The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. A Train ^{take the} 18:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alejandro Zamora[edit]

Alejandro Zamora (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View log)

Article appears to be created by the subject, and raises questions of notability adavidw 21:01, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Answer: I am just a friend of Alejandro Zamora introducing him to Wikipedia. He meets several criterias for insertion, so please let me finish my job and dont edit his page again. Thanks.

Alejandro Zamora cannot be deleted from Wikipedia for the following reasons:

He born to be a musician. He is a new age musician now, he does have composed and recorded several albums on his country, and he does have a website on the Internet.

Furthermore, he meets several of the criterias for inclusion.

1. Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable).

2. Has won or placed in a major music competition.

3. Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show.

4. Has established a tradition or school in a particular genre.

5. Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:MUSIC

Please do not remove the deletion notice from the article. See Wikipedia:Guide to deletion as per the notice. If I were you, I would continue to improve the article, in style and substance, but leave the notice there. Other users of Wikipedia will then contribute to the debate about whether the article should be kept - the better the article, and the more justification you can find, the more likely it is to be kept. Stephenb (Talk) 21:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

If you are notable, someone else will write an article about you. Wikipedia is not a place for self-promotion. MKoltnow 17:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Answer for MKoltnow: I am a fan of Alejandro Zamora, and I am introducing him to Wikipedia, so please do not delete it again. Thanks.

Well this brings up somewhat of a conundrum.

Let us assume that you are, indeed, not Alejandro Zamora. We will also, for the purpose of this discussion, assume that Zamora is notable, per wikipedia guidelines. Therefore, your username is somewhat inappropriate, as it implies that you are someone well-known, when you are not. It will also always give the impression of conflict of interest when people look at the edit history of an article such as the one on Zamora. (We avoid conflict of interest, when possible, since one of the wikipillars is having a neutral point of view, something which is a challenge when you write about yourself or someone you are close to.) As a possible remedy, consider changing your username to Zamorafan or something which makes it clear you are not Zamora himself.

The other possibility is that you are actually Zamora himself. We assume good faith until we have reason not to. At the same time, edits to an article by the subject of it will always seem suspicious. Autobiographical articles tend to have trouble with POV, and sometimes get away from what the author intended. (WP:AUTO states this better.)

Welcome aboard. Happy editing. MKoltnow 23:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

SO, case closed. I am going to remove the deletion tag because I dont get any answer from you. Furthermore, the person that you are trying to erase meets several wikipedia criterias for insertion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alejandrozamora (talk • contribs) — Alejandrozamora (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Weak Keep - your arguments for notability are compelling but that does NOT make it CASE CLOSED by any stretch of the imagination. Consensus is required to determine whether the case is indeed closed. See Wikipedia:Consensus Plymouths 22:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Changing my vote to Delete - the author has failed to convince me that any of the above claims are true. (If they were true it would be notable, but I see no evidence). Plymouths 07:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting my entry to what I actually wrote - weak keep crossed out and replaced with delete. And don't change it again! Revising history will not save your wiki page from deletion. Plymouths 14:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I am agree, but trying to erase an artist like him or Yanni from Wikipedia, or from another place, is impossible. He is an new age musician, and he must be included on the list of new age musicians of Wikipedia. Furthermore, he meets several criterias for the insertion on Wikipedia. Now, if you are agree, and all the world here is agree, we can reach a common agree. So, I will be glad if the case is closed, and you can leave me to do my job. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alejandrozamora (talk • contribs) — Alejandrozamora (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I hope it's not your JOB - if you're being paid to write this page that's a conflict of interest! Also, please sign your comments from now on. Just put in 4 tildes like this ~~~~. Thanks. Plymouths 22:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More to the point, it's a bannable offense. Considering this is an outright admission of guilt I'd say the article should be Speedy Deleted. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 22:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's a possibility that the author didn't mean it like that. Based on their gramatical style it appears that the author's primary language is something other than english and they're not fluent, so there's a good chance the author doesn't fully understand the definition of the word "job" (then again that's a pretty good argument for them not editing the english version of wikipedia, though that's probably outside the scope of this discussion as a poorly written article can be cleaned up by a native speaker rather than being deleted). Plymouths 23:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy Delete; subject admits that he is violating WP policy, and blatantly flaunts it. --Mhking 23:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: He is an new age musician, and he must be included on the list of new age musicians of Wikipedia.

Apples with apples, and oranges with oranges.

If he is a new age musician, he must be placed where all the artists of this kind are placed, of the same way like you place new fruits on Wikipedia, so apples must be placed where all the fruits are placed.

Furthermore, I remember you that he meets several criterias for the insertion on Wikipedia, and he cannot be deleted, of the same way like stars cannot be deleted from the sky. Zamorafan 00:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC) — Zamorafan (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

That's very poetic, but it doesn't really answer the question of whether or not Mr. Zamora is notable. Are you the same user as User:Alejandrozamora? --adavidw 00:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have changed my username to zamorafan to avoid confussions. Zamorafan 00:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am agree with you zamorafan. apples are fruits and he must stay in the list. Bbgirl 00:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC) — Bbgirl (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

• Delete As it stands this is purely spam; claims to "several albums" is not substantiated or referenced; as are the other claims of notability. It's simply a linkfarm for his personal sites.

• Note Would the closing admin check for sockpuppetry here, and take appropriate action(s); suspected are:

Zamorafan

Bbgirl

Alejandrozamora

Muchas gracias! SkierRMH 01:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment On my recommendation (perhaps, see User Talk:Alejandrozamora), the user willingly admits (see above) now to be editing using Zamorafan, so that certainly should not be considered sockpuppetry. The edit history for the second username is entirely subsequent to the edit history for the first. MKoltnow 01:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: By the way, Alejandro Zamora is a NOTABLE artist. He meets several criterias for insertion on Wikipedia. He does have recorded several CDs and furthermore he does have a website on the Internet, so anyone who is saying that he is not NOTABLE is trying to hide the sun with a finger.Zamorafan 01:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I have finished of updating the website of Alejandro_Zamora on Wikipedia. So, please it is time to reach a common agree to place the apples where the apples belongs, and keep this new age musician in the list of new age musicians. Zamorafan 02:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - This article provides no verifiable sources to establish notability. This is a clear abuse of Wikipedia. - Shaundakulbara 05:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep There is enough proof of notability and he meets several criterias for insertion on Wikipedia. #1 He does have recorded several CDs, #2 he does have won several awards of music on his country, #3 he does have performed public concerts, #4 he does have composed music for radio and tv shows, #5 and he does have a website on the Internet... so, what more you want? an interview with LARRY KING on CNN to get notability? He is not so notable like Yanni, but he already meets several criterial for insertion on Wikipedia, and to be honest, anyone who is unable to see that he is a new star, is a blind person. Perhaps, if we are able to open our eyes and our hearts, we can see that a new star is shining on the sky today. Zamorafan 06:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as spam, conflict of interest, lack of verification, insufficient notability. Montco 06:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Montco, as was said above, "perhaps, if we are able to open our eyes and our hearts, we can see that a new star is shining on the sky today." I'm joking of course. I already voted to delete. Shaundakulbara 07:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Sorry, but I cant understand your joke, perhaps you have a bad sense of humor or I am unable of laughing of bad jokes. Zamorafan 15:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I vote to keep it. Just like apples cant be deleted from Wikipedia, u cant delete this star of the sky. Bbgirl 14:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Thanks Bbgirl. At least you still have eyes. [User:Zamorafan|Zamorafan]] 15:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep I VOTE TO KEEP IT. I guess that I already voted, but I want to leave public certainty of my votes. Zamorafan 15:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Okay. You have made your claims of notability. Please let the discussion run its course. It does not help your case (and may hurt) that you have voted twice and comment frequently. MKoltnow 16:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I was willing to hold off on a decision, but googling the subject's name along with names of several of the albums in the discography produces either no hits or unrelated hits. And yes, I can read Spanish. I can only conclude that the article is original research, even if we were to stipulate notability. MKoltnow 16:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Wikipedia or Google is not a reliable source to judge the notability of a person. There are a lot of notable musicians around the world that have recorded hundred of albums and Google does not show nothing or show unrelated hits. Furthermore there are a lot of notable new age artists like MEHDI[1] that are not included inside of Wikipedia, so I suggest you to re-think again your vote.Zamorafan 17:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are not in a position to dictate whether or not something must be included in Wikipedia. Rules and guidelines exist to make that determination. And given that Mr. Zamora does not meet those guidelines, and given that you, by your own admission, flaunt those rules and guidelines, the page should be deleted. And attempts to influence this by way of creating multiple accounts to act as separate people is also a violation of the guidelines of Wikipedia, and is eligible for punitive measures as dictated by WP rules. In short, you have driven a hole in your own boat. Enjoy the sinking. --Mhking 19:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: #1 I am not dictating if something must be included or not in Wikipedia, or Google. #2 I just have said that Wikipedia and Google are NOT a reliable source of knowing if a person is notable or not #3 I have changed my username from alejandrozamora to zamorafan per suggestion of MKoltnow #4 Your arguments are ambiguous and inconsistent to be considered like a vote to delete the page #5 I suggest you to fix the holes of your own boat before of searching holes in other boats. Zamorafan 19:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep I vote to keep it. I have purchased several albums on his country. I am from Venezuela and this kind of music is hard to find here because salsa, merengue and latin music is predominant. However, you can find his CDs only in selected music shops, or ordering them directly from his website. Zhakira 22:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC) — Zhakira (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
• delete how can this be kept--there is not a single review or other outside mention on the page? ILIKEHISMUSIC would be fine if an established RS said it in print/web in a Verifiable way.DGG 01:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Are you using Google to find a review and judge the notability of a person? So, if Google cant find a single review of an artist, should not be included in Wikipedia? Did you know that there are a lot of notable artists around the world that his names produces no results on Google or Wikipedia? Have you tried MEHDI[2] on Wikipedia or Google? Zamorafan 03:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, DGG is using YOUR ARTICLE - YOU haven't provided a single reference in the article. It is your responsibility to do that if you want to prove notability, not ours. Please find some references to this guy somewhere and post them in the article! And that person MEHDI you linked to has albums for sale at Amazon.com. I search amazon.com for Alejandra Zamora and I don't find anything. Is there anywhere one can actually buy music by this guy? What is his record label and do they have a webpage? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here but you're not making it easy. Plymouths 06:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Changing my vote to Delete - the author has failed to convince me that any of the above claims are true. (If they were true it would be notable, but I see no evidence). Plymouths 07:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: You are asking 3 questions at 6:59 UTC and 5 minutes later you are changing your vote from Weak Keep to Delete. Its no fair play! Questions are generally answered within hours, but I would be glad to answer your questions now: #1 you can buy his CDs from his website. #2 The record label does not have a website. #3 If you want more references I recommend to travel to Venezuela. So, please keep or change your vote again when you have finished reading this message. I remember you that Alejandro Zamora meets several requirements to qualify in Wikipedia (although only one is needed). Zamorafan 17:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I changed my vote AFTER you answered my questions and I found the answers insufficiently convincing. You deleted that part but you can't change history - wikipedia still has a record of the prior version of the page so you won't fool anyone. Plymouths 14:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Carpet-chewingly annoying article and subsequent debate. As always, we need to see reliable independent references to support claims of notability. These are not provided. Delete. WMMartin 15:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: If you want to get reliable independent references besides his website, you will need to: #1 buy his CDs, from his website, or from selected music shops of his country, #2 you will need to travel to Venezuela and listen the local radio AM/FM networks to catch his music, or #3 tuning local TV networks to catch his music on the background of ads or TV news, #4 joining his music school, and #5 perhaps if you travel to Venezuela you would have the luck enough to catch him doing a public performance in a national event. I rememeber you that Google or WP is NOT a reliable source to know if a musician is notable or not. There is still a lot of notable musicians that Google or Wikipedia produces no results or unrelated hits like MEHDI[3] or another notable musicians. Zamorafan 18:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment #1: There is a lot of musicians on Wikipedia without websites on the Internet or any kind of external links, without album information, and without biographies or with poor or no information about the artist. He at least meets several requirements to qualilify for insertion in Wikipedia (although only one is needed). Furthermore, I remember you that MEHDI began to sell his CDs from his website, of the same way that Alejandro Zamora, before of selling his albums on Amazon.com. The label record printed on his CDs is Z-records, and apparently this company does not have website. However, you can order his CDs directly from his website, or you will need to travel to Venezuela to buy his CDs on selected music shops as said Zhakira. Zamorafan 16:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment #2: About the differences between notable musicians, the merits of how they reached to be famous is a thing very important when judging the notability of a musician. In my humble opinion (and from a neutral point of view), Yanni had to travel from Greek to the USA to be a notable musician , MEHDI traveled from Iran to USA to be a notable musician. Pedro Eustache the venezuelan flutist traveled from Venezuela to USA and joined to the Yanni orchestra to be a notable musician. Alejandro Zamora has not traveled to USA to be a notable musician, of the same way like Raul Di Blasio was famous from Argentina without traveling to USA, or Kitaro from Japan. So, you can see that too much people think that the easy way is travel to USA to be a notable musician. Perhaps, Alejandro Zamora chose the hard way to be a notable musician from a socialist country where Internet access is really very expensive, latin music is predominant and piano or new age music is very rare, so I believe that he is at least doing his best effort to reach the top of mountain from the bottom, without using a copter to reach the top, or traveling to USA, to be notable. Zamorafan 16:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment #3: However, if you travel to this country you can listen his music on local AM/FM radio networks and like backgroung music on local TV ads and news. He often made public perfomances in some national events, and does have a music school on his country where I had the opportunity to meet him. He knows to play several musical instruments besides of the piano, and he always repeat to his pupils that he himself learnt to play piano "without a teacher" when he was very young with his own computer using a system that is not available today, called the Miracle Piano Teaching System. Zamorafan 16:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Final Note: I still guess that we will reach a common agree to keep this musician in Wikipedia because he meets several requirements for insertion (although only one is needed). Furthermore, there are a lot of musicians on Wikipedia without websites, no external links, no album information, and without biographies or with poor or no information about the artist. So, if this musician is deleted from Wikipedia, we would have to delete a lot of musicians or whole categories from Wikipedia too (including a lot of people from The List of Garage Rock Bands or from The List of Punk Bands). Zamorafan 17:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Message to SysOp / Admin: Please, close this debate and KEEP the page of Alejandro Zamora. He already meets several requirements for insertion in Wikipedia. Thanks. Zamorafan 04:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Ugh. Delete, non-notable, sockpuppetry by subject of article. —bbatsell ¿? 05:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete non WP:V, apparent COI, insincere article. Blitz fame claim campaign by astroturfing SPA army eases the decision.—MURGH ^disc. 10:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep Ive bought several cd's from his website and Ive heard his music through national radio and TV too. Vmusic 21:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC) — Vmusic (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

• Delete Non notable, the account of the largest supporter has been deleted, along with several of the other accounts that supported keeping. Looks like blatant puppetry, and when finally called on it they took their toys and went home. Improbcat 21:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Answer: You are wrong. He is notable and he meets several requirements for insertion on Wikipedia (although only one is needed). Furthermore, nobody was deleted, sock puppetry is totally false, and FRANKLY, all of us should check The List of Garage Rock Bands or The List of Punk Bands) before of posting again another message to delete this page, because we would have to delete a lot of garbage from these pages before of deleting a real musician Zamorafan 23:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll target those pages next. --adavidw 02:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: You will have a white and long beard like Santa Claus when you have finished of removing all the garbage that you will find on those pages. However, you will need another life if you want to remove more garbage from another lists like the List of rappers, or the List of funk musicians.

Zamorafan 14:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Message to admin adavidw: I guess that we have reached a common agree to keep this page because he meets several requirements for insertion on Wikipedia. Furthermore, it seems that you started this AfD debate, so please delete this page from the list of articles for deletion and KEEP the page of Alejandro Zamora. Zamorafan 15:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Are we being trolled or is this tragic comedy? Shaundakulbara 15:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: You should check The List of Garage Rock Bands before of posting jokes here. Zamorafan 16:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.