The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 00:08, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

CS2D[edit]

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CS2D (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Someone cut-and-pasted page CS2D to Counter-Strike 2D, where it then had many edits. I just now histmerged to repair this cut-and-paste. Thus, this AfD now refers to page Counter-Strike 2D. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Non-notable video game developed by non-notable company. Prod contested by IP that, by the way, full on admits that s/he works for the company. Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete not notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meritstarzzz (talk • contribs) 15:11, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep >>> A lot of people play CS2D. (being a free clone of CS 1.6)<<<< —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.26.135.120 (talk) 20:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC) — 188.26.135.120 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

1. "Non-notable video game developed by non-notable company" is not a justification for non-notability as the premise is in itself the inherent resolution of the contention. Clarification of why video game is non-notable is requested.
2. Non-notable company does not impact notability of the game.
3. Proposal cites affiliation of the editor with the company as cause for non-notability as described in Wikipedia:SIGCOV
   

"Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject including (but not limited to): self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, press releases, etc.

However, the author of the game have listed the group/organization under the "Alternative Community" category via [1], implying that this group have absolutely no affiliation with the author nor the game. Hence the material published does not violate the sigcov guidelines. Phailed.Me (talk)— Phailed.Me (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. (G·N·B·S·RS·Talk) Ost (talk) 18:01, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. I vote to keep. --- 78.29.146.0 (talk) 20:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)— 78.29.146.0 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

• Comment: Some of the claims in the nomination are irrelevant to this afd: "developed by non-notable company" - doesn't matter: wp:INHERIT says "not every manufacturer of a notable product is itself notable", but even if it did Unreal is most definitely notable. Also, wp:COI is not a reason to delete. With that said, I think notability is not established in the article; please focus your arguments here in this debate on that question. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:19, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. The idea that a lot of people play it is irrelevant. I could make a computer game right now (I'm studying to be a computer programmer, btw) and all my friends could come over and play it, but it wouldn't be notable if it didn't exist outside of my personal computer. Also, Phailed.Me, I think you're a little confused as to what significant coverage entails. Not having a conflict of interest (even though there is) doesn't equal significant coverage (and that's the first time I have ever seen that connection). Plus, the link you mentioned lists to the company's own website, which doesn't help your case (see WP:PRIMARY). And although it's true that a non-notable company does not equal non-notability of the game, I couldn't find reliable sources about the game on Google. (And message to the 78 IP: this isn't a vote.) Erpert (let's talk about it) 21:48, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Erpert, your sole warrant for the deletion proposal rests upon WP:COI, I contended that your justification for non-notability is not based on faulty evidence and provided a first hand source to the author of the game who explicitly categorizes the organization in question as an unaffiliated third party. Since the actual author of the game isn't the one who is making the edits, I don't see how his statement is irrelevant or harms the position contesting the deletion proposal. I agree that sigcov is not fully fulfilled, however if we strictly uphold the notability guidelines, then no articles will ever come to fruition. I advise giving it a bit more time. Phailed.Me (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC). — Phailed.Me (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • If COI is all you think my nomination is based on, you clearly did not read it thoroughly. Erpert (let's talk about it) 06:59, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it the non-notable game by non-notable company part? I refuted the non-notable company component and contended that asserting that something is non-notable via the premise that it's non-notable is a fallacious argument and asked you to expand upon that by actual warrants of why the game is non-notable. You then gave a subjective rationalization of why the game is non-notable by making an analogy of how newly developed softwares are not notable outside of the developer's own locality. That's quite alright. But seeing as the people making edits to this page are unaffiliated with the developer, I don't see how your analogy applies as the act in itself merits the game notability. Furthermore, there are no set threshold for notability nor a standard for credibility that degenerates into this abstract notion of notability that wikipedia is apparently found upon. If I can show you sources for the number of players and an estimation of total number of players in a ball park range nearing hundreds of thousands, will you still not refute that these evidence are faulty as 1.) they are either compiled by the developer himself or 2.) they are compiled by a third party that is sympathetic to the game and hence there can be no credibility in these research as they are very much open to the manipulation of the sympathetic party? If, say, an editor for the Cornell Daily Sun writes an article parodying the video game tomorrow, would that be considered credible or would the credibility suddenly diminish because the intent of the editor is known, even when the content of the article is unchanged? Furthermore, the wikipedia standards are themselves governed by a community sympathetic to, well, these standards. Hence by your line of rationalization and by the above meta-observation, wouldn't you conclude that the wikipedia standards themselves are non-notable as all sources citing the standards are either from the wikipedia foundation themselves or through sympathetic parties? Phailed.Me (talk) 16:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "asked you to expand upon that by actual warrants of why the game is non-notable." Phailed.Me, it is much easier to demonstrate notability than to demonstrate non-notability. Usually, when asserting non-notability, people just say "I can't find significant coverage in secondary sources." It is very easy to demonstrate notability when it exists, though - cite independent references that significantly cover the subject. Are there any? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Fails WP:GNG, plain and simple. Best of luck to the game, but it just doesn't have the coverage from reliable sources. --Teancum (talk) 02:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Would citing the game's inclusion into Europe's largest professional gaming league cover notability? From what I've seen, many other indie games have few if any references. Phailed.Me (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Maybe not. Please see the general notability guidelines to see what is required for inclusion as a stand-alone article. "many other indie games have few if any references" - then they probably shouldn't have articles either? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep It should stay! With more work we can edit so it respects those shitty policies! --- 85.240.22.20 (talk) 16:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC) — 85.240.22.20 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • It's important to understand that this discussion is not really about the article as it stands right now. The "conflict of interest" stuff above is just a distraction; really what matters here is whether this game is notable. That's the only "shitty policy" we need to worry about here, and no amount of work on the article is going to change it. Really all you probably need to do is paste in a couple links to articles or something covering the game, see: wp:N. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note to closing admin - Off-site canvassing here [2]. Fairly neutral in conversation on the site thus far, but accounts for Keeps not supplying rationale based in Wikipedia policies. --Teancum (talk) 18:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Resuming, we need to add sources? Well, working on that. --- D-Shadow (talk) 18:39, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks! But remember, as far as this discussion is concerned, we need more independent sources. Adding links to unrealsoftware.de isn't going to help establish notability. I can link to erikhaugen.com all day long but Erik Haugen remains red. Thanks, ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - trawled the interwebs, best coverage I could find was atomicgamer. Marasmusine (talk) 13:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Can't find significant coverage. ThemFromSpace 13:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.