The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Note: After discounting WP:SPAs by weighting together as one, consensus is for deletion. Cirt (talk) 15:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alexander Schukoff

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A non-notable filmmaker, whose article on Wikipedia qualifies as Wikipedia:Autobiography since it was written by himself and his wife. Plus there are no sources for this article besides his own website and IMDb. --bender235 (talk) 14:00, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Austria-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. When the subject himself can't come up with better sources than imdb and youtube, he's clearly not notable. Wine Guy Talk 10:54, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

keep . At least 5 records in the International Movie Data Base IMDB-Schukoff proof that Schukoff worked as director and producer for the movies and for international tv-stations. Plus there are many records about his works besides IMDB and his official website you can find in the pages of international media in internet. For example ORF (Austrian Broadcasting Company) http://tvsales.orf.at/index_documentaries.htm , Austrian Independent Film Data Base: http://www.filmvideo.at/filmdb_persons.php?persid=3956 , Bayrischer Rundfunk (BR) http://www.br-online.de/download/pdf/alpha/programmwochen/woche40-h.pdf , official page of Ingeborg Bachmann (german) http://www.ingeborg-bachmann.cc/links_kuenstler.html , distribution company sixpack-films (verleih) http://www.sixpackfilm.com/catalogue.php?oid=1625&lang=de , Museum of Applied Art in Vienna http://lists.t0.or.at/wwsympa.fcgi/arc/announce-list/2003-10/msg00001.html , plenty of printed news about his work, for example just one from the archive of daily newspaper WAZ-Mediengruppe Germany as referenced by the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Schukoff#cite_note-WAZ-7 . another one from the Standard Der_Standard from 2007 http://derstandard.at/3031695 Many of that refs are in the article - and much more of them are necessary to fulfil the requirements of the criteria for the IMDB, so that the records in the IMDB are enough and accepted as notable. The identity one of the authors is obviously not hidden, more transparent than in many other biographies of living people, honest. The article meets the requirements of an encyclopedic listing of facts and works for the public. If there is one fact too personal, record in a cat or list false than delete or correct it and tell us your arguments, but remove the AfDM. Nadeschda alexandrowna (talk) 12:15, 25 January 2010 (UTC) — Nadeschda alexandrowna (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

I might quote Wikipedia:Autobiography here: Many people exaggerate their own significance or notability above what third parties would think. That applies to you, as Schukoff's wife. --bender235 (talk) 13:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Please see this note (6), WP generally does not accept IMDB as a reliable source, especially when determining notability. Wine Guy Talk 18:23, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

keep . IMDB sources are currently not the only ones in the article, but helpful for English.

notability: yes.

Comment but if it is considered to relative the reliability of IMDB sources that would lead to many deletions of members of the filmbusiness. And second establish a principle debate. At the back of this AfD?

Wasiliy (talk) 23:57, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Scott Mac (Doc) 22:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Whilst ther seems to be a dearth of English language sources that does not inn and of its self render Mr Schukoff un-notable. What we need is some one who can read German to check the sources (ther edo appear to0 be more then just IMBD).Slatersteven (talk) 22:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

keep . the german wikis result of this article's AfD was a speedy keep (german: LAE) (nominated simultanously with english wiki)

principle debate question: The IMDB is the central data base for the filmbusiness worldwide. Like national-libraries for print publications, IMDB is an official register for movies that without exception have to be either aired to the public by national tv-channels , or were shown in the movies by listed film-distributors or screened at notable filmfestifals. At least - if standing not alone, added with (not always english) secondary sources those should reach notability status. just look at many wiki articles about for example french, italian or russian filmmakers...

Filmbuster (talk) 11:49, 31 January 2010 (UTC) — Filmbuster (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

And again, Wikipedia:Autobiography: Many people exaggerate their own significance or notability above what third parties would think. That applies to you, Mr. Schukoff. --bender235 (talk) 13:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

and, in my experience here, some people underestimate it. They;re about as poor judges of the matter as can be imagined. DGG ( talk ) 22:09, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

keep. The article was extensively revised and is now equipped with additional sources. He is neutral written and now contains a variety of reputable sources (not just the IMDb or Schukoff's website). Schukoff has directed and produced films that were broadcast on ORF, 3sat and BR-alpha. That makes him my opinion, clearly relevant. --Jocian (talk) 21:31, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: While I appreciate the fact that more sources have been added, and agree that he has directed/produced films/videos/shows/etc. which have been broadcast, that does not make him notable. On the English Wikipedia, the applicable notability guideline for filmmakers is WP:CREATIVE, specifically:

2. The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
3. The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
4. The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.

I still see nothing in reliable sources which would establish Schukoff's notability per this guideline. Regarding the AfD on de.wikipedia, it is not relevant here; each WP has its own guidelines for notability and sources. The keep result there was justified as: "Schukoff has shot and produced films that were broadcast on ORF and 3sat. That's enough." It's not enough here. Wine Guy Talk 00:19, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.