The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This seems to be a borderline case, so when in doubt... Has since been moved to Foxhole (band), so I'm adapting the AfD headers. Sandstein 06:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Foxhole (band)[edit]

Although the article is relatively long, there's nothing there to justify inclusion. Their album "releases" are small (500 or 1000 copies...), I can find no mention of their concerts from a reliable source, the links provided are either self-publications on myspace/youtube or reviews from non-notable people, google gives no independent coverage of the band, and the article was a spa's first edit. yandman 14:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like the issue here is not the band's legitimacy, but that the links and sources aren't ones that some would consider "notable". I have added a link to a brief review of the band's Cornerstone Festival performance. Cornerstone is an annual festival which had an attendance of over 10,000 last year. Foxhole was featured on Mono Vs. Stereo Records' national release "The Revolution Will Begin In The Blink Of An Eye". http://www.monovsstereo.com/releases.asp Also noteworthy is that that several of the Foxhole's "sister" bands have Wikipedia pages, including Anathallo and Saxon Shore. These bands have shared members, stages, and labels. They also cater to a similar audience. This seems to set a precedent. In February 2005, We the Wintering Tree made CMJ's Top 20, and subsequently the album has been in regular rotation on college radio. A quick google search of the album title will demonstrate this. Post-rock, as a genre, is characteristically "non-notable". Aside from Slint, very few bands listed in the Post-rock groups category are, by most standards of music, of little national, international, and certainly historical repute. Pressings are typically small, but they nevertheless make an impact. The same can be said of Foxhole. This is evidenced, I think, by the range and scope of praise in the reviews listed, which stretch to international lengths. Futureproofaudiolab 16:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Futureproofaudiolab[reply]

SEE WP:BAND. yandman 16:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If nothing else, the band has been covered consistently in a publication (Buzzgrinder Electronic Magazine) that is dedicated to the indie rock subculture. The band's record label, Burnt Toast Vinyl, features releases from many other notable artists, including Sufjan Stevens, whose recent release Illinois has sold over 200,000 copies.Futureproofaudiolab 18:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Futureproofaudiolab[reply]

PROS: On label (Burnt Toast Vinyl, of Philadelphia) with major players. Performed at many major festivals. Opened for many major acts (Unwed Sailor, Denison Witmer, Danielson Famile, Saxon Shore). Charted on CMJ Top 100 for a period in 2005. Listed on many "best of" lists, esp. those concerned with instrumental or avant-grade music. Song featured on Etnies (major skate shoe company) 2006 Tour DVD, of which there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of copies. One member of band, Gregory Belt Leppert, is very lauded graphic designer, having designed many award-winning and huge-selling album covers (Relient K's "Mmhmm," for example) as well as numerous other artworks in various markets.

CONS: Albums not platinum--but who was "Britney Spears" before some label auditioned her and marketed her and sold millions of copies? She had less to her name than Foxhole. No mention of concerts from reliable source--but Foxhole is a recording-focused band, though they've played over 100 concerts. Silver Jews played NO concerts for many many years. Should they be deleted?Kaffehaus 19:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Kaffehaus[reply]

PER THE GUIDELINES FOR ARTICLE VALIDATION REGARDING BANDS
Foxhole meets the following criteria:

2.) Foxhole HAS CHARTED on Top 100 of CMJ's new adds, quite a few times in 2005, actually. Email the guys at Nice Promo for more details on that.

5.) Foxhole is on a noteworthy indie label, with a roster of significant artists (have included Denison Witmer, Saxon Shore, Unwed Sailor, and others).

7.) Foxhole is has helped forge the sound of the Louisville/Nashville post-rock scene over the past five years; hear Of Asaph, Commonwealth, Telavet, The Ascent of Everest, and others for proof.

10.) Foxhole has appeared on a "soundtrack," of sorts, for the widely-distributed DVD from Etnies shoe company in 2006.

Kaffehaus 19:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Kaffehaus[reply]

Foxhole was featured in the print magazine "Law of Inertia" (Amazon subscription link [1]) as one of Paul Hinojos' Top 10 records of 2004. Paul Hinojos is formerly a guitarist for Sparta Sparta_(band) (ex members of At the Drive-In) and most recently a guitarist for The Mars Volta Mars_Volta. See album number 6 on the ~~included~~ linked image showing a clipping from the magazine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Futureproofaudiolab (talk • contribs)

(edit conflict) ~~Delete~~ - RE ~~the above user's~~ Kaffehaus's justifications:

2. I'm not sure what CMJ is, but unless it is a "national music chart" (along the lines of Billboard) it doesn't satisfy this crit.

~~5. The crit specifies that the band must have "released two or more albums on a major label". As far as I can tell, this hasn't happened.~~

7. Unverified claim. Cite some sources and we can decide for ourselves.

10. Could find no record of the dvd or soundtrack.

If you can provide sources showing how the band meets the criteria, it will be a different story. Unless that happens, the article needs to be removed until Foxhole meets notability criteria. →Bobby← 21:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum - RE Futureproofaudiolab's reasoning:

1. This crit requires "multiple non trivial published works".

2. As with the CMJ case, I'm not sure if Paul Hinojo's Top 10 qualifies as a "national music chart".

3. I'm not quite sure how Hinojo's notability would affect the band in question.

Allow me to quickly say that I really admire the dedication of the two folks trying to save the article. However, it might be better to concentrate on other issues right now, and work on the Foxhole article when the band achieves notability. →Bobby← 21:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Per above: For starters, Foxhole has released one album on BTV, a second ("We the Wintering Tree") is soon to be reissued on the same label, and a third is in production as we speak. Email btv@burnttoastvinyl.com for verification.Kaffehaus 22:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)kaffehaus[reply]

Also: CMJ is College Music Journal, a significant chart that is held in high regard by the entire music industry. See http://www.cmj.com for more on that... No online record of the charting exists but I am in contact with CMJ to get that "proof" for you sticklers.Kaffehaus 22:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)kaffehaus[reply]

Reply - Based on the wording in the article, it appears as if Foxhole joined the label after their last album was released. This should be clarified. As to CMJ, as I understand it, the journal pubulishes charts sent in from local radio stations that pay membership fees. I'm still not sure these charts qualify under the critrion. Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to be a jerk; I actually tend to lean towards inclusion. However, I also want to make sure that WP does not turn into a directory of every garage band on earth. It looks like Foxhole is quite a bit more than a garage band, but I'd still like to see the sources in the article. In the end, a well cited article is a better article which is something we all can appreciate. If you can get some sources, I'd be more than willing to help with wikifying the article. →Bobby← 22:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

THE DISCUSSION ENDER? Here is "source material" to vouch for the "two albums on a significant record label" rule: https://www.burnttoastvinyl.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/btv/store/commerce.cgi .

Kaffehaus 22:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Kaffehaus[reply]

Changing Position to Keep. Works for me. Some might take issue with calling BTV a major label, but given the fact that they have records for Denison Witmer, Saxon Shore and Unwed Sailor I'm satisfied that crit 5 is satisfied. Now we just need to clean up the article! →Bobby← 22:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Weakest of all possible keeps - Burnt Vinyl is hardly a major label (some would even say that it has yet to make "significant"); while CMJ is a significant trade magazine catering to the college radio crowd (I know - I was in the business for eleven years), I must point out that the "importance" of a CMJ chart is questionable at best considering that recordings can make it without official release. One particularly emphatic college program director can skew the results). The definitive standard in the United States is Billboard, with Cashbox almost alongside it until Cashbox went under about a decade ago. That said, if the individuals put the same amount of effort into the article as they did here, we wouldn't have this conversation in the first place. Don't put your sources and notability here - put it in the article and leave no doubt that an encyclopedic article about Foxhole belongs here - right now, the article doesn't show that. B.Wind 23:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If every bit of aforemention information (some of which, admittably, is not notable) were cited in the article as grounds for inclusion, then I'm afraid that Wikipedia wouldn't be the better for it. Indeed, it would appear as if the article were trying to over-argue for its importance, esp. when most of the post-rock already listed on Wikipedia include very little pertinent information, be it regarding charts, interviews, write-ups, soundtracks, etc. Hence, in the interest of keeping Wikipedia from hosting more questionable information, I'm ready and willing to have the article taken down. It may be only a few months before the criteria is met, but until then, as previously mentioned, there are more important things to worry about. All the same, if other post-rock groups' present listings on Wikipedia are any indication as to what makes for a suitable article, then it's very difficult to see what distinguishes such articles from the current foxhole listing. Crepelife 3.17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- The problem is the the bulk of the articles on relatively new musical acts do not meet the requirements for inclusion in Wikipedia. That's why it seems to have about eight AfD's for music articles each day. Please don't mistake the true purpose of the AfD: to weed out the articles that don't belong here and to enhance those that should be here but do not quite make standard. The good fight is being fought here, but the suggestions need to be incorporated into the article for it to stand on its own. Sometimes just presenting the complete picture instead of overselling will be enough to get the acceptance of the article started. But please don't take it personally, either: sooner or later, virtually every editor has his/her creation go through the process (I had three deleted in one day, unfortunately). That's part of the territory... but don't give up. B.Wind 06:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If this is kept, move it to Foxhole (band) and redirect Foxhole to Defensive fighting position. If not, simply redirect. Sean Curtin 01:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. On balance I don't find adequate notability or enough independent referencing yet. WMMartin 17:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.