The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Nomination withdrawn. Consensus is to keep. Sources added. Article has been improved.diff PeaceNT 08:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Charles George Arbuthnot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

NN Army Officer. Part of the Arbuthnot walled garden. EliminatorJR ^Talk 02:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Not a walled garden. Not the first British Arbuthnot to be nominated for afd, none of which have been deleted. Notable for the number of men under his command. In the DNB. Nevertheless expansion would be good. These afds don't allow much time for improvements to be made! - Kittybrewster (talk) 02:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The article's been there for 18 months. I realise a lot of the Arbuthnot clan are notable, but there are limits. EliminatorJR ^Talk 02:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The guy died in 1899, has had 108 years for his notability to be established, and has failed so far. Wikipedia is not a genealogy site--go see the Mormon websites for that. Neither is an encyclopedia a repository site for biographies of every military officer, no matter how minor, who ever existed. Qworty 02:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy delete, seems to be of some importance, but is a copyright violation of [1]. KJS77 02:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Um, that's a Wikipedia mirror, which copies information direct from the article that's up for deletion. No copyvio there I'm afraid. EliminatorJR ^Talk 02:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy delete a person of some importance? - Kittybrewster (talk) 03:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletions. -- Carom 03:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Wrakest of all possible keepsMild Keep; appears in Oxford DNB. But really, the commander, not of the Indian army, but of the Madras presidency - in peace time! ODNB says commanded end of the Third Burmese War, in succession to Bobs. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Just a random army officer. Mangoe 04:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: At the moment this page just seems to be a vehicle for linking to other Arbuthnots of equally dubious notability. However as the subject qualifies for listing here Category:Knights Commander of the Order of the Bath (and I expect that list also includes a few of equally dubious notability too) there must be more to say. I strongly suggest Kittybrewster takes most of his pages into user space, to protect his work. Then perhaps the main space could be deleted - to protect Wikipedia's reputation and standards - and allow Kittybrewster and a team of volunteers (any offers?) to bring the possibly notable up to standard without risk of being nominated here. To me, this seems a fair solution to what is becoming large wikipedia problem. Giano 07:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, but please add the information that makes him (and other relatives) notable, rather than creating even more of these stubby articles. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Look - I have even tidied it up for you. But there must be more to say about his service in the Crimea and afterwards, particularly if, as is mentioned above, he was in command for the final stages of the Third Burmese War. Correspondence with Earl Roberts is held at the National Archive.[2] -- ALoan (Talk) 15:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep A Lt General - CinC of the Madras army and Knighted is not 'a random army officer'. Yes, this needs cleaned up, but no reason to delete it. -Doc^g 13:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak delete Presently lacks multiple reliable and independent references, since Mrs Arbuthnot's "Memories of the Arbuthnots" clearly does not qualify. Perhaps additional independent and reliable references could be found by the end of the deletion debate. It has been on Wikipedia long enough that one would think those who like articles about their relatives would have found and added such refs. Edison 13:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep- notable army officer in the British Army. Astrotrain 15:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - I know people want to shut down kittybrewster's project, but can they please not over-reach themselves? The head of a Presidency army is perfectly notable. Hornplease 16:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- Hornplease 16:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment: I think this is interesting Kittybrewster uses as a ref: Mrs P S-M Arbuthnot "Memories of the Arbuthnots" (1920). George Allen & Unwin Ltd.

Yet the same publishers in the same year published "Memories of the Arbuthnots of Kincardineshire and Aberdeenshire" by Ada Jane Evelyn Arbuthnot [3]

Odd that two Arbuthnot wives should simultaneously publish works so similar - very odd! There is the possible explanation that Kittybrewster forgot to add the last part of the title - but would those qualifying Scottish counties include the Irish branch? Then the name Ada Jane could have been Mrs Peter Arbuthnot - but why change the author;s name. Too many questions? Giano 16:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Download it and find out [4]?--Doc^g 16:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I could but I am immediatly concerned because Kittybrewster himself appears as "copyright is owned by Sir William Arbuthnot, Bt" quite how he owns copyright of a book published 87 years ago by someone else is something of a mystery. I would be interested to see an exact copy Giano 16:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The facsimile is probably copyright - the book sure as hell is not.--Doc^g 17:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep Unquestionable notable, with a full signed entry in the DNB. I added the exact reference, the refs listed in the DNB article, and a quote or two from it. If only the author had kept to subjects like him... DGG 23:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Can you give a fuller citation though. Simple listing the Dictionary as an article doesn't do much. Author? Page/article? Publication date?--Doc^g 23:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reference and link was where it belongs, in the article--here it is again "E. M. Lloyd, ‘Arbuthnot, Sir Charles George (1824–1899)’, revised. by James Falkner, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (article 608). Oxford University Press, 2004 accessed 11 May 2007 subscription access". DGG 23:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, notable. KCB's are not given out every day. John Vandenberg 23:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• CommentKitty uncharacteristically missed something. Not only was he KCB, but he was Knight Grand Cross of the Bath (GCB), the highest level. Kitty missed something else--the links went to the ranks in the OBE. a considerably less distinctive honor. I've fixed them. DGG 23:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I am pleased to see the improvements to this page being made. It is a pity that the only way these Arbuthnot pages can be brought up to an acceptable standard is by nominating them here. If their primary author and his friends could initially do some basic research so much unpleasantness could be avoided. I suggest those keen to see this page retained now rapidly turn their attention to the other many pages concerned with this family, before they are moved to "Genes reunited" which, at present, is the correct place for many of them. In the meantime a good place for the Arbuthnot retainers to begin is here Kenneth Arbuthnot where Kitty's grandfather is in some distress. Giano 10:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Article has been much improved - it's a shame all those references and sources weren't there to begin with. I withdraw the nom. Now, is it possible to save Charles George James? EliminatorJR ^Talk 11:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep This guy is a GCB and a Lt. general, born in 1824. Frankly, anyone who was born before about 1900 and who is verifiably distinguished in any way is "notable" because their activities resonate down through the years to the present.-Arch dude 00:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Even stronger keep This guy has an article in the Dictionary of National Biography. Since Wikipedia strives to have an article for every subject in every other "encyclopeidic" work, we must have an aricle for this guy, even if he is a complete bozo, which clearly is not. -Arch dude 02:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, a notable army officer. I'm quite baffled as to why this would be nominated. Leithp 18:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Article has been majorly improved since AfD. EliminatorJR ^Talk 19:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.