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Those who support the use of this term seem to be in a minority even in the USA and Israel, and it has *no* support anywhere else in the world, it seems, so it is hard to make this article much more neutral than it is.
Can someone from the Texas Nazi Impire, or Jerusalem Post, add some kind of defense of this insanity? We wouldn't want to be accused of having a bias here. ;=(
The appended sentence from the article doesn't seem to make sense if you combine it with the fact that they are called illegal combatants. Ie: how can you both be an illegal combattant, and not a combatant at all. And there has to be a differentiation between the logical use of the word combatant and the legal use. (Anyone who engages in combat is a combatant in the logical sense, but not necessarily in the legal sense).
WDYT? --snoyes 04:20 Mar 31, 2003 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reference to the Israeli legislation introduced in 2000? Chadloder 04:28 Mar 31, 2003 (UTC)
I have removed the following recent addition to the article. It is not factual, it is POV, and really does nothing to inform or educate the reader. Chadloder 01:36 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)
I have also reverted Gretchen's edit which modifies a direct quote from the ex parte Quirin ruling. Take a look at the diff in the history and tell me if you agree that the edit of the direct quote was not valid.
I removed the recentj edition because it has the form of an argumentative editorial. While some of this material may have a place in the article, it must be presented as the opinion of a named competent party and not just presented as factual background. In fact it is highly contentious and in some aspects exceedingly doubtful. (I suspect copyvio too.) --Zero 12:04, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
In excising David Newton's entire edit, the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater. The concept, if not the exact term "illegal combatant" goes way back in military law and practice and treaty obligations. Without this information, the article reads that the "illegal combatant" concept began unilaterally with the US Supreme Court in WWII--it did not. Much of the remaining article is a POV on behalf of those opposed to the concept.
I added citations and information, and cut most of David's arguably POV material.
I also removed this paragraph:
"Established approach" Citation? "generally accepted" By whom? Cecropia 00:46, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have removed the following section titled Protest until someone can prove that this actually took place. I cannot find any corroboration of it via Google. Chadloder 20:31, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)
Some citizens have declared solidarity with prisoners accorded this status, especially by declaring their profession to be 'illegal combatant' on official forms, especially if arrested during anti-war protest or anti-globalization movement activities. This practice is most common among anarchists, situationists, and Marxists.
Those are, for example, not being deliberately targeted by military action and other traditional protections.
I couldn't decipher the meaning of this sentence within its context. Does this sentence make sense to anybody? Mdchachi|Talk 18:22, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
As the US Supreme Court ruling was in 1942 which was before the final draft of the 1949 GCIII, which is treaty ratified by the USA. Until the Supreme Court rules on a new case, with this ratified treaty taken into account (specifically Art.4.and Art 5) there will be contradictions in US law.
BTW GCIII Art 5 Second Paragraph states:
This is not somthing that the US seems to be doing at the current time although they are treay bound to do so.
The long held maritime practise of flying false colours is also accepted as a legitimate land war practise: See the Nuremberg TRIAL OF OTTO SKORZENY AND OTHERS http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/skorzeny.htm
Wing Commander Tommy Yeo-Thomas worked for SOE code name (White Rabbit) and was a major player in building up the Maquis. He was captured, tortured, and sent to Buchenwald from which he escaped. He testified at Nuremberg for prosecution against the guards at Buchenwald. He testified for the defence of Otto Skorzeny. http://www.anybook4less.com/detail/0753150492.html
His description of what the SOE did to kill Germans and destroy German bases left the court in a position that if they found Otto Skorzeny guilty then they would have to try many highly decorated Allies. The best source for this is "Commando Extraordinary Otto Skorzeny" by Charles Foley. http://www.noontidepress.com/catalog/0261.html
Philip Mon May 10 23:22 NZST 2004
This url points to an article which argues that Taliban combatants may indeed have been wearing what in Afghanistan is accepted as uniforms by the local combatants on both sides.
Even if they were not wearing uniforms, there are other sections of GCIII under which they might fall and so be POWs (eg:.GCII.4.4. "Persons who accompany the armed forces", 4.5, 4.6 "spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces", 4.B.1, and for some of them 4.C/33(chaplains)). Until there is a legally constituted tribunal to decide the issue the US Administration is in breach of GCIII which is a treaty ratified by the USA.
There is also provisions about how people should be treated regardless of whether they are POWs or not. GCIII 3.1 "Persons taking no active part in the hostilities,[snip change of status in armed forces], shall in all circumstances be treated humanely,[snip]". GCIII 3.1.c[ to this end] "Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment". 3.1.d "The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples." I think current US Administration treatment of "unlawful combatants" in Guantanamo Bay, is in breach of this, because the USA defines its self as civilized but it is denying "GCIII" "persons" judicial guarantees which all but two of their own citizens enjoy.
When Napoleon came back from Elbe the Allies declared war on him, not France. So there is a precedence for states declaring war on individuals. The fact that the USA Executive says that they are at war with the al-Qaeda means that they can argue that the 2 US detainees held on the main land are "unlawful combatants", but in doing so they bind themselves with the treaties of the Geneva Conventions. This would not be true if they were to call it a police action. IMHO the sooner the US Supreme court rules on these cases (and considers how GCIII 1949 treaty obligations effect the rulings of 1942 Quinn Case) the better.
Philip Tue May 11 NZST
I do not wish to argue the right and wrongs of whether a Mad Muller should or should not be treated as chaplain, or if a detainees had a gun etc. I just think that the US administration should follow the GCIII. which means that they should hold a "competent tribunal" to decide if these people are POWs and until such time they should hold them as if they are POWs. If they are found to be 'unlawful combatants' and they have committed a crime then they should be handed over to a competent court for trial, if they have not committed a crime then they should either be defined as POWs or be released. If the US Administration does not do this then they are in breach of their treaty obligation.
I would appreciate it if some of these points were added to the main page. Particularly one that points out that US domestic law was decided in 1942 which was before the Nuremberg trials and GCIII in 1949. Without that knowledge the concept of 'unlawful combatants' seems odd -- Philip Tue May 11 NZST (2)
In the area of who should be considered a POW, hasn't The Second Hague Convention of 1899 has been superceded by GCIII and GCIV? If so shouldn't the section in which Hague is used be replaced with reference to the Geneva Conventions? Philip Baird Shearer 03:59, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
As an exmple GCIII Art 4.. Philip Baird Shearer 05:25, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Although the term unlawfull may be mapped, legally, to the term "illegal combatant", I think a large number of people, including contributors to this page, and I know for certain myself, ares sensitive to the different connotations of the word, but relectant to discuss this in the article. Perhaps we should bring this issue to the surface here? I understand the connotations to differ in this respect: "illegal" is an explicit and objective adjective, saying the act that has been done is not legal; that it is contrary to one or more laws. "unlawful", on the other hand, refers to an individual rather than an act or phenomena, and is a judgement of that person, rather than a logical statement concerning law. An unlawfull person is a person who is not law-faring, as an unpious person is a person who is not god-faring. I believe that these differences are quite significant. the word "unlawfull" is a judgement of a person that cannot be substantiated, and dehumanizes the person that it refers to, yet makes no specific claims of illegal acts. Illegal does not charaterize a peson or dehumanize them in any way, rather it makes an objective statement about an act or phenomena. What do dictionaries say about the two terms? Kevin Baas 01:16, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Please see the discussion immediately above. Since there is no "official" term, we could use any. "Illegal" and "Unlawful" are most common, known to most of the general public; "Unprivileged" probably most accurate and neutral, but least known. All the others could, of course, be redirects.
All terms describe an individual who engages in combat but is not eligible in treaty law or tradition for the designation of a belligerent, and therefore the special legal protections of that designation. Terms are in alphabetical order. -- Cecropia | Talk 02:40, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Illegal combatant
Unlawful combatant
Unprivileged combatant
Comments or second choices
Since the US-led military campaign in Afghanistan, The US Government started to use the term "unlawful combatant" because that term has a meaning under US domestic law (ex parte Quirin). Most of the literature about the issue uses the term "unlawful combatant" (even if it is only to criticise the term). So given that this is an on-line facility, I think the best name to use is "unlawful combatant". It would probably be a good idea though to add a paragraph explaining that this is perceived by some people to be a pejorative term. Philip Baird Shearer 07:16, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Agreed. Also there should be a brief mention and description of the other terms. Kevin Baas 22:57, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not voting (since I declared myself agnostic--whatever everyone else decides is fine by me) but I do want to make a comment. If we don't use "unprivileged" (since noone seems to know it except those who have had to work with it or are repositories of recondite knowledge) I would probably prefer "unlawful" since it has the sense of being "outside law." "Illegal" sort of suggests that a cop comes and arrests you--it's not like that. An unprivileged combatant who manages to survive the war without capture and ends up on the winning side (or sometimes doesn't even end up on the winning side) is not going to prosecuted. I'm just trying to deal with the symantics of the thing. -- Cecropia | Talk 23:14, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
Given the lack of information, there is some question in some cases as to whether they are combatants of any sort. - `Hephaestos|§
Since the only people interested seem to think Unlawful is best and no one seems to like Illegal, I will change the title. -- Cecropia | Talk 13:46, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
The material recently added needs some vetting, some coherence and some background. I don't have the time to go over right now, but among its problems are the fact that it puts the cart before the horse, defining lawful and unlawful combatants backwards, i.e., if you're a POW you're lawful, if you're not a POW, you're unlawful. Rather it is the other way around, your status (lawful, unlawful, protected person) is specified by Hague (not Geneva), after that determination is made, then the issue of POW status comes up. -- Cecropia | Talk 23:20, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I assume the paragraph we're talking about is:
'Articles 27 and 32 of GC4 have been violated recently by U.S. armed forces, in following orders from high-ranking U.S. military officers, specifically in abusing prisoners in Iraq. On June 21, 2004, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Anon warned U.N. Security Council members not to grant the United States another exemption from prosecution by the International Criminal Court, stating that it was wrong, especially after the abuse of prisoners in Iraq.
There's also some major changes recorded at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Unlawful_combatant&diff=4376392&oldid=4375657 -- it seems well-intentioned, but someone more familiar than I with treaty law should check it. -- DavidCary 03:47, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it was a pretty big edit.
The main point for me is that GCIII 4 and 5 are controlling now for eligibility for POW status, and therefore by implication lawful combatant status. Use of the more limited Hague II Article 1 definition is equivalent to GCIII 4. A 1 & 2, excluding all of the others, especially GCIII 4. A 6 and GCIII 5. To use the superceded definitions reads like a political act.
My paragraph:
is part analysis, and part factual. While I feel strongly about the analysis, I also agree with Kevin Baas editing it out, at least until a more balanced analysis can be done.
The point I am trying to get to is that if we do not hold ourselves accountable for our actions, if we do not try to limit the impact of war, then we ourselves are guilty and we ourselves will pay a moral price, if we have any fond hopes of retaining or regaining any status as the good guys.
I do not agree with Cecropia eliminating the factual portion of that paragraph. I believe it to be factually true and extremely relevant, given that the term "unlawful combatant" basically relates to one case of Nazi saboteurs in the U.S. and the current detainees from Afghanistan and Iraq. A wider discussion or a note with a link to a page with a wider discussion, I could certainly agree with. But it is a fact proven at court martial and in movie theaters across the country, and since there are so few detainees with unlawful combatant status, it is relevant that so many (relatively) have been subject to this treatment.
I am changing the wording The treatment of unlawful combatants back to The legal status of unlawful combatants
For precisely the reason given by Cecropia when he made his change the legal definition of unlawful combatant is specified in international law...
This section is here because the US has not followed its international treaty obligations (as mentioned in this document) in GCIII Art5. [A]s their status has [not] been determined by a competent tribunal (GCIII Art 5), so they are not being held legally as unlawful combatants. If I am wrong and they have been in front of a competent tribunal, then they should be held under the condition specified in GCIV Art 5 until tried and found guilty of a crime when they should be processed throught the US penal system (no unusual punishment). Philip Baird Shearer 14:39, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Before the recent US court cases, the US supreme court had not visited this since before GCIII, it would seem to me that the most recent US supreme court cases rulings should be mentioned in passing along, with the original case and they all should all be moved down to near the end of the article into a US specific section.Philip Baird Shearer 14:39, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This was taken from the GB page it holds the information with the stuff already on the page to update the US S.Court view of an unlawful combatant with consideration of the 1949 GC treaty obligations. Any one want to write a US specific section and place it just before the Criticism section? Philip Baird Shearer 04:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State."
So, as I understand the interpretaion of "unlawful combatant", and why that abridges the human rights of the prisoner, is that the State has a right to beat the prisoners because not beating them would endanger the State? Kevin Baas | talk 19:57, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)
Depends if you think that beating someone is consistent with the later clause in the same article (GVIV art 5): In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity
Also there is the point that for many states they have their own domestic laws and international treaty commitments which forbids beating prisoners under any circumstances.
For example the official US methods of interrogation were developed by the British in the early 1970s to "question" people suspected of having information useful to the security of the State, in Northern Ireland. These (very effective) methods known as "sensory deprivation techniques" (and in court as "the five techniques") -- wall-standing, hooding, loud white noise, deprivation of sleep, deprivation of food and drink -- were designed not to meet the UK legal definition of tourture. Ireland took Britain to European Court of Human Rights and in a landmark judgement "Ireland v. the United Kingdom" January 18, 1978, the court ruled
On March 2, 1972, in response to the "Parker report" the UK government had abandoned the use of the techniques and issued directives to the the UK Security forces which to this day prohibit the use of the five techniques. Philip Baird Shearer 11:39, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The phrase repeatedly used by the Bush regime is "enemy combatant." I am confused as to why "unlawful combatant" has replaced it in this article. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:02, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I think they're different. I've fixed the redirect with a stub at Enemy combatant. To me, an "unlawful combatant" would be a civilian who attacks military (rather than military vs. military). So in that case, civilians in Iraq would be "Unlawful Combatants" during the Iraq war and at the time Saddam Hussein was President. They would be Iraqi citizens fighting the invading US/UK army. Vietnamese citizens fighting the US army during the Vietnam war would also be "unlawful combatants" in that sense.
Currently, rebels in Fallujah are murderers, terrorists, seditious conspirators etc. according to whatever Iraqi law they are breaking. In that case it is civilian vs. civilian, as the US has succeeded in "regime change" and are now not fighting Iraq, nor occupying Iraq, but helping the Iraqi government (such as it is).
"Enemy combatants" as defined by the US, are not civilian vs. military, but civilian vs. civilian (incl. government). Of course, civilian vs. civilian (should) fall under the normal rule of law, but the US government seems to have an arbitrary method of determining who is an "Enemy combatant"--as far as I know, it is simply an executive order with no judicial oversight. I think that is the distinction, and I think it's a very important distinction.--Ben 10:50, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Surely an enemy combatant is a combatant fighting for the other side in an armed conflict? So in the Falklands War enemy combatants were for the British members of the Argentinian armed forces. Unlawful combatants are not civilians. It includes people who have breached the laws of war: fighting under a flag of truce, or mercenaries, or a member of a militia fighting out of uniform, (unless the parties have signed Protocol I), or a person fighting without a command structure etc. Philip Baird Shearer 13:55, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
THIS IS AN ARCHIVE. PLEASE DO NOT POST HERE. GO TO Talk:Unlawful combatant INSTEAD.