- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:24, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
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Jack Hoffman
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- ... that seven-year-old brain cancer patient Jack Hoffman (pictured) scored a touchdown for Nebraska and subsequently met with President Barack Obama?
- Reviewed: Northern birch mouse
Created by I am One of Many (talk). Self nominated at 19:58, 17 May 2014 (UTC).
- Comment I've moved the "pictured" to make it clear that it is Jack Hoffman in the photo. We all know it's Barack Obama too, so there's no need to point that out. Also no need to link Obama. I've also removed "pediatric", as the "seven-year-old" immediately before renders it redundant. Edwardx (talk) 14:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I know that pediatric appears redundant but it is not. Pediatric brain cancer is one of the most common if not the most common childhood cancer. Jack's notability started from having pediatric brain cancer, which is understudied. Note also pediatric is not a specific age, but an age range, so you can have 5-year olds with pediatric brain cancer and 10-year olds with pediatric brain cancer. No sources at all describe him as a brain cancer patient, they give his age and that he has pediatric brain cancer. It is also possible to be a child and have brain cancer that is not pediatric brain cancer. This can occur when other cancer becomes metastatic and spreads to the brain. Finally, the congressional resolution citing Jack refers to him as a "7-year-old pediatric brain cancer patient". So, leaving out "pediatric" means that it is not adequately sourced. I am One of Many (talk) 16:05, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I'm always happy to be persuaded by a well-considered and nuanced argument (and to learn something)! I've reinstated "pediatric". Edwardx (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks! I am One of Many (talk) 18:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- I was the first user to remove "pediatric" from the hook and I didn't think it was worth making a fuss about when you re-added it, but since it's been brought up by someone else I'll jump in too. I'm not sure what kind of medical knowledge you have but from the sounds of your comment above, and the medical parts of the article, it seems like you're misunderstanding some basic concepts about cancer. Pediatric brain cancer is not a type of brain cancer - it is a way of categorising it based on the patient's age. The type of cancer it sounds like Hoffman has is brainstem glioma (which, for what it's worth, can occur in children or adults). Your statement It is also possible to be a child and have brain cancer that is not pediatric brain cancer. This can occur when other cancer becomes metastatic and spreads to the brain. is also blatantly wrong - a cancer originating from another organ that spreads to the brain is not brain cancer, plain and simple. The main point I want to make is that any brain cancer in a 7-year-old is "pediatric brain cancer", simply by virtue of the patient's age; it's impossible for a 7-year-old to have a non-pediatric brain cancer. The hook as you've written it isn't wrong, it's just redundant. 97198 (talk) 08:06, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct that I misspoke when I said that metastatic cancerous tumors in the brain are brain tumors. What I should have said is that sometimes people confuse the two types. It is not likely he has brainstem glioma because those are generally inoperable and by looking at the location of the scar on his head. I think the reason all of the sources always refer to his brain cancer as pediatric brain cancer is because these cancer types differ in frequency with age and treatment can be different than in adults. I am One of Many (talk) 15:10, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, many people do confuse primary and secondary tumours (i.e. originating from the brain or metastised to there) but adding the word "pediatric" does not address that issue at all; saying "pediatric" simply means "occurring in a child". I reiterate that any brain cancer in a 7-year-old is pediatric brain cancer! 97198 (talk) 11:21, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, but there are two points to consider. The treatment, approach, and outcomes for pediatric brain cancers differ from there corresponding adult occurrences. I think that this is why all the sources always use pediatric cancer; they are referring to these differences. Since the sources do combine age and pediatric cancer together, it is most accurate to the sources to do so here. I am One of Many (talk) 14:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
- All the sources do not always say pediatric brain cancer - many of them don't. But despite this long conversation, I recognise that it isn't actually a super huge deal to include an extra word in the hook (redundant it is; inaccurate it isn't), so if you really insist I won't argue anymore. All I'm saying is that to readers who are familiar with basic medical terminology and concepts, it looks pretty silly. 97198 (talk) 11:56, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with 97198, and while I can't summon up much enthusiasm anymore, including "pediatric" looks wrong. Edwardx (talk) 12:01, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- I think that if both of you think it sounds odd, others will too, so I deleted pediatric. I am One of Many (talk) 16:43, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- All the sources do not always say pediatric brain cancer - many of them don't. But despite this long conversation, I recognise that it isn't actually a super huge deal to include an extra word in the hook (redundant it is; inaccurate it isn't), so if you really insist I won't argue anymore. All I'm saying is that to readers who are familiar with basic medical terminology and concepts, it looks pretty silly. 97198 (talk) 11:56, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, but there are two points to consider. The treatment, approach, and outcomes for pediatric brain cancers differ from there corresponding adult occurrences. I think that this is why all the sources always use pediatric cancer; they are referring to these differences. Since the sources do combine age and pediatric cancer together, it is most accurate to the sources to do so here. I am One of Many (talk) 14:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, many people do confuse primary and secondary tumours (i.e. originating from the brain or metastised to there) but adding the word "pediatric" does not address that issue at all; saying "pediatric" simply means "occurring in a child". I reiterate that any brain cancer in a 7-year-old is pediatric brain cancer! 97198 (talk) 11:21, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct that I misspoke when I said that metastatic cancerous tumors in the brain are brain tumors. What I should have said is that sometimes people confuse the two types. It is not likely he has brainstem glioma because those are generally inoperable and by looking at the location of the scar on his head. I think the reason all of the sources always refer to his brain cancer as pediatric brain cancer is because these cancer types differ in frequency with age and treatment can be different than in adults. I am One of Many (talk) 15:10, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Full review of article needed, now that hook issues have been settled. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
A great story and a very nice article. Length, date, and complaince with policy all check out. Fact is very interesting and backed by inline citations. Picture is freely license, but not so clear at 100px. I suggest cropping it (and saving a separate pic, of course) to just show Jack; otherwise it likely will not be used. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:51, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review. Ideally, the current image would be placed near the awards section (some day). I'll try cropping it down to his face with the scar and see how it looks. I'll then move the original image down to the awards section. If it doesn't look good, well we best not use the image. I am One of Many (talk) 17:54, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
- ThaddeusB, how does this cropped image look? I am One of Many (talk) 18:20, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
