such as "the Spanish colony of Brazil" or "the Spanish colony of Macau". Had you done much reading on the subject, you'd know that historians do not do this», «Brazil was never a Spanish colony. End of story». We can read:
EurohistoryTeacher has been engaging in some editing of longstanding text (without providing references) and has now reverted three times in total despite a request on his talk page to engage here first. (He's also been engaging in personal attacks [63] which, combined with the short contribution history to WP, suggests to me he's a sockpuppet, but that's a different story). I am not going to get engaged in an edit war but I strongly disagree with these edits and hope other editors can encourage him to engage here first. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Look PatFerrick i can tell you ANY FACT about the spanish empire here , just go ahead and ask and please leave and dont encourage vandalism in the spanish empire article, go ahead ask ANYTHING , i will gladly answer
and yes i shouldn't have said Ogre is a liar , i think he is just too proud and you calling me a sockpuppet is not too nice either but i wont make a big scandal like you :) t
Okay so what do you want? you put the spanish empire and wrote that it ended in 1898! well how? in the map you list spanish sahara but you put the time of the empire until 1898! you dont make sense Spanish sahara was given back in 1898? NO!, well block me if you want but im only trying to make these articles better due to huge bias and incorrect revisionism! stop trying to shut the truth!t
anyways Spanish Kings in the late 1700s sended conquistadors to place military forts in British Columbia so i think it should be included in the map, also there was military presense in the southern TIP of alaska to the Patagonia , do you undertsnad ? and also the amazon basin wasnt given up until much later because of Torsedila treaty so it should be included in the map , the very same one i uploaded but you deleted , and what about Spanish Prensence in INDIA AND CHINA?! why isnt it shown?! Patrick i would like to have total command of the article for at least 20 minutes without you interrupting and deleting it , you obiously have not as much insight on this particular subject as i do the empire expanded her territory well into the late 19 century when Spain started to colonize nearby islands in the Asia-pacific territory , but she lost them after 1898 , the rest of the asian-pacific islands were sold to Germany in 1899 , finnaly setting the sun on the spanish empire , is this wrong?! NO ITS NOT ! why do you act so bossy and think yourself owner of the article? are you a bot ? or a admin? if not then stop! t —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC).
This article is in serious need of editorial improvements. There are no inline references, there is far too much detail given that this is supposed to be an overview article (do we really need the nitty gritty of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden's activities?), and the language in places is often very poor ("Immediately Philip's government set up a ministry of the Navy and the Indies and created first a Honduras Company, a Caracas company, the Guipuzcoana Company, and — the most successful one — a Havana Company") or simply inappropriate for an encyclopaedia ("The time for rejoicing in Madrid was short-lived."). Does anyone else agree with me? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 05:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
wow...why is the empire so small?? the spanish empire reached 20 million square miles and OWNED the oregon territory , parts of sotuhwestern canada , parts of Brazil, etc . —Preceding unsigned comment added by EuroHistoryTeacher (talk • contribs) 01:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
The current Map is wrong , i think we should change it , i made a new map and im ready to put it up , anyone objects?
thumb|400px
sources :
http://pedrocolmenero.googlepages.com/imperiofelipeii.png/imperiofelipeii-full.jpg http://www.pais-global.com.ar/mapas/mapa40.htm http://www.elhistoriador.es/imperioespanol.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by EuroHistoryTeacher (talk • contribs) 16:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Iberian_Union_Empires.png http://alerce.pntic.mec.es/lsam0005/2bach_historia/imagenes/imperio_felipe2.jpg http://redul.wikispaces.com/file/view/2BacHisT08mapa-virreinatos01.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by EuroHistoryTeacher (talk • contribs) 16:32, 27 November 2008 (UTC) http://www.elgrancapitan.org/portal/images/stories/ter9.gif http://www.gomezalvarezgomez.com/au09.jpg
--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 15:55, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I dont think all of them are "self-published" or "wikipedia websites" (??) . Well what changes will you want to make to the map i made? because we NEED to change the current map fast , is too biased and shows the Spanish Empire size IN MODERN-DAY BORDERS terms .Also nobody is claiming that portuguese colonies were incorporated in the Spanish Empire , i think we should write in between parenthesis or apart , for example : "In Pink portuguese territories governed by Spanish kings 1580-1640" , or something like that , of course a little more elaborated . The article needs reform and fast as possible --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 16:40, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
when you say "If you want to suggest that the Spanish Empire contained Brazil or Goa, that is not fine." i don't think you understand the "Brazil" part , Brazil as a colony belonged to Spanish kings for 60 years , however , PARTS OF MODERN-DAY BRAZIL belonged to spanish kings for centuries!http://alerce.pntic.mec.es/lsam0005/2bach_historia/imagenes/imperio_felipe2.jpg
can i have a go at the map in the article for 5 minutes to see how it would look , if you dont like it "O Highness" i'll change it later , ok?--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Almost half of modern-day Brazil belonged to Spanish Kings , so if i chage it , you WON'T have a problem? wow thats a first :) i think portuguese colonies should be included just as european territories are , because those euro lands didnt form a "spanish state" and neither did portuguese colonies...or aragonese mediterranen lands... its very hard to define Spain as a nation in the 15/16th century , it was rather seen as a multi-national enterprise , where lands were like private possessions of the Kings , just like Belgian Congo was to Leopold . Can you explain from your point of view why portuguese colonies should NOT be included , while aragonese or hasburg european territory (outside of Castille) is ? Castille was the axis of the empire , yet many other lands belonged to Aragon or Hasburg Kings and they are still included in the map , so why shouldnt portguese colonies be? . I think this is pure foolishness .
One more thing , how do i put sections of the history books in the screen so you can see it? i dont think such thing was invented yet , so all i can show you is internet stuff , and the book list in wikipedia is something i haven't looked at and dont understand... --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 17:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
ok thanks for the info Ferrick , now back again to the topic , can you answer my question (as specified above) please?
Can you explain from your point of view why portuguese colonies should NOT be included , while aragonese or hasburg european territory (outside of Castille) are ? Castille was the axis of the empire , yet many other lands belonged to Aragon or Hasburg Kings and they are still included in the map , so why shouldnt portguese colonies be? --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 18:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok you might not understand something , the phrase "Spanish Empire" in its pure version is something extremely hard to define , if you want to put it in that case , then the Spanish "Empire" in fact wouldnt exist , Empire wasnt used back then to refer to oversea territories , they saw themselves as KINGDOMS not Empires...
the pics show big chunks of Brazil being part of the Audiencia de Quito and the 3 small countries of Guyana , suriname and french guyana as being part of the Audiencia of Santa Fe , both which were part of the Vice Royalty of Peru
we NEED to include portuguese colonies , otherwise if we dont , we shouldn't show the Castillian american lands , the aragonese mediterranean lands and hasburg inheritance of Charles V HRE , (Carlos I of Spain) , because they weren't incorporated into a "spanish empire" --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 18:33, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
No is NOT original research as much as you want to put my arguements down , it is not . No historian considers portuguese colonies from the period 1580-1640 to be spanish or to be incoorporated into a "spanish state" (which didn't exist)and that is what i also believe . Portugal remained a separate state (with its respective colonies/territories) just as Castille or Aragon remained with theirs , the only thing all of them had in common was that they were ruled by a SINGLE MONARCH , so not including Portugal and its empire , would be contradictory , the "Spanish Empire" ("spanish" is nothing but a name ) consisted of Portugal/Castille/Aragon (portugal for a shorter period) and their territories/colonies AS WELL as the Hasburg private possesions like the Low countries and Italian states do you understand ? you seem like a serious hispanophobe , no insult inttended --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 18:58, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Pat Ferrick , hispanophobe doens't only means that you "hate" hispanics or hispanic culture and history , you can dislike it , or try to put it down , which it looks to me what you are trying to do in this case . Yes im sure your family is half spanish .
Anyways , you HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS , there was no such a things as a "Spanish Empire" before 1768 , after this date it was organized into a formal empire , by this time however , the hasburg european territories ,the aragonese european territories , etc were a thing of the past...
The Castillian lands , the aragonese lands and the hasburg inheritance in europe didnt became part of a "spanish state" , the same about Portugal and its colonies , it DIDN'T became part of Castille or Aragon.
The Spanish Empire before 1768 , was a multi-national enterprise , lands all over the world belonged to a single monarch but were from different crowns , ie. Peru to Castille , Naples to Aragon , India Goa to portugal , low countries and Milan to Hasburgs , but they weren't incoorporated into a single state , rather it worked like a confederacy , how many times am i going to explain this to you?! do you not understand? this portuguese inheritance is unique , not comparable to Hannover and UK or Scotland and England ... think more logically Pat Ferrick--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 18:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
haha you know what the funny thing is ? altough you are telling me that this is "original research or my thoughts" im getting some details from the Spanish Empire article of the Spanish section! ,[1]
its not what IM thinking , its the FACTS! the very same facts which you seem to not know of or try to put away!
Be reasonable and think logically this will let you write better and let you ACCEPT the real history, i seriously dispute your neutrality and this is a rule of wikipedia , be neutral!, like you said : wikipedia is a place where anyone can edit , but not everyone should--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
yes but the information im getting from the spanish empire article in spanish has veriafable sources , and they are in spanish which i'll translate to you for free (lol) : "En 1768 el informe de Croix habla de "uniformar el gobierno de estas grandes colonias con el de su metrópoli". Siendo el primer documento conocido que redefine los reinos de "Indias" como "colonias"."
This piece of text is basically saying to organize the overseas territories in a colonial way. This is what an empire is , the lands from 1492-1768 weren't , so portuguese colonies should be included if Aragonese , or Hasburg inheritance lands are --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 02:36, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
ok what about this map then : thumb|400px An anachronous map of the Spanish Empire (1492-1975). Red - actual possessions; Pink - explorations, areas of influence and trade and claims of sovereignty .
I'll put it up because i think (as backed by my sources) that it is very correct and accurate--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 03:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I had a TINY trouble uploading this file into the Spanish Empire Article , but now i think i figured out and the new map is shown , i hope i didnt mess anything up :)--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 03:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
OK! now i have a BIG problem! im trying to upload the image where it shows Hawaii as sphere of influence but not the azores and madeiras islands which were portuguese ! but i dont know how to do it, im so fu***ng frustrated ! can anybody help? this is the right image : thumb|400px--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 04:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion the position of user Red Hat is unacceptable. Anyone knows, anyone with some good knowlegde of History that the position of Europeanhistoryteacher is right. Secondly he is provinding sources. The obsession of Red Hat with this article and his attempts can be classified as Sophistry. Sophistry is one of the worst things in Wiki, the manipulation of language and concepts to obscure things. The repeated attempts at saying that Portugal was never under Spanish Rule is absurd (whatever name we want to give to it, kingdom, personal union, empire, whatever), the attempts at trying to say that Portugal was under Spanish rule but not the rest of its territory or colonies at the time is even more ridiculous. I support Eurohistoryteacher and think user the REd Hat is more than biased and a lot of users have already discussed the same issue with him, showing their disagreement. So, who is this guy, the owner of this article?. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.187.116 (talk) 01:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
why don't we add a infobox again ? it can be very helpful for the reader and it gives the article more sense of cleaness in my view , so why not ? here is a start
Spanish Empire Imperio Español | |
---|---|
1492–1975 | |
Capital | Toledo (1492-1561) Madrid (1561-1601) Valladolid (1601-1606) Madrid (1606- ) |
Common languages | Spanish, Portuguese, German, French, Dutch |
Religion | Roman Catholic |
Government | Monarchy |
Monarch | |
• 1516-1556 | Charles I |
• 1886-1898 | Alfonso XIII¹ |
Regent | |
• 1886-1898 | Maria Christina |
History | |
1492 | |
• Conquest of the Aztec Empire | 1519-1521 |
• Conquest of the Inca Empire | 1532–1537 |
1975 | |
Currency | Spanish Dollar, Real, Escudo |
ISO 3166 code | ES |
--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 19:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree that an Infobox should be included. Also, I think the last version of the map is much better than the previous one (It was wrong and confusing to have the "European" territories in a different color). Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.4.20.100 (talk) 11:23, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The first Global Empire was Portugal.
In 1500-1501 - the first one in 4(or 5) Continents and with the first Establishments in the Moluccas, Ceram and Banda Islands in 1512-1513 the first in 5(or 6) Continents - in fact already in the Australian continental plate, and proclaiming nominal domain on the west Papua(New Guinea) in 1526. And the first in some subcontinents.
Let us respect the truth and History.
Of course Spain and Portugal joined of 1580 to 1640 had formed wider a double global empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.22.173.196 (talk) 19:25, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Honestly i would say Portugal wasn't the first global empire, first Portuga was more of a entrepreneur and not a colonial empire unlike Spain , also Portugal armies and navies werent as strog as the ones of Spain , another thing , Spain had the first GLOBAL currency and unlike Portugal it was the first to acquire real territories , Portugal just had small forts along the coasts of the land they "conquered", greetings--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 20:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
You are wrong Portuagl had entire dominion
oh really a check on me? we should have made a bet on that! anyways Ferrick you might as well apologize right now , im not a "sockpuppet" --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 02:21, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
There is clearly sockpuppetry going on at this article talk page. I would just like to point out that this is against Wikipedia policy, and anyone who engages in it will get blocked, and ultimately banned. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
The only one that should be blocked is you. I have nothing to do with other users in this discussion page, so watch your language and prove things before you accuse others. Your dictatorial approach is unacceptable. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.187.116 (talk) 01:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Jan here , we need somebody else instead of Ferrick here , someone more lenient and who has a little more insight into this subject , one question is there anyway to replace or ask for another admin for Red Hat Ferrick?--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 17:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
User Red Hat continues threatening people. He should be stopped or reported. I will not engange anymore in any type of edit war. I bet that he will do. I encourage other users to keep an eye on this guy. My position is already clear. Support Euroteacher. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.187.116 (talk) 01:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Ferrick in case you want to blame me again for sock puppetry , save your words its not me , not even this time or the first time ok? thank you very much!--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 01:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Aren't you are admin of something? you are the only one blocking the release of the correct information on the SE article .
yes people come and go because after a while they get tired of discussing with you and just leave , you are clearly a hispanophobe no doubt about that , you just can't accept the facts , im not going to waste my time explaining this subject (which i clearly dominate over you), i think you are the kind of person who's hobby is to read books about this topic and now you think you own the TRUTH , well..not exactly friend , you are not the only one who knows about this , and you should be more open to other's opinion and facts .im done arguing with you , i read the many correct sources people has given you over the past months and you dont want to accept them , well what can i say? remember the neutral point of view ok? bye --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 18:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
EuroHistoryTeacher, the sources that you claim to be "correct" may be "correct" by your point of view, but not to the point of view of others who have also provided sources against your claims.
XPTO (talk) 19:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
The map which has stood for over a year has been altered without any references provided. As I would be violating the 3RR rule I will not attempt to revert it any more tonight. If no references are forthcoming, I will raise the matter on the original research noticeboard.
Problems with the map (there may be more, this is just my observation):
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
ahh...Ferrick im not the one deciding what parts to color! im going to show you maps ! just wait please be patient, also read about the Castille War here is one source http://es.geocities.com/coloniasesp/ --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 02:30, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes its self-published...just like wikipedia , except here more people help in publishing it :) facts are facts , if i publish london is the capital of england , thats a fact...and SELF-PUBLISHED , of course there are additional sources to back you up , and im finding sources for you , so just be patient and please stop saying im publishing original research--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 02:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I think Euroteacer shows an excellent knowlegde of what he or she is doing. Keep up your good work. Again, to try and show a map that coincides fully with the present Spanish speaking countries in South America is ridiculous and risible, just to mention one exmaple of the quality of the map that stood before. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.153.158.66 (talk • contribs)
Who says so? Just stick to facts and forget about anything else. Jan.
EuroTeacher, with all respect You write what you want, the truth is another thing and the chronology demonstrates it(of course you are right in major and many things and You know many about these matters, but wrong in others in my view). of course Spain became a more larger and powerful empire as Britain(even more global) after.
So was also Britain the first global empire, with missions-establishments and oficial claims in Antartica?! maybe.
I am talk about of the chronological relative expansion of the empire. Was Portugal, first, chronology(in that sense, not any other). However it may be that the Spanish Empire, with more population and resources and dominios in Europe out of Peninsula (that Portugal did not have beyond its own european Population, territory and Atlantic archipelagoes) and its gradual advance in the North America and is part of Oceania for the half part that fit to it in the treat of Tordesillas/Zaragoza-Elvas etc., became the dominant global force in the second half of XVI century and XVII, by the power in Europe above all, including Portugal for some time in the sphere of the crown of the Habsburgs(maybe this is the first "global" Peninsular empire), maybe for this questions, the Portuguese Empire Edditors (You or others or you and others) don´t have that kind of statement in the first phrase and we understand.
The Indian Ocean was a Portuguese Lake, for a few years yes, but was, as the major part of Atlantic, with 22 cities in west coast of India, more than half Ceylon, Oman(Muscat and all major cities and fortresses in Oman - Arabia Peninsula), Bahrein(Arabian p.), Queshem and Ormuz in Persian coast, part of today Emirates(Arabian Peninsula) and from Brazil to Moluccas, Macau and Deshima enclave,cities in Maylasia, forst in Sumatra and Java. For some years the thalassocracy was total with expeditions to the coasts of the Sinai, against the still incipient but increasing Turkish positions in Egypt(its fleet in particular) and attempts for one year in Basrah(Iraq) etc.
Empire:
EUROPE(EUROPEAN and AFRICAN OCEANIC PLATE) PORTUGAL - Continent; Azores; Madeira(Selvagens)
MOROCCO: Aguz (1506-1525) Alcácer-Ceguer (1458-1550) Arzila (1471-1550, 1577-1589) Azamor (1513-1541) Ceuta (1415-1640) Mazagon (1485-1550, 1556-1769) Mogador (1506-1525) Safim (1488-1541) Agadir (1505-1769) Tanger (1471-1662) Ouadane (1487- midle XVI)
AFRICA(SOUTH OF SAHARA)
ANGOLA (1575-1975) Cabinda-(1883-1975)
ANO BOM (1474-1778)
MAURITANIA: Arguim (1455-1633)
CAPE VERDE(1462-1975)
GANA: São Jorge da Mina (1482-1637) Costa do Ouro (1482-1642) Acra (1557-1578)
FERNANDO PÓ (1478-1778)
GUINEA BISSAU: Guiné Portuguesa (1879-1974)
KENYA: Melinde (1500-1630) Mombaza (1593-1698, 1728-1729)
MOZAMBIQUE (1501-1975)
TANZANIA: Kilwa (1505-1512) Zanzibar (1503-1698)
BENIN: Fortress of São João Baptista de Ajudá (1680-1961) SÃO TOMÉ E PRINCIPE (1753-1975)
SENEGAL: Ziguinchor (1645-1888)
MADAGASCAR(Nominal - One base (but necessary to review the sources)
YEMEN Arq.(ASIA- "near" AFRICA): Socotra (1506-1511)
And more several areas of influence, indirect domain or tributaries Kingdoms in Africa and Asia etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.113.163.75 (talk) 11:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
ASIA
ARABIAN Peninsula:
BAHREIN(ARABIAN PENINSULA):
Bahrein and Al Qatif (1521-1602)
OMAN-(ABIAN PENINSULA) (and ARAB EMIRATES):
Muscat(1515-1650) Doba, Libedia, Corfação, Mada and Quelba (1515-1650)
SAUDI ARABIA and U. ARAB EMIRATES:
Khasab, Julfar(1515-1650)
IRAN -PERSIAN Coast:
Hormuz (1515-1622) Comoron (1515-1622) Qeshem (1515-1622) Bandar Abbas (1506-1615)
INDIA:
Laquedives Islands (1498-1545) Baçaím (1535-1739) Bombay (Mumbai) (1534-1661) Calecute (1512-1525) Cananor (1502-1663); Chaul (1521-1740) Chittagong (1528-1666) Cochim (1500-1663) Cranganor (1536-1662) Dadrá e Nagar-Aveli (1779-1954) Daman (1559-1962) Diu (1535-1962) Goa (1510-1962) Hughli (1579-1632) Nagapattinam (1507-1657) Paliacate (1518-1619) Coulan (1502-1661) Salsette (1534-1737) Masulipatão (1598-1610) Mangalore (1568-1659) Surate (1540-1612) Thoothukudi (1548-1658) São Tomé de Meliapore (1523-1662; 1687-1749)
SRY LANKA:
Portuguese CEILON (1518-1658) Half Island, all west to the interior and part of the east.
MALDIVES(1518-1521, 1558-1573)
CHINA:
Macau(1515 - 1557-1999)
JAPAN:
Deshima(Nagasaki)-(1571-1639)
ASIA, AUSTRALASIA and OCEANIA
MALAYSIA:
Malacca(1511-1641)
INDONESIA(and PAPUA):
Forts in Sumatra Flores Island (XVI-XIX) Makassar(1512-1665) Bante (XVI-XVIII) Moluccas(Maluku): (1512 - Discovery - Amboin 1576-1605, Ternate 1522-1575, Tidore 1578-1650)
EAST TIMOR(1642-1975):
Discovery-1512-1517 process of Independence -Indonésia -Timor Timur (1975-1999) "Protectorate" UN(1999-2002)
NORTH AMERICA
CANADA:
Newfoundland Factory(1501--1503) Only Claims of Nominal Possession of LABRADOR and TERRA NOVA by the King (1501-1570) - Terras del Rey de Portugal - Colony established by João Alvares Fagundes(It lasted 3 years after 1521) in Newfoundland.
SOUTH AMERICA
BRAZIL(1500-1822)
BARBADOS- a Factory (1536-1620)
URUGUAY: Nova Colónia do Sacramento (1680-1777) Cisplatine Province (1808-1822) - Ocupation (Expantion of Portuguese Brazil and Empire of Brazil) Change between Portugal and Spain many times. FRENCH GUIANA (1809-1817)Conquest and ocupation.
(to complete)
-Both the Iberian ones had made the deed.
I agree on this one with this user. Therefore I think that "one of the first global empires" is better than "the first global empire", since the role of Portugal was very important too and preceded Spain in the Atlantic voyages around Africa, etc. Anyway, the main problem here, in my opinion, is the map. I support Euroteacher on that one. By the way I do not see the pink colours nor the areas of the Portuguese colonies between 1580 and 1640 that should be also included. Anyway, that´s my two cents. Good luck. Jan.
Yes maybe i agree with you , i think we should put in BOTH articles something like this : "and one of the first global empires" . But look at this , Spain had colonies/territories/lands in the 6 POPULATED continents , yet maybe the Iberian Union , that is to say the incoorporation of the portuguese monarchy and EMPIREinto the spanish one , made Spain (or Portugal maybe) the first global empire. Also let's start thniking about including the portuguese imperial territories into the Spanish map , because this is what happened unlike some other users like Pat Ferrick who engage in sophistry , Portugal even had a SPANISH Viceroy FOR GOD'S SAKE!!--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 21:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Dear Euroteacher, the Viceroy (that had to be by law of the royal family or tied, Spanish, Italian etc.) formaly represented the King and his personal authority, government and the Crown of the Habsburgs in the Kingdom, He/She did not represent Castile, nor Aragon nor represented Spain, - and the Castilians, Aragonese(Spanish)Navarrese - or German or other European were forbidden and hindered to occupy Admin. positions in any territory of the Portuguese empire. Of course "Spain" - Spain itself was the major power in 1580-1640.
Note: about the British although Antarctica was also "continent", not populated in those times, maybe. Portugal was the first global in one sense and Spain was the first global in another sense (explanation above) both senses in my -and others I Believe - view.
However it may be that this Iberian or "Hispanic"(old sense of the name) Peninsular Crown(1580-1640) Portugal and Spain was maybe the first globalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.113.163.75 (talk) 15:16, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
"Spain" in modern sense as official name in a official unitary formal State only exists after 1715 with the Nueva Planta of Felipe V, until this date, Castile, Aragon and Navarra and other States had had its proper borders, proper currency, autonomous Justice and its own sovereignty as Aragon for example (where nor the King or local troops of Castile couldn´t intervine). So it did not had formal representative of Castile or Aragon or Flandres in Portugal between 1580-1640, but of the King.
i took it out because it was too confusing and not yet fully developed , give me 3 days so i can fix it and i'll put it up , thanks guys--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 21:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Wrong done. I support Euroteacher map. So please, go back to his version. I hope people can see The red Hat behaviour. Jan.
Sorry Patrick , you are engaging in sophistry and also you DO NOT OWN this article or ANY other article on wikipedia , so im going to revert your innaccurate edits . Yes you have provided sources and so the thousands of users who are against you but your dictator-like behavior has driven them off the article . Look in YOUR userpage , the british empire article or this one here , you are being told by MANY (not just me) about your behavior , you do not own or command people . Many users have provided sources against yours , so why should your view be the only one shown even though is false/biased? Im also going to report you if you don't apologize for accusing me 2 (!!) times of sockpuppetry--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 21:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
See Cochinchina campaign for more information
User red Hat Ferrick tries to confuse people by showing them his biased knowledge (nationalism) and sophistry is not allowed in wikipedia . He has been approached by many users who accuse him of ownership issues , which i also believe . He acts like a dictator around any article he thinks he knows about , and he does not want to show the facts on the articles . He is now claiming that the map i made is "original research" and he is about to report me . He has also NOT apologized after numerous times of calling me a sockpuppet which im clearly NOT. He believes because work is not "verifiable" (even though it is) should not be included in the article .
He thinks that Cambodia and southern Vietnam were not spanish claims of sovereingty. well it is and i have already proven it , the franco-spanish expedition of the mid-1800's (see Cochinchina campaign) in Indochina was so widely followed in Spain where it has now entered vernacular . Spanish-speaking people today say when (referring to something that is very far ) : esta mas lejos que en la cochinchina (old name for Indochina/Cambodia) , meaning that is "farther than in the conchinchina" .
So who is this kid? a dictator that he thinks he owns the truth AND the article?! he has been told (and you people can look it up in his userpage) by many wiki editors about his rude and dictator-like behavior and about sophism , which apperently he can't understand . He wants to artificially shrink the size of the spanish empire . His point of view is NOT neutral , and this is clearly against the rules...--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 03:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Are you serious ?? who attacked me first? the first day i came here you accuse me of sockpuppetry (which you still havent apologized about and i didnt report you for being a nice fellow editor).
Did you actually read my commment? the legacy of the Cochinchina campaign is still widely see in Spain . Read about the Cochinchina Campaign , Tthis ancient Kingdom that defended itself against the hispano-french expedition comprised over parts of Cambodia and Vietnam , i also gave you a source which you dont want to accept. We don't need a big discussion over this , its a fact even though you have never read/heard about it. I dont need a encyclopedia to tell me when WW2 started , so why do you need one to inform you about the Cochinchina campaign ? its a fact , like it or not. Now that i explained this Cambodian-Viet issue, which im sure you will try to debunk (fruitlessly , because facts are FACTS) , lets move on to the next question...what else do you need to know that you lack the information about? Borneo?Sabah?--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 01:40, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I am not saying everything above is necessarily incorrect, I am asking you to tell me what sources you used to decide which areas to shade - ie I am challenging your material and per WP:V, as the editor adding material, you need to provide references "or it will be removed". The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 11:37, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Here we go AGAIN Ferrick ... im going to answer for the last time to your q's and i hope you are satisfied , if you are not it doesnt matter but you cannot keep a FAKE/INCORRECT map like the one you keep putting up :
1."Bucketing "trade, exploration and claims" into one colour is downright misleading. Which area is which category? It's impossible to tell. Normally, in history books, arrows are used to depict exploration and trade routes..."
This is EXACTLY like the portuguese empire map says , so i copied it to make european colonial articles more equal , so if you are going to complain (in purpose) about this then go switch it too in the Portuguese empire article.
2."What is that sliver of pink territory sticking out of Spanish Sahara?"
Its the Adrar Emirate , which was a spanish protectorate from the late-1800s until the early 1900s when it became part of the French sub-saharan colonial empire . The spanish explorer Cervantes signed a treaty with those sub-saharan tribes which made Spain responsible for the emirate's safety (protectorate).
Perhaps i should color it red , just like the british empire has protectorates in brown . Thanks for the heads-up.
3."Why do the borders of Spanish Guinea not line up with the present-day borders of Equatorial Guinea? What reference did you use for this?"
My mistake , i have no idea why i colored them , probably by mistake . Sorry.
4."I have never, ever, in my life seen anything that suggests Spain claimed Cambodia or Southern Vietnam. A military expedition alongside France or a saying in Spanish is not the same as claiming anything..."
O.K. first lets say something very important : BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T SEE OR KNOW something doens't necessarily mean its false or incorrect , remember you don't know everything (like a normal human being).
It was not known as "Cambodia or Southern Vietnam" , it was a independent Kingdom that was basically Indochina , read about the Nguyen Dynasty for more info.
For 3 years spanish (also french) troops were battling for control of some provinces, the expedition took off from Manila in 1858 with about the same amount of troops in both sides (french & spanish/filipino) and also the same amount of warships (Spain was the third naval power in this era).This can be included in the pink coloring for sure , i dont know why would you oppose . Under exploration it seems ok .
5."What are those areas shaded on Borneo and New Guinea?"
Look fast sources :
The term New Guinea was applied to the island in 1545 by a Spaniard, Yñigo Ortiz de Retez, because of a fancied resemblance between the islands' inhabitants and those found on the African Guinea coast.
In 1545 the Spaniard Yñigo Ortiz de Retez sailed along the north coast of New Guinea as far as the Mamberamo River near which he landed, naming the island 'Nueva Guinea'. The first map showing the whole island (as an island) was published in 1600 and shows it as 'Nova Guinea'.
6.Why is such a huge portion of Formosa shaded?
What do you mean? Only half the island is shaded...
7."Why is such a huge swathe of Brazil shaded? Most maps I see don't attempt to place any Amazonian border at all on Spanish claims/sovereignty in the early history of Iberian Latin America..."
See Henry Karmen's book "How Spain became a world power :1492-1763" , in the map section they show a very accurate map of spanish territory in sotuh america (not the torsedilla border).
8."Why is the entirety of the Caribbean shaded, when Spain did not actually settle all the islands - why are some not pink?"
Yes a second right for you :)
Not all the carribbean islands were settled but most were and ALL claimed , the carribbean islands were for a time mostly spanish-dominated. We should show only the settled islands in red and the rest in pink , but ALL carribbean islands have to be colored.
9."What led you to shade that size of present-day Alaska/jutting into Canada?"
Well...what led me? sources , facts and a good-faith edit so i can make this article better for the reader.
You ever heard about the Lousiana extension? when Spain received the territory from France it strechted from the mouth of the mississippi (New orleans) going up and in the canadian territory (which was not part of UK empire yet) so it was spanish , in 1800 France got it back from Spain and sold it to the US in 1803 , the US then in the convention of 1818 ceded the canadian part of the lousania territory to the UK.
Also the Nootka territory and Oregon belonged to Spain before it was british . Oregon itself comes from the spanish name Orejon which means "Big-ear" , a reference to the native americans who apparently had big ears (artificial enlargement). The nootka territory was vancouver island (where a spanish fort was builded) and also included territory (in continental land) in the western portion of (soon to be) British Columbia.
"I am not saying everything above is necessarily incorrect, I am asking you to tell me what sources you used to decide which areas to shade - ie I am challenging your material and per WP:V, as the editor adding material, you need to provide references "or it will be removed". "
How many times have i given you reference/sources? You just can't or dont want to accept them..--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 22:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
"It is a reference, it is not you explaining what you consider the facts to be - that is your own original research"
Ok you can go research and read the books, its not what i "consider the facts to be" , they are facts you can google them or go to your library tomorrow , have fun reading!--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 01:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I have a request: a cease fire, please.
In return, I promise to present a general compromise proposal within the next 24 48 hours to adjust our map-related differences — at least provisionally until Ogre's map. Do I have your agreement on this, EuroHistoryTeacher and Pat? SamEV (talk) 02:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I think Red Hat's behaviour and positions are being disclosed. I doubt very much that he is a good will user. To say things like that Kamen's book is not a reliable source etc, is unacceptable. He should be banned. Users like this one do a lot of damage to this site. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 09:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
No verbal attacks please Pat Ferrick --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 13:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
then scroll down to where it says "Vice Royalty of Peru , ca 1650." You will find areas of Brazil as being spanish. I think this is the only reference you need , as for the rest what confuses you?
"The Convention respecting fisheries, boundary, and the restoration of slaves between the United States and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, also known as the London Convention, Anglo-American Convention of 1818, Convention of 1818, or simply the Treaty of 1818, was a treaty signed in 1818 between the United States and the United Kingdom. It resolved standing boundary issues between the two nations, and allowed for joint occupation and settlement of the Oregon Country, known to the British and in Canadian history as the Columbia District of the Hudson's Bay Company, and including the southern portion of its sister fur district New Caledonia.The treaty marked the last territorial loss of Continental United States (the northern tip of the territory of Louisiana above the 49th parallel)."
see convention of 1818 --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 13:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Replying to EuroHistoryTeacher:
Most of all, I question the validity of 4. Spain did not claim these areas.
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
2."The following year (1886) they pushed into the interior and signed a treaty with the people of Adrar, but they did not inform the European powers of the treaty. In successive years Adrar was overrun by French explorers and thus fell under French influence."
(:)Yea so you see , they did signed the treaty which wasnt recognized by euro powers , but Spain was there as sovereign of the emir of Adrar. The protectorate became french in the early 1900s.
"And how did you decide what area to shade? In all the maps of the "Scramble for Africa" that I have seen, I have NEVER seen this shaded as Spanish."
(:)Take a look at the Adrar province in Mauritania , it looks as to what i have colored. I know you havent seen it and i didnt until University . Highschools book are not the best of references Patrick.
4."So what? Spain, Britain and France were "there" in Mexico during the French intervention in Mexico, that does not mean historians say that Mexico was part of the French or British overseas empires."
No you can't compare it like that , that's original research. It was a WAR , Spain and France in one side and the Nguyen Empire in the other . The war started when 2 spanish missionaries were executed .They took off from Manila (spanish filipines) and for 3 years , Spain and France battled for some provinces in Indochina. France pressured Spain to get some sphere of influence or lands or whatever like the french did. Thats how the french empire started in Indochina . Im not saying this was part of the spanish empire , thats why is in pink under exploration/trade/claims of sovereignty (just like the portuguese Empire has in its article)
5."But my main problem here is - how did you decide which areas of Borneo to shade? None of these sources are maps."
(:)I think this is your only problem . Look at the information in the page . They say what parts were explored by the spaniards or where they landed.
Castille War , i know but its very hard to find it , but i will when i come back just to satisfy your doubts .
6."...but showing ...would be nice."
(:) yes but if it says the NORTH/NORTHEN PART , why do you need a map? dont you know your directions??:D
Here's one for you : In 1580, after seizing the opportunity provided by a disputed succession, Spain also acquired the Portuguese monarchy and the overseas empire which went with it. This gave Spain an Atlantic seaboard much more extensive than the one she had previously possessed; and the importance of this acquisition in strategic terms can best be expressed by noting that the provisional decision to send the Armada against England was taken soon after Philip got back from Portugal; and that much of the preparatory work was done at Lisbon, whence the Armada eventually sallied.
Anyways what points dont you accept?? what do you need info on? doubts on what parts?--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 19:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 19:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Ok then , but it can go under "exploration" in pink so it doesnt matter . If you object to this , then i won't show Indochina but i will include ALL portuguese colonies from 1580-1640.--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 20:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I OWN articles?! excuse me look at YOU! in your own userpage , in this talk page or in the british empire talk page MANY users have told you that you have OWNERSHIP ISSUES. Im just saying you should accept this Indochina issue (fact btw) or we should include the portguese empire in this article (something you dread) . Nope , not making up anything , the spaniards were there--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 20:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Is not because you are not "qualified" , but i just think you don't have enough knowledge about this particular subject.
For example you don't see me arguing to death or being a obstacle to progress in the British Empire article because i never quiet studied that subject so i restrict myself from making erronous comments , on the other hand i have a almost complete knowledge about this one , so it is easy for me to contribute.
A medic is a medic , a lawyer a layer , each men to his own profession.--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 21:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Recommendation I'll be brief.
Thank you both for pretty much resolving this dispute.
Cochinchina is now the sticking point. I recommend a different color than red or pink and labelled "Military incursion", or some other name to that effect. SamEV (talk) 01:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Exactly SamEV , it was a FAILED colonial enterprise , but it still has to be represented like it or not Ferrick.
I do however agree with Red Hat to pink emir Adrar pink, im doing it right now --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 13:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a shading on southern Vietnam? Where is the source for this? YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 04:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
A territory which has definitely been left out in the map is the Moluccas (or Maluku) archipelago, also known as the Spice Islands. Spanish presence dates back to the 1520's and 1540's, though it was formally occupied in 1606, lasting until the 1660's (the island of Siau until the 1670's). The islands with permanent Spanish presence in this period include the bigger Ternate island, Tidore island, as well as Halmahera, Morotai and the smaller Siau.
References for this are in this study: http://www.colonialvoyage.com/spainmoluccas.html as well as in the Wikipedia pages of Moluccas, Ternate and Tidore. JCRB (talk) 13:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
yea the Moluccas and the rest of the spice islands are not shown , ill include them later--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 14:04, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Red Hat Ferrick understand something : NEVER ASSUME because you make an ASS-out of-U and-ME O.K.?
I ALREADY KNEW about the Moluccas/Ternate and Tidore islands , these were actually the fabled "spice islands". They however lasted very short in the Spanish colonial enterprise.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0d4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA93&dq=Spain+in+the+Moluccas#PPA96,M1
"Nevertheless, until 1622 the Moluccas remained indirectly involved in Pacific affairs, largely as an outreach of the spanish presence in the Philippines."
http://books.google.com/books?id=Rr11PADhMOYC&pg=PA184&dq=Spain+in+Indochina#PPA184,M1
"The Moluccas were spanish for a few decades, and Spain mantained its hold on Ternate of this group until 1663."
"The King of Borneo gave his dominions in vassalage to Governor Sande, and New Guinea had been claimed for Spain from very early by right of discovery" should we paint all of the island (Nova Guinea) as claimed (in pink)? i think its a good idea.
Also we are not discussing the Indochina issue in this section if you didnt see it is above . Im not going to discuss that issue with you here.--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 03:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Regarding Cambodia, you are still engaging in original research by claiming that Spain had "influence" there. The facts are that there was a joint military incursion with France. That is all. Any other unsubstantiated claim or conclusion is original research. And show me ONE map of the Spanish Empire in a reliable source where this is coloured in. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 10:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Why so much revisionism here? why do you constantly try to shrink the size of the Empire? Indochina was to be invaded and made a colony (divided between france/spain) in the 1860's but Spain FAILED to make anything out of it , it was a failed colonial enterprise, so why not show it? Also in the late 1500's there was a attempt to conquer Indochina , the fleet sailed from Manila and the spaniards burned the capital and killed the newly elected cambodian king.
http://www.zamboanga.com/html/Spanish_governors_of_the_philippines.htm
Luis Pérez Dasmariñas was the spanish governor of the Philippines , where the expedition sailed from.
please have a neutral point of view--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 14:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
O.K. look MOST maps in here (of the SE) won't show you places like British columbia or parts of alaska being spanish ,or even places like the Adrar emirate . Maps are not everything you know , just read or study Spanish History to the last word and you will find more information than 20 encylopaedias could give you. Maps are extremely hard to find on something very specific so i suggest you don't base all your knowledge on maps.
The problem with you is that you are very controlling of something , ownerships issues , plus you think you own the truth , which of course you dont...nobody does , some people are just better informed about certain subjects. You clearly want to shrink the size of other empires , like in the Dutch Empire you were doing some ridiculous things , i support User:Red4tribe because he was giving good sources .
Or for example the Iberian Union issue , you just don't want to accept that portuguese colonies belonged to spanish kings (and therefore to "Spain" in this case).
There are many issues with you and i don't think you should impose your bias view on everyone else , if you edit something and its wrong imagine how many readers worldwide would read your bias view? I actually became a editor after i was discussing with some welsh friend of mine, he actually argued based on wikipedia and he read Spain didn't had colonies in Oceania and Asia (or at least it wasn't fully explained)!so i decided to become a editor to fix many things , especially the map which was clearly wrong at every level, it was pure anglo-propaganda and you can't even deny it , for it was. And now I found out you were/are the force behind all this bias info , i already have provided sources, even though they are not the best of sources because is hard to find info on this Indochina issue .
Greetings--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 01:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
No , i don't know everything about it and neither do you , but i actually took the time to study this subject in a much deeper level than you have. Just because i say something it doesn't mean is true , that's exactly why i provide references (even though they are not the best of th best). I understand wiki policy very good, no need to explain.--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Can we like semi-protect this article or something similar to it? too many ANON users are changing correct info and they engage in vandalism --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 20:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
whoever made the map, PUT ALL THE SPANISH POSSESIONS that belonged ONCE to spain in ONE COLOUR NOT IN TWO Cosialscastells (talk) 12:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
OK , i made a new map showing New guinea in pink as it was claimed by right of discovery and also the molucca islands but i have removed Indochina as Ferrick says it lacks reference or sources...--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 13:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
this map looks really good EHT, but where is Charolais? the french territory adquired by spain in the Treaty of the Pyrenees? and the french comté should be a little more bigger... also why you excluded the portuguese overseas possesions from the spanish empire? i can't understand a thing, why the territories of the holy roman empire are not included? the holy roman emperor was spanish(charles I), he always used the spanish language and he was the king of Spain, before being the emperor of the HRE. from britannica: The grandson of Ferdinand and Isabella became the most powerful ruler in Europe. He was Charles I of Spain, better known as the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. In the reign of Charles V, Spain became master of nearly half the world. Charles ruled Spain, Naples and Sicily, the duchy of Milan, and the Netherlands and was the imperial lord of Germany as well as of the New World
Thanks to Charles V and his son Phillip II of Spain, Spain became the most powerful empire in the 15th till the 17th centuries.
spain was a big enterprise with the holy roman empire under Charles V.(Charles I of Spain) all the spanish territories goberned by spanish kings counts actually as spanish possesion, so the spanish king was the king of spain and he ruled mostly of Europe being the emperor of the HRE, also the most important battles of the spanish empire under Charles V(Pavía) (Mühlberg) (Nordlingen) were won by spanish troops and troops from the HRE as well.
IMO,somebody have to do a wiki-page of the Spanish Empire under the SPANISH KING Charles V The empire on which the sun never sets. it would be the three or the second most largest empire in the world, after the british.Cosialscastells (talk) 18:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Yea thanks :) i have fixed the France-comchte borders a little more and its more corret now than before.
Yes i was thinking of proposing something similar. I was thinking of including the HRE but in a different color and explaining it or just color the Haspsburg lands of Charles V (Carlos I of Spain) in Europe just as Phillip's II and his descendants territories are shown in europe as being part of a "Spanish State".
I do want to include the portuguese colonies during the Iberian Union , but too many hispanophobes are in the english wiki and they don't have a neutral point of view so they can't accept the real magnitude that was the Spanish Empire, the portuguese colonies were "spanish" for 60 yrs like it or not .--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 21:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
include the HRE in other colour and explaining it is a nice idea though , and include as well the portuguese overseas territories, it does not have sense to include Portugal without its colonies.. or portugal never sailed around the world? please.. this is just ridiculus....the "spanish enterprise/empire" began with Charles I of Spain (Charles V) and was one of the greatest empires in the world. Cosialscastells (talk) 22:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
O.K. let's start the topic , let's give it 5 days and if no opposition then we switch to a spanish empire map showing the portuguese colonies--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 22:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
To Pat: a military force on the ground tends to be quite influential. (It's why it's used!)
And as Blueboar explained to you at the NOR noticeboard, an original map can be created by us if its purpose is to illustrate reliable information.
However, I agree with EHT's decision to remove Indochina.
Cosialscastells and EHT, maybe we should hold off on including the Portuguese colonies, because Ogre has promised to fix that.
To Infinauta: I agree about page protection if all we're getting is editwarring from these newly-arrived users. There's supposed to be a truce in place. I hope none of us chooses to enlist the help of edit warriors on this dispute. SamEV (talk) 22:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Cosialscastells, Philip II ruled a far larger empire than his father. But each of their articles should definitely contain a map of their worldwide domains. Currently, only Charles' has a map, and it's only of his European domains. SamEV (talk) 23:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I already knew it SamEV,Charles III of spain had a largest empire than philip's colonial empire the americas/asia. Charles I of Spain once said, in my empire the sun never sets :-)Cosialscastells (talk) 23:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
EHT, I think you should color in the Pacific Ocean, the "Spanish Lake", as so many sources call it, just as the Indian Ocean is on the Portuguese Empire map, since that ocean was similarly dominated by the Portuguese navy for a time.
Also, why do you have the western Districts (Kreise) of Lower Saxony colored red? Did you mean to color in the Spanish territory in the Rhineland? This was a thin strip running along the borders of the Low Countries in the 17th century ([70]). It includes at least the following Districts, in whole or part (the numbers in parentheses are the District numbers in the Wiki image next to the state's name):
in North Rhine-Westphalia (Image:North_rhine_w_map.jpg): Viersen (29), Kleve (13), Heinsberg (9), Aachen (1), Düren (4), and Euskirchen (7); in Rhineland-Palatinate (Image:Rhineland_p_map.png): Districts Bitburg-Prüm (8), Trier-Saarburg (23), Bernkastel-Wittlich (6), and Vulkaneifel (10). SamEV (talk) 00:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I will tell you now that I oppose the addition of the Portuguese colonies, not on the basis of your totally incorrect accusations of hispanophobia, but on the basis that most historians go as far as saying that Portuguese colonies were ruled by the Habsburg monarch, The habsburgs WERE SPANISH THATS WHY THEY ARE KNOWN AS SPANISH HABSBURGS. the Red Hat of Pat Ferrick, the habsburg monarchy were spanish and austrian, the portuguese overseas territories were under the RULE OF SPANISH KINGS (HABSBURGS)!!!! i agree with u samEV, but if you include all the territories of charles V in to the spanish crown, the spanish empire would be bigger. Cosialscastells (talk) 00:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Cosialcastells: ok we have agreed to include the HRE in the Spanish Empire :)
SamEV : The northwestern part of Germany is colored because it was part of the Spanish Netherlands for a time , then the United Provinces lost it , shite i can't remember this part too good. I'll remove it if you want because i dont know where to find sources to show you but it was for sure a part of the spanish territories.
Yes thanks for the Rhine part , i'll color it later :)
Yes i was thinking of coloring the trade routes like in the Portuguese empire has it in blue...The pacific (acapulco via philippines) was a spanish lake for a time , and the atlantic too (spanish main, Northen europe atlantic coast, new world-europe routes , etcs.) . I'll make sure to color it .
One more thing SamEV we can't rely on The Ogre forever , he is really busy according to him and if i understand correctly he hasn't been around here for a WHILE now , so i suggest we break off and do our own thing , c'mon wikipedia has no rulers , we are all equal and we are entitled to our own knowledge and it is our duty to provide the readers with the info as fast as possible :)
Red Hat of Ferrick : i wasn't specifically talking about you but i see your own consience has revealed itself lol i guess i went fishing without bait and i caught me a fish eh? :)
Anyways yes funny those historians are not spanish ! they are english and dutch and portuguese! they have the most straight point of view ever! don't they?!
NO! the PE belonged to the SE , why do we show the Aragonese colonies and not the Portuguese colonies? this is bullshit to me , we should show all colonial and territorial lands that ever belonged to spanish kings who ruled over a united spanish state , therefore it was "spanish" .
Gretings to all--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 03:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
SamEV , the spanish territories goberned by spanish kings (related centuries) count as spanish possesion!(at least those of Philip II),His father was the king of Spain and he ruled mostly of Europe being the emperor of Spain and the HRE together,the spanish empire have the same sense under Charles V & Phillip II. It doesn't have sense to add the territories of Phillip II and not to add those of Charles I, since they had the same "emprise", and both were kings of Spain. And the most important thing,SPAIN BECAME A POWERFUL EMPIRE UNDER CHARLES I , not under his son. Cosialscastells (talk) 12:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thumb|600px|right|
It's a start :
In red: actual possesions .
In pink : claimed/explored/trade .
In green: boundaries of Holy Roman Empire at the time of Charles V , and in red (within green boundaries) his personal possesions , which most of them would be passed to Phillip II and his descendants.
This map is not final .--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 13:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
its okay IMO, but i'd add the HRE in pink. Cosialscastells (talk) 15:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
O.K. what about the updated map?
In red: actual possesions .
In pink : claimed/explored/trade .
Bright pink: boundaries of Holy Roman Empire at the time of Charles V , and in red (within bright pink boundaries) his personal possesions , which most of them would be passed to Phillip II and his descendants and in light pink (within bright pink boundaries) the HRE that didn't belonged to Charles V per se.
nice work, keep it up! :-) Cosialscastells (talk) 21:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Also the book Imperial Spain, by J.H Elliot describes the rise and fall of the spanish empire under leaders such as Charles V.
what's the difference between charles and his son? they ruled the enterprise known as spanish empire... Cosialscastells (talk) 02:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Did the Habsburg empire exist, or it was the Habsburg Monarchy? im not talking about the spanish empire under phillip II, Im talking about the spanish king Charles I and its possesions. GOD.. he ruled spain like his son . If you read some books of ur lovely author Henry Kamen, u will know that the spanish empire was an imperial emprise , including the habsburg and the possesions of the spanish kings. I can't find any map about the european & overseas possesions of Charles V, but every historian knows that the spanish empire began in the union of castile + aragon, and ruled by charles V the empire became the first global empire.
Anyway, someone could do an article of the habsburg empire under charles V and say why it isn't considered as spanish empire if thanks to charles I of spain/charles V Spain began to be one of the first global empires? Cosialscastells (talk) 03:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Are you missing some bolts in your head Ferrick ? there is no such a thing as a "Haspburg Empire", all that belonged to the kings belonged to the state, nobody is saying HRE belonged to "Spain", it belonged to Charles V , thats why in the HRE is in different color in the map, i think we should show it. If you think like that then there is no "spanish empire" from 1516 to 1700 according to your thinking right?--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 20:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh c'mon!! that's the title of a BOOK , in european history there was NO SUCH A THING AS A "HAPSBURG EMPIRE"! the closest thing to that was the HRE and Spain's euro-territories. In european history no state EVER existed with the name of "Haspburg Empire" , D-O Y-O-U U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D??--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 01:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Didn't you READ my comments?? I said no state in europe ever existed with the name of Haspburg Empire and correctly so , what you are showing me is like saying Bourbon Empire, no state such a Hapsburg Empire EVER existed .--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 02:01, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I totally disagree with the inclusion of Portugal and the Portuguese Empire in the map, the Portuguese Empire was ruled only by the Portuguese and separately from the Spanish Empire. The conditions set at the Cortes of Tomar by the Portuguese to recognize Philip as King of Portugal and accepted by him was to rule Portugal and his Empire independently from the Spanish Empire.XPTO (talk) 02:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey XPTO,have u ever heard about the Battle of alcantara? yes, when Spain won the battle and the crowns of both countries were personally united until 1640,yes!!! when portugal rebeled against the spanish for some reason.
why EHT can add the portuguese european territory and not their overseas possesions? because portugal belonged to the habsburg empire too? HAHAHAHAHAH LOL !!!
However, authors like the British historian Henry Kamen contend that these territories were never integrated into a Spanish state and instead formed part of the wider Habsburg possessions. Because of this, many historians use "Habspurg" and "Spanish" almost interchangeably when referring to the dynastic inheritance of Charles V or Philip II.
u british fanboys should know that Henry Kamen is a CLUELESS hispanophobe historian. He said that Spain never existed till the XX century HAHAHHAHA, what about the Ispania of Strabo, the Spania of Artemidorus,the Hispania of Livy ; «Yo són I chomte d’Espanya que apela hom lo chomte de Barcelona» cronichles of Bernat Desclot (1256), the «Quatre reis que ell nomená d’Espanya, qui son una carn e una sang» of Ramón Muntaner (1265) (ESPANYA = Spain in catalan language)... stop believing in Kamen PROPAGANDA, all the spanish historians laughs at him. Also he lives in catalonia supporting the basque/catalonian nationalism. Cosialscastells (talk) 03:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Pat, EuroHistoryTeacher, and I reached a compromise to put the Iberian Union map in the lead next to the current map, until Ogre produces his map. The caption on the Iberian Union map will state the fact that sources are divided over whether the Portuguese Empire was ruled by Spain during the Union. Opinions? SamEV (talk) 03:42, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Portugal had a certain independence inside the Empire, but this doesn't mean that it shouldn't form a part of the Spanish Empire. All the territories had autonomy: Aragon, Catalonia, Sicily, the Netherlands, even the American Viceroyalties. The King of Spain annexed Portugal and not upside-down. Please don't upload more wrong versions Cosialscastells (talk) 04:22, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I'll say yes JUST TO SEE HOW IT WOULD LOOK , but if i dont like it , can we switch it?
Like Cosialcastells says ALL TERRITORIES GOVERNED BY SPANISH KINGS HAD AUTONOMY, ALL HAD THEIR OWN CURRENCY , LAWS , CUSTOMS ETC, ALL OF THEM EVEN HAD SPANISH VICEROYS!!
what the hell makes portugal different?! they all belonged to a "spanish state" , portugal adopted the laws and customs and framework of the spanish monarchy when Phillip II became king , the portuguese even call this period of history the "spanish captivity"!--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 17:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
No im not the boss and i know CosialCastells won't like it either , stop twisting my intentions , don't be a snake. I want to see first how it would look , otherwise why comprmise?! why would you buy a car you never seen before ?! , a analogy--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 18:05, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, I find EHT's request for a preview reasonable, and I hope Pat does as well.
On switching the map, I think the answer is "it depends". As much as I respect Ogre, I am concerned by the fact that he hasn't given updates on his progress. It would be unreasonable to advocate that we wait for him forever, so I think a reasonable time limit is definitely a good idea. Pat found my initial proposal of three weeks unacceptable. But how about a higher number? Again, it cannot be Pat's position that we wait, say, 6 months, let alone a year!
Anyway, back to the preview thing. What do you think, Pat? SamEV (talk) 00:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The two maps are up; if anyone hasn't, take a look.
They could also be displayed adjoiningly (like the images on infoboxes), with the captions at the bottom: instead of the current way, wherein each map is wholly separate. SamEV (talk) 18:05, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to revert this again (today, anyway) as I don't want to violate 3RR. But this edit by EuroHistoryTeacher is (a) too much detail for an introduction (b) misleading and perhaps most importantly (c) total and utter gibberish [75]. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
EHT, u forgot to put a part of the aragonese empire that once belonged to the spanish kings before the union of both crowns in 1492. In 1345 the aragonese empire conquered thanks to the Almogavars (catalan and aragonese soldiers) a part of greece (Duchy of Athens & Duchy of Neopatria these territories were administrated by the Aragonese Crown during a long period of time. Besides some parts of Turkey that disputed Spaniards (Aragonese and Catalan) against the Byzantine ones.
per example, the title of Duke of Neopatria was assumed the year the 1377 by king spanish king Pedro Ceremonious and was conserved within the real prerogatives until the reign of Charles II of Spain.
references inside. Cosialscastells (talk) 16:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes i know of the Crown of Aragon but this was before any form of "Spanish Empire"...
Its like saying the British Empire owned half of France (which the planagenets did in the 14th and previous centuries.--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 17:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
i knew! but the duchy of neopatria stayed under spanish sovereignty, till the reign of charles II, it shouldn't count?:-) Cosialscastells (talk) 18:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Relly ? until Charles II who ruled until 1700? can you provide references please :)? i knew the duchy of Neopatria was spanish for some time but not until the 1700's , im very interested and if it stayed until the end of the reign of Charles II , i'll make sure to include it.--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 18:59, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I can't find any source about it yet.. anyway what do you think about the iberian union translated text and the sources in?. Do you agree? Cosialscastells (talk) 20:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey Trasamundo!, i just translated it is a nice text and proves what portugal was! , i didn't said "I MADE THIS TEXT", anyway don't get mad! :-) Hasta luego Cosialscastells (talk) 23:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Both of your edits on this talk page are extremely hard to follow, because you do not follow the Wikipedia convention of indenting your posts. Can you please do so? All it takes is the use of colons - please make an effort to do so. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 21:56, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
"done". Cosialscastells (talk) 23:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
No, you do the same sometimes , so stop being a hypocrit--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 23:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Of course, that is as simple as the fact that 2 plus 2 is four, in Spanish history. The only reason that the parts of the Portuguese empire are not in the map is because of one of the greatest problems in Wiki: Nationalism. The nationalism of some Portuguese (contributors who do not mind to falsify history to suit their infantile aims and the nationalism of some English speaking people who do not mind to falsify history as well, to follow the tradition of their countrymen or language mates, should we say, the belittlement of Spain. So, they will do it with all their power, even denying what is written in black and white. So, some serious users here please add those territories to the map. Enough with the falsification of history. Goebbles, should not be the reference here. Why do I mention Goebles?, because he once said: "We do not like history, let us falsify it". The poor German Nazis did not have much to feel proud of in their history. Believe it or not, the falsification of history that is being attempted here is not that far away from Goebles and is part of the ever lingering effects of the black legend, that has many different sides and angles. Use facts, stop sophistry in Wiki. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.35.76.150 (talk) 09:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
[[82]] (resume parafox):
I think the sources are clear enough. Go ahead with the map. Jan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.153.159.64 (talk) 16:57, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
NO COMPROMISE WAS EVER REACHED! where the hell did you get this from?! who said this?! NOT ME or anybody else here except you Red Hat Ferrick--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 22:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Ok here is the map we are thinking of using (instead of 2 maps), what do you guys think?
[[:Image:Spanish Empire total.PNG|thumb|400px|right|An anachronous map of the Spanish Empire (1492-1975). Red - actual possessions; Pink - explorations, areas of influence and trade and claims of sovereignty. Purple - Portuguese colonies during the period of the Iberian Union (1581-1640). The empires remained legally separate, but historians are divided over whether the Spanish Empire included the Portuguese Empire de facto.]] .]] --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 22:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
None of us agreed to that compromise , can you quote my words to see that i did?
The nature of wiki is ever changing , don't be ridiculous . THERE IS SCHOLARLY CONSENSUS , don't you see all the 500+ sources you have been showed? those words are Sam's EV which i have already changed--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 22:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Pat writes: " If there is no scholarly consensus, then Wikipedia should default to not showing them."
Pat, I hope you remember we have a policy called Neutral point of view. It demands that all important points of view be expressed. Please stop repeating your minimalist position, which violates that policy.
At the same time, I urge the others to resist maximalism. SamEV (talk) 23:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Ferrick drop the bullshit ok? you are very rude and you act in dictatorial manners , you have been told of your ownership issues everywhere , in here , british empire talk page or even your own user page , and you have been told this not just by non-brits but even by your own countrymen , listen to people man you make yourself not likeable , and also remember sophistry is not allowed.
How many times you have accussed me of being a sockpuppet? about 5 times , even the first day i came here you were already throwing insults at me (and you still do), so please don't act like a victim , don't cry wolf, you make yourself look like a clown and btw don't even claim this is a personal attack because is not , im just reminding you what people think and has said about you because of your unnacceptable behavior , greetings--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 00:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
"I'm actually done discussing this with you and EHT now"
Your choice, Pat. I took on my fellows here in order to accomodate your concerns but you ended up throwing a tantrum and turning on me. Hope your happy with the ultimate outcome of your decision. SamEV (talk) 00:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
i don't think he overreacted but he rather subcumbed to your rudeness , thats how us users feel when you try to walk all over us, it gets really annoying and you force us users to give up a discussion with you Ferrick, you need to be civil --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 01:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
OK, this has gone on long enough now. First a compromise is proposed, then within 24 hours the compromise seems to have been forgotten and we're now proposing to add the map that was disputed in the first place. I am going to request dispute resolution, as this situation is getting ridiculous. Outside, neutral, opinion is probably best here anyway to prevent us from going around in circles. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 22:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
A compromise was PROPOSED but not accepted. This map was never disputed , what are you talking about? are you lost? If that "neutral" opinion won't allow us to show the PE in the SE, then i oppose as so many users will--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 22:45, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Then please provide them so these nationalists can appreciate the magnitude of the SE :)--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 01:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Please put up the one map, EHT. It's been proven enough. Use the caption Pat agreed to in the Iberian Union map. I don't think Pat is acting in good faith any more, so there's no sense in continuing to engage him as if he were. Let's put an end to what has now become a charade. SamEV (talk) 01:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Done Sam :) im sorry Ferrick i really don't want to do this but we have to show history as it has been presented to us, many users in the past have provided sources but you can't accept them , so we'll show the SE with the captions you agreed to --EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 01:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
WHAT????!!!!! Ferrick put a label in the map saying actual accuracy is disputed!! disputed why and what?! we are showing in the caps that historians are DIVIDED over the issue , all the map info is correct , why the TAG?! im removing it unless you prove the map (and captions) are not accurate Ferrick--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 02:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
bla bla bla Ferrick got get the Supreme Court if you want , me and Sam with our historical facts can win this easy, i don't even know whats your arguement here!!!! you are just ranting, nothing else--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 02:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
here another source
Again,just to remind people that I support Euroteacher`s position (and the majority here by the way). Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Fixed up the map a little in some parts like in south africa, east indies , calcutta etc .
Source = Education Department of Spain : [84]--EuroHistoryTeacher (talk) 23:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC) ---
Very good. Congratulations for providinf online sources to what anyone familiar with Spanish history knows. Keep all those sources at hand, because knowing the agenda of some contributors here, I would not be surprised to see the map changed again. These people wait to come back again when they think no one is watching anymore. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.16.121 (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)