- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 21:40, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
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Christian Herwartz
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Christian Herwartz in 2008
... that Christian Herwartz SJ (pictured) was a worker-priest in France and co-founded a community in Berlin open to people in need regardless of nationality, faith and reason?Source: several- ALT1: ... that Christian Herwartz SJ (pictured) lived in an open community in Berlin from 1978 to 2016, and held "street exercises" and peace prayers? Source: several
- Reviewed: Holocaust humor
- Comment: I am not sure that "community" is understood - Kommunität - housing in a few rooms with many beds each, open for all who need that - is there a better word?
- Check please Intentional community. Maybe it fits your need. CeeGee 11:31, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Created by MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 16:49, 1 March 2022 (UTC).
- Comment, I've made a cropped version of the image if you'd prefer to have just Herwartz in the picture. Panini! • 🥪 13:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, yes, that's more focused on him --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:04, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
The article was new enough and long enough at the time of the nomination. A QPQ has been done and no close paraphrasing has been found. I think the first hook is the more interesting of the two proposals; however, the hook facts are not directly cited in the article. That is, the relevant references are mentioned in other parts of the relevant paragraphs, rather than the actual sentence in question. In addition, the nationality, faith and reason" phrasing is only mentioned in the lede (without a reference), and the words "nationality" and "reason" are not mentioned in the article body under that context. Since the sources are all in German I am assuming good faith for their information. Finally, I would suggest removing "SJ" from the hooks as MOS:POSTNOM discourages the use of post-nominals outside of specific circumstances such as article ledes. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:11, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for a helpful review, Narutolovehinata5! I revisited the sources and used their phrasing in lead and article, so also in the hook:
- ALT0a ... that Christian Herwartz SJ (pictured) was a worker-priest in France and co-founded a community in Berlin open to people in need without asking for a reason? Source: Gessler and others
- I wonder if his response "that would be a police question" can be used, - my language skills are too limited.
- I copied the ref about France to almost all sentences which are summarized in the hook. "SJ" is not a honorific suffix, but defines that he is part of a religious order, and which, - just two letters which will tell readers who know such things a lot. IAR? More important for ALT1, though. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would strongly advise against including SJ in the hook. MOS:POSTNOM strongly discourages it and I don't think there's a good reason here as to why it should be exempted per IAR. If it's absolutely necessary to mention that he's a Jesuit priest, the hooks could instead be changed to start like "that Jesuit worker-priest Christian Herwartz..." Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:50, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I am strongly against "Jesuit worker-priest Christian Herwartz", because he wasn't a worker-priest after he retired, and that's precisely when he lived in the community. Misleading. - I am against all descriptions because two letters are just more succinct. POSTNOM deals with "has received honours or appointments", - SJ is not an honour or appointment. The guideline seems not to cover this situation, also it is a guideline for articles, not DYK hooks, where we try to keep things short, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:36, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I use the cropped version of the pic now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:38, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- While religious orders are not directly mentioned at MOS:POSTNOM, the section does link to post-nominal letters, which mentions, among other things, "a member of a religious institute". "SJ" is also specifically mentioned as an example in Post-nominal letters#Examples. Even if religious orders are not directly mentioned in MOS:POSTNOM, if we follow the spirit of the letter, "SJ" would also not be allowed in the hook (it could still be allowed in the article lede, just not the hook). Finally, while MOS:POSTNOM largely applies to articles, DYK does still tend to follow the spirit of MOS in general and so arguably it would still apply for hooks. Plus, if the intent to include "SJ" was to "keep things short", then dropping those extra two letters would make the hook even shorter. It's really unnecessary for the purposes of the hook given it already mentions that he's a priest. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:48, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for telling me that two letters less is shorter, - not without sarcasm, can't help. - Being a priest does not imply anything about being member of a monastic order, let alone which order. I still believe that it helps those who understand SJ, and there's a link for the others. In the spirit of information. Again, if a prep builder feels that it's not helpful, they can drop it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:44, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- While religious orders are not directly mentioned at MOS:POSTNOM, the section does link to post-nominal letters, which mentions, among other things, "a member of a religious institute". "SJ" is also specifically mentioned as an example in Post-nominal letters#Examples. Even if religious orders are not directly mentioned in MOS:POSTNOM, if we follow the spirit of the letter, "SJ" would also not be allowed in the hook (it could still be allowed in the article lede, just not the hook). Finally, while MOS:POSTNOM largely applies to articles, DYK does still tend to follow the spirit of MOS in general and so arguably it would still apply for hooks. Plus, if the intent to include "SJ" was to "keep things short", then dropping those extra two letters would make the hook even shorter. It's really unnecessary for the purposes of the hook given it already mentions that he's a priest. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:48, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would strongly advise against including SJ in the hook. MOS:POSTNOM strongly discourages it and I don't think there's a good reason here as to why it should be exempted per IAR. If it's absolutely necessary to mention that he's a Jesuit priest, the hooks could instead be changed to start like "that Jesuit worker-priest Christian Herwartz..." Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:50, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I brought the matter up at WT:DYK and they said that SJ is unnecessary to the main hook fact and also violates MOS:POSTNOM, which gives specific exceptions (which doesn't include DYK hooks). Thus, it seems that the SJ mention has to be removed per comments made by other editors. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:03, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- I replied there. In greater length then, following the letter of a guideline:
- ALT0b: ... that Christian Herwartz (pictured) became a Jesuit worker-priest in France, and co-founded a community in Berlin open to people in need without asking for a reason?
- ALT1a: ... that Christian Herwartz (pictured), a Jesuit who lived in an open community in Berlin from 1978 to 2016, held "street exercises" and peace prayers?
- I prefer ALT1 because of the peace prayers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Apologies for the delay, but both ALT0b and ALT1a are now approved. Image is okay and properly licensed. I am leaving the final choice in hook to the promoter. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:33, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
