The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. Three deletes, including the nominator, one keep (Monicasdude), and some anon votes which are discounted, makes 75% delete. Stifle (talk) 00:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jon Crowley[edit]

This was prod-ed, but the prod was removed without comment. Mr. Crowley has an IMDB page [1], but I'm not sure that his credits are notable enough to merit inclusion, so I'm listing it here. Be careful about taking claims in the article at face-value; I couldn't find any credited connection to "Cops", for instance. -Colin Kimbrell 14:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Jeez, a lot to respond to there. The events and shows are notable, but not all the people connected with them necessarily are. To put it a different way, Yankee Stadium is notable, but the construction worker who installed the seats may or may not be. Most of Mr. Crowley's credits on IMDB are as a "Supervising Producer", which is kind of the middle management of TV work: not writing full time, and not creating shows, but more the logistical odds-and-ends that need to be done to get the show on the air. It's important work, and probably interesting work, but not in my mind encyclopedic, which is why I posted this here. His credit for "Big Brother" was as a "story editor", which is a position of similarly ambiguous importance, and I stand by my skepticism of his role in "Cops" or "Trading Spouses" (as well as the award shows), since the article doesn't describe his role or cite sources and there are zero google hits connecting him to those in any way, shape, or form. For all we know, he could've been Assistant Monkey Wrangler #4, or the intern they sent out for coffee and bagels. I agree that his writing work for the History Channel is the most noteworthy aspect of his career, but it's still something of a slender reed. Air Force Amy isn't really relevant to the discussion for two reasons: Her notability is grounded in widespread media coverage, which Mr. Crowley doesn't appear to have received, and furthermore, the "cruft justifies more cruft" argument generally doesn't generate much traction here, as it's much more easily turned around to use as an argument to delete both entries. I'm also confused as to your remark about me having a page at Wikipedia, since there's no entry for Colin Kimbrell (nor should there be, at this point). I have a user page, as does every other editor of the site, but that's not really connected to the encyclopedia itself. If Mr. Crowley wants to start editing here, and then adds a few details about his personal and professional life to his user page, more power to him; we've got a lot of work that still needs to be done on our coverage of TV shows. -Colin Kimbrell 20:07, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add a comment or two about Mr. Crowley's credentials. It's very misleading to insinuate that he was "Assistant Monkey Wrangler #4" on any production, because he is an experienced veteran professional who commands great respect and admiration from his peers. He has indeed been a showrunner and writer for a number of series, and over the past decade has been a producer for many top shows, from Big Brother to World's Most Amazing Videos to NBC's Headliners and Legends. He is so well-known in the television community that he is featured in the FinalDraft script software's "Why I Write" advertising campaign. Most recently, he has made an impact in the Los Angeles media scene with his "Hollywood Thoughts" website, which breaks news about Los Angeles cultural shifts, while adding insight about its history-- from the recent closing of Schwab's, to coverage of the student immigration protests, and over the weekend, a tribute to a newsstand vendor that was picked up by the LA Daily News and has led to a groundswell for a memorial statue (the site laobserved.com links to him regularly). Perhaps Mr. Crowley can post his extensive CV to give a better idea. Strong recommendation to stay.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.22.64.229 (talk • contribs)

The things that you're saying about his credits are interesting and useful, but we need verifiable sources to confirm them if they're going to be in the encyclopedia. Right now, we don't have those, and in absence of proof, it's not trustworthy. That's the point I was trying to make with the "Assistant Monkey Wrangler" remark: Information that's unsourced and unsourcable is pretty much worthless. You seem to have a good knowledge base about Mr. Crowley's career; if you have references that meet the guidelines for this stuff (listed at WP:CITE and WP:OR), please add them to the article, as that's the best thing you can do to swing public opinion your way in a deletion discussion. -Colin Kimbrell 23:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

STRONG KEEP: See JON M.CROWLEY at IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0189752/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnx0dD0xfGZiPXV8cG49MHxrdz0xfHE9am9uIGNyb3dsZXl8ZnQ9MXxteD0yMHxsbT01MDB8Y289MXxodG1sPTF8bm09MQ__;fc=1;ft=20;fm=1 See: http://www.scriptwritersshowcase.com/speakers.html Jon is one of the speakers featured as INDUSTRY LEADERS at the Scriptwiriters showcase this weekend in Universal City.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.22.64.229 (talk • contribs)

Reardless of how many times you voice your opinion, it will only be counted once. If you have subsequent comments after voicing your opinion, you should use either no header, or a neutral one such as Comment, instead of filling the thread with Keeps or Deletes. The IMDB biography you cite was already mentioned in the nomination, and the link to the workshop isn't very illustrative, since it's just his name on a big list of speakers. -Colin Kimbrell 18:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you talking about lacrosse? Do you mean the town, or the college, or the sport? I'm confused... -Colin Kimbrell 21:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As for some of the other stuff, that's all great if it's true, but none of it is sourced, and most of it isn't even in the article. To re-iterate an earlier point: If you want this article to be kept, the best thing you can do is find a mention of Mr. Crowley's work in a book or a newspaper or a magazine and add it to the article as a citation. It doesn't have to be online; just add it like you would've added a book citation for a term paper back in college. -Colin Kimbrell 22:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Since you note that you worked for Mr. Crowley, I should probably also call your attention to WP:AUTO, which states, "You should wait for others to write an article about subjects in which you are personally involved. This applies to articles about you, your achievements, your business, your publications, your website, your relatives, and any other possible conflict of interest." In that spirit, if you do decide to improve the article, please try to keep your work in line with WP:NPOV.-Colin Kimbrell 22:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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