The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Snow/Speedy keep. Not WP:OR - sourced with many reliable references. Jews are both a religion, an ethnicity, and a nation/people, Judaism is not only a religious affiliation, but also a people with common ethnic/national characteristics. The relationship of Jews and sports has been a subject of considerable scholarly and popular attention over the years, so the WP:OR claim is invalid, and verifiability issues in the article should be addressed in the talkpage, not in an AfD. (non-admin closure) Maashatra11 (talk) 10:59, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jews in sports[edit]

List of Jews in sports (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Inclusion criteria are unclear, arbitrary and WP:OR. What is a major international tournaments, how many is several season , What is a major national league. Owners of world records current owners only or past owners? Gnevin (talk) 08:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jews in sports (2nd nomination) This is a case of overcategorisation in list form. Why is it relevant that these sportspeople are Jewish? We do't have lists of Christian or Muslim sportspeople, and nor should we Gnevin (talk) 08:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. There may be a case for an article on Jews in sports, as demonstrated by the attention this topic generates, documented here, but that does not provide a rationale for a list of this type. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Surely there's a reference to Airplane! in here somewhere, I know it.  ;-) JBsupreme (talk) ✄ ✄ ✄ 16:37, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Looks like you picked a bad week to quit AfD. Lugnuts (talk) 17:11, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Inclusion is clear (IE any notable Jewish sportsperson - read for notable, has a WP article). Sourced list, no different to List of Jewish American sportspeople. Lugnuts (talk) 18:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify Lugnuts' point -- nom also nominated the parallel cat Lug points to for deletion, on the same basis. It was kept yesterday as a Snow Keep -- see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American sportspeople.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:29, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per WP:NOTDIR as non-encyclopedic cross-categorization (religion unrelated to occupation, it's practically the example given in the guideline, and as other have pointed out, there's no list of Christian in sports, Muslims in sports, Zoroastrian in sports, etc), and WP:SALAT: inclusion criterion not clear. I thought it meant athletes, but it turns out it's anything related to sports. Article also has WP:LAY, WP:EL major issues.--137.122.49.102 (talk) 23:01, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. As stated in the previous AfD and as now demonstrated in extreme detail in the current version of the list, the relationship of Jews and sports has been a subject of considerable scholarly and popular attention over the years. The prologue to the list now includes a footnote with a selected list of books on the topic, and the 235 footnotes also demonstrate this. The Airplane! joke referenced above is in fact an old stereotype, which Jewish studies scholars have taken pains to confront.[1] There is nothing "non-encyclopedic" about this categorization given the existence of an encyclopedia (and many other books) on exactly this topic.[2]--Arxiloxos (talk) 00:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment if you want to delete this article per the rationale you gave, please consider nominating List of Turkish Sportspeople too. Judaism/Jews are quite different from other religions in the sense that those terms have an aspect of nationality and ethnicity, so that the word "Jewish" may be accounted in the same way as "Turkish", though not in the same way as "Christian" or "Buddhist". Maashatra11 (talk) 00:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep we have List of Turkish Sportspeople, so the reason for deletion given here should be a valid reason to delete that article as well. Anyway, there's reliable sources and I see no reason why to delete this interesting and well-formatted article. Maashatra11 (talk) 00:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - ah, the good old WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS all the Turkish sportspeople listed are or were athletes (a couple later became coach or sports journalist). The article under AfD includes owners, sportcasters (such as Chris Berman whose father is stated to be supposedly Jewish, though there's no source for this claim in this article or any mention in the Chris Berman one), promoters and, presumably could include Jewish hot dog vendors at sports venues as well. Clear inclusion criterion you say...--70.80.234.196 (talk) 01:40, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is all too often referred to by editors and IPs who seem not to have read anything other than its title. It states, in pertinent part (emphasis added): "Sometimes these comparisons are ... valid.... When used correctly ... these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes. The problem arises when legitimate comparisons are disregarded without thought because "other stuff existing is not a reason to keep.... The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on what other articles do or do not exist... While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument; an entire comment should not be dismissed because it includes a comparative statement like this."--Epeefleche (talk) 04:29, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep; Snow/Speedy keep. I encourage nom to withdraw his nomination here, as he has just done in his nominations of 21 other Jewish-related cats (there may be more -- that's just what I noticed within the past 48 hours). As he now understands (and I can provide more information if necessary), the Jews are both a religion, an ethnicity, and a nation/people. If he fails to do so, I urge that this be snow kept, as was his concurrent nomination of the deletion of a similar category at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American sportspeople.

In addition, his "reasons" are not reasons for deletion of the list; rather, if he wishes he is free to raise them on the list talk page as ways in which he believes the list might be improved. Furthermore, the notability of this intersection--as measured by Wikipedia standards--is reflected in the below books all of which focus on all or some of the elements of the list that nom is suggesting be deleted; if he reads one every other day, it might tide him over for the summer:

1. Jews and Baseball: The Post-Greenberg Years, 1949-2008, Burton Alan Boxerman, Benita W. Boxerman, McFarland, 2010, ISBN 0786428287
2. The Baseball Talmud: The Definitive Position-by-Position Ranking of Baseball's Chosen Players, Howard Megdal, Collins, 2009, ISBN 0061558435
3. Jews and the Sporting Life, Vol. 23 of Studies in Contemporary Jewry, Ezra Mendelsohn, Oxford University Press US, 2009, ISBN 0195382919
4. Day by Day in Jewish Sports History, Bob Wechsler, KTAV Publishing House, 2008, ISBN 1602800138
5. The Big Book of Jewish Athletes: Two Centuries of Jews in Sports - a Visual History, Peter S. Horvitz, Joachim Horvitz, S P I Books, 2007, ISBN 1561719277
6. The Big Book of Jewish Sports Heros: An Illustrated Compendium of Sports History and The 150 Greatest Jewish Sports Stars, Peter S. Horvitz, SP Books, 2007, ISBN 1561719072
7. Jews, Sports, and the Rites of Citizenship, Jack Kugelmass, University of Illinois Press, 2007, ISBN 025207324X
8. The New Big Book of Jewish Baseball: An Illustrated Encyclopedia & Anecdotal History, Peter S. Horvitz, Joachim Horvitz, Perseus Distribution Services, 2007, ISBN 1561718211
9. Emancipation through Muscles: Jews and Sports in Europe, Michael Brenner, Gideon Reuveni, translated by Brenner, Reuveni, U of Nebraska Press, 2006, ISBN 0803213557
10. Jewish Sports Stars: Athletic Heroes Past and Present, David J. Goldman, Edition 2, Kar-Ben Publishing, 2006, ISBN 1580131832
11. Judaism's Encounter with American Sports, Jeffrey S. Gurock, Indiana University Press, 2005, ISBN 0253347009
12. Jews and the Olympic Games; Sport: Springboard for Minorities, Paul Yogi Mayer, Vallentine Mitchell, 2004, ISBN 0853034516
13. Great Jews in Sports, Robert Slater, Jonathan David Publishers, 2004, ISBN 0824604539
14. Jews and the Olympic Games: The Clash between Sport and Politics: with a complete review of Jewish Olympic medallists, Paul Taylor, Sussex Academic Press, 2004, ISBN 1903900883
15. The 100 Greatest Jews in Sports: Ranked According to Achievement, B. P. Robert Stephen Silverman, Scarecrow Press, 2003, ISBN 0810847752
16. Foiled, Hitler's Jewish Olympian: the Helene Mayer Story, Milly Mogulof, RDR Books, 2002, ISBN 157143092X
17. The Big Book of Jewish Baseball: An Illustrated Encyclopedia & Anecdotal History, Peter S. Horvitz, Joachim Horvitz, SP Books, 2001, ISBN 1561719730
18. Jewish Sports Legends: the International Jewish Hall of Fame, 3rd Ed, Joseph Siegman, Brassey's, 2000, ISBN 1574882848
19. Sports and the American Jew, Steven A. Riess, Syracuse University Press, 1998, ISBN 0815627548
20. When Boxing was a Jewish Sport, Allen Bodner, Praeger, 1997, ISBN 027595353X
21. Ellis Island to Ebbets Field: Sport and the American Jewish Experience, Peter Levine, Oxford University Press US, 1993, ISBN 0195085558
22. The Jewish Child's Book of Sports Heroes, Robert Slater, Jonathan David Publishers, 1993, ISBN 0824603605
23. The International Jewish Sports Hall of Fame, Joseph M. Siegman, SP Books, 1992, ISBN 1561710288
24. The Jewish Athletes Hall of Fame, B. P. Robert Stephen Silverman, Shapolsky Publishers, 1989, ISBN 094400704X
25. The Jewish Boxers Hall of Fame, Ken Blady, SP Books, 1988, ISBN 0933503873
26. The Great Jewish Chess Champions, Harold U. Ribalow, Meir Z. Ribalow, Hippocrene Books, 1987, ISBN 0870523058
27. The Jewish Baseball Hall of Fame: a Who's Who of Baseball Stars, Erwin Lynn, Shapolsky Publishers, 1986, ISBN 0933503172
28. From the Ghetto to the Games: Jewish Athletes in Hungary, Andrew Handler, East European Monographs, 1985, ISBN 0880330856
29. The Jew in American Sports, Harold Uriel Ribalow, Meir Z. Ribalow, Edition 4, Hippocrene Books, 1985, ISBN 0882549952
30. Jewish Baseball Stars, Harold Uriel Ribalow, Meir Z. Ribalow, Hippocrene Books, 1984, ISBN 0882548980
31. The Jewish Athlete: A Nostalgic View, Leible Hershfield, s.n., 1980
32. Encyclopedia of Jews in Sports, Bernard Postal, Jesse Silver, Roy Silver, Bloch Pub. Co., 1965

Should nom find the reading to be too solitary, and wish to move around a bit more this summer, I suggest to him that he might consider traveling to visit the following, the existence of which also suggests the notability of the intersection:

1. International Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
2. Jewish Canadian Athletes Hall of Fame
3. U.S. National Jewish Sports Hall of Fame and Museum
4. Michigan Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
5. Jewish Sports Hall of Fame of Western Pennsylvania
6. Jewish Sports Hall of Fame of Northern California
7. Southern California Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
8. Orange County Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
9. Philadelphia Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
10. Rochester Jewish Sports Hall of Fame

--Epeefleche (talk) 04:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - per Arxiloxos and especially Epeefleche --nsaum75^{¡שיחת!‎} 05:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy keep - Nominator could also attend the Maccabiah Games, the Jewish Olympics.Minnowtaur (talk) 05:34, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy keep. The topic(this specific intersection/cross-categorization) is notable (as well established by others here), the entries are notable and verifiably members of the topic, the scope is not arbitrary. The scope might need to be made more explicit, or narrowed, but those are editorial concerns. Indeed there appear to have been productive discussions about scope of both the "Jews" and "in sports" scope on the talkpage, so this is definitely not a hopeless/abandoned dumping ground. DMacks (talk) 10:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep - there are notable Jewish sports organisations and Halls of Fame as well.-MacRusgail (talk) 10:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.