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I'm glad other readers have spotted the ad-like qualities of this piece - my first reaction when I read it was "WOW! How on EARTH did they think they would get away with that????". Quite frankly I think it reads more like an ad than most other unashamedly commercial ads. IMHO, its appalling, and in itself is enough to put me off the product...ESPECIALLY as there are lots of FREE solutions out there that do just as much, and don't blow so hard.
I LOVE wikipedia....PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont let it get subverted by naked self-aggrandizement and commercialism like this!
Is there any chance of adding some flash videos of interviews with a representative of the company that produced the software? And, possibly, a Blog section in which they could write weekly entries about their current activities, musing and other products they wish to promote?
Seriously, it's interesting that Wikipedia is developing into such a transparent advertising tool. Played carefully, there could be potential to rise financially in the way that Google has done. If the originators do not wish this to happen they would seem to have an interesting challenge on their hands. But perhaps advertising is part of the long-term plan?
People with a vested interest in putting across a 'message' (advert) - companies, self-promoters, agents, etc. - put large amounts of time and / or money into advertising. Wikipedia is a free, easy platform for this. Is there a wish or a way to exercise any meaningful control of direction in such a 'democratic' environment?
(Written by a Wikipedia user who watches with interest the slow, steady shift from information to message). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.192.235 (talk) 09:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Are there any sites where you can download free add-ons?
Someone keeps removing the link to www.vBwebmaster.com --- why?
Hopefully I've improved the NPOV in the links section by explicitly listing official sites and grouping the unofficial ones in the relevant Google Directory entry. This way we link to unofficial sites but prevent the article becoming a collection of unofficial links. --83.98.253.113 13:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
It's good to have an article on vBulletin, but it's missing quite a bit; the history of its creation is an interesting story. The article has a few biased aspects.
"AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) integration for easy moderation."
"For full list of features" link to vB site shouldn't be in the article body.
Is the pricing really necessary? It makes the article look like an ad. Maybe just mention the fact that there's two different license types.
It's also weritten in the second person, when it shuld be in the third.
vBulletin 3.5 has ben released today, updated the article to that effect.
Is it really necessary to have anything besides the developer staff list--if even that? It doesn't really serve a purpose because most users will not know (or care) who those people are, unless they are part of the vB.com/vB.org community. Rob.daemon 09:06, 6 Nov. 2005 (US/Pacific)
I made this Borgs8472 22:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
"Neutralizing" some of the article language as time permits. I run a vBulletin 3.5-based board and love the software, but this article should avoid superlatives and anything resembling marketing-speak.
Shouldn't there be more information? I know, add it myself ...
Dates of version upgrades and new features added with each upgrade. Origins and history of vBulletin (the UBB roots). Impex. Sctipt, CMS and MediaWiki integration.
Again, this shouldn't be an ad! vBulletin is one of amny excellent message board systems out there.
This was originally in the article; I've removed it because we're supposed to avoid self-references, and also because it's poorly formatted. æle ✆ 01:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The external links section has become quite the hot-spot for changes. People continually add and remove their site's links and it's rather annoying because there is no hard-and-fast rule for what can and what can and cannot go in that section. I think that the rule should be this: only officially Jelsoft-recognized sites should be placed there. That limits it to: www.vbulletin.com, www.vbulletin.org, www.vbulletin-germany.com, and www.vbulletin-chinese.com.
The two foreign-language ones are recognized here. And www.vbulletin.org is recognized here (see the "vBulletin Customization @ vBulletin.org).
That's how I think it should be implemented: only if there is a link on the official vB site should a link be placed in this section. Comments? Rob.daemon 20:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
It says clearly that only links to official vB sites should be posted, and if you posted it with the argument "www.vbwebmaster.com is the only forum dedicated to vbulletin administrators. There is no such forum that is jelsoft recognized. This is an important resource for vBulletin owners and those considering owning a vBulletin." it is to promote your site. Do not re-add it please. Havok (T/C) 21:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I've added the offical vBulletin Germany site for vBulletin modifications (www.vbhacks-germany.com/forum/index.php). See the vBulletin.org forums for more information (vBulletin.org). Near the bottom of the forum list you'll find a link to the site ("vBHacks-Germany.com, Official Support Site for Hacked German vBulletin Boards") 216.215.128.255
IMO there's quite some bias now in the edits and reverts related to the external links. The vBHackers.com link was allowed to stay, while the link to the ODP was reverted by the very same editor who has kept removing other unofficial links, while still allowing vBHackers.com to be linked to. So to maintain a consistant policy, it's either 1) only official links or 2) all types of external links. No exceptions like vBHackers.com can be made, because that's not a consistant policy. My own compromise solution would be to have a link to the ODP for other external resources, which have been validated by ODP staff. I've now removed vBHackers.com and I expect that nobody starts toying around with those external links again. As for the rest, somekind of settlement should be reached. --Rasbelin 19:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
A link to www.vbseo.com should be included in external links. It is by far the largest community dedicated to discussion of vBulletin search engine optimization & has emerged as the source of one of the most widely known plugins and a prominent vBulletin related forum. Its relevance to the topic and value to users interested in vBulletin is clearly equivalent or surpassing in comparison to the other vBulletin external links. There may be some opposition because vBSEO is a commercial plugin. However, this does not discredit its informational value and suitability for inclusion in this wikipedia entry. vBulletin itself is, of course, a commercial plugin. --User:Hybridx 15:02, 17 August 2006 (AST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.118.41 (talk • contribs)
This article is still very incoherent past the first sentence, and some of it reads like ad copy. I'm putting the cleanup tag back on until we can decide on a good cleaned-up version. æle ✆ 23:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the ownership comment from the article text regarding external links. Wikipedia does not endorse only "official" links for anything (or, at least, it shouldn't). Obvious spam should be removed, but care should be taken to not disallow links that may be useful to readers or which aren't an attempt at spam. —Locke Cole • t • c 12:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I've recently been reverting the unoffical links that keep getting added. Why? Because there are tons and tons.. and tons of fan based vB websites. We do not need a list of these 50 websites on the main article page. If we only allow some? Which do we allow? I think that in the long run it will be easier to keep all unoffical sites from this page.--Zachery.Woods 19:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll continue to remove the links untill we get an offical ruling, that or just start adding every other link to every other fan based community.--Zachery.Woods 20:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
This has already been discussed directly above:
Wikipedia does not endorse only "official" links for anything (or, at least, it shouldn't). Obvious spam should be removed, but care should be taken to not disallow links that may be useful to readers or which aren't an attempt at spam.
That is the opinion of Locke Cole, a far more experienced wiki then either you or I. Joeychgo 06:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Well if you insist, off to collect every single vBulletin related website, Odd isn't it how you only add your own websites :)--Zachery.Woods 07:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
First, dont accuse me of spamming. I have added a number of sites to this page and made other edits to the article and have been working on this page for a long time. Joeychgo 19:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The problem to be faced is: how to combine loyalty to one's own tradition with reverence for different traditions. The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with. I have no obligation to add other resources. Only to be certain what I add is a resource. If you have one to share, add it. But please don't edit my entry, leave it as is. Thank you. 71.49.11.104 19:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
According to External links, under the "Links to Normally Avoid" section you should avoid: "A website that you own or maintain (unless it is the official site of the subject of the article). If it is relevant and informative, mention it as a possible link on the talk page and wait for someone else to include it, or include the information directly in the article." So you shouldn't even be adding your own site, you should put it on the talk page and let another Wikipedian decide. And in the above discussions about external links, more people thought it should remain official links only. If no decision can be agreed upon, maybe removing all external links would be the best solution. The most important one (to vbulletin.com) is already in the infobox. All the rest are just extra--at least that's what I think because this fight over external links is stupid. Wikipedia is not a links repository. Rob.daemon 20:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Per WP:EL, I believe some additional unofficial links would be covered by this note under "What should be linked to":
Does this mean the external links section should be allowed to grow into the mess it was a few days ago? No. Occasional pruning, and consistantly checking to see if links pass the Google test are a good idea (in fact, the Google test is a fairly reasonable way of determining if a link is purely promotional; already established sites will have many Google links). Another way of checking is using Alexa to see if the site is known (and if so, if it's popular). I think removing the external links altogether is a bad idea, and similarly, I think limiting it to official links only is a bad idea.
For vBulletin, I'd think one or two links to established extension directories would be appropriate. I don't think links to sites which are "forums for administrators" are helpful (if that's all they have; obviously an admin site that has a directory of extensions/plugins/addons/whatever, a forum, and guides should be considered on the merits of everything it offers).
Anyways, it looks trimmed back enough for now. When it gets to be > 4-6 links, then it might be time to consider what to remove again. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I still believe that the set of links that are listed are directly bais, I've realisticly never visited vBPicGallery, or vBulletin FAQ, being an offical staff member I constantly check over sites from time to time that may have note worthy data to pass back to customers. vBPortal and vBadvanced are also commerical sites that sell products, however these sites have been up for ages and people know them. I used to be somewhat at ends with vBPortal but thats since been resolved. vBFans is just a fan based forum that happens to be centered around vBulletin. I honestly do not find any direct qauiitly in any of the current links. And to Joey, I looked back in the history, at times you were spamming just your link. --Zachery.Woods 09:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
All or nothing Zach. You can't play favorites. I had my site added by someone who thinks it's a useful resource. It's a useful resource because we offer free modifications and support for vBulletin software and the very add on products that you name. I can cite many examples where vBulletin users needed our resource and utilized it as a means to an end when the origial sites failed to be a resource. That fact alone makes the computer help forum and the vBulletin FAQ resource websites that transcend the originals. Others should know they can find help when they don't get help from the original resource.
71.49.11.104
You are right, all or nothing, which is what I've been saying, Either we allow ALL vBulletin related sites that are unoffical, or we allow none. Right now we only have a few. I feel this is wrong, we should list them all if we are going to list one. Who are we to pick and choose which unoffical sites get listed.--Zachery.Woods 18:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
You didn't add it, however noppid probally did, I'm sure I could do a quick ipaddress search? :)--Zachery.Woods 18:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
So how the heck is it that sites that are either unknown to most of the vB community or are "private" sites not considered to be spam? Looks like it's a case of persistence paying off... if somebody edits their site back in every time eventually it'll be allowed but legitimate sites that are well known in the community got knocked off, eh? 198.23.5.10 17:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Wickipedia is NOT a Jelsoft site. Only having "Official" Jelsoft links is inappropriate and not the way Wiki does things. Other related and non spam sites are permissible and appropriate to be listed here. This is a knowlegebase and a resource for users, and listing other websites that have information about vBulletin are entirely appropriate. STOP PLAYING WITH THE EXTERNAL LINKS —Joeychgo
I understand. I wrote this because some people seem to think only 'official' Jelsoft sites should be listed. Thats completely inappropriate. —Joeychgo
An anonymous user repeatedly blanks this page. Suggesting immediate semi-protect.--Frenchman113 on wheels! 13:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
It has been stated numerous times ([1] and [2] were the ones that came to mind) that it does not actually stand for anything. Yes, John did run a forum called VB-WORLD but the official position on the name is that the vBulletin wasn't derived from the forum. Rob.daemon 00:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
It currently reads that two staff members confirmed that the v doesn't stand for anything. However the current staff member Zachary was not staff member at the time. Does he count as a visitor for that or as a staff member? --Mephisteus 11:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Want another 'official' response? freddie says.. Freddie Bingham
Another unofficial explanation that is going around is that V comes after U in the alphabet, like vBulletin came after UBB. 83.84.56.163 14:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think we need an exhaustive list of changes; even the shorter sections for 3.5 seem excessive. æle ✆ 2006-06-03t14:28z
Also, the current sitation stating where the "v" came from is down, that thread most likely got deleted.
Do we really need a link to all the beta-threads? Maybe keeping the last one should be sufficient? Tasja 16:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm going through the "internet forum software" articles hunting down what I feel is a useless line that's appeared in some of them. That line is "it is comparable to other forum software such as Simple Machines Forum, Invision Power Board, phpBB, UBB.threads and MyBulletinBoard". I feel the line should be adjusted to "it is comparable to other forum software" for the following reasons:
I am making this change to other's as I find them (being bold and all) but as this page is protected, I figure some of you may want to discuss it. Yay unto the Chicken 10:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
This has been protected for well over two weeks now, and there is little or no ongoing discussion over disputes. I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway 22:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
This article fails to cite any references, in particular concerning the history section, the trivia, and the criticisms. As such this article needs to be flagged. User:Mikemill 08:17, 28 Auguest 2006 (UTC)
why is vbulletin-faq on the list ? it isn't offical, and the admin think they are god's.. not something you want to associate with Vb IMO
Read up - this has been discussed and decided.
this site shouldn't be allowed here,, the staff is Not helpful
everyone has a personal opinion. The fact that the site has lot's of vBulletin webmasters using it means it is in fact a useful resource.
So do many webmaster sites,, digital point, adminfusion, among others.. yet you don't list them.. vb-faq isn't a good site, ran by arrogant staff who think they are gods..
Yes, but vBulletin FAQ is dedicated to vBulletin forums - You dont have to like the site or the staff, but that doesnt make it not a vBulletin resource. Clearly your editing is motivated by personal feelings and not objectivity. This issue has been discussed and decided. We list non commercial vBulletin dedicated resource sites here. vBfaq is just that. SO is vB hackers and vB advanced, which is why I added them originally --Joeychgo
Can everyone please stop adding and removing links now? It has been discussed before, and the editors of this article have all come to an agreements about which to keep and which to remove. I am reverting all edits as vandalism and warning you accordingly. Thank you. Havok (T/C/c) 10:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
You should add http://forum.vbulletinsetup.com then, the staff is friendly and they helped me with my site even when vbulletin.org wouldn't take time out for a new person like myslef. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.13.42 (talk • contribs)
Please sign your posts by using ~~~~ thank you. Also, please be civil. Havok (T/C/c) 07:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Isn't this an official site? Havok (T/C/c) 10:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
why are the other vb sites removed ? if vbfaq can be up there, so should many other vb help sites..-Brandon
I didnt remove them - someone else put them back though. I cleaned them up and cleaned up the descriptions as well. Can we all leave the links alone now please? Joeychgo 15:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone keeps removing them and I keep putting them all back. Pretty childish if you ask me. Code Monkey 15:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think 7 links is to many for the vB page, there are 100's of other vB admin sites that could be listed, Can't we just keep things how they are right now. It still looks find to me. -Brandon ( btw, I made an account here but forgot the name )
There are many wikipedia pages with far far more links than this. So the standards are based on what? There is no problem here other than topdogitis IMO. Code Monkey 21:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
It was fine, now it seems a few more sites want on.. If you can't have links, then vb.com Should be the only one allowed.. It isn't fair to have one and block out others.. so if you remove some, then remove them all and leave vb.com as the only link. Brandon Sheley
I have removed all links with less then 100,000 hits on Google. I am unbiased in how I did this. If you feel that a link should be there let us first discuss it. There can not be that many links as present before I removed them, it breaks WP:NOT. Havok (T/C/e/c) 12:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
vbfaq has hits from vb-faq and vbw since they merged.. vbulletinsetup will have 100k hits in 2 more months. -Brandon
Im not sure what you meant by hits in google. Might not be the best way - but at least it was unbiased. You'll be there soon brandon Joeychgo 03:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
not sure what you mean by google hits either,, and surely vbhackers gets the same amount of hits at vbfaq - brandon
Joey, stop acting like d**k. You only want the link for the PR, and your results are jacked up, since you just added a full site to yours and therefor your results are off.. Havac, you should at least add vbadvanced and vbhackers ! especially if you let a site with such low quality as vbfaq on the site. There is no way either of those have a lower ranking then his.. if so, you need a new way to measure things.. Thanks-Brandon
it may not be personal, but it sure isn't fair.. vbh and vba should be in that last Waaay b4 your site, and why do you keep removing my links Joey.. This listing isn't accurate at all IMO and several others which I'm sure will talk about it once they see there link is gone but the faq's is still placed.. Can you say Kick Back.......-Brandon
I haven't set a policy, I'm not the ruler of Wikipedia or this article, feel free to disagree with me, but please discuss the adding of new links. Just don't break WP:NOT and WP:EL. Havok (T/C/e/c) 08:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I understand Havok, but the method your using isn't fair to all sites.. even on Joey's site he has made several post saying google is broke. You are getting results from 2 sites when you look up his.. Also vb.org shouldn't be under official links since everyone you ask at the .org says that site isn't an official site of jelsolft..-Brandon
Personally, I dont care how many sites are listed here. I only care that they are non commercial, dedicated to vBulletin and not spammy. People come to this page looking for information about vBulletin. The external links are part of that information.
In the meantime brandon, every time you add your link when this issue isnt settled, you just make yourself look even more biased. Joeychgo 19:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
making myself look bias ? actually no I'm not. unless you mean bias that I think your crooked and hold a holier then thou attitude, then yes I'm very much bias.. I'll be adding my site to this page everyday that I see it missing ;) You do what you must, the scale isn't far but hey, what the hell.. might as well use alexa ranging..-Brandon ps. Joey, don't even act like you didn't do the Exact same thing when you wanted to get your link on this page, I only see what is discussed up ^^ there, I wasn't checking this page last year.
oh sure, thats fair.. you let joey add his site but I can't add mine ? Just let mine stay, vbulletin gets sales because of my site.. Having vbsetup is helping you guys make money.. Isn't that what it's all about ? The talk at vb.com shows that to be correct. -Brandon
Hey, thanks for calling me a dick !.. Stop removing my link, if Joey can have his, then I can have mine.. if you remove our links, remove all of them together, btw.. I haven't vandalized anything, stop putting blame on me for something I haven't done.. I have and will keep adding my site, just like Joey was adding his site, but I haven't touched anyone elses link...-Brandon
your welcome to push your link yourself, I'm not doing anything Joey didn't do to get his link placed, have a good day -Brandon
dmoz. WP:EL recommends it. æ² ✆ 2006‑11‑20t17:45z
the phpnuke page is very similar and has been left alone, why are the links on this site taking a hammering. products that only work with vbulletin should be allowed. Scotsmist 17:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Because some people are the classic wanabe's that have no lot in life so they sit in their underwear at a computer and terrorize others online. Just because they can.
Havok- I replaced the links -- We have discussed this over and over and I thought we had settled on policies a few months ago. NO COMMERCIAL SITES - meaning sites that primarily sell a product - Now - how do we determine otherwise? Removing ALL the links is no solution. I suggest you have the page locked again until we can reach a consensus. AGAIN Joeychgo 17:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Just a heads up; I have asked for this page to be protected until a consensus can be meet. Havok (T/C/e/c) 09:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I give up, I guess I didn't send Havok enough money to get my site listed.. The measuring system you used is stupid, and I said b4,, Joey is getting results from 2 sites.. Hey howabout I go buy a few webmaster sites and merge them with mine, this I'll pass your measuring system huh !.. forget it, this is a waste of my time, Who would have thought the wiki wasn't fair.. -Brandon
A wiki page about a commercial product that disallows other vBulletin specific products but allows other sites that sell commercial products - go figure. Obviously the wanabes sitting in their underwear have less intention of terrorising anyone than those who dicatate the external links on a wikki page. Scotsmist 21:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
A wiki page should cover the history to. How many of these external links can say they have been around since vbulletin v1.x ? vbPortal has been a small part of vbulletin's history. vbAdvanced may be free but the site sells vbA Links and once sold a gallery script. I suggest that all links are removed until this is resolved.
Vandalizing the article by adding links that are not wanted in the article again and again - is a bit of an elitest nerd attitude to take and unless you own the whole wiki site and have the god given right to speak for this site with regards to what is and isn't wanted by the wiki users then remove all of the links except vbulletin.com until its resolved or its going to get worse before its gets better. Once the page is unlocked it will only start over again. Will you will have something arrogant to say about vbportal having an own wikki page too. Scotsmist 13:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
are you talking to me Scott ? I'll assume no, since I wasn't speaking to you.. One thing I see that you said the wiki is for the history of vB, the links that are up now, don't show this in any way.. My site should be shown just as much as Joeys site.. This is my only argument,, if you remove my site, you should remove his.. Both sites are fairly new ( less then 2 years up )
IMO, the only links that should be showing by your current theory are vb.org and vb.com.. no others..! but if you let one vb fan site, then you must let them all, and don't pick your ranking by some irrelevant measuring system that hasn't even been working correct for some time ( google )..--Brandon Sheley 15:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
You know what Havoc, You run a F'd up deal here, There is no reason why my site shouldn't be listed other then you have some hard-on for me.. Go ahead ban me or w/e you can do here.. it's obvious that I wont get a fair listing, You are judging this one some jacked up measurement,, how about I go buy 2 more vb sites and merge them.. then I'll pass your "1,000 hits from google".. btw, how much is Joey paying u to be on his side ? ?? if you remove my link, then take them all down but vb.com,, You did this once and joey went and added his link again,, how is his actions not vandalism ? but mine is... You run a rigged operation here, I don't see how you can sleep at night.. --Brandon Sheley 00:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
There's no good reason that vBulletin community resources shouldn't be available for people searching for them. The whole point of Wikipedia is to be a resource for people using it, not someplace where people like Havoc can pretend to be God and show off how many e-inches of editing power he has. If I search for vBulletin on google and come here, I want to know where else I can go to learn about stuff for vBulletin. External Links should provide links to useful pages that have information people are going to want. Havoc, you should stay off this page and go pretend to be important elsewhere until you can learn to stop favoring your friends links while denying everyone else. Motivez 15:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
There's an obvious conflict of interest here, Havoc. I know it. You know it. Anyone who's spent any amount of time reading this talk page knows it. It's sickening. You DO NOT OWN Wikipedia, OR this specific entry.. so stop acting like you do. I'm personally in favor of reporting you to higher ups because your constant editing is blatantly bias and unfairly promoting friends and aquaintences.
Just to clarify, I know non of you, I don't care about any of you. If you read higher up on the page, we had this discussion before. Joeychgo was the last person to edit the external links section, and from what I can see he changed it back to what it was after our last debacle with the EL section of this article. Where actual consensus was made as to which links to keep etc. I'm not a god on WP, and I don't own it, I follow policy, which you people clearly do not. First rule of EL is to NEVER add your own link, and NEVER add your link to draw more people to your site. From what I can read from all your responses above, it's all you care about. I reported you for WP:3RR because you broke that cardinal rule. Feel free to start a straw poll and get consensus as to which links to add. As long as consensus is meet on adding your link, I don't care if it's there. I only remove it because you blatantly vandalize and disrupt Wikipedia to get your link up. Throwing around personal attacks against me because I'm the only person following Wikipedia policy really shows the character of your person. And why don't you listen when you are warned for breaking the rules? You are not above them. If this continues I'm going to ask for mediation, and I will continue to report your rule breaking like I would any other editor on Wikipedia. Havok (T/C/e/c) 06:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
You tell me what I have to do to get vBulletin Setup added ? and I don't want it just for members or visits.. I never said that.. I want the link placed because the whole site is aimed at helping vbulletin admins optimize their site.. My main thread with the most views are tips and techniques on optimizing vBulletin for SEO.
how do I make a poll or w.e to get my link placed ? I don't know wiki at all, I was just happy i found out how to do the sig stamp thing, and now I'm banned for a day so I can't do that.. -Brandon
what gets me is that the list was fine for weeks, with my link added.. then all of a sudden, there are "to many links" and mine was removed. :( -Brandon
So, what do I have to do get vBulletin Setup listed ? what is this, you check it 10 times a day when I add my own link, but when I ask a question it goes un answered for days ? Guess I'll just add it again to get your attention.- Brandon
So other sites can get listed without this Poll but mine I have to set a poll up ? seems a little one sided don't you think ? -Brandon btw, that link doesn't help at all, just says that polls are evil... where is the poll that Joey had to post to get listed ? You can't tell one person to do things one way, but let somoene else slide on by,,
Please add my site as you've proven there is no reason why it shouldn't be listed.. Hell search google for "vbulletin" my site is result #6 past vb.com and vb.org.. so why shouldn't my site be listed as it's obvious that it's a vbulletin help site..
Thanks -Brandon
It's pretty gay that you remove my link within an hr of me placing it, but I can ask a question and it never gets answered. Sorry I'm not the Wiki geek that you are, I don't know my way around.. I looked at the poll page and I didn't see how or where to make this poll,, do I make in right here ? if so,
should vBulletin Setup be listed on the vB page ? if you have never seen it b4, just search "vBulletin" on google and you'll see it. ( yes / no )
is this what needs to be done ? Thanks for the help -Brandon
again my question goes un noticed.. if I added my site, I bet you would answer in a matter of seconds, if I knew who to report your crooked actions to, I would - Brandon
what do sock puppits have to do with anything ? You know what, I don't care, I'm just trying to help out the vb owners, but obviously you have some other motive behind this. You would think the vb wiki would want sites in that help ? guess not.. Tell me, how much did you get paid to be an ass ? -Brandon The only ppl that are going to say anything are you and dumbass joey and we already know how you guys feel. I'm not going to go rally some ppl to say, yes add vbsetup. I simply don't have the time.. I'll rely on admins searching with google to find the help they are after, they sure wont get it if you stay in change havok. - Brandon
ah, just read what you sock puppits says. Dude your so full of it !!! the only time I haven't been signing in under brandon sheley is when you banned me.. and all the other times I've posted with a "-Brandon" after it. I have Never posted as another username ! Yet another lie that you have about me,, whats 200$ get me ? am I your best man now ?? man your lame.. -BRANDON !! ( don't want u thinking I'm "sock puppiting" again )
oh and obviously I wont be adding it unless you stop removing it. so your answer breaks done as 1. he added his site without asking, Look up ^^there joey did the same with vbw and was asking why it was being removed, yet he now has his site up ?? and 2.. this is something you made up ? I never have done this. and 3. This again was pulled from the first remark you made and obviously I can't keep adding it.. So actually you don't even have grounds for your decision..lol imagine that :))-BS
why's this over ? because you say it is ???? ya, your the king aren't you and if you call making up a bogus ranking system to place a link policy and saying I'm doing something that I'm not, a policy then you sir. The you need to pull your head out, because you don't have a clue what your doing here.. and I can't log in to place my real sig,, remember YOU BANNED ME!... Just leave mu listing, you said yourself that 5 links plus the pfficial ones is fine.. It's obvious that you and Joey are the only 2 who don't want my link place.. Next time you think of a bogus ranking system, just search google for vBulletin... Thanks - Brandon
Joey you did that same thing, how about you and havok both get off my nuts ;) You can see where you're link was removed and you added it anything up top ^ and It's very obvous that you don't want my link here, and isn't ironic how you always place your link right after the .org,, like your site is that good :)) I know this has made me look bad but I don't really care.. Everyone knows about how shady Joey, and the members on your site just haven't found a better site.. If I spent as much as you did on yahoo, ask, and good I would pass you in whatever monkeyfuck rating system that havok wants to use a heart beat. -Brandon
I can only agree that people are pissed off because of the blatant attempt at ownership of the external links on a wiki page - despite what is and isn't policy. I could look up dozens of pages here right now that are have external links on them similar in intent and content to those that have been deleted from this page and for the very reasons stated. A commerical site is not a reason to not be included in external links. It could be argued that all of these sites # vBulletin FAQ: How-To Tutorials and Forum for vBulletin Forum Owners, # vB Hackers: Hacks and Modifications, # vBadvanced: Free vBulletin Portal / Homepage addon, # vBulletin Modder: vBulletin Webmaster Help are not in the interest of vbulletin. jelsoft setup vbulletin.org to discuss addons, hacks, faqs, styles, programming, anything else you can care to mention for vbulletin. The reason that vbportal was not on vbulletin.org for long is due to the amount of support it was taking. It needed more than just a thread and most of you here who have been around as long as vbportal will remember this well, since it was a used on many of your sites for long enough. That's not the point, vbportal is an add-on product for vbbulletin. Links that offer additional features or functionality or in anyway alter vbulletin that other users may wish to know about should be included in a wiki page's external links. That's nothing to do with being free or commercial - vbadvanced sell commercial products right there on their home page for example - the point is sites like vbportal, vbseo, vbadvanced, vbindex, mkportal, photopost even, the joomla link for integration etc. all the stuff that is external to vbulletin but is also integral and needs vbulletin to work but is too big to be on vbulleton.org. Sites that offer hacks and modifications for example are not specific vbulletin external links, they are sites that offer content already catered for at vbulletin.org and in affect are just links that you would find in a link repository. I am starting to repeat myself here, but its as so much as to say that phpportals.com has as much right to be in the external links as any other link there aside from vbulletin's own two links. If there is going to be any more arguing about this then it must be raised to another level and those of you who are familiar enough about how wiki works (havok, joey ?) could do this on everyone else's behalf then once the links are all voted, whatever, and all participants informed when to vote and the result of the vote should then be added and the page locked down for editing. It would be very useful if the external links section could be locked down while the article can be left. If it gets too many links, do what was suggested before and add another wiki page that is not a list of links but paragraphs about all the different sites. If that page gets too big then more pages for different site types with paragraphs for each site and so on. What's the difference if one was to add a whole wiki page or just a little link at the foot of a page whose product is needed and extended on. vbportal doesn't work without vbulletin. Is this a possibilty ? Would someone raise this up to the next level of person to mediate this. If there are no replies in a couple of days time I will add phpportals.com back at the end of the external links. I am not trying to be a feckwit, though it doesn't matter if I am because its not about getting your site listed on a wiki page about vbulletin, its about knowledge Scotsmist 04:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Scotsmist, I agree with everything you said and hope something can be done about this. I obviously don't know anything about the wiki other then how to get banned. vbportal does have just as much right to be listed at vba is, as well as many other site. -Brandon
LOL@ I've threated ppl,, yeah OK JOEY ! I've never threated anyone or removed any links. What else "have I done" oh king of spam Joey ?? see this is why your worthless Joey, you act like your the man when really, you've just boughten you place on this site.. I can get my "google ranking" up and Havok would place me on the list too if I wanted to spend a few hundred on advertising.. That is the Only ! reason your site is listed Joey, and no other.. Next time please wash your mouth out, because all I see is Sh*t coming out of it. Sure. go ahead and tell some more lies about me guys,, how about talking about the spam joey sends out to other boards trying to get new staff ?? guess anything is fair when you pay enough huh.... -Brandon
I think this needs to be done. I'm going to report you yet again Brandon; If you want to know why I'm doing this I'm going to give you a few links that you can check out. You have vandalized the following pages:
Not to talk about the numerous of vandalisms you've done on this article as well as one on my user page. Like I said, I'm going to report you for being a vandal, for your uncivil tone, disregard to Wikipedia policy and your sock puppetry. Havok (T/C/e/c) 17:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
dude seriously,, you need to get over your self.. yes, I added those links, so now your not only in charge of the vb page but all wiki ? You really have some free time ? as for "vandalizing" your page, its the only way I can contact you ! Sorry, I'm not a wiki wiz like yourself. You really have no foundation to even threaten to ban me, you've already banned me actually, I haven't logged in since you banned me, so actually what are you banning me from next ? the Internet ?? Go ahead report me from being a "vandal" maybe I'll talk to someone with some common sense.. -Brandon ps. Please try to get your facts straight.. I've never even seen this page "Dual-layer_recording" yet another fabrication of the wiki world is it ? -Bs
I understand that categorising vbPortal as a commercial site and just that, could be a valid reason for excluding it from the external links. Consider this though. vbPortal is an addon for vbulletin. Wiki is an encyclopedia. vbPortal only works with vBulletin, it needs vBulletin to function. Sites that are already there - vBulletin FAQ, vB Hackers and vBulletin Modder all offer the same content as the two main vBulletin sites do. These links are in competition with the vBulletin istes for traffic. vbAdvanced offers an addon. It offers something that a user may be interested to know about. Wiki does not say that external links can not be to a commercial product. If I looked hard enough would I find vBulletin listed in any other wiki page's external links ? joey - I am not wanting to 'share' links, havok - I am not a wannabe nor sitting in my underwear, vbPortal has been everyting for 5 years. It is not a product that is offered by vBulletin. It extends vBulletin in the way that vbAdvanced does and then adds much much more. Iit is an extensive program as large as vBulletin itself that only works with vBulletin. My arguement is that the fact vbPortal is a commercial product is not grounds for not being included in the external links. joey - I never did get an email from you, but a recipricol link isn't as important right now as discussing the reason for excluding a vital piece of information about vBulletin. We will create an own wiki page eventually. We could update this vBulletin page to include a category about vbulletin.org, its origins, its history, the many sites that have been created since and the various products which have emerged to add to vBulletin. That is knowledge and nothing to do with wanting a link to vbPortal. If vbAdvanced is included then a link to all of the other free vBulletin adds should be included too - that would be fair if the reason vbPortal is excluded is because its commercial. MkPortal for example is free and it does not appear. vbIndex is free and it does not appear, so taking the arguement further, why are the other four site links there ? what are there grounds for being included. How are they justified in being there ? Forget they are not commercial becuase there are lots of other non commercial sites except vbadvanced. forget they offer a resource for the vBulletin user because vbulletin.org is there for exactly that and the three other external links are from their competitior's viewpoints, just spam links for the same reason that a site that only sells a product shouldn't be listed as that is spammy. The fact that vbadvanced is listed may be because it offers a portal - okay well so do mkportal and vbindex and they are not commercial either There are more as well. Either they should be included or vbadvanced shouldn't. If vbAdvanced is listed because it is a portal then vbPortal should be listed since it was the first portal and cms. It should be included in the body of the text why vbadvanced and those other sites are listed. Give reasons for listing them. As has been said about listing vbseo or any number joey mentioned like vbhackers, vbfaq, vbmodder then yes they should be listed for the same reason that vbadvanced is listed or any of the other 3 that are listed - these sites and vbportal are a resource for the vBulletin user and should be listed or a link to a page that does. Scotsmist 03:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Good luck Scott, I'm giving up on this page, it's obvious that a fare understanding will Ever come. It should either be just vb.com and .org or those 2 plus all the other help sites that are established.. The rating system Havok and Joey dreamed up doesn't even hold water, yet if you dare argue with them your "vandalising"..lol screw it, Let joey the spam king win :) -Bs
Okay, I'm trying to be civil, but I'm sorry, I don't know how to start a poll :( thanks for the help -Brandon
Two people disagreeing with the external links is surely not enough to contest what is regarded as a resource. It would be easy to vote the links in or vote them out with enough determination but the simple fact (I can only speak for myself) I am here, discussing this link and the only two objecting initially where havok and joey. No one else has joined in the talk or returned to it objecting. No one else is replying to any of the reasons why vbportal should be included or why the other links in particular should be included while others should not based on my reasons above. @havok you say that - if it was up to you all but maybe three of them is fine - and I say so long as that third link is to another wiki resource that the other links can be added, I am okay with that too. If its only joey objecting to my adding vbportal and its purely on the grounds of vbportal being a commercial resource then there is no reason to go to a poll since its 1 for and 1 against since havok has no bias. It would be unruley of me to say that Brendon has also spoken out that vbPortal should be added making it 2 for and 1 against (since we are the only people in the talk and have been for a while) it may prove necessary to ask a higher authority. If brendon was to modify the page and add his link he is accused of vandalising the page. The next person who comes along will likely do the same as I did and brendon did and add a link or edit some part of the page as they see fit. I have to also be honest and say that brandon's link has been on this page for a good while (longer than this discussion I am having that's for sure). I know this from my previous visit. The links remained unchanged for a while. The adding and deleting only started when I included vbportal. Then the page was reverted. I am new to wiki and added the link back. I did this a few times before realising I was maybe doing more than just playing devils advocate, maybe there's something I should know. I found this talk page and have been coming here each day along with brandon to get an arrangement where we can have a link on this page. I am in my corner. Brandon is in his corner. joey in another and havok trying to mediate. Perhaps if we called in a wiki mediator we can resolve the issue, by either removing all the links except vb's to another wiki page or we ask for a the mediator to decide about vbportal based on everything I have said in this chat from the first time I posted in it, not just this last section. Havok can not play mediator and keep removing everyone's link and joey can not do this either. It is as fair for me or anyone to remove those other links and leave vbulletin's and take havok's opinion that only three links. I would then create a new wiki page for useful vbulletin resources and add that as a Other Links. I am serious about adding a vbportal wiki page and if that is the case then I see no reason to add a link to vbulletin on the vbportal wiki page, for the same reasons and more why vbportal should not be included somewhere from either a link on this page or a subset of this page with a larger list or the article could be expanded to mention vbulletin.org popularity an how it created such a large interest in modifying the forums and some of the products that have changed vbulletin. Many of the hacks posted at vbulletin.org have been included in vbulletin over time and the hacking community has played a role in establishing vbulletin as a popular forum. This is all part of the information that should be on the vbulletin page. It is not an advert yet it reads like one in a lot of places and lacks some of the information that is also relevant to vbulletin. I can think of lots of reasons for discussing IPB and phpbb on this page which is why its a link at the bottom to Comparison of Internet forum software so a Comparison of vBulletin resources is something readers might want to know or be inrested in knowing. The various characters that have been on the seen and more about the vbulletin community. The hacks and addons and commercial addons (vbportal is not a hack) add to this community and its because of the community that such hacks even exist. If people did not want to know about these vbulletin resources they would not exist. Sure this page isn't a repository for links, in which case non of the other links have any reason to be there. They have no reference in the body of the text and are only there for one reason which is to tell anyone looking up vbulletin on wiki about those sites and "only" those sites and "no" other sites but those sites. I mentioned that I knew brandon or someone kept changing links and that someone has been accused of vandalism, but by that same token, reverting the page back is also an act of vandalism and is also being rude to the person who edited the article in the first place. Rather than just reverting an article because the link added is not one of the "only" links we are discussing leave them or make a subset or another page but don;t hinder the progress of the information that will be available about vbulletin. Joey claims that his site is a vluable resource and so is this wiki page to some people and without the knowledge being hindered it would mean more if it was allowed to grow and be better organised and better sections made up and subsets or a few categories. vbulletin is that interesting that it could take up more space on wiki if it was presented as knowledge and information like an encycopedia. I see no one else here but joey objecting so on that grounds I want to add the link back to vbportal or a vbportal wiki page once it has been added to here on this page somewhere in the links or the article. Its going round in circles and I am not going to take no for an answer when its only joey saying no. it reminds me of the remote control for the tv in prison the way this page is 'owned'. Either add vbportal or I push real hard to have all the other links removed starting on the grounds they have no basis in this page as it stands. they are not mentioned in the page and are only there so visitors are aware of those sites and only those sites and is being done in a way that is neither reasonable, fair or in anyway official other than picking out reasons why the person who edited the page has not done so correctly or by the rules of wiki and in a way to make the person who edits the page look like a trouble maker or vandal.Scotsmist 11:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
My arguement this whole time has been the ranking you use to place the links isn't a good system, The only reason I've been suck a "d*ck" about this is that it seems you let some sites be listed and other not based on what ? it isn't this google ranking, because I know several sites that are larger then the ones listed. -Brandon
What system are you using now to place the links showing then ? -Brandon
The last time this discussion was had I was not included, well I am know and would like vbportal added or the other links removed for the same reason that this is not a link repository. Quoting havok - """I only wanted the argument to stop by removing what the argument was about until a better solution came along. Havok""". Havok - you are saying it is information that matters - saying vbAdvanced matters because it is free but vbPortal doesn't matter because it is a commercial product is just not adding up for me. It is looking clearly like brandon has some cause for concern that the external links on this specific wiki page are being dictated. Would either you or Joey raise this to a higher level. I do not want to be accused of vandalism, so wish it to be decided by a higher authority than havok and joey instead. Clearly there is something wrong here.Scotsmist 10:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Here is something about vBulletin on another wiki page that is information that is also similar in nature to the vbPortal and vbAdvanced flaming. There is a lot of history between vbPortal and vBulletin - a lot more than any of the other sites listed here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29. ON the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drupal vBulletin is listed on the page in the article because it has Drupal integrated with vBulletin. This is the kind of information that will appear on the vbPortal wiki page. I am not just intending on adding a link here to vbPortal I am intending on adding vbPortal to the wiki knowledge base. It has been around for nearly 6 years. The product has a lot of history and I am one of the people best to tell it. Scotsmist 10:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC) To quote Joey - """Wickipedia is NOT a Jelsoft site. Only having "Official" Jelsoft links is inappropriate and not the way Wiki does things. Other related and non spam sites are permissible and appropriate to be listed here. This is a knowlegebase and a resource for users, and listing other websites that have information about vBulletin are entirely appropriate. STOP PLAYING WITH THE EXTERNAL LINKS —Joeychgo""" - vbPortal is not spam and is related, permissable and appropriate to be listed here. Once the other wiki page is up I am adding it unless told by wiki not to. If the link is not suitable under secion 4 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL#What_should_be_linked_to then there is information that is suitable for inclusion in the article such as the flame war between vbportal and vbadvanced and being the first commercial addon, stuff like that. It would then tie in with vbAdvanced and it too could be removed from the external links (just thinking out loud)Scotsmist 10:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Tell you what I will not add an external link, but I do wish to add vbPortal to the article once the wiki page is posted. FYI - On that same page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL#What_should_be_linked_to under Advertising and conflicts of interest - joey shouldn't add his own site to the external links, none of us should. Linking to another wiki page in the article though, does not come under any of these rules afaik. Scotsmist 11:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Havok, you said that the current links are the same as the old ones we had, This is incorrect. Will you please allow vbsetup to be listed. It is entirely dedicated to vBulletin and optimize your vB for guest and SEO. When i first looked at this page there were only 2 or 3 links on the vb wiki page, I'm sure if you look at the google cache you will see something different then what you have setup. Why shouldn't a site that is listed on google first page for vBulletin just under this page we're trying to get on ?
I said, I'm sorry for how I was acting, but your system doesn't make sense. If we can agree on a better rating system, I'll stop asking for vbsetup to be listed. -Brandon ps. the cache shows my site, maybe it should be listed :-/ - Brandon
So, is it okay to add vBulletinSetup back to the list like it was before ppl started removing my link ? It is about optimizing vBulletin, that is it's main focus.. None of the others sites will claim that.. -Brandon
Whether a site is commercial or not has no bearing on the external links or any links included in the article, this is a red herring and one joey is throwing around in a vain attempt to prevent all links being removed including his. Either we come to an agreement and add vbportal which is a CMS and not a front page portal like vbAdvanced (hence a different instance) and its commercial unlike vbAdvanced (hence a different instance again) or else we create a web directory category. If no agreement can be reached then all of the links should be removed, this is not a first come first served - its a repository of information for goodness sake, stop being so possesive of a wiki page - either resolve this or get someone in that can. I do not just intend adding vbportal to the external links I also intend adding a small section to the actual article, but for concerns about being accused of vandalism or coming back an hour later to edit the text and finding it reverted again. Who in this discussion actually has the given right to say what can and can not be added. This page is not the ownership of anyone here, so if we can not agree, someone else should. I am going to add a section about Portal wars. If I add this and it is removed or reverted without discussion first I will not be amused. Scotsmist 14:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Joey ! Stop removing my link.. Are you scared of the competition, it's pretty easy to just remove the sites that compete with you..
so whats up ? you jump my ass claiming that I removed your link, and now I catch you ? do you get banned also ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=VBulletin&diff=94390555&oldid=94390484 -Brandon
you know joey - you are really annoying - you may be tired of going round in circles - but you have not made any valid reason for removing the vbportal link. - the vbportal link has been added - deleted it again joey and I will report you for abuse and vandalism - you have been warned. You are not god, you do not own wilki and this is not your site or page - leave well alone!! Havok - leave the link alone! I have been reasonable and I am taking this to another level after the holidays. So the real probelem - do we delete all the links, add vbportal (and brandon's link) or add a category page I say brandon have someone else add your link and then have a wiki mediator sort it out.? (scotsmist - logged out) 82.40.242.252 13:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
So basiclly what your saying is - your commercial link should be here or nobodys? The 'no commercial links policy' has been in effect for some time. Its nothing new, its nothing against you... Ive explain my reasons for supporting such a policy. We'll have 50 skin site links here if that policy was reversed, then what? You clearly only care about yourself and not the quality of the wiki page. Take it to whatever level you like. Your the one vandalizing the page. Joeychgo 15:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
We haven't had any issues with the links in so long,, why stir it up agian :( .. I'd say I have to agree with joey or havok, who ever is against vbportal from being listed.. They've said a number of times that your script is a paid script, and that is why it's not listed.. vBa has the free CMS that 1,000's of forums use, and I can understand why it's listed. Sorry bud, but I'm with them. -Brandon
My only exception to listing phpportals, as I have said, is that its a commercial site. If we let one commercial site in, then every skin maker and paid vB service will want to be listed also. Its a big door to open. My opinion has nothing to do with the quality of the site. I have said - I would be happy to exchange links with you scotsmist on vbfaq - but the quality of this page becomes jepordized if we start allowing commercial sites to be listed. Joeychgo 06:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
who ever keeps trying to sneak vbusers in, Stop ! the site has less then 200 post,, it's still very new.. The links here have been fine for some time, no need to still it up again.. I'd search who's doing it, but frankly, I don't know how.. maybe someone else can look. Just please stop, your going to disrupt this whole thing again, thank you - Brandon
Can people please stop adding their links again and again, it's becoming annoying. Continue and I will remove and keep the external links off this article. I don't care who you are, your reason for adding it, if you are commercial or not, I don't care, stop adding your link! Wikipedia is not an ad service or link repository. I've removed all links except the official links and added a link to DMOZ, feel free to add your link on the DMOZ page, and not this article. Then you can add whichever page you want, and there will be no argumentation against who gets to stay and not. Havok (T/C/e/c) 08:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Giving us an option to add links to dmoz is a bit of a slap in the face,, You all know that it's about impossible to get listed in Dmoz, just to prive my point you see Joey's site vbwebmaster is listed and that site isn't even up still :(
This is a bad move and I hope you reconsider it Havoc. The links page has been fine for like 2 months and now you remove them all ? Bad move IMO, please add our links back.. -Brandon
I replaced the links. Deleting all the links does not help the quality of the page, and linking to DMOZ, which hasnt had an update or accepted a submission in 4 months due to it having server issues, is no answer either. Things are relatively calm here now Havoc Joeychgo 16:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I would contact the DMOZ people, as DMOZ is a valid link to use instead of lots of links in an article WP:EL "Rather than creating a long list of external links, editors should consider linking to a related category in the Open Directory Project (also known as DMOZ) which is devoted to creating relevant directories of links pertaining to various topics. (See ((Dmoz)).) If there is no relevant category, you can request help finding or creating a category by placing ((Directory request)) on the article's talk page." I see absolutly no point in keeping the ELs when all you people do is bicker, and when you don't, people still keep adding their site to the list. Using DMOZ is fair to everyone, and as such no arguments will happen over who gets to keep their link or not. Havok (T/C/e/c) 18:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you lock the editing up like you did b4 Havok ? the links that are up now have been just fine for so long and now it seem out of the blue someone is trying to still it up again ? I think the link that are up ATM are good and Very related to vb. - Brandon
how is it not vandalisim when you change the links ? add the dmoz one if you want.. your the one complaining about to many links ? The dmoz link is pointless, your really not suggestion we "add links it" this is what we see if we even tried to add a link "We apologize for the inconvenience while we resolve technical problems. Please check back in a day or two." so, removing it from the wiki really doesn't matter ! anyways, I wont touch it again, and You can stop vandalizing the links that are present now Havok. - Brandon
Havok, you say we haven't answered your question ??? what are you talking about ? as for us adding our own links for "hits" that is no where near the truth. I not only will keep adding my site, but the 6 others that have been listed for months with NO PROBLEMS ! You asking us to submit to dmoz when we CAN'T, becuase dmoz isn't even accepting submission. Please stay off your high horse and leave the links how they where. I'm sure your just trying to do the right thing, but telling us to use DMOZ isn't it. -Brandon
"Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons."
So -what rule is to be followed? We use our judgement - thats what - and weigh all the factors involved. Joeychgo 22:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)"Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews. "
Reading the history of this chat makes one thing kind of plain to me - you are not going to get this resolved by more discussion between the affected parties. This is not a webmaster forum, where anything goes, and many of these posts have got too personal. There is obviously a major disagreement on the terms of applying the WP policy to this article - Havok has one standpoint, and this is disputed in various forms by joeychgo and Brandon. If you refer to WP:DR it appears that you have gone through steps 1 and 2, and some of 3. The next level in trying to get this resolved, and to take the personalities out of this discuss is to send it to Mediation. From what I see this had not yet been done. WP:RFM is the place to go for you to set up the Mediation. Would the three of you be willing to do this? I really hope that this issue can be resolved. -- Alucard (Dr.) 13:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the recently added controversy section. It has no business here as it isnt factual and has no real basis to be in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joeychgo 00:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Seeing as you don't use your account. Could you please go to the mediation page linked at the top of the page and agree to mediation. If you do not, this will go nowhere. Thank you. Havok (T/C/e/c) 09:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I see the 2 links, I'm not sure what I need to do on them ? Please let me know,, thank you for taking things to this step. I would have tried to do the same, but I know Zip about the wiki,, thanks - Brandon
now what do we do ? - Brandon 20:57, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.231.206 (talk • contribs) 20:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
so if nothing happens, whats that mean for the links ? -Brandon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.231.206 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This havoc guy is obviously a complete moron who has nothing to do with the vBulletin community but get's his rocks off pushing people around. Get a life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.127.232.111 (talk • contribs) 105:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I own a license, and I'm a Wikipedian. As for your sly remarks, please read WP:CIVIL. Havok (T/C/e/c) 08:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for explaining Havoc - Brandon ps. havok, I wasn't the one that started talking here. ? I'll just watch
Looks like the mediation has been accepted. Go to the Talk Page for the mediation for the next steps. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 13:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
link to the "talk" page please ? thank you -Brandon
The Admin Zone is a resource site for forum owners/admins and has thousands of discussions relating to vBulletin, hundreds of articles and interviews including original interviews with 10 or more key vBulletin developers and staff, 31,567 threads, 233,976 posts, 15,729 members, 3,121 "active" members and an Alexa Rating of 6,942. Many of our past and present staff members are also past or present members of the official vBulletin staff, and/or are considered experts in vBulletin by the greater vBulletin Community. Our site is a resource site broadly focused on forums - we are not a vBulletin "fan" site and we have members who use all of the various forum software products available, not just vBulletin. We have numerous discussions relating to comparisons between the various forum software products.TAZ Sandman 20:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see much agreement here, at least not by unbiased parties (i.e. people not having sites they wish listed). I have noted the use of the term "encyclopedic" several times in the discussion here as a major criterion for inclusion. The definition of encyclopedic is "of, relating to, or suggestive of an encyclopedia or its methods of treating or covering a subject; comprehensive". Why in heavens name would you exclude a resource because it has a broad focus when that resource is the biggest and best source of relevant information for owners and administrators of vBulletin forums (excluding the official sites)? It defies logic to do so in a resource like the Wikipedia, which is itself hugely diverified. Isn't that it's strength? I have looked over the WP:EL and find no basis for the exclusion of the Admin Zone based on it's failure to be "dedicated to vBulletin".
I do not believe it's appropriate for those wanting to have their sites listed as external links to determine which sites should be excluded - that's a clear conflict of interest. Rather, each should give justification why their site should be included and then let unbiased people decide which resources are appropriate for inclusion. I certainly will not partake in the ongoing diatribe regarding this issue. The content of the Admin Zone speaks for itself, and if it is excluded then the loss is to the users of the Wikipedia.TAZ Sandman 02:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
(undent) ok, I may be able to function as a more unbiased editor, since I do not own anything even vaguely to do with vBulletin. In my opinion, the Wikipedia article should like to sites that are about vBulletin and vBulletin ONLY - there was a Wiki article I read on this concept the other day and I have tried to find it to provide a reference, but am failing. Since the site in question in this section is about a broader topic that includes vBulletin, I feel that this would not be a good EL for this article. Since the forum is applicable to many forums, if anywhere, it should be linked from a more generic article. I hope this makes sense. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 14:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The Admin Zone contains original, in-depth interviews with vBulletin developers as well as other key personnel. For example:
Interview with Kier
Interview with Andreas
Interview with Steve Machol
These interviews are directly on point and should be included in the vBulletin article. If the Admin Zone does not qualify as an external link for some reason (which escapes me), the interviews (at least the one with Kier, the project manager/lead developer) should be specifically linked in another section of the article such as the "See Also" section. Surely nobody could have an objection to that.--TAZ Sandman 15:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
You mention that the reason for the whole site not qualifying as an External Link "escapes you" - I have tried to give the reasons in my post. Is there some part of that that you do not understand? -- Alucard (Dr.)
Not exactly:
In my opinion, the Wikipedia article should like to sites that are about vBulletin and vBulletin ONLY - there was a Wiki article I read on this concept the other day and I have tried to find it to provide a reference, but am failing. Since the site in question in this section is about a broader topic that includes vBulletin, I feel that this would not be a good EL for this article. -- Alucard (Dr.)
I understand that you have a feeling, an opinion, that the Admin Zone is not a good candidate for an EL because it is about a "broader topic" than vBulletin only. But you do not back up that opinion with any reason other than mentioning a single article that you can't locate. I certainly don't see anything in the WP:EL that supports this position.
Let me explain why I think that the Admin Zone is an appropriate EL even though it covers a broader topic. The vast majority of our content is directly applicable to anyone with an interest in vBulletin. We're a perfect reference source for these people. We have tons of related content, and many of our staff are past or present members of the official vBulletin staff and/or are considered experts in vBulletin by the greater vBulletin Community. The other sites petitioning for a place on the EL offer nothing that can't be found on the Official vBulletin sites. A vBulletin user can visit to the Admin Zone and come away with something that the official vBulletin sites do not offer.
There are some sites that are much bigger than the Admin Zone which cover general aspects of webmastering including forums. Examples would be WebMasterWorld, SitePoint, and DigitalPoint. These sites would not make good EL's because most of their content is not directly related to vBulletin users. Their focus is clearly too wide. Ours is not.
While looking through the WP:EL again I noticed something else of significance that I had missed before:
Links normally to be avoided
Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:
13. Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: it should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject. This means that there is both a relation from the website to the subject of the article, and a relation from the subject of the article to the website. For example, the officially sanctioned online site of a rock band has a direct and symmetric relationship to that rock band, and thus should be linked from the rock band's Wikipedia article. An alternative site run by fans is not symmetrically related to the rock band, as the rock band has only indirect connections with that site.
This seems to indicate to me that the non-official vBulletin ONLY sites should be specifically excluded from the External Links.TAZ Sandman 20:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that you are misinterpreting the quoted passage. Clearly, it indicates that alternative sites run by "fans" are not symmetrically related to the topic of the article. It doesn't mention anything about sites with broader focus.
It should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject. --WP.EL
The crucial point here is that the Admin Zone does indeed have a symmetrical relationship with vBulletin, as evidenced by the fact that many of our past and present staff members are/were also staff members of the official vBulletin sites, as well as the fact that we have original, in-depth interviews with a dozen official vBulletin personnel. Our site is maintained by two former vBulletin.org administrators. We have thousands of posts written by official vBulletin staff members.TAZ Sandman 20:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
LOL - Symmetrical wasn't my word - it's the word used in the WP:EL so we have to go from there. In this context, I take it to mean that an "unofficial" site should not be used as an external link if it is merely derivative of the official site - i.e. there is no significant interaction or cross-over between them. After all, symmetrical basically means "having corresponding parts". What do you take it to mean then? --TAZ Sandman 21:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Your interpretation is somewhat narrower that the guidelines provide for - I think you are taking the term symmetrical too literally in the mathematical sense. In this case it speaks more to balance, which is what I mean by cross-over or interaction between the sites. The WP:EL states:
Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: it should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject. This means that there is both a relation from the website to the subject of the article, and a relation from the subject of the article to the website. --WP:EL
The guidelines clearly state that there must be a two way relationship. They do not say that the relationship must be 1:1, or that the breadth of focus of both sites must be identical. The key issue is the amount of crossover or interaction. In your Metallica example, if the roadie's presence on the site caused some of the actual band members to join and participate to any significant degree, than I believe the site would be an appropriate candidate for an External Link. --TAZ Sandman 21:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Sandman - You spell it out right in your meta Tags --
And in your mission statement:
The Admin Zone is an online Community of Bulletin Board owners and administrators dedicated to the exchange of ideas and information relating to all aspects of managing Message Board Communities. Our goal is to become the leading resource for every Bulletin Board Administrator seeking the information and advice needed to plan, launch, and manage their online Communities.
Further - Looking at your homepage we have
There are 5 additional interviews of vBulletin personnel. I dont see how you can even claim that TAZ is 'primarily' about vBulletin. The point being, as Alucard has said and I have said, TAZ does not appear to be an appropriate link for this page. You wouldnt put an auto body shop on the ford page because they paint fords as well as chevys. There are other pages more appropriately suited for TAZ.
Oh, thanks for running and IP banning me. :) Since I wasnt IP banned a few days ago, I have to assume its due to my opposition of your link being added here. Tis ok. I have AOL and can still read freely. Joeychgo 21:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree TAZ should not be listed, if it was, you might as well say sitepoint, digital point, adminfusion and the countless other admin forums should be listed just because they might have some vBulletin area.. The wiki page should be for sites aimed directly at vBulletin. Oh, and I wouldn't worry about being banned from sandmans site, he banned me by mistake ( ment to be another member ) and he never even apologized, its just the sorta dictatorship the he runs ;) - Brandon
better yet, how about you, TAZ, add your thoughts to the Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/VBulletin debate? --Unsigned comment
Is this permissible under the Wikipedia:Mediation rules? I saw no clear indication either way. If the mediator will allow it, I will be happy to participate in that discussion. --TAZ Sandman 22:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
if TAZ is allowed, then so should adminfusion, they are both the same type of site.. a webmaster site, not a vBulletin site.. - Brandon
Unlike the other participants of this discussion who have engaged in endless edit wars and vandalism, I made an appropriate request for inclusion on the talk page and gave reasons justifying it. I never added a link to the article, and I have abided by the decision excluding it even though the decision was primarily made by biased editors.
Most of the unbiased editors commenting on this issue going back over a year have been in favor of limiting the External Links to the two official vBulletin sites plus DMOZ, but the site owners who want their links included are unwilling to accept this and have conducted an unrelenting campaign for conclusion far beyond what should be allowed. --TAZ Sandman 18:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
it's beyond obvious that taz shouldn't be listed. just because you "did things by the rules" doesn't mean it should even be considered.
we're having a hard enough time getting sites solely devoted to vBulletin listed, and you want to toss in a webmaster site that covers many scripts ? I don't think so.. - Brandon
Just to add something to the discussion here, the Talk page for WP:EL is trying to resolve an issue with the guidelines that I have brought up - this whole "symmetry" idea. So far, the discussion seems to support my interpretation of the term - you link to sites that are about the subject of the page and not sites about broader things. So sites which are only about vBulletin may be considered for adding (but are not a "sure thing") but that sites that are about a broader subject should not. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 12:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
just wondering what we're waiting for now ? - Brandon
alright, I didn't think it would take this long.. by the time things get sorted out, maybe my site will pass the one year mark and will be able to be added :D - Brandon
Since the mediation lost steam, I replaced the external links section. I tried to use a compromise of what was discussed in the mediation page. I listed the new guidelines as follows:
Any editor seeking to add a link to the vBulletin article MUST make their request via the article's talk page and get a concensus opinion of unbiased editors before adding it. To be eligible for linking, a site:
Joeychgo 20:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
no way joeychgo - it doesn't work like that. I have been visiting this site every few days. You could have added vbportal (bitch), but then no doubt someone will revert, it, the page will be locked and back to square one. If you had waited for a mediation then this would not go full circle agian, but if course you obviously couldn't wait for someone else to make a decision and had to add links when it was just fine with dmoz and the two official links as I stated last time I posted in the mediation discussion page. Scotsmist 01:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
reverted back to two official vbulletin links and dmoz. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scotsmist (talk • contribs) 02:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
mediation requested here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Vbulletin Scotsmist 02:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Reverted back. Leave alone until someone of higher authority decides differently.
Now - I took one of SANDMANs suggested links structures and placed it there. Plenty of time went by without comment from anyone, which is why the mediation was closed. Even before it was closed, we were going in circles. One thing, Pretty much everyone agreed (except you) that paid hack sites such as phportals shouldnt be included. No need to call me names scotsmist. Joeychgo 04:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The mediation was closed with no resolution of the issues at hand, and therefore the article should be left as it was before the mediation started and a different means of addressing these issues (3rd party mediation or arbitration) undertaken. It is completely unnacceptable for a participant in the mediation to have made changes to the article at this point, especially since in doing so they are simply listing their own site without obtaining approval by a concensus of editors on the article's talk page in clear violation of the WP:EL as well as the "new guidelines" they say they are promoting. It is exactly this type of vandalism that has taken us to our current situation. The Sandman 20:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I will change the article back to the way it was during the mediation. I do not believe that further mediation is going to work, however, since the parties will no be able to agree. I strongly suggest an RfC as the next stage - this will (hopefully) bring in others to the discussion who can perhaps look at things from a more neutral point of view. Is everyone ok with this? -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't have any objections to a resolution. Its not clear though that WP:30 is suited since it says it where two parties object where as there are three objecting unless that isn't important here. Thank you for reverting the page. I think you will find that many people are happy about that, especially those who have not been able to contribute to this page in the past due and have been excluded while seeing other sites included without any clear guideline. The way the external links are now, no one loses out so long as dmoz is up and running and responding there is plenty of useful resources available to any wiki reader wishing to find out more about vbulletin without needing to define a set of rules. Scotsmist 00:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I followed a link here from WP:3O, and I confess that I'm posting before reading literally all of the backlog. I read a lot of it (much of it twice), and I think I get what's going on. There are a bunch of forum sites that are reasonable to link to as good resources, except that there are so darn many of them. We know that WP:NOT a link repository, so we don't want dozens. Choosing just a few is problematic, because there are people here from the sites themselves who say it's "not fair" if somebody else "gets" to have a link and they don't.
I think the link to dmoz is sufficient. It would be cool to link to a couple of forums, if there were one or two clearly main ones, but it seems there are many sites providing roughly equivalent resources. Thus we get a situation where people compete with each other to use Wikipedia for promotion.
Wikipedia is neither a link repository nor a promotional tool — the fact that this is an encyclopedia is far more important than linking to a forum or two, especially when we can link to dmoz, which is a link repository.
I suggest changing the <!-- comment --> in the External links section to explain that we've decided against adding any links to unofficial sites, and then remove any that are added. If someone persistently re-adds links despite this, and won't cooperate when asked, then we should block them for disruption. Edit warring over external links is just unacceptable.
That's the only way we can be neutral about it. Otherwise we'd have to select some sites and reject others using an arbitrary metric like g-hits, and that seems to invite edit warring. We can exclude them all, while still allowing for discussion of a possible neutral standard for inclusion. If somebody comes up with standard that a consensus can agree to, then we'll implement it, but until then, I think we should stick to a "official links and dmoz only" policy. Anybody who wants any links included therefore has an incentive to work towards consensus.
That's my suggestion. What do others think? -GTBacchus(talk) 03:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
GTBacchus -- This was my suggestion some time ago....
If you read the mediation, after this point, only 2 real points of contention were raised, and were raised continously by Scotsmist and/or Sandman. One was - the DMOZ question. The other was a line Sandman wanted:
I objected to this because it is an arbitrary judgement and subject to problems in the future.
If you read through the mediation, you'll see, my suggestion was voted and tied with the votes for only official links. i ahve tried to compromise and work with these two, both of which by the way only had complaints when THEIR sites were refused to be listed. (see the vBulletin talk page)
I tried again to make a compromise... And after the mediation was closed due to being stale, I took one of SANDMAN's suggestions and used that structure (copied and pasted it from the mediation page). Nothing seems to be good enough for these guys. There is no compromise possible it seems. At least not one that these 2 will go along with. Joeychgo 17:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
There are existing guidelines in place to determine the appropriateness of external links (the WP:EL). There is an existing process in place to discuss the appropriateness of the existing guidelines (the WP:EL Talk Page). And there is an existing process in place to discuss the implementation of the WP:EL guidelines for a particular article (the article's Talk Page). In order to function correctly, these guidelines and processes depend on having editors acting in good faith and following the concensus of the majority.
The guidelines proposed by joeychgo are an attempt to bypass the requirements set forth by the WP:EL, which requires that external links be of some significant, demonstrable benefit to the wiki reader above and beyond that offered by the "official links". This has not been demonstrated - in fact any attempt to add quantifiable measures of activity, importance, recognigion by the vBulletin Community, etc. have been dismissed out of hand by joeychgo. He gives one example above, which was a recommendation of the mediator.
In order to be eligible for inclusion, you should be able to demonstrate that the site is active and has made a verifiable impact beyond its own user community or been the subject of national or international media attention.
Another recommendation of the mediator refused by joeychgo:
I think what will be best would be if we can come up with a set of standards for inclusion of links for the vBulletin article. Just to get us started, let's try working from what were part of the WP:WEB guidelines at one point:
Having been the subject of national or international media attention;
A forum with more than 5,000 users that has made a verifiable impact beyond its own user community; or
Having an Alexa ranking of 10,000 or better.
Joeychgo wants all such measures of importance stripped away. Not only that, he wants the process of obtaining a concensus of editors to be bypassed as well. His site has been rejected by the majority many times over the past two years (long before I ever got here) and his response has been vandalism and edit warring. He waits for those editors who oppose him to move on, and starts the process over again.
Although overall agreement could not be reached during the mediation, there was agreement that "Any editor seeking to add a link to the vBulletin article MUST make their request via the article's talk page and get a concensus opinion of unbiased editors before adding it." Despite this, Joeychgo again took it upon himself to add his site and others to the article without making a request on the article's talk page and getting a positive concensus.
In my opinion, any process that seeks to bypass the WP:EL is doomed to fail. We need to use the guidelines set forth in the WP:EL, and interpret and implement them specifically for the vBulletin article. From now on any editor seeking to add a link to the vBulletin article MUST make their request via the article's talk page and get a concensus opinion of unbiased editors before adding it. This was agreed to by all parties during the mediation, and has never been implemented. This simple rule may well serve to resolve our problems. Part of the request should in some way address the requirement that an external link must be an important resource that adds something to the article above and beyond what is available at the "official" sites. If there is a positive concensus then the external link can be added, preferably by someone not affiliated with the site . I further propose that if a site is not approved by the majority, there is a mandatory 6 month waiting period before it can be resubmitted. The Sandman 15:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that everybody stop trying to find reasons why a compromise can not be reached, to lay blame, or to question motives. The fact is that no effective compromise could be reached which satisfied all parties, and we need to move on. I feel that whenever a consensus solution can not be reached, then everyone loses. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 16:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Official sites |
Unofficial sites |
Interviews & articles
|
Havok had agreed to it then also. Now I get lamblasted. I didnt make the suggestion. But It was sandman's, Havok agreed with it, clearly I felt it was an acceptable compromise by posting it. Now I get attacked. It's BS, im sorry. We will not get unbiased opinions on a long term basis because none of us can be 100% unbiased as most of us are involved with a site or have friends that are involved with a site. I like to provide people with information. Thats what the purpose of wiki is I thought. No, not a link repository, but there are many sites out there that people will find quite useful. This whole matter has really got away from helping the quality of the page and the reader. I tried to use something I thought everyone could live with, and I dont know what else to do. Nobody seems to want to compromise. I personally see problems listing articles and interviews, but I can live with it. However, sandman's suggestion isnt good enough for him either. SO, I ask.... Now what?? Joeychgo 18:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
You mean unbiased editors, like yourself? Why waste my time. Look if you dont want to be reasonable and compromise, thats up to you. Almost every condition you have suggested is either unreasonably hard to achieve or so ambigous that you invite dispute down the line whenever someone wants a link added. Want a reason? vBfaq was listed for a year before you came along, and vBwebmaster (the 2 sites merged) was listed before that. It already WS listed before you and scotsmist came along. Want more reason? 8000 members, dedicated 100% to vBulletin, free skins, free hacks, SEO advice, tutorials and articles, hack reviews - much of what you have on TAZ except it is 100% vBulletin. Joeychgo 04:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The crux of the matter is if you believe that your site is an important resource which offers something to the wiki reader beyond what is offered at the official sites - The Sandman
As a fairly new user of vBulletin software, I found vB-FAQ provided a step-by-step guide to optimise, customise and improve on the basic vB installation that comes as standard. Whilst there is an extensive listing of many of these modifications at vb.org, the importance and purpose of carrying out such improvements is not clearly apparent at either of the official sites. I now understand not only what to do, but why I need to do it - something that vb.com and vb.org did not achieve.
Other unofficial support sites might claim the same, but for me it was vB-FAQ that provided the answers and put me on the right track. Ironically, I found many of these other support sites, both commercial and non-commercial, through vB-FAQ.
It seems that many involved in this argument are very experienced in this software. Please take a moment to look at this issue through the eyes of a person who has no such knowledge.196.207.39.252 08:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)vbuser
There is NO WAY TAz should be listed Anywhere in the wiki for vBulletin.. by the time this ever gets approved, vBulletinSetup will hit it's one year make and should be listed as that was the only thing holding it back.
The sandman is just trying to push his weight around to get what he wants.. Just because he has interviews with vB dev's doesn't mean ANYTHING.. I can easily start up a BLOG and post interviews with vBulletin dev's.. does that mean my blog should be listed ?? No..
we were all in agreement with what sites should be listed, then sandman came in here and messed it all up. IMO, taz is making the vb wiki a JOKE ! -Brandon
I agree with 196.207... that this isn't an ideal solution - any solution arrived at because the interested parties can not agree to a solution isn't ideal. And I agree that WP users may be not getting what they should. But given the long and painful history of this discussion, there was no other solution that could be arrived at. I agree it's a shame. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 16:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Despite joeychgo's relentless protestations to the contrary, the timeline speaks for itself. The mediation was requested on or about January 6th and was accepted on or about January 13th as noted on this page. My first entry was on January 23rd, at which time the only external links listed were the official sites plus DMOZ. I had nothing at all to do with that - I didn't even know the article existed until that time. I have never added or removed any link from the vBulletin article. This controversy has apparantly been going on for almost two years now, the great majority of the time without my knowledge. The vandalism and edit warring that joeychgo and others engaged in occured before I was ever here. Since then, joeychgo has resorted to adding his link back to the article despite the fact that the mediation did not result in any resolution, and most recently recruiting an anonymous "fairly new vBulletin user" from vB-faq to praise his site. Even if you are willing to overlook the fact that this "vbuser" has chosen to hide his identity, does not appear to be listed as a member of vB-faq, and has no history I can find on the wikipedia (and does quite well making his entries for a total newbie), it is inappropriate to have people affiliated with a site campaign in this manner. Good lord - do you have any idea how many people I could get over here to participate if I thought it was acceptable and productive? I haven't recruited a single person to take up this discussion on my behalf and I wouldn't do so because IMO it would undermine my position, as it has joeychgo's. The Sandman 22:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
My credibility is intact - sure, I added a link to the phpBB and IPB articles and quickly learned how things work around here. It's a pity you still haven't learned it. I didn't add the links a second time and I certainly didn't vandalize any pages or engage in edit wars as you have done. But that has nothing to do with the vBulletin article - I've never added or removed any links from this article. It's your credibility you need to worry about - you just can't get it straight. Here's 3 examples: You said that the mediation started after my link was not accepted, but the fact is the mediation was already in progress before I ever arrived here. When you vandalized the article after the failed mediation you claimed several times that you were following a recommendation that I had made, but that was obviously not the case either. Finally, you've claimed several times that all of the recommendations that you consider "too difficult to achieve" which were put forward during the mediation were from me, when the majority of them came from the mediator. I don't know why you can't get these things right, since they're preserved in writing on this very page as well as the mediation page - either you're not paying attention, can't remember simple facts, or are trying to manipulate the discussion. The Sandman 02:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Taz has no reason to be listed, that site isn't even about vbulletin.. at least scott's Joey's and my site are centered around vbulletin.. if taz where to get listed and my or joeys, or even vbportal wasn't listed, then this really does make the wiki look like a joke. - Brandon
Joeychgo and Brandon just don't get it. Don't you guys realize that the Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, not a place to put your links just because you want to? Only important resources are supposed to be added to the external links section. Reasons like "my site is dedicated to vBulletin" and "my site has been around for 1 year" don't even come close to fulfilling the WP:EL guidelines.
The arguments that joeychgo makes are invalid. He says that I'm behind the "no links kick", and that's wrong on 2 counts - first, because when I arrived here the external links were already limited to the official sites plus DMOZ (and locked to prevent further vandalism and edit warring) - and second, because I did not campaign for this limitation during the mediation (I supported and expanded upon the mediator's recommendations regarding objective measures of a site's importance).
Furthermore, despite joeychgo's (and Brandon's) opinions to the contrary, it is appropriate to link to a site with a broad focus if the link is directed to a specific section of the site which deals with the article. This has been discussed at length on the WP:EL Talk page and there is a strong concensus for it - in fact they go so far as to call it a no-brainer. So the truth is, TAZ is appropriate as an external link if the other WP:EL guidelines are considered to be met. Additionally, the articles and interviews on TAZ are appropriate for direct linking within the article itself. However, after seeing what goes on behind the scenes here, I have no desire to campaign to get my site listed. If someone comes along and chooses to list it as a resource, fine. If not, so be it.
Joeychgo is trying to cococt a set of arbitrary "rules" that allow him to list his site without the necessity of demonstrating its importance or getting a positive concensus from a majority of editors. This is not the way the Wikipedia works - even if we allowed him to do so today, someone would come along tomorrow and remove the link because it does not fulfill the WP:EL and the cycle would start all over again. There's really no way around it - if you want a site listed as an external link, you need to demonstrate that it is an important resource that fulfills WP:EL guidelines to the satisfaction of the majority of editors interested in that particular article. Any scheme that seeks to bypass this requirement is doomed to fail. In the meantime, the official sites plus the DMOZ listing (which lists both joeychgo's and Brandon's sites among others) is a reasonable alternative. The Sandman 23:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
What is so arbitraty about this?
This ensures some quality, it ensures the site is relevant to the wiki page, and it means we provide resources for our readers. I dont care if there are 10 links, if they are all good ones. People who read this page are looking for information, and what we cant give them here we should give them links to, its that simple.
Now - start there - tell me whats wrong with this? Joeychgo 17:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with it? Several things.
Any editor seeking to add a link to the vBulletin article MUST make their request via the article's talk page and get a concensus opinion of editors before adding it.
This is the one thing we (mostly) all agreed on during the mediation. This purpose of this rule would be to ensure than links are added in accordance with at least some of the WP:EL guidelines. I'm curious - since you agreed to this, why didn't you follow it after the mediation ended rather than list your site in the article again.
Must have existed for a minimum of one year and be an active/consistantly updated site
This is arbitrary and meaningless in the context of ensuring that a site is an important resource. What difference does it make if a site has been up for a month, a year, or ten years? What matters is the quality and quantity of the site's content. And what does "active/consistently updated" mean? To me, it means nothing unless quantified and a standard set. You have resisted every attempt to set any meaningful standards that a site must attain to be eligible for listing, probably because your site is not very active, and is not staffed by nor are posts made by either past or present vBulletin staff members or vBulletin experts as recongized by the vBulletin community. That doesn't make it a bad site, per se, but it does make it unsuitable as an encyclopedic resource.
Must exist first and foremost as a support/community site to support vB users, rather than to sell a product
Similarly, it must consist primarily of free content (content being mods, skins, articles, FAQs, etc) for vB users
The rules are unnecessary because they are covered in the WP:EL. You've only included them because you believe that your site meets these particular guidelines. Perhaps it does, but that doesn't mean you can circumvent all of the other WP:EL guidelines.
Must be primarily dedicated to vBulletin
As I've mentioned several times, this has been discussed at length on the WP:EL Talk Page and it's not necessary for a site to be wholly dedicated to the topic of a particular article - it's only necessary that the site have a specific section dedicated to the topic which meets the other WP:EL guidelines.
This ensures some quality, it ensures the site is relevant to the wiki page, and it means we provide resources for our readers.
"Some" quality? That's quite a qualification - it seems that you do realize that your "rules" require little if any quality. That may be fine for fan sites, or discussion boards, but the Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and the external links are supposed to be important resources.
I dont care if there are 10 links, if they are all good ones. People who read this page are looking for information, and what we cant give them here we should give them links to, its that simple.
I wouldn't care either, if they were truly notable resources. Those looking for information can find your site and the others via the DMOZ link. Only sites that represent unquestionably important resources should be linked directly from the article. The Sandman 22:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As I have said on many occasions - most of your responses are argumentative and/or attacks directed at me and my site. Your bias is clear and obvious.
I was only answering the questions that you asked. We're engaged in a discussion where we disagree on many issues, so I suppose that it's not surprising that you feel like you're being attacked. That's not my intention though.
And what is the quality expectation for DMOZ? The vB section was only recently cleaned up by Alucard after about a year of being ignored.
As of now, the vB section of DMOZ is up to date and appears to be maintained by Alucard. That's really all that matters. As to the "quality expectation" of DMOZ, that's up to the DMOZ editors - clearly they are not as fussy about quality as the Wikipedia is. The beauty of using the DMOZ listing is that by using an "offsite" listing, it allows inclusion of related sites which may not be encyclopedic resources without endorsing them per se and without cluttering up the article with multiple links.
I'll give you that the resources are suppose to be important resources - but thats also relevant to the article. What qualifies as important is what we are trying to decide. Well, some of us have anyway.
An important site, in the encyclopedic sense, would be a site that is mainly based on quality content and is widely recognized by the vBulletin community as an authority site. In my opinion, this means that the content needs to be largely original, with a significant amount written by past or present Jelsoft employees, staff members of the official vBulletin sites, or other vBulletin experts generally recognized by the vBulletin community. Further evidence would include mention in one of the books written about forums in general and vBulletin in particular, a very active membership (at least 1,000 active members), and general acceptance by the vBulletin Community at large as an important resource. The Sandman 21:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
My personal feelings about taz has no weight in my statement,, your site isn't aimed at vBulletin, so it shouldn't be added.. plain and simple ;) -Brandon
Of the 186,119 members of vBulletin.com, your site received a grand total of 24 votes in the two months that the contest was open. Congratulations. Since most if not all of your members are also members of vBulletin.com it is not surprising that you won, since basically all of your members were eligible to vote whereas basically none of the members of the competing forums were eligible to vote. The fact that the only "dedicated to vBulletin" forum in the competition managed so few votes despite the fact that it was held on vBulletin.com is recognition by the vBulletin community of the lack of importance/notability of your site. The Sandman 17:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I didn't say "recognition of the vBulletin community", I said "recognition as an authority site by the vBulletin community". Let's see some evidence of that. The Sandman 20:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Joey's argument is a bit weighted, but it does show that there are Many vBulletin users that find his site useful for vBulletin help. ( btw, of the 200k vb users or w/e was quoted, how many go to vb.com much ?? I can't say that I'm an "active" member of that forum. I didn't even know of this board of the year contest, or I would have surely added my site ) This can not be said for taz, as it's for All forums, not singling out vBulletin as vb-faq Does. So whats really holding this up ? The argument that taz should be in the list is just a bogus request. By the time anything is set here, vBSetup will hit the 1 year make and be eligible for the rules I last agree'd to ;) -Brandon
Yup, that's pretty much what I've noticed.. Those two are the only ones fighting even tho it's Very clear neither site should be on the vb wiki Page.. I still believe vbsetup should be listed, but I understand if it's to new. vbfaq and vbsetup are both still helping 1000's of vBulletin users, and only vb users for Free.. Neither taz or vbportal can say that.. How can you really argue that point ??..lol Oh well, guess we'll watch this for another month :( - Brandon
is this really going to be a year long question ?
50% of the sites that where trying to get listed b4, aren't even up or active anymore.
vBulletin-faq and vBulletinSetup have both been active and growing this whole time. If the question is still should taz be allowed. There is No reason why taz should go, if you are saying because that have "interviews" of vB Devs... Well so you are saying Any site no mater what the content is, as long as they have some interviews from the vb team, then They should be on the wiki page.
and vbportal is denied since they are a commercial site.. Again, if you allow them, then vbseo.com, thevbgeek.com and a number of other paid hack sites should be on the wiki..
The only two sites that should be added from the list of sites who are wanting on are, www.vBulletin-Faq.com and www.vBulletinSetup.com
-Brandon
I tried a version that included taz's interviews - they didnt like that either. vBportal is a dead issue - no questions it doesnt belong. But the sites ive added before - vbfaq, vbsetup, vbmodder, vbadvanced, vbhackers -- all of those belong in the wiki IMO. I wonder if Sandman and Scotsmist are even paying attention to this anymore Joeychgo 17:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I have no problem with agree'ing to the links but whats the hold up ? It's obvious that vbportal and taz shouldn't be in, that leaves the sites Joey just mentioned.. What are we waiting for now ? I hope one of these months these sites are listed "vbfaq, vbsetup, vbmodder, vbadvanced, vbhackers " regards - Brandon
I tried a version that included taz's interviews - they didnt like that either.
We didn't like the fact that you added your own site and Brandon's immediately after a long mediation where the only thing agreed upon by all parties was not adding any links without first obtaining a concensus.
Regarding the sites proposed for inclusion, the only one worthy of serious consideration is vBAdvanced, which is the only one not included in the DMOZ listing, offers something of value for free which is not available elsewhere (including the official sites), has over 60,000 members and maintains a consistent level of activity. This is a reasonable site to be listed as an external link.
vBHackers, while moderately busy, doesn't offer much beyond what is available at the official sites, especially vBulletin.org. The rest of the sites (vbfaq, vbsetup, vbmodder) are lacking in traffic, resources, and especially recognition by the vBulletin community as authority sites. For these reasons, and since these 4 sites are already listed in the DMOZ link, they should not be used as external links. The Sandman 18:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
HAHA,, how can you say sites like vbh, vbfaq and vbsetup are "lacking recognition by the vb community" vbfaq was voted board of the year. ??? Sandman, don't be ignorant, your site should Never be listed because it isn't directed towards vB like ALL the others are. Btw,, vbadvanced ISN'T active either.. In fact, I'd say one forum in vbfaq or vbsetup is busier then all of vba.. So sandman, whats your excuse now ? - Brandon
It's definitely not a commercial forum package, I own a freehold license, I know lots of other people who have them purely for recreational purposes for their website(s), they may be used by companies, however the majority of users of vbulletin seem to be fansite owners, hobbysite owners and personal website owners.
That statement should be amended.
JBAK88 22:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
By 'commercial' it means the software isnt free, its for sale. Joeychgo 17:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Are any popular vBulletin forums, I'm thinking Jolt viewable from a mobile phone? Perhaps through google's xhtml renderer, or Opera Mini?
Mathiastck 06:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Note that the foreign language links might be relevant from German, Chinese, etc versions of this article, but they are not strictly relevant to this one, and, per my reading of WP:EL#Non-English_language_content, don't warrant retention. MrZaiustalk 20:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
This clause strikes me as odd. Isnt it evident that one can compare one forum software to other forum software? Since it links to the article about comparisons of all other forum software, not specifying for instance that its comparable in features to only some particular forums, it doesnt seem to give any information besides that comparisons can be made, which is completely evident. So I suggest this clause be deleted, and the comparison article is given as link in the 'see also' anyways. I see the author of this line (that is, its change from the more specific list of packages it is comparable to ) thinks its unnecessary as well, but I suggest not removing it is overly cautious if simply because someone initiated such a sentence in the first place; lets try seeing if someone actually objects to it not being there, and if there are reasons to support its inclusion; perhaps it was just not well thought out when put there.--83.131.153.198 21:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Will we be able to get the links back on the vBulleitn wiki page sometime this year ? -Brandon
Im willing to consider it Joeychgo 03:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but it seems we were all golden as far as the external links go for close to a year with vb-faq, vbsetup, vbhackers as well as a few others listed. Then Taz and some other sites tried to add their sites, that's when we got all messed up.. -Brandon
Well, first thing I see on WP:EL is
Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article.
Further, it seems as if the WP:EL supports listing a limited number of relevant, external links. I support my previous suggestions for listing external links and would like to re-evaluate the policy on this page. Joeychgo 22:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
So do I - Brandon
It's sad how one or two ppl can ruin something like this. How about you just list the sites that are on the first page of google for "vbulleitn" ? I wish you would reconsider -Brandon
Well, I would 'suggest' the following external links be added:
www.vBulletin-faq www.vbulletinsetup.com www.vbmodder.com www.vbhackers.com
All are free resources dedicated to vBulletin forums. The first 2 are general admin resources which offer advice on how to manage, monetize promote and develop a vBulletin forum. The second two are free resources for vBulletin modifications. It is my opinion that these resources are helpful to the vB admin and each are unique in their own right.
Also, Alucard, I would like to point out that people like sandman also have a conflict of interest in arguing against the listing of sites since they were justifiably denied and are competitors. Having a competing site owner put the kabosh on the listing of a link such as vbfaq or vbsetup smacks of a huge conflict of interest. Joeychgo 17:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I was reading Peak oil and when I got to the external links section, I couldn't help but think of this discussion. I see it's still going on and the bias has not improved. Hopefully it's hit an all-time low with the vBFAQ=chit chat site remark. That is serious slagging. Tsk. Tsk.
I suspect the issue of peak oil is weightier stuff in the grand scheme of things, but the things that stood out on that page are the use of external links sections, the number of external links and the use of a short descriptor text after the link in many instances. And perhaps therein lies some sort of solution.
Perhaps everyone is being just a little too holy as to the number of links. Yes. There needs to be an agreed standard, but by having a number of links with a brief descriptor as to what the reader can expect at the other end would, to my mind, be a valuable encyclopaedic service to what I'd consider the normal reader of the page (whatever normal is)41.244.171.132 09:20, 28 September 2007 (UTC)vbuser
This isn't relevant to the article itself, just the talk page. I noticed that a lot of the recent entries are subsections of section 15. They don't seem to relate to that section so I've created this section simply as a divider. It should make the table of contents a bit more accurate, so long as new entries are added in the same way. JamminBen 12:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
If you look back over this page from the beginning, you will see that it is not "one or two" people who have an issue with joeychgo and brandon, their websites, and their tactics - it is many people (at least 10, including Rob.daemon, Zachery.Woods, Matthew Brown, æle, Rasbelin, Havok, lincalinca, Scotsmist, 2005, Alucard, and some contributors who did not give their names). Back in December '05, there was a big problem with link spamming by joeychgo and others - the concensus at the time was not to list vbfaq and other vbulletin chit chat sites by a margin of at least 3:1 - the solution was to list the official sites and the DMOZ link.
Between December '05 and January '07, although there was never a concensus reached at any time to add vbfaq or other such site, the links were repeatedly added and removed in violation of Wikipedia policy which eventually resulted in the article being locked down for a while and the offending parties being reported. It is interesting to note the the two major offenders were joeychgo and brandon, who at that time were quite hostile with each other and kept removing each other's links while saying nasty things to each other on the talk page. Then miraculously, at the time the mediation was announced, they became allies. Since then, they have made a push to have their own sites (vbfaq and vbsetup), and the sites that they represent (brandon in on the staff of vbmodder and vbhackers) while dismissing other sites as unacceptable.
I personally had nothing to do with the removal of their sites - when I became involved in this discussion back in January of this year, the only sites listed as external links were the same as those currently listed - the two official vBulletin sites, vBulletin.com and vBulletin.org, and the DMOZ listing of vBulletin related sites.
During the mediation, the only thing agreed upon by all parties was that no external links should be added to the article without first having a discussion on the talk page and reaching a positive concensus. Nevertheless, as soon as the mediation was officially closed, the first thing joeychgo did was to list his site and brandon's as an exernal link.
Throughout the history of this article, joeychgo and brandon have exhibited bad behavior, and they should not be rewarded for it. Furthermore, since the initial discussion in December '05, every time joeychgo or brandon have added thier sites, or brought them up for discussion, the concensus has been not to list them as external links, but to keep the official sites and DMOZ listing.
Joeychgo has pointed out that the WP:EL states:
Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article.
I would like to point out some of the other things mentioned in the WP:EL which joeychgo left out:
Links should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links, or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
Some external links are welcome (see "What should be linked", below), but it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justified.
What would justify a site's inclusion as an external link for this article. First, let's look at the WP:RS - specifically, the answer to the question "What is a reliable source?".
Reliable sources are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand.
In my opinion, vbfaq, vbsetup, and vbsetup are not acceptable sites for inclusion as external links. They are not nearly active enough, are not staffed by anyone regarded as an expert in vBulletin (such as former or present official vBulletin personel or other vBulletin experts generally recongized by the greater vBulletin community), do not have any significant content written by such recognized vBulletin experts. These sites contain, in essence, vBulletin chit chat and are not authoritative or trustworthy sources worthy of the Wikipedia.
In addition, these sites offer little if anything beyond that what is available on the official sites, and are already listed in the external links, under the DMOZ vBulletin related links. That is sufficient to give the wiki reader access to these sites should they wish to explore.
I propose that 3 sites be added to the external links: vBAdvanced, vBHackers, and the Admin Zone.
vBadvanced is the source of one of the most widely repected, widely installed free vBulletin modifications, and is the only site on the net for official information and support. This site has more members, and more posts, than vbfaq, vbsetup, and vbmodder put together.
vBHackers, while not all that busy, has more members than vbfaq, vbsetup, and vbmodder put together and offers some modifications not available at the official site. I consider it borderline for inclusion, and brandon (AKA loco) is an administrator there, but nevertheless I propose it for inclusion.
The Admin Zone contains more vBulletin related content that any other vBulletin related site - more than all of them put together. And much of our content is authoritative, having either been written by or reviewed by official vBulletin staff members and/or other vBulletin authorities as recognized by the vBulletin community. We have interviews with quite a few Jelsoft/vBulletin Development and Support Team members, vBulletin.org administrators, and other experts. We have authoritative articles and reviews of scores of vBulletin forums. And we have tens of thousands of posts written by these same experts and others. The Admin Zone has 3 1/2 times as many posts as vbfaq, vbsetup, and vbmodder put together, but it's the reliability and authoritativeness of our content that make this site suitable as an external link.
Of course, joeychgo and brandon don't want TAZ listed, their stated reason being that our topic is too broad since we also cover other forum software. However, as Alucard points out, the WP:EL has evolved, and now states:
If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked.
This removes the obstacle which prevented TAZ from being listed.
With the two official sites, vBAdvanced, vBHackers, the Admin Zone, and the DMOZ vBulletin related site links there would be 6 external links (and those sites such as vbfaq, vbsetup, and vbmodder within the DMOZ listing) - plenty for the article.
Again quoting the WP:EL:
As the number of external links in an article grows longer, assessment should become stricter. When in doubt about the appropriateness of adding new links, make a suggestion on the article's talkpage and discuss with other editors.
Thereafter, in order for other sites to be considered for listing as an external link, they should be required to make a request on the talk page and show justification that they equal or exceed the existing external links in unique, reliable, authoritative content. The Sandman 22:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I have spent the past few years developing the Admin Zone by building reliable, authoritative content. For the most part, I have avoided worrying about SEO and SERPs. Instead, I attracted a large number of vBulletin experts as contributing members and staffers, did a lot of original interviews with the principle vBulletin Developers and support staff and other recognized leaders in the vBulletin world, and amassed at large collection of high quality articles by numerous talented individuals well respected by the vBulletin community.
During this time, joeychgo has avoided worrying about building reliable, authoritative content. Instead, the vast majority of his efforts have been in the SEO and SERP game - dropping his links on as many large, high pr sites as he could, endlessly tweaking his keywords, and doing whatever it is that SEO seekers do.
So it should come as no surprise to anyone that the Admin Zone is now a reliable, authoritative, content-rich site while vbfaq is... not - it's a low trafficked site with very little reliable content... but good SERPs. I'm sure Google and the other search engines love what you've done - but they're search engines, not vBulletin administrators. And with all of that good SEO and SERPs, you'd think you'd vbfaq would have a little more activity and attract some expert contributors. Instead, it's vBulletin chit chat.
According to the WP:EL guidelines, the external link to the Admin Zone needs to point to the "dedicated vBulletin section", which is why it currently points to the vBulletin forum. However, the vast majority of out vBulletin related content is not in that forum - it's in the other sections such as Articles, Interviews, Managing an Online Community, and Finance & Traffic among many others. In my estimation, there are over 30,000 threads (with between 150,000 and 200,000 posts) that are directly applicable to vBulletin users. I plan to make a vBulletin landing page to use as a link instead of simply linking to the vBulletin forum, which will give the wiki reader a better means of navigating TAZ's wealth of vBulletin-related content and resources.
Furthermore, you might notice that the vBulletin wiki article has a link to the wiki article dealing with Comparison of Forum Software. Given that, all of TAZ's content becomes relevant to the article since we have developers and support staff of many of the major alternative software products to vBulletin, and thousands of their members too.
When it comes to a wiki article, what matters is reliable, authoritative content, not SEO and SERPs. The content of the Admin Zone speaks for itself, as does the content of vbfaq. The only obstacle to having the Admin Zone listed as an external link was the wording of the old WP:EL - now that that's been clarified, TAZ should definitely be listed.
I think that my proposal is a reasonable compromise - it lists the Admin Zone, which is clearly appropriate as well as two other sites I'm not affiliated with. vBAdvanced is also appropriate in my opinion since it is the unique source of some extrremely useful free software and is the official support/help site for over 60,000 members. Of the 4 sites joeychgo and brandon proposed for inclusion, I picked the one which is by far the most popular and authoritative site for vBulletin modifications outside of vBulletin.org. The other 3 sites simply don't have the reliable, authoritative content necessary for inclusion, and no amount of SEO and SERP hocus pocus is gonna change that. The fact is, over the past couple of years - long before I ever posted here - the concensus has always gone against adding joeychgo's and brandon's sites whenever they added them. Never has there been a concensus to add them. That has nothing to do with me, my bias, or the Admin Zone. It has everything to do with the lack of reliable, authoritative content. Res ipsa loquitur The Sandman 00:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the sites should be considered separately and have never suggested otherwise. The reason I believe that TAZ should be included as an external link is because it contains a large body of reliable, authoritative, relevant content directly applicable to vBulletin forums of the type specifically mentioned in the WP:EL - articles, reviews, and interviews. And much of this content comes from contributors generally acknowledged to be vBulletin experts. This should be the overriding concern - quantity and quality of relevant content. If vbfaq, vbmodder, and vbsetup for example contained the resources necessary for inclusion in the article, then the inclusion of TAZ might be considered superfluous and the nod given to the more specific "dedicated to vBulletin" sites. This is not the case however - it's the Admin Zone that has most of the authoritative resources for vBulletin outside of the official sites. Chit chat sites - even if "dedicated to vBulletin", should not be listed as external links.
Many respected resources, be they books or websites, have a focus that includes more than one narrow subject. Why should that be a cause for concern? By that reasoning, the Wikipedia itself would have to be considered the world's biggest spammer - it comes up highly in searches for most everything imaginable, and is cited as an authority in countless different matters. The WP:EL specifically allows deep linking to a dedicated section within a more general site as long as the linked materials are reliable, authoritative, and relevant - if you disagree with this then you should take it up on the WP:EL talk page. I will tell you though that there was a large positive concensus on this issue during the discussions that led up to the change being made to the WP:EL.
If you look at the wiki articles for phpBB and IPB, the other two forum software products of the "Big 3", the trend is to list only the official sites. If that is the concensus for vBulletin as well, I have no problem with it (as I have said in the past). However, if additional external links are to be added, it should be on the basis of reliable, authoritative, relevant content. The Sandman 14:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Sandman, you said: I agree that the sites should be considered separately and have never suggested otherwise. But you also said: Chit chat sites - even if "dedicated to vBulletin", should not be listed as external links. What does that have to do with YOUR site? It sounds like you are trying to put forward your own site and then go on to discredit someone else's site. It's comments like this that may have prevented any consensus being reached.
I have put forward my site in the appropriate manner - by bringing it up on this talk page. When I first did so some months ago the general opinion was that TAZ was not eligible due to WP:EL guidelines regarding it's coverage of other forum softwares. I accepted that at the time - however, the WP:EL has changed and it's now clear that TAZ is eligible. This is true regardless of whether any other particular site is listed as an external link.
I also believe that the other sites campaigning to be external links are not appropriate for the reasons I've already given. This is true whether or not TAZ is listed as an external link.
Both joeychgo and brandon are of the opinion that their own sites should be listed, and they also believe that TAZ should not be listed. Do you not take the same issue with them as well? Their alliance in this matter is striking since for a long time they were the two major combatants in the edit wars - they couldn't add their own links and remove each other's links fast enough.
You say there was no concensus but that is not correct. The concensus against joeychgo and brandon existed long before I got here. As I posted a few entries above, between December '05 and January '07 at least 10 editors wanted the links removed - a ratio of at least 3:1 against inclusion. That has never changed. I'm just the latest of many who felt the same way about this issue. Several times joeychgo has implied that he would "OK" TAZ if I would OK his site. Is that the way this is supposed to work?
As for which sites to include, I think you missed my point. I fully appreciate that deep linking to sites with multiple focal points is accepted and allowed on Wikipedia. All I'm saying is that just because it is allowed, doesn't mean all sites automatically get in just by having a vbulletin forum. Regardless of whether it's 100% on-topic or just "chit chat".
And all I'm saying that if additional external links are to be added to the existing list of official sites and DMOZ, they should reflect the existing WP:EL policy and be required to justify thier inclusion with authoritative, reliable, relevant content - particularly articles, reviews, and interviews.
Finally, I think it helps to be as concise as possible when putting your case forward. Long comments are a lot harder to read and digest than short, succinct points.
As a relatively recent arrival to this page myself, I thought it would be helpful for the newcomers if I was to summarize a bit in my narrative. Otherwise you would have to read this entire page from the beginning to get a feel for what went on around here prior to the "mediation". The problem is, although the concensus was always against the addition of certain sites (including joeychgo's and brandon's), they were added anyway and some major edit wars and vandalism took place. Whenever the warring died down and the opponents moved on, the links would be replaced. However, since they were there in spite of a negative concensus, a time always came when someone would come along and remove the links and the problems would begin anew. This was all before my time here - the fact that joeychgo's and brandon's sites are not currently listed in the article has nothing to do with me, as their links were removed prior to the mediation and prior to my arrival here. I've added my opinions to the mix, but I wasn't the cause of their removal - many others have had the same opinion going back over the history of this page. The Sandman 03:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Not a problem. TAZ should be listed because:
I dont see where joeychgo gets this from my statement "By my estimates, at least 30,000 threads (150,000 to 200,000 posts) are directly applicable to vBulletin forum admins". Far more than 10% of the posts on TAZ are applicable to vBulletin - it's more like 75%. And most of the other 25% are at least of interest to the vBulletin admin. Anyone who checks out TAZ will be able to see that it has a wealth of relevant, reliable, and authoritative content on the subject. Of course he won't "get into his own site by comparison". I should note here that during the mediation, the mediator and several participants tried to set up some objective criteria by which vBulletin related sites could be judged reliable and authoritative. It's obvious why joeychgo and brandon would not agree to any criteria based on activity, national or international recognition, Alexa rating, recognized expertise of contributing members or staff, unique features, etc.. This is the main reason the mediation failed.
DigitalPoint would not be appropriate as an external link because it has no section dedicated to vBulletin and has a focus much broader than forum software. vBulletin is only an afterthought there, of no significant concern, and very little of the content on DP is of direct relevance to vBulletin admins. The points I listed above in favor of TAZ are.
The fact that TAZ is not listed in the DMOZ vBulletin list is all the more reason to list it as an external link. If it's not listed, it won't be available to the wiki reader. Sites which are listed in the DMOZ list, on the other hand, need not be listed as they are still accessible to the wiki reader.The Sandman 18:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
"Almost dedicated" is a bit of an oxymoron, but we do have much more extensive coverage of vBulletin than we do the other forum software products due to the large number of official vBulletin staffers and other vBulletin experts who contribute to our site. The Sandman 18:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"do the other forum software products" This is exactly why taz wont make it in the official vBulleitn wiki page. -Brandon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.74.168 (talk) 03:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
So, are we ever going to be able to add some more vb sites to the list ? It's very obvoius that the sandmans site shouldn't be listed, he doesn't even allow users that visit other vb sites, like vb-faq or vbsetup, to join his site.. He'll ban you if you sign up.. Now is this the type of site we want on the vb wiki page ? I think not.. It's pretty amazing since he claims to have a Dr. degree and acts like a kid... We should be networking all the vb help sites, not banning those who are not from your own site.. How long before www.vbulletin-faq.com www.vbulletinsetup.com and www.vbhackers.com gets added to the list again ???
-Brandon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.184.226.137 (talk) 15:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The only intelligible objection to adding The Admin Zone to the list of external links has been that the site is not dedicated solely to vBulletin. While I understand the opinion, the revisions to the WP:EL and opinions of the requested third opinion seem to agree with my asserton that since TAZ has by far the most, and most authoritative, vBulletin resources availabe from any non-official site that it should be listed. Anyone who actually checks out the various sites will see for themselves that TAZ should be an external link for this article, and no one will take any request for adding other sites seriously as long as such a resource as TAZ is excluded. Once TAZ is listed, I personally would not object to the inclusion of one additional link - to the next best available resource. The Sandman (talk) 16:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
You're presenting a false dilemma here - there is no basis for your assertion that we must either leave things as they are or "add a couple of style sites, a couple of commercial sites, a couple of fan sites and so on". It seems perfectly reasonable to me to add the two best overall vBulletin resources to the list of external links, and would also be within the WP:EL guidelines (assuming the two additional sites are of sufficient authority). The Sandman (talk) 17:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Anyone familiar with your personal attacks on this page, and repeated vandalism of the vBulletin article requiring disciplinary action by the Wikipedia staff in the past, can understand why you are banned from TAZ. The same is true for any other person banned from TAZ - it's either due to spamming or disruptive behavior - and certainly not a function of which forums they visit. Regardless, TAZ is by far the most comprehensive and authoritative non-official vBulletin resource available and should be listed as an external link. The Sandman (talk) 03:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Dude, you are such a joke. You had no reason to ban me or my staff, or the staff at AF or vbfaq.. You really think your slick, but I'm not buying it at all. You even told a client that was thinking about buying Adminfusion that if he did, you would ban him and any of his staff. If you had half a brain, you would realize that my "vandalisms" were all within the first few weeks that I even visited the wiki.. I didn't know the rules and since those first few weeks I have never added my link or removed one.. Don't try to live in the past, and get off your high horse. You site belongs on this page just like adminfusion would, or any number of other webmaster forums.. But I'm sure you'll come up with some worthless excuse why your site should be added.. -Brandon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.179.14 (talk) 05:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
You're blowing a lot of smoke, but the fact remains - TAZ is by far the most comprehensive and authoritative non-official vBulletin resource available and should be listed as an external link. Since you have no valid basis to dispute that, and can't justify inclusion of your own site, you make ridiculous accusations which you can't back up and which have nothing to do with the issue at hand. I said above that the two non-official sites with the best vBulletin related resources should be listed - that would be TAZ and one other. Your recommendation of AdminFusion works for me. The Sandman (talk) 06:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Taz doesn't deserve the right to even be in the wiki period with the way You run it. And the fact is, that this page is for vBulletin sites... Not sites that have a "section" for vB discussion. You're site doesn't even deserve to be discussed on the vb discussion page IMO. - Brandon ps.. You know everything I've said is true, any of us who have seen your site come together and have personally dealt with you, can back it up ten fold about your anti-competition banning mentality! - Brandon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.242.179.14 (talk) 16:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not see how listing TAZ or any other non official site is going to benefit the actual content of the article and what vBulletin is. TAZ is a general site and not specific to vBulletin for example, although it has sections on vBulletin and interviews it is not the place one would go th find out about vBulletin, that would be the two official sites, or the DMOZ link directory. If there was anything important on TAZ about vBulletin it should be included somewhere in the article's content and cited. Listing any other sites except the two official and DMoz is going to start the whole thing again. Why is that site listed and my site not argument. Why for example is there is no link to vBulletin's Blog or there other projects, because they are not vbulletin. This page is about the product vBulletin, not sites linked to vbulletin, that's what DMoz s for. Scotsmist (talk) 18:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
TAZ will never be listed on the vb page,it's obvious to everyone, give it up! - Brandon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.7.244 (talk) 00:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Quoting the WP:EL
If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked.
TAZ may or may not be bigger or busier than the others - that sounds like Bill Clinton answering questions about Monica Lewinsky. Regardless, this is about the authority and reliability of a resource, nothing else - joeychgo's reply conveniently leaves out any mention of the most important criteria for inclusion. TAZ has the authoritative and reliable content necessary for inclusion. The requested 3rd opinion agreed - for unclear reasons the party requesting the 3rd opinion hasn't been around since the opinion he asked for was rendered. Unfortunately, certain site owners have been disrupting the listing process by clamoring for inclusion for years despite overwhelming objections by numerous editors. Now, most previously interested parties have long ago moved on, leaving the one best resource for vBulletin admins unlisted because there are no unbiased editors around to voice an opinion. The Sandman (talk) 01:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
How can you honestly say TAZ should be listed. It will never be listed on the vb page because it isn't a site dedicated to vBulletin. So if I get a few phpbb developers to post interviews on my site, then we should be listed on the phpbb wiki page? No, ofcourse not. If anything your interviews are just info that has been regulated on your site.. The original sites (vb.org/vb.com) should be listed.. Not a new site reporting Bio's form the developers... -Brandon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.10.9.28 (talk) 05:46, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I think vBulletin.org is an official site. It's run on Jelsoft's servers, and coordinated by Marco van Herwaarden, a paid Jelsoft employee who's solely recruited for administering it. Also the site itself mentions that it's "The Official vBulletin Modifications Site"[3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimsimTee (talk • contribs) 15:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
vBulletin 3.8 has been released as "Gold" so I took the libery of updating the article.
Source: http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=201060
Regards,
CRaiGaFeR14™ t | c 15:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The forum post is by an official vBulletin team member, not some random person. It's certainly accurate and has been verified by officials representing Internet Brands and the vBulletin team on their official platform for giving information to the vBulletin community. You have no basis to call the information inaccurate. Motivez (talk) 08:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
If someone has issues with the ongoing controversy regarding the AdSense integration on vBulletin.com, please discuss your issues here rather than simply deleting all of the content about it. This is a rather big deal with the vBulletin community and there needs to be some information about it on this page. Nothing I have posted is "original research" and I've provided citations linking to posts by officials at Jelsoft/vBulletin discussing and verifying the text I have added. There's no valid reason to delete the entire entry, if you'd like to discuss what form the section takes, by all means.. post. Until then, stop deleting and start talking. Motivez (talk) 15:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)