Hey CTSWyneken. I just wanted to tell you that I have returned due to your’s and others kind messages and emails. I missed this encyclopedia, and I have missed you as well. I really appreciate all that you have done for me. Matt B."aka" Thetruthbelow 06:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bob, I have always kept away as I'm not knowledgable about this subject. I would however say your interpretation of WP:V is correct. If wikipedia relied on on-line sources only we would have loads of articles on conspiracy theories and pornography and nothing else! As for the quote - if it does unbalance the article it probably should be precised but I do prefer to see the true quote if possible. You are quite correct that this is the discussion you should be having as you seem to have enough links to justify inclusion.
If you wish I'm happy to say on the talk page that as someone at ideological odds with you, I feel you are always true to your sources and can be trusted to fairly sumarize a quote. I don't want to flame the debate but if it gets bad I'm happy to get up to speed and try to make a dispassionate assessment. As a complete non-expert, the main influences I generally see quoted for the holocaust are Richard Wagner and the pervasive europe wide anti-semitism at the time. Legends such as Ivanhoe and Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice testify to this. Again - without knowing indepth the subject I always thought Luther was just agreeing with what was commonly thought of as "right" at the time. Not a justification but an understanding of historical context. Sophia 20:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey CTS, I have a question about the Martin Luther article. The following quote from the heading Martin Luther and the Jews concerns me. It says
CTS, you know my feelings on whether I think Martin Luther was an anti-semite, but I have to object to the quote. While he launched no military campaign, he did start a literary one. In On the Jews and Their Lies you must know of where he, and I quote from the article,
This seems to contradict the quote in the Martin Luther article, and I would like for you to address it. Please let me know what you think on my talk page. Matt B."aka" Thetruthbelow 03:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
CTSWyneken,
In Vermont, the Vermont Board of Libraries is, oddly enough, in charge of geographic place names.
In April of 2006, after long-standing requests by town residents to revert to the original spelling, "Alburgh," the Board gave Alburgh back the "h" that a postmaster had removed over a hundred years ago.
See http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20060419&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=60419002&SectionCat=&Template=printart for documentation that Alburgh did in fact change its name in April of 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joelfurr (talk • contribs)
How about the preface to Luther's commentary on Romans? It is available, for free, on the Internet here. I found some things mentioning justification and Christ here.
http://www.ccel.org/l/luther/romans/pref_romans.html Ptmccain 20:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll weigh in on some of those footnotes, but it strikes me that it may be worth soliciting the editors who are warring over some of these things to participation in an informal mediation on the article. It just looks to me like no one is getting past the disputes and focusing on making the article better - and every article can always be better. Sam 22:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Please don't clog my or other user pages with meritless accusations. They are disruptive.WP:POINT.
Reporting that I had received an email from an unnamed editor that contained vicious anti-Semitic comments, such as that certain named "Jewish administrators" were making "anti-Luther" comments in the Martin Luther article, is not a "personal attack." I did not name that editor. However, if it is permitted by Wikipedia poilicy I will post that email in full, so that its contents may be judged by the community. --Mantanmoreland 16:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe it should be, and will be, fully aired. It is germane to a discussion that you commenced. You contend, without evidence, that unnamed editors are "anti-Lutheran." That't not a personal attack, in your view. But I am saying, with evidence, that two editors are anti-Jewish. One is the edit summary I quoted and the other is the personal email. Now you and CTS are screaming, without merit, "personal attack!" You opened the door. I walked through it. Don't silence discussion that is not going your way.--Mantanmoreland 16:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, CTS. I am not the one who commenced a discussion on the Martin Luther talk page of supposed editor religious prejudice. That was commenced by Drboisclair, impugning the motive of editors who disagree with him by saying that such and such "is the view of those who have a strong POV against Luther and Lutherans."
I have seen similar irresponsible, manipulative comments made in the past in Martin Luther-related articles. They are a real problem and I have spoken out on the subject in hte past.
Drboisclairthen stated "Jewish POV is acceptable, Lutheran POV is not. That is what is going on here."
These are appalling comments.
I responded to this ugliness by pointing out, inter alia, that bigoted remarks were made to me in an edit summary and private emails by two separate editors. Rather than condemning or apologizing for them, you and Drobisclair compound matters by screaming "personal attack."
You show no outward expression of dismay at comments of the kind I just quoted when expressed by people who are allies with your position on Martin Luther, but jump up and down at even the slightest hint of lack of sympathy toward Luther. So please spare me the condescending lectures. --Mantanmoreland 19:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the invite, but I have nothing to say. Looks like the same debate over who qualifies as a reliable source. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
WP:RFC time? If you have several editors with complaints over repeated incidents of behaviour RFC is probably the place to bring it. You may also receive outside view responses with varying degrees of moderation, you can probably see from those if you're doing the right thing as well. Petros471 21:59, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I was looking at you current signature, CTS Wyneken(talk), and wondering why you have a redundant link to your talk page?
You could write it as follows with no change to function.
Another advantage is that it reduces the signature by 84 characters. David D. (Talk) 17:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, this particular issue gets me close to home because I am Catholic. Just as Lutherans are put in the very uncomfortable and self-challenging position of having to deal with Luther's anti-Semitism, Catholics have some uncomfortable and fairly catastrophic things of our own to deal with, high among them being the state of the Church that led to and caused the second great split in the Church and the persecutions that occurred before and after that split. I do believe, however, that the introduction I wrote gives appropriate coverage to the anti-Semitism issue, which needs good, solid coverage. Sam 17:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
A separate issue: I find "Papists" to have a strong negative connotation in current parlance, and so avoid it, even though I know it was often used at the time. I try to remember to stick the "Roman" in front of Catholicism because I know there are a number of Protestant denominations that still claim to be catholic, but would object strenuously to the use of "Papist". Sam 18:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by admins or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. --Mantanmoreland 17:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Forgive me for what will be a long-winded response. I have been holding my tongue on these issues very consciously, since, among other things, I like to really know what I am talking about before I weigh in. But, since you have asked, I will answer (and I would answer and answer the same way regardless of who asked).
I have not read Siemon-Netto, so I don't have a strong view on the quality of his work. He is on my reading list, but it is a very long list and I haven't gotten to even tracking down his CV and seeing what is easily available. I have read Shirer, and my view of Shirer is that he writes an exceedingly good book, and that, for a journalist, he is reasonably careful on historical issues. I think Manmoreland's summary overstates Shirer's credentials as an historian, though it should be obvious that Shirer is one of the more important popularizers of history around and he is more careful about his work than many popularizers. My understanding is that Shirer follows, to a great degree, A.J.P. Taylor on these issues (though, again, I would have liked to have done more spade work on this before making that conclusion). A.J.P. Taylor is both a very thorough and very controversial historian. While I personally would not hesitate to cite him, any cite to him is likely to result in an ad hominem attack against him, which I view as regrettable, inappropriate and inevitable. In terms of statements on the relative credentials of historians, I posted some thoughts in the FAC process, the bottom line of which is I see no need for any credentials to be recited in the body for any scholar.
I believe there are good ways to get a rough measure of the weight accorded to academic works within the profession. The first and most useful is to look at reviews in academic journals. Reviews of individual books are useful, but broad historiographies by authorities in a field are even more useful. I had earlier posted two reviews I found, one of Shirer and one of Siemon-Netto; I will see if I can find that posting. A second approach is to look at how they are cited in academic journals (not just how many times, but also how favorably). Siemon-Netto, of course, will be cited less frequently because he is more recent, but still, a pattern of regular favorable citation in academic journals establishes legitimacy. But it is also essential to read these authors before judging their work. Obviously, the question of the underlying causes of the Holocaust is among the most important questions of our time, and there is an enormous body of work on it, and some level of survey of that body is essential to determining importance and legitimacy of scholarly work. Establishing credibility requires much spade work, reflecting the fact that good history is hard. Sam 14:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Grunberger not Shirer.--Mantanmoreland 14:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry; I confused authorities debated over. I've been mulling over this whole dust-up on sources. So, my views on Shirer are thrown in. My views on Grunberger: I read what was assigned to me during an upper level history course on Resistance Movements during World War II, and it seemed a good book written for a general audience. I wouldn't hesitate to cite it. That brings up another way of getting to underlying credibility: something that shows up on course syllabi in specialized history programs. Sam
Just let you know, User:SOPHIA has retired. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 17:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi all,
I installed oracle 10g in RHEL-3.0 AS update5 .After that i created one DBA role user in that oracle server.Now i can login into that user locally,but through remote machine i cant get the connection.what will i do for this problem. Please reply me as soon as possible
Regards
Blessy
Bob, I think that you deserve this as well as any honor that this website can afford. It is my honor to edit with you. Soli Deo Gloria.--Drboisclair 05:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Re your mail... not sure what you mean. If you mean this [1] then I can't see that as any problem. I don't think you were justified in removing it William M. Connolley 20:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)